America has two point two million people in prison. If just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
If the system want to take you out of society, they will do it no matter what laws they have to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but they are breaking the lord.
Having to hear those people say that I was guilty of a crime that I did not commit, and then hear my family break down behind me and not be able to do anything about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was.
I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
A lot of times we look and we see something happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said, that could never happen to me, But.
They can.
This is wrongful conviction.
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Today. I have a unusually strong group of guests. And I say group because, first of all, the star of our show, who was on his way to being a star baseball player actually before this insanity happened, is Jimmy Gardner.
Jimmy C.
Gardner shares his story of being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated for almost twenty seven years.
Jimmy Garden was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player, and he was accused of sexual assault in nineteen eighty seven. This case was overturned of investigators spout out the state's expert lied on the witness stand, but his fight for justice is far from over.
Jimmy, Welcome to wrongful Conviction.
Thank you for having me.
Jason Bolden, his attorney, is here. Scott, welcome to ronful Conviction.
Thank you for having us.
And a very unusual occurrence is happening here at Wrongful Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for me and an honor to have you hear your honor because we have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge from Georgia.
So judge welcome, Thank you very much.
So Jimmy, Yes, Now, first of all, let me just contextualize, because obviously you can't see, but Jimmy may well be the handsomest guy we've ever had on the show.
He's six' four and looks like a movie. Star but you were actually a.
Pitcher, yes in The cubs organization is an interesting story, Too BUT i want to go.
Further back than, that it's. Okay so where did you grow? Up how did you grow?
Up how was your life before it really was going to a place that all of, us like, me as a, CHILD i fantasized.
ABOUT i wanted that. LIFE i wanted to play for the for The.
Mets, yes quite, okay and then it turned and then it turned into a horror.
Show but how did it? Start, Yeah i'll take you back to the very. BEGINNINGS i am originally born In, Dawson. Georgia we left WHEN i WAS i say, Two my mother says three years, old So i'll go with. Three we left and went To, Tampa. Florida and In Tampa, florida that's WHERE i was raised. AT i went through The Tampa Florida school, System Hillsborough County School. SYSTEM i played sports in The Tampa bay. Area, football, baseball, basketball just a variety of sports.
Where you were starting the other sports as. Well imagine you were a starring. Baseball i'm not gonna say. STAR i Mean i'm gonna be humble and SAY i was playing amongst, great great athletes In, Tampa. FLORIDA i think the best in the world at those. Times in the in the seventies early.
Eighties, yes so you had A i mean your childhood was.
Good, childhood childhood was, Great, Okay, Yeah Tampa. FLORIDA i strongly let people Know i'm from The Bay area and basically what you're seeing today is just representation of EVERYTHING i came up Through Tampa. Florida, coaches my family, members great, aunts great, uncles i, mean, cousins just my entire. Life i've been around nothing but positivity and just total just total acceptance and uplifting of people that were just good. People and That's Tampa. Florida so you chose, baseball, yes
how to go from? There, WELL i got drafted out Of Tampa Baifacational Technico High school in nineteen eighty four by The Chicago. Cubs and it's a little ironic because playing in nineteen seventy, six seventy seven with The Little League, CUBS i told my, coach Coach Zeke god bless his. Soul Coach Zeke Sai jimmy c you are the best in the. World and that was one of his favorite.
Things he tell, guys you're the best in the. World AND i told, HIM i, Said, Coach i'm gonna play for the Real cubs one, day and he, SAID i know you. Will that was in nineteen seventy. Six so in nineteen eighty FOUR i got drafted by The Chicago cubs AND i played minor league with The Chicago cubs for four. Seasons and out of those four, SEASONS i had some good, seasons met some good. Guys played nineteen eighty four With Greg maddox In, Pakeville. Kentucky played With Jamie,
Moarrior Joe. Girardi just a lot of, names a lot of GUYS i played with and had opportunities to just interact with throughout my.
Career and for people who are listening who may not be baseball fans or maybe, young these.
Are legends that we're talking.
About you're just reeling off names that are, like you, know The hall Of, fame one after the. Other so there you are waiting to get the call to go to get get tapped on the shoulder and go to the big, leagues you, know and where The cubs uniform and regular field and the whole, thing and then everything goes horribly wrong in a way that, IS i think
to the average person. Unimaginable, yes and in your. Case it's very clear that what happened to you was deliberate on the part of not just one, person but several people, who for Reasons i'll never, understand just decided that they were going to pin, horrendous inexplicable. Crime yes on, you did you know anything about this. Crime it's a crime that happened In West, virginia.
Right, yes this crime happened in nineteen eighty. SEVEN i was playing for The Charleston wheelers In, Charleston West virginia during the. Season i'm going to say In may the first crime, occurred and then In june the next crime, occurred and the crime was a sexual assault against one white woman In may and another white woman In.
June you left that an important details were talking about at eighty six year old woman and her, daughter, right a sixty year old woman.
Right in one, case eighty something year old woman and her daughter was. Assaulted her mother was beat, up but the woman was. Assaulted in the other, case the woman was about forty something and she was assaulted and beat. Up and this all came about the description that the women gave were that this guy was a light to medium Complexion African american about six foot, tall.
Right and for people listening at, home that wouldn't be a way THAT i would describe.
You.
JIMMY i, Mean jimmy is a dark Skinned African american, man was about six y four and looks. Taller so, yeah the description was pretty. Off and it was a description that was given by more than one. Person and we know descriptions can are not. Perfect the mind is not a. Camera but still that didn't match, up, no.
