#047 Jason Flom with Jason Strong

able to do anything about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was. I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. A lot of times we look and we see something happened to somebody, and that's the first thing we said, that could never happen to me, But they can. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flam This is the opening episode of season five, and I'm absolutely honored to have today's guest Jason Strong. Jason,

welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on. I'm honored to be here. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm really happy you're here. For a number of reasons. I'm sorry, I had to go through this, so Jason, before all this happened and your life was turned really into a living hell for fifteen and a half years, how is your life? You grew up in Illinois, right, Uh now? Actually, I spent most of my life in Texas.

I was born in Arizona, lived in Texas most of my life, and uh, I moved to Illinois to try to actually moved to Wisconsin first with my grandparents to try to get a different start because I was kind of on a bad road doing drugs, drinking, acting up. So eventually I moved to Illinois and with some friends and then I got my own place there. But uh, I mean I never really did change. I still kind

of lived like a rock star, you know. I was working in an adult bookstore, did a lot of drinking and partying and drugs, and but I mean, at the end of the day, I was still a good person. I mean, I wasn't, you know, robbing people. I wasn't killing people. I wasn't you know, in any gangs or doing anything ridiculous. You weren't hurting anybody than yourself exactly exactly. But I mean I was, you know, living in the fast life, and I wasn't thinking about it, you know.

So it's just one of those things that some people do that when they're young, you know. And I was living like a rock star, but I wasn't a rock star. But that being said, so you're you're you're hanging around trying to figure it out. How old were you at this time, twenty four? So yeah, so you're you're you're getting you know. I mean it's funny because I think a lot of people in their mid twenties start to figure out what it is that they really do. And

I know for me it's true. That's when I sobered up and started, you know, trying to really build my my life up instead of down. But before I got locked up. So I got locked up in December of before that happened, I mean, I I was trying to think about what do I want to do? You know. I was considering going back to school and pursuing something in the world of art. You know, I don't I didn't really know exactly what, but I may I wanted to do something with art. I've always been creative, so

but I never got that opportunity. Uh, it was taken from me by the fact that I got arrested for this crime. And and that's a crazy story. I mean, it was your misfortune. You didn't know it at the time, but you were living in a county that turns out to have the highest number of wrongful convictions in Illinois, which is one of the states that has the highest number of rngful convictions. But other than Chicago, this area

that you lived in was was a bad spot. It was a hotbed for police misconduct and wrongful convictions as a result. So there you are knocking around trying to figure it out, you know, having your party in times, whatever you're doing, and this comes out of the blue, right. Yeah, it was December. I was hanging out with my girlfriend and her friend, you know, we were smoking a bowl, having a few beers, and I get a knock at the door, thinking it's my buddy just coming over to

hang out. Open a door. It's a bunch of cops standing there with guns drawn, and they push into my room, throw me down on my bed, handcuffed me, and the nightmare began. Did they tell you what they were arresting you for? No, But I had a I had a clue because they had been around earlier. That day asking people if they seen anything or knew anything. So, I mean I had a little bit of a clue, but it still threw me because, I mean, I had nothing to do with this crime. So I didn't understand why

this was happening. I was confused. I was scared. But when you say they were asking did you see anything to you know anything about? What? Was it a specific crime that they were asking about. Yeah, they had discovered a Jane Doe body and the Lake County four is Preserve and so on December ninth, this body was found and apparently she had been badly beaten and tortured and you know, suffered a really bad death and blunt force trauma was the cause of death. And that was on

December nine. Around December, there was a prostitute sting in the area where I lived. I lived next door to the bookstore that I worked at, the adult bookstore. So I had thought that, you know, this woman was a prostitute, and I told her, you know, you can't be doing this around here. You know, I don't want to have to call the cops on you, you know, just go

back to your room and and keep it cool. And uh, later on I came out and she was still doing that, and that's when I first met Jeremy Tweety, who would later become my co defendant. So that night I walked up to him and I said, Hey, how long has this woman been out here? Do you know? He said she'd been out there a while. She looks like she was crying, So I thought maybe she had a pimp

