#046 Jason Flom with David McCallum

the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all way up to United States Supreme Court. You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them on TV, because it may just be a dirty d A that is trying to rise upward. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back

to ronfle Conviction with Jason Flam. Today. We have an amazing cast of characters and I'm going to introduce the star of our show first, David McCullum. It is freedom after twenty eight years lost in prison for a New York Man wrongly convicted of murder. David McCallum in McCallum and another teen, Willie Stucky, were sentenced to twenty five years to life for the kidnapping and murder of a

twenty year old man. The only evidence linking them to the crime was their videotape confessions, which the boys claimed were fed to them by police for nearly thirty years. McCallum insisted he was innocent. A judge degree Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson supported the release, and we concluded that there was no physical evidence, no DNA evidence, no testimonial evidence. That conclusion came from Thompson's Conviction Review Unit, which was created this year to look at past cases. Out of

the thirty they've examined, ten convictions have been overturned. Welcome to wrongful conviction. And with David, we have someone who I consider to be a rock star. We have the sitting Brooklyn d A. Eric Gonzalis is here to talk about this case. Eric, Welcome, thank you, Jason, thank you. And we have a very dapper gentleman. You can't see him on the radio, but trust me, he's got a very good tailor and he's a wonderful lawyer responsible for

six exonerations of wrongfully convicted people, including you, David. So I want to welcome Oscar Michelin to the show. Thank you, Jason, thanks for having me so, David, this case is so extraordinary, not only because of the length of time you serve twenty nine years wrongfully convicted, but be cause of the way that you got convicted in the first place, way back in well, the mid eighties, right, that's how long.

That's correc So take us back to that time. You were just a child, really, I mean you were an adolescent boy at the time, right, let's correct him sixteen years old. Sixteen years old, you were convicted of murder, right, that's not just murder, but other charges as well. Yes, and it was a guy named Nathan Blenner who was abducted and murdered. That's correct. Yes, did you know this guy? No, I never have seen him my entire life. Now, what

were the circumstances of the crime. What happened with this Nathan Blenner guy? Okay, So in October twenty I will say, some time around three twenty in the afternoon, according to post repost of course, Mr Blenna and Nathan Blennet was I'm sitting in his car in front of his home that was attempted to start the engine for whatever reason. And so as a result of that, two young African American boys approached Nathan and engaged in the conversation with him.

At some point there after, these individuals got into the carbonating Blenna and they drove off with Mr Blah About the next day, for October twenty one, so Benda body was found in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn and a park called Aberdeen Park. When his body was found in the back of this park with a gunshot going to the back of the head. How did it come to pass that they picked you up? And Stucky? Well? The week later, on October twenty seven five, Mrs Ducky was

arrested some time around seven thirty. According to the information, and of course I have Mr Stucky was approached. It was he was getting on the train to go out to a basketball game into the tents, walked up to approached them and expally mind coming to the police station. Stucky agreed to go to the police station with these individuals. They went down to the police station. The question Mrs

Stucky about this particular crime. Mr Stucky said that he was with me when his crime was was committed, which in fact he was because that day that this crime was said to have been committed, really was in a park playing handbo with my sister and her friends. So Bullie Stucky said that he was with me. Mrs Stucky eventually confessed to witnessing a crime, and that crime was

that I shot Mr blenn office and stuck. He stood by and watched, and Oscar, you spent ten years working on this case, right, I mean, let's just reflect on that for a second. Ten years to unravel this wrongful conviction. First of all, kudos to you, because that's a hell of a commitment. And David's here is living proof of your work. What kind of a game were they playing here? And why did they do this? And how did even

stuck you get Was he just chosen at random? No? No, we actually think that it was far more nefarious than that. So it all started with some excellent police work at the beginning of the case where there were two young men who witnessed these two African American males kidnapped and carjack Nathan Blenner in Queens and gave a general description one was taller than the other. They looked to be

about in their twenties. And then the police did a canvas and they found a woman who lived around the corner who said, hey, you know that same day, just about an hour earlier, too, young African American males, one taller than the other, about in their twenties, one with corn rows in his hair, approached me when I was washing my car and said, hey, that's a nice car. And it was a Buick Regal, the same car as