Sir and during the, SEASON i, mean when these crimes, occurred these horrific crimes, occurred The Charleston Police department was basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from all over the. City there were over one hundred AND i believe one hundred and forty or one hundred Plus African americans male that were rounded up and taken to the police department fingerprinted photos and things of that, order including myself in about six black guys off the baseball. Team all of us
were actually taken to the police department fingerprint. Photoed they told me nothing. Match this was in nineteen eighty. Seven fast forward to nineteen eighty, NINE i was confronted by policemen From Charleston West virginia saying that my prints now. Match, well one print now matches from a crime, scene but it no longer was a thumb. Print it was now a left middle. Fingerprint they just made a mistake on THE i guess the definition of the print or characterizing the.
Print so that's what connects, this, Right, yes so they.
And they said they rechecked my prints and now they matched.
Magically, yes they had the wrong, finger they had the wrong Dest.
What they said at the time that the individuals that were in the department didn't have the knowledge of doing.
Fingerprints, well and that's an interesting. Thing It's.
SCOT i like to turn to you for a second, too because we know that the standards that are maintained for fingerprint analysis are shoddy at, best, right.
Especially in smaller towns across the.
Country The, Cherlston West Virginia Police department or the state police in this, case they had the. Expertise they certainly. Did they just had a bad. Actor the chief zerologists for that, department who had been there for several, years was known within the department to either falsify test results or to be sloppy with his, analysis as well as in his. Testimony so you have the test, results, right they get turned over to the. Prosecutor. Right sometimes they
get challenged by defense council. Experts sometimes they. Don't most offenders don't have enough money to hire an expert to
do that type of critical. Analysis but in this particular case at The State department, lab it would later be found that the chief erroologist was not only, indicted but investigated at the federal level as well as at the state, level and found that he had not, misinterpreted but purposely testified falsely on the stand of at least twenty more in individuals Like, jimmy and then secondly that there was knowledge of others that he worked with that he falsified
test results in order to make the analysis match that the prosecutors used in state court to convict individuals Like Jimmy.
Gardner, Right and That's i'm so glad you're talking.
About this Was Fred, zey right in absolutely, infamous terrible let to talk about a bad. ACTOR i, mean that's too, kind, Right this is a guy who was. Vicious he was deliberately willfully not BECAUSE i think, so not BECAUSE i say, so but because he was convicted of doing. That it was sence to four to twelve years in. Prison that's such a troubling fact, because as you, said what is a jury to?
Do?
Right they may may not be sophisticated. People they're probably not. Scientists you got a guy Like, jimmy Who's i'm guessing you were represented by a public defender at that, Time.
Yes public defunder that was his first, case.
First case out of law.
School, yes, Sir, Wow, okay that's a plot twist. Too so what is either of you, guys or even You Judge,
abrams what is a person to? Do like if you're sitting at home and you're, going, well IF i go on a jury and a guy gets up there AND i don't know if he's lying or, not but there's nobody to tell me any, different how is somebody even supposed to get to the Truth when you have a guy like that who's up there Going i'm accredited from this university AND i went to, this AND i went to, that what's a person to?
Do from my point of, view that's where the pre trial process comes. In that's why we have the adversarial. System if you have a good defense, ATTORNEY i want to step back and speak a couple of steps back Because i've read the filings in this, case BUT i wasn't involved in this. Case but WHEN i look at, it to even get to the point where you put it before the, jury that's why we have all these processes in. Place that's why prosecutors have a duty to
turn over any type of exculpatory. Information the prosecutor's. Office everyone knew about Fred zane before this trial even. Happened so that's a Clear brad that's a Clear brady. Violation and as far AS i know that information was never turned, over you know that yourseroologists has had problems and have the credentials that he's supposed to have if you're going to use. It first of, ALL i was a federal prosecutor at one. POINT i would not have used that.
Information but if you are going to use, it you have a duty to tell the other. Side if your client is telling you they told me that the blood type didn't, match and now it, does then the defense attorney should have investigated. That so when you're talking about how does a jury know what to? Do we do have the system when it works, right when it's not deliberately being. Undermined has these stops in place where that
testimony never should have come. In a jury never should have been confronted with.
That they had no chance of getting it. Right i'm guessing you would probably, say as one of the exon oraigation strong as he, said you, KNOW i would have convicted, me you, know with the evidence that was presented and the lack of defense that my attorney, MOUNTED i would have convicted.
ME i, mean maybe you feel the same way in your.
Case, NO i don't feel that. Way my jury deliberated for four and a half. Days, wow they were out and they'd always come back and say were, deadlocked and in the beginning of that deadlock was in favor of me from, US i guess. Inquiring but that process went on for four and a half.
Days that's got to be four and a half days of absolute. TORTURE i, mean as it.
Was but to hear my attorney, saying you, know this is in our, favor.
And how would he Know he just got out of law school that men.
Day to come back with a decision of guilty on one, case not guilty on the other, case which WAS i believe a compromise verdict was that was. DEVASTATING i mean it even gets worse than. That to add salt to the, INJURY i go back to the county jail and someone has broken into my cell and took my family, photo my pictures of my, family my address book with my. Numbers they've called my lady friend at the, time you, know that was compounded with the guilty verdic that was a rough.
Day oh my. God you.
Know one of the THINGS i harp on and that obsess, on is that we have an unequal system of justice in this.
Country right with.
The presumption though most of us who are on juris or just the average man and, woman we presume the stability of this institution called, justice called, Prosecutors states attorney's, OFFICES us attorney's, offices we presume we rely on it in those systems if they're not reliable or if those systems break, down and they break down more often than we. Think in regard to a case Like Jimmy, garden there was a complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an
even handed. Approach whether it was the, prosecutor whether it was a public defender who first case was a double assault case like, this whether it was the judge who forced him to go to trial before this young defense attorney was. Ready whether it was the prison system and the guards who worked the courtroom who went back and presumably took and stole his, stuff we can't zoom justice
in every. Jurisdiction there are justice systems that are unjust against whether they're, young poor black men or young poor white men were the system doesn't. Work i'm not surprised That Jimmy gardner was convicted because he was convicted before he sat down and even tried the, case because those systems not only, failed but those systems were unjust and hell been on being unjust towards. Him And i'm comfortable saying that as his attorney post conviction on his.