or something that was forcing her to do this. So I struck up a conversation with asking if there was anything I could do to help whatever, because I didn't want to have this going on, and I didn't want to see her hurt either, And we talked for a little while, uh, I mean, even to the extent that we asked about her kids and you know, why didn't

she find a better line of work, et cetera. And I eventually went in to my dinner and her and Jeremy tweet He had this conversation that later turns out he apparently allegedly said something to her about, you know, you shouldn't be around here because there was a woman that was killed here recently, and a bunch of people had beat on her and threw her in a van and got rid of her and they used that as an reason to come and arrest him. And then he said that it was me. Now why did he say

it was me? So the cop that arrested him, somehow or another claims that this was an accident, but that his hand got crushed in the car door on the way to the police station, and next thing you know, he's fingering me for the crime. Years later, when he recants, he says that it was because the cops only wanted to talk about me since the moment he stepped into the room. They kept saying, what did Jason Strong do with this crime? What do you know about Jason Strong's

involvement in this crime? And they just kept mentioning me over and over and over to the point where he got the gist of it. They wanted me, So he said that I did it, he saw it happen, and then they came and arrested me. They came and arrested my friend Jason Johnson. What is the what's the thing with the hand in the card door? How does that fit into this? I think I think it's I think

they intimidated him by injuring him. I can't prove that, but I mean I think It's kind of odd that his hand was slammed in the police card door on a way to the police station, and then the next thing you know, he's singing these lives for them. Well, there's there's a second part to this that I can't prove this, but this is my opinion on the matter, as the officer that brought him in actually had it

in for me. So prior to all this happening, this cop had been coming around the bookstore and harassing me for a couple of months and I don't even know why he ever started doing that, but he did. And he wanted me to be a snitch. He wanted me to tell him about drug dealers and different things. And I'm like, man, I don't know nothing. I don't I don't know nothing. I no drug dealers. And uh. He told me if I did not cooperate with him, he

wouldn't make my life a living hell. A few short weeks later, I'm locked up for a murder I didn't commit, and he was the initiating officer that arrested the guy who would become my co defendant, who I didn't even know on the night in question. That's a lot of coincidences. I mean, but I can't prove that he didn't anything. You were a victim of some really terrible misdeeds by the people that were supposed to protect you and everybody else in the community, and that's quite the opposite of

what they did. So it's pretty clear why Tweetye would have implicated you, because he would have implicated it as his grandmother if he had to to make them stop doing whatever it was they were doing to him. Right, and he implicated himself as well. Right. But but he wasn't involved to climb either. No. In fact, he turned out to be actually quite a character. He's a bit

of a pathological liar. Before my trial, I think he had like six or seven different versions of what happened that night, constantly changing, and to the point where at my trial he came up with a new version of events that were different from all the earlier ones. So he would always make changes, And I mean, he just did this for years. He stuck to his life for years. But I think it's it all started because of that

one cop. I can't prove it. That's just my theory, but part of it is going off of also what he told me years later when he recanted, Jeremy tweety about how that's all they wanted to talk about was me, And I'm like, well, why would they be so focused on me? Why me of all the people that they

could have thought about. Well, I mean it sounds like this one officer, you know, had just sort of figured you were going to be a good source of information because you were in sort of a seed area and a seed business, right and you he had it in his head you must have known stuff, and he felt like you were holding out on him, so he decided

to exact his revenge. This ins sane story of yours ultimately ends up with you being held in jail for quite a long time, pending trial and ultimately going to trial. What was that process like? Did you have decent representation? Yeah? I did not have good representation. I had public defenders. I I actually I asked my family over and over to get me a lawyer. I knew I needed a real lawyer because these guys just they weren't gonna cut it. They didn't listen to me. They had their own view

on things. But I didn't know what a lot of my rights were at that time either, And how I could make changes in anything. But we went to trial with them basically handed me over to the jury. They went in and said that my course false confession was actually true, and that I didn't do the crime, but I was there when it happened. That was their defense for me, And I was like, well, that's ridiculous. I didn't do any of this, but that was their strategy,

if you will. They basically handed me over. They screwed me for the execution, so you had no chance. You're literally sitting there watching yourself drowned. So when the time came for me to take the stand, I couldn't take the stand. I would have gone against every single thing they already said. That's unreal. They were looking for the easiest route. Rather than to try to fight my case I prove my innuscence, they took the easiest option for themselves.