Part where you didn't have a post, release, rather.
You didn't have a hope in, HELL i mean you really between all the FACTORS A scott just pointed, OUT i, mean you were.
Done it's actually a miracle that they deliberated for four and a half.
DAYS i would have been less surprised if you said four and a half hours or forty five, minutes because they were not presented with the facts at. All SO i give some credit to the jury that they actually spent that much, time but that didn't help. YOU i,
mean what an extreme. Right you're going from having all star dreams from the dream LIKE i said that many of, us Most american boys grow up with, right which is playing baseball in the major, leagues which was actually within, reach and all of a, sudden you're going from pretty close to the tippy top to the absolute depths of.
Hell can you describe the? MOMENT i, mean.
You were there for four and a half, days twisting in the. Wind every day you showed up in court wishing hope and praying whatever your thing. Is then you not only get, convicted but sentenced to essentially life, sentence, right one hundred and ten years in, PRISONEL i, mean what was that?
Moment?
LIKE i, Mean i'll back it up a little. Bit WHEN i first arrived Into, Charleston West. VIRGINIA i can still recall all the guys in the, jail says telling. Me they called Me. Florida they, Said. Florida you can't win. Here you just don't go to trial and win. Here And i'm telling the Guys i'm not guilty of these. Crimes. Man they, said, man but you can't. Win you don't win In Charleston West. Virginia and at this, Time i'm knowing THAT i did not do these, crimes AND i
don't have that worry that you guys are talking. About you guys are talking.
About you.
KNOW i had the prosecution offer ten years to, me and my lawyer, said he, said Mister, garden this is the best deal that you will ever. Get these are ten years for these type of. Charges they, said you go to, trial you'll get ten times. This he, said you'll get beyond. That he, said this is the best. Deal he tried everything to get me to take a. DEAL i, SAID i didn't do the. Crimes i'm not
guilty of these. Crimes i'm not pleading guilty to. Anything and those ten years turned into one hundred and ten years ONCE i was. Convicted and going through that process UNTIL i was actually convicted AND i heard the jury say, GUILTY i did not think THAT i would be found. Guilty that's what made it such a shock going, back, because AS i, say the attorney's telling, me the longer they stay, out this is excellent for. Us you, know this is. Excellent they can't come to an agreement and
the judge steady sends them. Back you gotta go. Back they, said we, judge we're. Dead we're at a position we can't move. Forward you gotta go. Back how long is a? Trial probably a, week and in the END i was actually convicted and sent it to one hundred and ten, years which was a, shocker to say the.
Least to go from that and to come to where you are, now how did you manage to bounce?
Back how did you manage to? Persevere how did you manage to?
FIGHT i, mean it's a, process and that's not a process that's done. Overnight at that, point AFTER i was CON i MEAN i was in, shock BUT i knew in my MIND i was in for a. FIGHT i knew that there's no time for crying and laying. Down that's just the individual THAT i am and my. Upbringing you, know it's not time to really cry and. SULK i know it's time to fight for my. Life AND i
GUESS i had been bred for this. Adversity adversity is something That i've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire. Life and this guilty, verdict this guilty, verdict was a slam to, me BUT i just know it changed my entire. Life the young lady THAT i was dating at the. TIME i had to let her know that our relationship was over and let her know That i'm In, Charleston West virginia with my life basically just taking from, me
AND i gotta. Fight SO i ended a relationship in nineteen eighty well nineteen ninety that began in nineteen eighty, three and that was a difficult, decision BUT i just ended that BECAUSE i knew Now i'm In, Charleston West, virginia a young man From, Tampa. Florida i'm used to being in a totally different environment and Now I'm, Charleston West, virginia where it's ninety eight percent white In West virginia and two percent black at that, time which was that was major to. Me BUT i have to put in
my mind this is live or. Die SO i can still recall in the courtroom telling my mother and my, grandmother don't. Cry you, Know i'm telling don't. Cry do not let them see you. Cry don't show. Tears i'm not showing tears at this. Moment this is a time THAT i must be, strong AND i wanted them to be, strong SO i just remained strong for. Them mostly of, course WHEN i got back to the, CELL i had to let it. Out but you, KNOW i, mean it's almost. Indescribable it.
IS i, mean it's impossible for any of us to understand. It so you end up going to maximum security prison In West.
Virginia, yes which prison did they send you? To and how violent was?
It even among maximum security, prisons there are some that are more chaotic and more.
Violent so what was your.
Experience, well WHEN i first went into The West virginia prison, SYSTEM i went to The West Virginia penitentiary In, Moundsville West, virginia and this penitentiary was actually declared unlivable at the. TIME i guess they were in the process of closing the prison. Down.
Unlivable that's an interesting, word.