It's a very bizarre set of circumstances when you have your advocate actually working against you and you're I mean, I can't imagine you're in this crazy vortex. You've already been through hell, You've been sitting in jail for you know how long are in jail for? Uh? So the trial I believe was in October of two thousands, so almost a year at that point, right, So you're already

dizzy from this experience. I mean anybody would be. And now you're in this crazy cortex and you've got these these adults not even under representing you, but actually working against your best interests for whatever their twisted motives were. Did you know, like, when the jury went out, did you know you were fucked? I had a good feeling it, yeah, that was going to be the case. I mean I still had a tiny bit of hope, you know, that maybe they would figure something out. But now I kind

of had a feeling I was screwed. I mean from the sound of it. I mean even the jury in my case at all, unless they had just some weird intuition. If I was on my jury, I would have convicted me. That's a strong statement. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, there was nothing put forth to defend me and to prove my innocence. No, so there you go. So yeah, so so you It's interesting because a lot of the agonies that have been on the show had held out hope until the very end, but your circumstances

relatively unique. I mean, even with some of the stories we've port of incompetent defense, how long did they deliberate? Oh, it wasn't very long at all, Maybe a couple of hours, but I who know that they were probably having lunch. I mean, who knows what they were doing? It for two whole hours and I don't even know if it was that long. That's how it felt in my head as I was sitting in a cell. Then the moment came, right which can you describe that horrible, horrible moment when

you're basically you must have thought your life was over. Yeah, I uh, that was probably the loneliest day of my life. Um, having to hear those people say that I was guilty of a crime that I did not commit, and not just once, but the judge made each individual one say their verdict, so I had to hear it over and over again, and then hear my family break down behind me, and not be able to do anything about it. Um. I can't describe the crushing weight that was. How did you?

How did you deal with it? How did you come out of it? How did you get here? I am actually in awe of the fortitude that you have. How did you do it if you can even put it into work. Um, yeah, I think I can't. I mean, so after that, after that moment, I mean, I wanted to die like I've never wanted to die before. It was it was terrible. And after we left the courtroom, I asked officer if he could take me to a private solitary cell just so I could, you know, just

break down and decompress. And once I put myself back together and I went back to the general population, I just started doing a lot of thinking and I was angry, I was confused. I didn't know what my next move was going to be. But I I decided to adopt this kind of militaristic mentality, and I turned everything into a war against the state of Illinois. And uh I studied Sun Sue and Julius Caesar and tried to, you know, incorporate these this thinking of how to fight a war.

But I was doing it in the courtroom. The courtrooms were in my battlefields. So I mean I kind of took on that that mentality. Did you have any help, Did you have an appellate lawyer assigned to you or anything like that? Yeah? We, uh So, after I lost, we hired an attorney Jetstone, and uh, he did a post trial motion and then he helped me through my

first appeals, but those didn't pan out. So when we lost him and we couldn't afford him anymore, I became my own attorney and I did it my way, and I threw every single thing I could think about him. I filed my my post conviction petition on my own, which was like seventies something pages long, and I threw every single thing I could think of that was wrong with my case at that courtroom. Ye know, I battled it on my own for a while. I got an a Pellet attorney appointed to me at one point, and

all he did was basically dragged things out. But for the most part, I fought myself and uh until I got Northwestern to get involved and that but that was years and years later. And then talk about that Northwestern Northwestern, Yeah, because I mean, first of all, one of the best schools in the country, and they do amazing work. Absolutely they do. Yeah, I would not be free if it wasn't for them. So I was in the federal court. I was following a federal habeas corpus all on my own,

and there was a procedural issue that came up. Well, let me back up. Before that, I had already been trying to reach out to innocence projects for years. I've been writing them letters and you know, having my family make phone calls. And I had been in touch with Jane Raley at Northwestern and we've you know, been kind of back and forth and everything, but she couldn't take on the case at the time, but we still communicated.

So when I got to federal court, I don't know if Judge Kennelly saw something in my case or what, but he called Tomas Garrity, the director of the clinic at Northwestern, personally, and asked him to look at my case. And it was just for a procedural issue, but once Tom looked at everything, he realized there was more to it,

and Northwestern decided to take my case on full. All the way that team grew over the years, you know, because they have students, and three of the students graduated went on to big law firms and brought their law firms in. So I had Northwestern, Winston and Strown and Captain Mute and Rosenman all supporting my fight. So, you I mean, at least in terms of your legal representation. You really went from the bottom to the top. Absolutely. I mean you went from guys who sold you down

the river to like an army, a legal army. And and by the way, that happened for a very specific reason, which is that you found something that very few people could find in your situation. I don't know where you got it from, but where I think a normal person would have curled up in a corner and collapsed or you know, done, calmed themselves like you talked about doing

or whatever. You didn't stop, and you maintained faith in the system even though the system had totally let you down and turned on you, you know, which is remarkable. I keep coming back to that. And then as a result, you end up with this powerhouse, a sort of a power trio of of advocates, right, the two law firms, plus the Innocence Project at Northwestern, which you know, as I said, their reputation is amazing. So so then things are turning in your direction. But you've been in now

for quite some time. So around the time they took over, I had been in about seven and a half eight years. It was shortly after we learned about the identity of the victim. So, yeah, it was. I've been in there for quite a while, and it still was another eight years after that before I was free. Did you have

any clue who might have done something like this? No, we do now, we do now, but here So for many many years, I actually thought Jeremy Tweety was the guy because he was so quick to make up all these lies about me and to you know, help himself out, that I thought, well, I didn't even know this guy. Maybe he's the one that did it. And that's why he's, you know, so adamant about lying against me, is he's trying to protect himself somehow. He was my main suspect

for many many years. It wasn't until we identified the victim, which was seven years after I was arrested, that we finally figured out who the victim was. It wasn't until then that we started to develop an understanding of what might have really happened or and who the real perpetrators were. There was actually three people that we suspect being involved, which is ironic considering that three people were originally arrested, You Tweety and Jason Johnson, right, But I was the

only one that was ever charged with murder. They were charged with the consuming of a homicide and Tweeties was dropped to obstruction for testifying against me. But we discovered that there was three individuals, a mother daughter team that

had been their grifters. They basically took advantage of elderly people, handicapped people, mentally disabled people and extorted them for their money, and they somehow came into a power thing with the vict them in this case, who we later discovered was Mary Kate Sunderland, a mentally disabled woman, and they took over her life. They kept her from her family. They apparently, from what we understand, sold her to this mentally deranged

individual who they also extorted. They convinced this guy to have his own arm chopped off by a railroad track train, you know, a train going across the road tracks, and sued the state of Illinois. Wow, I mean, let's just go I meane, it's just one of many twists to this case. I mean, it's it really is a crazy case, a crazy story. But uh so, yeah, they they Gonzalo Chomizo is this guy's name. He's really mentally insane. He's in an institution today. They convinced him to lay on

some tracks. From what I understand what my attorneys told me to lay on some tracks, and a train ran over his arm and cut his arm off. And the money he got from that he gave to them because they sold the victim to him, and then over a certain amount of time, they starved or beater, tortured her and extorted money out of her. So they did this for this long period of time. The last thing that the victims family ever heard from their loved one was

that they don't want me to talk to you. It was these people they were keeping her for this long period of time. And knowing this, learning this helped us unravel the case because the whole theory of the state when they convicted us was that me, Jason Johnson and Jeremy Tweety picked this random girl up off the streets, took her to my room, and we tortured her and

killed her in one night, dumped the body. And you know, they had all these, you know, different theories on what evidence was there, Like they said the body was burned by molten wax and all this. And years later after we started to put all the pieces together and found these alternative suspects and we were in the federal courts, the Attorney General's office, and the new Lake County Atorney who came in with the idea that he wants to

find the truth in all these cases. They decided to reach out to my attorneys and say, let's reinvestigate this case. So we did that and what we discovered we had some independent forensic pathologists come in, three independent pathologists, and they all came to the same conclusion that this person was actually dead probably four to five days prior to