Yeah because it had been deemed just horrible the conditions and. Everything AND i still remember the DAY i arrived at the prison and ALL i could do was just kind of stand back on the wall and look at the different faces of. INDIVIDUALS i, Mean I'm i'm From, Tampa. Florida i'm in an ENVIRONMENT i know no, One and you have, skinheads arian, brotherhoods motorcycle, games, cluecutsklant you got a number of gangs within this. Prison and it may have been out of fifteen hundred, prisoners it may have
been a hundred black, guys may. NOT i don't even think it was one hundred black. Guys it was a different. World it was a, very very different. World the majority of the black guys, WERE i musta, say a little subservient to a degree because they didn't want any. Trouble you, know it was certain hits being sent out on. INDIVIDUALS i mean it was a actual. Hits oh, yeah oh. Sure and it was just a completely different world for me at that. Time and my first objective WAS i
gotta get to the law. LIBRARY i gotta learn this. Law, UNFORTUNATELY i was encountered by an individual that ultimately led to me going to lock up for a little. Bit SO i spent a few years in lock up over an INCIDENT i don't choose to speak about, today but it was a fight that turned into a little bit. More and next thing you, Know i'm on lock up for a period of. Years and what is that lock up is punter, segregation, right and on punter segregation In,
Moundsville West Virginia. Penitentiary it's worse than the mainline population it was pretty. Rough you had officers that had. Shotguns there was a couple of shotguns on every. Section it seems like shotgun, here shotgun over, here, shotgun, shotgun, Shotgun and you're on the inside and it's just all this this, steel these little. CAGES i can touch all four walls by just reaching out and touching the walls from north
to southeast to. West and the sale was that little with the little, sink toilet and the, bed AND i stayed over there for a period of, time and that gave me an opportunity to really hone in on WHO i was and WHO i. AM i started, READING i started. STUDYING i made my way to the law library versus going out to work. Out you have an, option you can work, out or you can go to the law. Library so my law library time started about two or three in the, morning SO i would go to the law.
Library and it's ironic that one of The Arian brotherhood, guys he taught me how to, shepherdize taught me how to go in and read all different cases and familiarize myself with the legal. Process he really helped me gain a foundation in. Law on lock.
Up that's that for a, second that's kind of.
Amazing that Was that was my first. Encounter AND i always tell, people you, Know i'm indebted to this, guy.
An arian brotherhood guy teaching one of the few black guys the maximum security prison In West virginia about the law is something worth spending a moment.
ON i, mean this Is do you remember this guy's, name.
Sure, Sure Joker Marcus. Cockrum we became the best of. Friends from not knowing anything to he taking the time out to go over with me in this law library about similar, cases reading up on, this understanding the different writs and, filings and you, KNOW i, mean it was. Priceless AND i can still hear him, saying you will not do a lot of time on this because this is. Crazy your case will be one of the biggest cases
in the state Of West. Virginia and all he used to talk about, was, man they're gonna pay you so much. Money that was what he was. Saying and we actually we studied so much and we really became good. Friends behind that.
Was he still.
In he's still.
In so you were moved around to a few different.
Presents let me, see From Moundsville Western. Penitentiary we left there in nineteen ninety, five they closed the prison. Down SO i Left Moundsville Western penitentiary In march of nineteen ninety five AND i went To Mount Olive Correctional complex in Mount, Olive West. VIRGINIA i stayed At Mount Olive Correctional complex for a period OF i don't, know maybe, TWO i don't, know seventeen, sixteen seventeen, years BECAUSE i Left Mount olive in two thousand and eleven AND i
went To Huttonsville Correctional. CENTER i Left huttonsville and went To Northern Correctional. Facility THEN i went To Northern Correctional. Center THEN i came back To Mount Olive Correctional complex BEFORE i was, released and that was in twenty. SIXTEEN i, mean.
You really had a tour of the worst places in sure that anyone can. Imagine let's take the twenty seven years you were. Incarcerated what was the worst thing that you saw that happened in all that.
TIME i, mean.
It's a lot of. Worse the worst happened At. Moundsville that was the. WORST i go back to the winter of nineteen ninety three In moundsville on. Lockup i've never been that cold in my. Life all the windows in lockup are knocked. Out and this was prior to an incident that happened in nineteen eighty. Six it was a riot there in nineteen eighty six and the windows were never.
Replaced what, Yes so all of these windows are knocked, out And i'm on the fourth, TIER i, believe on, lockup and the snow is just blowing in and it's just. COLD i got all the CLOTHES i, GOT i got all my clothes. On i'm so cold THAT i don't get up out of bed to eat for a few. DAYS i remember writing in my, journal this is the first TIME i ate oat. MEAL i was so hungry with you. KNOW i got up after like day two or three and ate oat. Meal that was. It but
it was so cold that the toilet was literally. Ice in order for me to use the, facility to use the, RESTROOM i had to break the ice with my. Shank i'd used my, knife my shank to break the ice in order to use the. TOILET i had never been that cold in my. Life AND i, pitched AND i pitched In, Wisconsin, Appleton, wisconsin right off Of Lake, michigan AND i remember being cold off of That, Lake, michigan AND i thought that was the, coldest but UNTIL i
went To, Moundsville West virginia that nineteen ninety three. Winter it was so. COLD i kept myself warm by talking and. Yelling just it was. Torture and you gotta try. To you gotta try, TO i, guess yell and keep, moving get to stay. Warm, yeah that was pretty. Rough that was the roughest. Time and then on top of, THAT i, mean there's stabbings over there every every, day if not every other. Day there's so many, gangs there's so many hits being sent out in this in this little, area
and you got stabbings going. On you have the officers using the pump. Shotguns i'm still hearing the click. Boom that's that's that's the sound shooting. Guys they'll make that, warning they say they make a warning, shot but they'll actually shoot the buck shots into the. AREA i still remember the guy, saying the next one will get. YOU i won't miss with the next. One the ring from that shotgun going, off And i'm crawling on the, ground just crawling to try to get away from, this this this,
situation because you're not expecting nothing like. That to, happen shooting going on with then lock. UP i, mean but the stablings are happening so so, frequent and the officers are shooting to stop the stab MEANS i mean not justifying, it but it was just Mad lands to. Me i'm, Like i'm in a, crazy crazy. Spot SO i had to take my whole psyche to another. LEVEL i am in survival. Mode i'm gonna make it out of. HERE i still remember That i'm gonna make it out of.