when they found the body, not the date before. And I'm glad you brought that up because that's a really interesting part of this case and it explains why it was so hard to identify her as well, right absolutely, because she had obviously decomposed to a significant degree by

that time. Well it was more than I mean, part of the reason she was unidentified was just a lack of police work, I believe because they had dental records that they just didn't follow through with things, and once they had what they wanted, they didn't follow through with investigating these things. I mean, how can you not identify the person from a few counties over when there's a missing person report on that person. How do you not

make that connection. Yeah, it's not like she was from you know, uh, yeah, she wasn't from California, you know, Nebraska or something, just going to Caracas. You know. One of the things that helped lead to your exoneration was the fact that new experts were brought in her actual experts. And I'm glad we're touching on this, Jason, because we know that junk science, bad forensics um are a major

cause of wrong food conviction. And in your case, it was a different kind of junk science, which is that you had an examiner, a Meerlican exam or something like that, who testified saying that the body had been found within a short period of time. Right right, she was found on the ninth, December nine. They theorized that on the eight is the night that we partied with her and tortured her and killed her. And he goes on to say that we poured more wax on her and she

was burned and and all this different stuff. But years later, when we got these new independent forensic pathologists look at it, all of that was wrong, all of it. One. She was dead at least four days prior to the night they found her. But uh, it went even beyond that, and to the fact that her injuries were in different stages of healing for a long period of time, weeks, if not months, So this wasn't something that happened in

one night. And further, the information about molten you know, liquid and wax being poured on her and she was burned was wrong. They said that all that discoloration and all the sloughing of the skin and everything that this medical examiner said was evidence of that was actually decomposition. There was no burns, there was none of that. He was wrong, And I learned during my civil suit from

my my attorn. He's telling me that he actually doesn't even have a medical license from any American medical schools. He got it from some Dominican Republic uh school that was shut down for different reasons of being fraudulent or not up to par or whatever. So he didn't even have he didn't even go to medical school here in his country, while he went to a non medical school in a foreign country. Yeah, so he basically was just a yachts like a totally I mean, that's that's the

way my attorney has explained it to me. So, you know,

it gets deeper and deeper. I mean, these things are always so troubling to me because especially in a case like this, where you have a young innocent woman who had her life in front of her, who was taken out and brutally beaten, maybe beaten to death, dumped in the forest like trash, and you know, one would think and one would hope that the people in positions of power would really want to find the right guy to make sure this didn't happen, even if it's for selfish reasons, Jason, Right,

even if it's just like there's a small community you lived in, right, Yeah, it wasn't a big town, right.

I always try to rationalize this, but I can't because you have all the people that are involved in this, and it was usually more than one, right, It takes more than one to to sort of, you know, create this narrative and then convictedness in person like yourself or in this case three, The actual killer, who was a sick, depraved individual, by any stretch of the imagination, is free, stayed free, right once they convicted you, once they even

arrested you, they stopped looking for him, and whoever he was, he was free to prey on anyone in the community that he wanted to and that could have been you know, one of these people, well, somebody that was loved by one of these officers, or or people in the prosecutor's

office or anything else. So even in the situation where we all find it hard to understand how someone could have the lack of of soul or the or whatever it is, or just that the the total breakdown that allows them to feel comfortable locking up someone who they knew was innocent, or more than one person in this case. They would want to keep their family in their community safe, but they didn't that that goes out the window in these cases. They get this tunnel vision like they did

in your case, and they just go for it. I think a lot of that, there's a lot there by the way that you just said, but I think a lot of that is systemic. There's a systemic problem, especially in places like you know, Illinois, you know, Cook Counties probably the worst, where this has been going on for so many generations that these cops just following the same footsteps of all their predecessors. I mean you probably follow

this back to the days of al Capone. I mean, you've got governors in Illinois that are in jail, most of them, right, I mean, it's it's a systemic problem that's been going on for a long time. And if new police officers coming into the to the force don't see good examples to follow, then they're going to follow the bad examples that they see. And that's what has gone on for so long that that's all they know