Here i'm saying, Myself i'm writing this, Down i'm gonna make it out of. Here i'm not going to succumb to. This and you, KNOW i had that in my writing and my, journal BUT i kept myself, active you, know and that's WHEN i would go to the library AND i come, back you, know even While i'm studying the law and getting all the INFORMATION i, CAN i started reading a lot of different. Books i'm reading up On, Catholicism, Buddhism, Rostafarianism, Islam,
christianity The Bob Da. Vita i'm reading EVERYTHING i can read and understand in different. Faiths And i'm also at this time doing all my other. Readings you, KNOW i always mentioned Doctor Victor frankle's Book Man search For, Meaning AND i always Mentioned James James allen as a man Thinking i'm just reading so much And i'm taking time out of my day to read. This reading was, like this is getting me through the.
Day you're, freezing you're, starving and you're trying to avoid being stabbed and. Shot everything else going, OKAY i, MEAN.
I, mean And i'll say, THIS i, mean it was a very it was very it was very racist in this in this. Prison so you never know when a hit may come your, way when when someone may come you and you don't have to even be the subject of. Intent you don't have to be that. Person you don't even know the. Person i'll never forget the one guy next to, me he wouldn't come out of the. Cell you, know it's guys that wouldn't come out and wouldn't go to shower and wouldn't come out of that. Cell and
it's okay with the. Officers you used to stay in the, sell but it's guys that would not come out AND i AND i would go to. THEM i was, like, hey come on out to, sale come to the. Shower you have a showered, today you have a shower in a, week come on out of, there and you, know guys would literally, Say i'm not coming out there to be. Killed.
Gudge let me ask, you BECAUSE i think there's something in The constitution about cruel and unusual, punishment how does this go on the scenario That jimmy is. Describing it must be what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote.
That, unfortunately this is a reality of the country we live in. Now, legally there would be a great uproar if we found or somebody made a big deal about how some of our elderly are being treated and assisted living. Homes BUT i guarantee you it would be a different situation where the law would react very differently for someone on the outside than they do when we're dealing with prisoners who sometimes we forget are still. Citizens they are Still,
Americans they're still entitled to all of their constitutional. Rights and, so to answer the, question not, passionately but, legally there is a mechanism to address. That but is it, ADEQUATE i would say, no.
The scenario That jimmy's describing in most, STATES i think if you treated your.
Dog that, way go to, jail you go to. Jail you can't leave your.
Dog in a tiny enclosure in freezing temperature sub freezing. Temperatures it's.
Unconstable AND i, MEAN i will, say because of WHAT i, DO i have to, believe AND i do believe that there is a possibility of. Justice so this prison That jimmy was in was because of a legal case. Condemned now it was condemned six years before they closed, it but legally there was a case saying you cannot house people in these. Conditions what happens with the administration after
that decision comes down is something entirely. Different SO i would certainly agree the laws to protect our animals are oftentime more stringent and more closely followed than we do to protect our brothers and. Sisters and that is a very big problem in this.
Country it's so.
Nuts right one, day you're just a person walking around the street with your, Rights but as soon as that switch goes off and you're caught up in the criminal justice, system you're not treated as a human being.
Anymore that's got to, Change and when.
We look at, it even in the most self serving, way for the most, part people are going to get out of prison at some. Point they're going to be in our, neighborhoods they're going to be in the, supermarkets they're going to be back in, society and if we have treated them as subhuman for however long they're, there we are going to reap the consequences of how they're
going to react when they come. Out one of the THINGS i admire most About jimmy is that he'll say that even though he was in, jail his mind was never.
There, well, unusual he is an unusual.
Person but we really do have to step back and look at how we're treating. People even if you don't, care even if you did something bad AND i don't care about, you be selfish and understand that for the most, part they're going to come back out and then you're going to have.
To deal with.
It that's why we're doing re and treat work with people needing, jobs needing, housing all of these. Things we have to keep in mind that we are all part of the same society and we've all got live in.
It we need to do, Better we need to do. Better we need to treat our people as. People, So, jimmy how did it? Transpire how'd you? Rebound how did you get. Out what was that moment like when you got?
OUT i, MEAN i was. OVERJOYED i was released through the federal. COURTS i spent forty six months in federal court on top of a twenty three year in order to delay in state. Court and my mother Is Gladys. Gardner you, know my mom's a, very very praying, woman and she she has. VISIONS i was waiting up to six maybe five months at the, time and my mom, said, WELL i went in the closet and you're coming. Home you be getting ready to get your, rule and you're
coming home this. Week she, says so go ahead and pack up. Everything AND i, said, Okay. MOM i was talking to her That, sunday AND i got the call On friday from my attorney telling me that the case had been, overturned conviction, vacated and either set for retrial or. Release AND i call and let my mother know. That That, FRIDAY i, Said, MAMA i got the, ruling but she already saw.
It she saw a. Vision.
Yeah LIKE i, said my mother's very very, praying very very prayer and. Spiritual AND i had been preparing For april, first seemed like all my, life every year that would go. BY i. PRAY i, Said, god please let me come home this. Year It's january, first AND i watched that ball drop right here In New. YORK i watched that ball, drop AND i, Say, god let this be my. Year one, Day i'm gonna go and watch that ball. Drop AND i said, that AND i believe that one. Wholeheartedly every,
YEAR i would, Say, god let this be the. Year that's a few days went, by BUT i watched that ball, drop AND i watched that every. Year let this be my. Year AND i go through my years in, prison letting guys Know i'm going home this.
Year well let's go back to, that, though because you actually bumped into a very principled judge who made a very strong ruling and an even stronger statement when he announced that.
Your conviction was being.
Overturned and you must have very special feelings for that. MAN i don't know, him But i'd like to meet him sometimes shoe his. Hand so can you talk about?
That oh YES i, can with great. Pleasure you're speaking about The District Court Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin out The Southern district Of West. VIRGINIA i fouled my case into his. Court In june of twenty twelve And november of twenty,
Thirteen Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin granted my petition and enabled me to come into federal, court which was a miracle BECAUSE i had no, standing no legal, standing AND i also filed under the denial of access to the, court denial of equal protection and due, process which aren't you, know issues that aren't cognizable in federal. Court you, know it has to be an issue dealing with constitution violation
that emanated from your. Trial So i'm going in already knowing, this AND i tell YOU i placed one of my petitions into my filing BECAUSE i was asked to do that by a guy by the name of Courtnel. Day so he, said, man you got so many petitions you file in, court, man just go ahead and throw one. In let them know you have. Something SO i did, that But Judge goodwin denied my, petition but he granted me into federal court because of my exhibit of one
of my state court. Petitions and at the end of the, Day Judge goodwin ruled THAT i had shown THAT i had issues that may want some relief in federal. Court so he's gonna give me that opportunity to present my petition to the court and get my case hurt for the first, time get my case reviewed for the first. Time this is the first time REVIEW i went in federal court under a d novo, review my first time
getting a review in twenty four, years which was. Remarkable But Judge goodwin stated in his opinion THAT i had been in legal purgatory and that it had been a total miscarriage of, justice which were some very strong, words very strong. Words AND i just know that in order For Judge goodwin to have the courage to do that in the state Of West, virginia that took so much, Courage that took so MUCH i, MEAN i can't even
express it to the. Audience and Within Judge goodwin's, OPINION i, mean he's right across the, hall even the same city as the state judge that sends me to one hundred and ten years and they're good. Friends.
Wow and let me just read, something Because Judge holliday said That zane's That i'm quoting pattern and practice of misconduct completely undermined the validity and reliability of any forensic work he performed or, reported and that as a matter of, law any testimonial or documentary evidence offered By zane at any time in any criminal prosecution should be deemed, invalid, unreliable and inadmissible in determining whether to award a new
trial in any subsequent habeas corpus preceding bam. Right SO i can ask the, judge it sounds to me like the judge was.
Pissed that was from The Supreme court Of West, virginia and, yes he was very, upset and that should have formed the basis for an immediate, rehearing if not. Released that, DECISION i believe came out in ninety.
Three november of nineteen ninety, Three so that.
Ruling came out out saying that every person who had been prosecuted by or convicted by because of testimony From zay should get a. Rehearing, JIMMY i think was granted four more than.
One of the real injustices.
Here isn't Just zaane's deplorable and illegal. Behavior is that once That Supreme court did its investigation and ordered a new trial for not Just, jimmy but anyone who had been convicted based On zane's, evidence they either were going to be released or they would have to be, retried and the local prosecutors and these jurisdictions had to determine which one it was going to. Be the local prosecutors In jimmy's case decided that they were going to retry
him rightfully or. Wrongfully but then the trial judge in this, case when he would file his, petitions and you say filed,
FOUR i think he filed more than. That but there were several state habeas corporate petitions file pursuing to The Supreme court, decision the State Supreme court, decision and this particular judge refused to give him a, hearing so he languished for ten to fifteen, years twenty Years i'm sorry forgive me twenty years in a state of legal, purgatory essentially because he could not go to the federal system until his state case or state habeas case had been
tried or. Heard and for twenty years they didn't hear it or try, it and so he. Languished he finally filed something in federal court out of, desperation and this, judge as federal, judge took it up despite the standing, issues because how abhorrent the state system had treated. Him he had never had a. Hearing so we talked about those who were who contributed mightily to his twenty seven year.
Incarceration it just wasn't the state police And. Zaying it was also that you did at the state level that worked purposely to ensure that he would be in legal purgatory for twenty. Years so twenty of the twenty seven, years even After zain was found, out it was the system and the court system that kept him. There and so when you talk about making him, whole it's not About,
zayn just About zayn in the State police. Department it's the state judiciary system and the prosecutors who knew he was in, prison knew he was, suffering knew they were on the court order to give him a, hearing and knew that they weren't giving him.
That it really is.
Abhorrent and so the fact of the matter, is but for this federal district court judge who found a way legally to rule right and to direct them to give him a new hearing or to let him, go because now we're in with a federal court judge who's got a lifetime appointment and says let him go by some date certain or retrying even after all of, that the same state, prosecutors the same state police offered or decided to retry him, again and on the eve of, trial
on the day of, trial approached the bench and decided they weren't going to retry him allegedly because of lost witnesses or lost memory of. Witnesses that wasn't the. Case they couldn't prove the case twenty seven years. Ago they couldn't prove it twenty seven years. Later the bottom line proposition because anything That zain had, touched and anything that the state lab and those working With zain had touched was not. Credible and whether you had the witness or,
not it was the tainted evidence that ultimately convicted. Him and that's the second tragedy of his.
Incarceration it is absolutely fucking nuts That zain was exposed and actually indicted in nineteen ninety, three but.
He had gone To texas, right had gotten fired from the position In, texas and when he came, back the state police and had welcomed him back despite all the findings against. Him he worked as a consultant to them and convicted other people on bad evidence when he returned.
Right powerful bad evidence, TOO i mean because, again hard to argue with the guy that's up, there but talking science that people may or may not even unders, well people can't challenge.