how to do. I'm not gonna say all of them are bad, because they're not, of course, but there are a few bad apples can corrupt all of them because nobody wants to be the guy that says, hey, that cops not doing his job right, because then their serpento right, and nobody wants to be that. So it becomes that this big problem that you can't get away from. And I don't know what the answer is to fix it if there's anything that stands out. And obviously it was

a miserable fifteen and a half years. But one thing I'm curious about is was there a worst moment in all that time in prison? And was there one moment that actually you remember and brings you a smile. Um Well, as far as prison goes, the worst moment would probably be the ride to prison. It was the most terrifying I could ever imagine. I mean, You're an innocent man on a bus going to a place where you know that everybody there is hardened criminals. Well most people there

is hardened criminals. It's a maximum security prison. And all I could think about is am I going to be raped? Am I gonna be murdered? Am I gonna be forced to kill somebody to survive? What is my life going to become? I didn't know what to expect. I was terrified, but I didn't show it. I I, you know, stood tall, stood my ground and did what I had to do, and I met a lot of good people and showed myself to be a stand up guy. And I got by.

I survived. It. Was there a moment that you can remember besides obviously the moment when the guard came to tell you that you were free, or even when your lawyer told you that you were going to be getting out in a few days, Was there any other moment that stands out that you had a moment of humanity or grace or you know, something that kind that somebody did, or you know, anything like you know, I mean, probably a lot of small things, but I can't think of

nothing like really really major other than you know, every time my family would come to see me. That was my my big moments, you know. I mean for the most part, it was just day to day stuff was all the same. You know, there's the monotony of it kind of gets to you. So it's it's all the same stuff over and over. I found joy in the fact that I had some really good friends. Yeah, I met some really great people. I mean, one of which

is like a brother to me. I gotta also say, man, did a lot of I owe a lot of credit to my mom and my grandmother and my family. You know, they they were a source of strength for me as well. All these years, go vibes. You spent seven and a half years fighting a lonely battle by yourself, and then you've got another seven a half eight years with the cavalry. Cavalry, right, and then ultimately we know what happened because you're sitting here, um,

and and how did that come down? What was the moment when you first knew, like you knew you were fucked when you were in the courtroom. What was the moment when you knew that you were unfucked. Oh wow, that's uh. I mean, there's a couple of different areas where I started to feel hope. But I'd say the moment when I two things were probably gonna work out

was about a few days before I was released. My attorney called me and said that they were expecting to have a meeting with uh, you know, the State's attorney and the Attorney General and Connelli's office that was the judge, and that they expected a release to be signed, that they were going to vacate my conviction. And it actually

came sooner than they expected. I was surprised. I was kind of already packing and planning, hoping that this was going to play out the way they thought, and I was taking it easy, you know, taking a break and watching a movie. An officer comes by the cells says, Strong, what are you doing, pack of ship? Man, you're getting out of here. I'm like, what what you're talking about? And I wasn't expecting it for you know, another day or two, and it just threw me. Man. I jumped down.

I'm like packing all my ship as fast as I can. You know, all my guys are happy for me. People are you know, clapping, wishing me well, people that wanting their cells were coming up giving me hugs. It was just it was a very just crazy, but you know, wonderful feeling and day. You know. Of course I had to wait for my mom to drive up and pick me up, and my attorneys were there, and but when I walked out, I was so overwhelmed that I just

broke down into tears. I just all that, uh, all those years of of you know, staying stoic and fighting, and it just I was able to let it go. That's an amazing picture that you're painting right there, and it's it's actually really heartwarming to think about all the other guys, you know, who are still facing their own demons in their own sentences. But the fact that they were able to take joy in your release. Well, I made a lot of you know, good friends in there.

I mean, guilt or innocence didn't matter as far as other people in there. You judge people by who they were, and there's there's a lot of stand up guys in there. They're not all scum like some people would have people believe. And I mean I met a lot of good people in there. You know, there are some bad people. Don't get me wrong, it I mean I made some good friends. I still go back to the prison out to visit

a couple of guys. That's amazing. So you're watching the movie, you get this, you're sort of touched by an angel, right, although it's in the form of a prison guard. In this case, he was actually a cool prison guard though. Good That adds a little something to it too. And then a few hours later, whatever it is, your mom arrives. She must have been breaking down too, and what what time of year was it when you got out, and what time of day was it? Was it hot? Was

it cold? And where'd you go? And what you do? It was the first thing you did. So it was May two fift and uh, it was a nice, nice day out. So there was three of my attorneys there at my mom, and we went to this nearby diner and I had a bacon mushroom cheeseburger, which was the best bacon mushroom cheeseburger I've ever had. And uh, we sat around and talked and just enjoyed the moment and you know, kind of let everything else just melt away.