IT i often wondered With jimmy and even the prosecution on the other, side now That i'm involved in the case post his, release as who could find the motivation to wrongfully convict hundreds of innocent people based on bad, analysis poor, analysis or just perd your testimony on a repetitive basis a, practice a part and practice of wrongfully convicting.
People what motivates a human being in law? Enforcement who most of them swear to The constitution and to the, flag and where the flag on their sleeves on their, shoulders right to wrongfully convict and criminally through criminal kinds convict innocent? People where does that come? From what manner of man is?
That?
Yeah and of course we know that in every one of these cases in Which zane and others like him have, deliberately, willfully wrongfully testified against people Like jimmy or they knew were, innocent in every one of those, cases the actual perpetrator remain free to go and go and commit.
Other whole another.
Bucket it's a whole other, bucket but it's an inescapable. Truth but you, KNOW i want to talk about the good. Stuff when you actually were let, free did you walk out of the courtroom like in the movies into the?
Sunlight is that what?
Happened it was On april, first after the, hearing and this hearing is to decide whether or Not i'm going to be retried or. Released And Judge Joanna, Tabbot i'm in her, courtroom and like my, Attorney Scott bolden, said the state decided they were going to. Retry So Judge Joanna tabbot set a bond in my. Case and she asked my, mother Miss, gardner can you please stand and my mother stood up and my mother told her, yes. Ma'am she, said can you tell me what kind of
bond can you? Make and my mom, SAID i THINK i can make ten thousand. Dollars And Judge, tabot you, know which is one of the greatest judges In West virginia right now her And Judge JOSEPH. R goodmanin federal. Judge she, said, well the bond is said at ten. Thousand she, said Missus, gardner take him home with. You take him, home and my, mother my Sister's Barbara, Gardner, Harrison Tracy, simms my Brother Eric, gardner my other, brothers my Friend Sheila, lewis so many other, people my nephews
and you, know my. Nieces it's so many people waiting on me to walk out of that. JAIL i walked out of that jail When april, first to the arms of my, family and that moment was so. Exhilarating you, know all of. Us we just met with a big group hug AND i embraced everyone and we shared a lot of tears of. Joy of, course the news reporters, like, well you, know they're seeking to retry Mister. Gardner in my,
MIND i already knew this was, over this was. Over and my mother said they can do whatever they want to try this and that she said this is. Over she, said My god told me this is. Over AND i knew it was. Over SO i embraced my. Family we. Hugged, Man we went we went out to, eat we went to the hotel and, partied AND i mean we. Partied. Man you can't put you can't define, it words can't explain.
IT i couldn't even imagine so being. WILD a crazy thing happened just a couple of months, ago because you've been out now for about twenty two.
Months what was the date of the formal Exonerate september, seventh twenty.
Sixteen so there was another mile stone right that you knew it was, coming but it still had to be a great. Feeling, yes, sir you were telling me earlier about a crazy story in the best possible. Way do you want to talk about? That?
OKAY i would just say. This you, know Since i've came, Home i've had the opportunity to. SPEAK i do my own speaking. Now I'M Jc Gardner. SPEAKS i have A Gardener house incorporated In, Beckley West. Virginia that house is a house for returning, citizens giving men opportunities to have, housing, clothing. Food this is going to get off the ground pretty.
Soon i'm in the process of renovating it. Now And i've been speaking and been fortunate to meet so many people and attend so many different, Universities Congressional Black call because IT'S i, mean it's just been, phenomenal phenomenal to
say the, least the opportunities That i've. Had but last YEAR i happened to Meet Judge Leslie abrams in All, Benny georgia at A Georgia Black Women lawyers associating a party or something like, that AND i just happened to Meet leslie and we, TALKED i don't, know maybe, hours maybe, hours so so it was an extended time and it was at that time THAT i realized it was it was something that that was really gravitating me toward. Her and you, KNOW i felt LIKE i had found WHAT
i was looking. For and Today leslie AND i are a. COUPLE i, mean my blessings have Been it's like a river.
Flowing you found love in the form of the judge who happens to be sitting right next to me right. Now what a like an amazing circle now, RIGHT i, mean talk about the criminal justice system giving. BACK i, mean you, know it's like for somebody who has been as wrong as you can, be it's an amazing it's an, amazing amazing and, wonderful beautiful part of the. Story and you're a lucky, man so very, fortunate the luckiest of the unluckiest people THAT i.
Know i'll, Say i'll say, This, Jason i've been blessed beyond. IMAGINATION i can't even describe. It i've met nothing but great people Since i've been. Home it's almost like everything you encounter is. Gold everything THAT i have encountered since my time of being home has been good for. Me i'm in a situation WHERE i Know i've been blessed beyond imagination and beyond the normal human being can be
blessed their entire. Lives i'm fortunate to have a great attorney such As Scott bold and sitting next to, Me i'm fortunate to have a great lady in my, life The Honorable Judge Leslie. Abrams i'm blessed my mother and father are still. Here my sisters and brothers are still on this earth with. Me i'm in the presence of my nieces and nephews and my family members all the. Time i am blessed beyond, comparison And i'm blessed with. Health to come out Of, Mountsville West Virginia penitentiary and
to go Into mount all The Correctional. Complex to come out of this situation now for twenty seven years and be healthy, mentally, physically and spiritually is beyond a blessing the. Miracle NOW i am in the process of taking some getting some psychiatric help as far as because you can't
go in water and not expect to get. Wet SO i do have to take some classes getting myself reacclimated, back get some psychiatric help in that, regard just going through the, process sharing my bad times perceived with individuals with a, psychiatrist being in a position to, say, Hey i'm not at any level trying to Say i'm totally unblemished or unharmed by this, process because you. Can't you can't jump in water and not get. Wet SO i
recognize That i'm blessed beyond. Majority but in the position THAT i am, today my position is to be able to tell my story to people and let them, know, hey it's not how you, start it's how you, finish and it's not what you go through in, life it's how you deal with what you go through in, life
because we all go through. Something everybody got a, story AND i tell people that your story is just as important as my, story but it's how you deal with it and how you understand that you can only get through it by really tapping into your higher power and understanding that it's beyond. YOU i tell people every day they say why did this? Happen to, you it's not even about. Me it's not even about, me it's beyond. Me it's a level of me being placed on this.