Where their tears and you know, at that point it was just jubilation, man, just telling stories and talking and and being happy that the tears uh, most of those were shed, you know, in the parking lot before we went to the diner. So yeah, it was just an all happy moment, you know, with all of us sitting there and eating a meal together and talking about future dreams and hopes and you know, So I'm thinking about this first meal so to speak. Right, people think about

the last supper. I'm thinking about the first meal and how good does food taste after fifteen and a half years of institutional you know, slop so to speak. I think there's another element to this particular story of the first meal. Yeah. So, uh, I have this story, uh, which it's kind of it's a growing story, if you will. When I went to uh court, in the federal court, I had a writ to Stateville. I originally spent all my time in Minard and we didn't have oranges. I

used to love oranges growing up as a kid. And when I got to stay Ville, they had oranges, and I got an orange and I hadn't seen or had an orange in like eight years, eight and a half years at this point, and so I just looked at that orange and smelled it and rolled it around in my hand. I savored every moment of that orange. And most people are like, oh, you must really love oranges. But it's it's not so much that it's it's the little things that everyday people take for granted that you

missed so much when it's deprived of you. And so I ate that orange. And that was the best orange I ever ate. And when I got out the day I got out and we went to that little diner

and had this bacon mushroom cheeseburger. I was telling my attorneys about this story, and the waitress overheard and she came over to me after I was done and gave me an orange, and and so, you know, it kind of grew so and then later last year in San Diego at the Innocence Network conference, I was telling this same story and after I was done, one of the girls that was there in this little group walked over

and gave me an orange. So this is like this evolving story about an orange and it's meaning in my life. And how you know, when I was sitting in a prison cell, it had all this weight of you know, something so small but so powerful and meaningful. So you drove back to Tennessee. What date was that? Mayo? So that's uh, that's pretty recent. And since then, how's life? Uh? It's good, you know, I mean it. It took me a little while to adapt to things and want to

get back out around people. I was very uh, uncomfortable in public, Like I if I went to a Walmart, just having people, you know, aimlessly wandering around me kind of put me on an ease, you know. So I still had that kind of you know, what are you doing behind me? Kind of feel, you know, like you have in prison. And uh so, yeah, I was very weird about being out in public for a while, and I almost came dangerously close to creating my own prison

at home. That's where I didn't want to leave. But I forced myself out of my comfort zone and I got out there and just started facing things and doing things. And I still like to sit back and see everybody, but uh, you know, I get around in public with no problem. I go to concerts now, and you know, I'm trying to become an aspiring filmmaker and I do a TV show, so I'm getting around and bumping elbows

with people and going to conferences and doing different things. Jason, we have a tradition here on Lawful Conviction, which is that at the end of the show, I like to turn the mic over to you, the star of the show, and just share with us anything at all that you want to share. Okay, Um, well, I did want to add that I'm also working on a documentary that I'm filming about wrangful convictions, and the purpose of this film is that I don't want to preach to the choir anymore.

I want to reach out to more and more people and show people that this is a bigger problem than one or two people you might see in a documentary. I think too many people are unaware of how big of a problem this is. They see a story on Kurt Bloodsworth or someone else, and they'll say, oh, poor that person, poor this person, And I want them to understand it. There are thousands of people that this is probably happening to right now that we don't even know about.

America has two point two million people in prison. If just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two people. That's a lot of people's lives destroyed potentially, you know, and we need to be aware of this. Martin Luther King said, in justice anywhere is a threat of justice everywhere. We need to be aware of our problems and hold people accountable when they break the laws that they're supposed to uphold.

Cops and prosecutors should not be immune. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank

our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Ardis. The music on the show is by three time Oscar nomine composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one