Earth not to play, baseball, basketball football under, that but to be an, activist an individual that's against. Injustice to share my story with, people hoping THAT i can give them the inspiration and motivation to know that whatever you going through in, life you can come out of it and you can be you can be in the best position of your life if you truly believe in your higher.
Power AND i stress that to tell, People, look if you can go through, it whatever you're going, Through god will not place the burden upon you greater than you can. Handle so no going. In if you're going through, it you can handle. It it's, purposeful.
You.
Know usually on the, SHOW i opened up the mic to the featured guest for closing.
THOUGHTS i feel like you actually right out of my. Mouth, yeah and that was.
Amazing, So, jimmy how do people if they want to book, you if they want to donate to your new center that you're, Building.
Gardener house in corporate www dot jcgardner speaks dot. Com i'm On twitter AT jc Gardener speaks And i'm Also instagram J. C gardner, speaks.
You got that, Handle.
I'm gonna, Yeah i'm going to follow you AND i hope other people will. Too And, scott how do people reach you if they are in need of your?
Services Ape Bolden boldn at reidre Ed smith dot com with the law firm Of Reed. SMITH i would argue that these are very difficult. Cases they take a long, time and then there's the second story of recovery of how do you make someone Like Jimmy gardner hole not just emotionally or, physically or practically or, legally but. Financially he's lost twenty seven years of his. Life what is his life worth after twenty seven years of being in?
Prison be welcome to look at other. CASES i can tell You i'm super focused On jimmy's, case, though because we have a couple of lawsuits pending In West. Virginia so despite all of this and all the, reports the state Of West virginia continues to. Fight now they're free to, fight obviously these are civil, lawsuits but given the overwhelming evidence and even the judicial reports that confirm this type of a really abhorrent, behavior and not just by the
state lab but also by individuals in the criminal justice. System. There our hope and our goal is that we will resolved those cases so he can move on completely away from those twenty seven. Years right now we're still fighting.
Though and then, LASTLY i do also like to have our other featured guests share any last, thoughts anything that you want to get off your, chest or anything you want to tell the.
Audience Judge, WELL i.
Would say that one of my passions WHEN i was a federal, PROSECUTOR i was AN ausa in THE Us Attorney's office In. ATLANTA i was hired By Sally, yates And Sally ates always talked about doing, justice but she talked about it as a three legged, stool and one of those legs it was, enforcement, prosecution but it was also prevention and re. Entry she was very adamant about that.
NIGHT i hope that if anything comes out of. This one of the things that WHEN i Met, jimmy he said we talked for a very long time, time and part of that was talking about one how someone could go through that experience and come out with the spirit that he has come out, with but also what he was. Doing we talked About Gardner, house about how he was
trying to help other people re enter into. SOCIETY i was the community outreach coordinator for THE Us Attorney's office a period during my time, there AND i did re entry. WORK i continue to do re entry work as a judge BECAUSE i think it's, very very important for us to give returning citizens an. Opportunity not everybody has a family that's going to be standing outside when they come. Home not everybody is going to have a home to go,
to food to, eat even understand the. Resources jimmy is extremely, educated but the majority of people THAT i see in my court have not graduated from high. School would not be able to navigate the system as he. Did because it hasn't been. Said but understand the petition that got him. Out he, wrote he had thirteen lawyers over the. Years the only one to file that federal writ was, him
and he did it. Himself not everybody has that. Opportunity and, so if, anything WHAT i would, say and is the most important thing THAT i think can come, out is that people understand that these are our brothers and sisters when they went into, prison whether rightfully or wrongfully, convicted and there are our brothers and sisters when they come. Out one of the, reasons And jimmy AND i talk about.
Faith i'm the daughter of Two United methodist. Ministers my father ran close prison ministries WHEN i was a, child SO i spent a good deal of time in. JAIL i spent several birthdays in. Jail and one THING i was always taught is not your, circumstances it's how you deal with those. Circumstances and one of the things that really has drawn me To jimmy IS i have been inordinately blessed in my. LIFE i can't imagine confronting what he's confronted and doing it with the grace.
That he has done it with amen to, that.
And SO i just, say if anyone is, listening please reach, out look at what opportunities for re entry are there in your, communities and try to get, involved because we are all part of the society and we've got to figure out how to make us all.
One As leslie, SAID i went through thirteen attorneys throughout a twenty about a twenty three year. PERIOD i went through thirteen attorneys that never foul a habit's corpus or on my, behalf AND i strongly suggest the people to have legal representation before you encounter any type of situation that that is similar to mine or just like. Mine we have life, insurance we got home, insurance car, insurance
and these. Insurance these insurances are something that we're paying for prior to us getting involved in an, accident or prior to us, dying or prior to us having something happened to our home or. Something SO i am A Legal Shield. Associate you can pay a fee that will cover you and if you're getting involved in any type of, accidents be, covered having an attorney already on, standby then have access to your. Attorney twenty four to seven questions
twenty four to, Seven i'm. COVERED i want you to be. Covered and It's Legal Shield associate dot com Slash JIMMY. C gardner and you can actually reach me and go on and sign up right now and be.
Covered don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your.
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To The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram
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