Nathan Blenner. So they used that description. They put that description out to try to look for people to African American males with carjack history, one of them in corn rows, one taller than the other, And sure enough a Queen's priestinct called the Brooklyn Detectives and said, hey, I think we got your guys. They go to find these two guys who match the description perfectly, have a history of violent crime, and one of them works in a hardware store where a kerosene can which was used to burn

the car was purchased from. So that looks that sounds great, right, cases should be, you know. Over So what ended up happening is they let one of those two guys give them a lead about a gun being sold down the street allegedly by somebody named Supreme, and that this guy named James Johnson knows that this gun allegedly was used to commit that crime. And they turn away from these two guys and they go to James Johnson. James Johnson

gives the name Supreme. The cameras the neighborhood they find that Willie stuck it goes by the name Supreme, and that's how Willie is arrested. It's from two people who were prime suspects to a rat because he got a great deal. He was a suspect in shooting up of bodega James Johnson, and in exchange for giving them information about the gun. They didn't even arrest him for this robbery and shooting in a bodega, and they had that. He said, this kid, Willie, who's known as Supreme in

the neighborhood, is accused of doing this. He had a gun he was trying to unload that he got from my aunt. When I turned to Eric here for a second. One of the reasons I'm so happy that Eric is here, not only because of the respect I have from in the work that he's doing, but also because it's a Brooklyn case. You're the guy in Brooklyn now, And you know what I want to ask you is this seems

almost like it's not funny but almost comical. Right, you have these two guys who are obvious suspects, and it wasn't that easy for them to throw the cops off, because it's pretty clever what they did, right, Otherwise they would have been in prison for the rest of their lives. They just went, hey, there's a gun with and and all of a sudden the cops go, let's go chase

down the hallway. Here. It sounds like Inspector Cluseau quite frankly, David had applied to have this case looked at before under a different district attorney at the time, and they denied to you know, reopen the case and re investigate the case in a serious way because what David said, because they had a confession, and once the police came upon Willie Stuckey and he was a young boy as well, and he was confessing, then all the other evidence that

would have led to the rightful killers of Nathan Blunner. And you know, I need to say that I feel very sad for his family because they suffered along with David in a different type of way. But the criminal justice system failed not just David, but also the blended

family and all of us. But once they had this confession, all the other pieces of evidence that made sense, the descriptions that fit the other people, the kerosene car, anything that was inconsistent with that confession was then cast aside and not used and not presented, and really led to what we had with Wass travesty of justice. This evidence that should have been before jury, and had it been before a jury, would have cast all doubts on his confession.

We talk on the show about false confessions a lot, because I think it's one of the most important things that we can educate the public too, is the idea that just because somebody confessed to a crime, everybody thinks the same way, why the hell would that guy confess? So David, so people say, well, I don't know what

he confessed, Why why did you confess to the crimes? Okay, So first let me just say that sometimes I think when people hear confession, they automatically assume that the person or the persons in this particular case actually committed the crime or else. Why would they confessed to the crime. But I think what sometimes go unnoticed in the public is that things happened in the police precinct that basically forces suspects to you know, confess the Crown they didn't commit,

such as what the case would be really stucky. Well, I confessed to the crown for a number of reasons, and I think, well, one of the first ones that was physically beaten while the officers in the case, well, to be more specific, I was beat by the investigator, officer Joseph Buddha at the time. Also confessed because I was promised that the fact actually confess to the Crown,

that I would be allowed to go home. And I think sometimes in hindsight, when I think about it now, for example, that I really think I was going home at that time, as a sixteen year old kid confessed to this Phoenish crime, but murder, I actually thought I was going home. They didn't make him confessed to the crime. Remember, you know, people say, like, why would someone confess to the crime. Either he nor Wally ever said I took a gun, put it to the back of Nathan's head

and shot him. I think if they had asked either of these two boys at that time to say that, they would say, hey, yo, slowed down a second now because they knew that they would know they weren't going home. But they were specifically told you were just a witness. We know the other guy shot him. So if you say you saw him shoot him, you're at here. What are you so worried about? Plus he already ratted you out, So who are you trying to protect your friend who

already sold you down the river? You're gonna be a fool. And so I think you know first obviously, the physical abuse, the deception, the pressure, not having a parent, they're not having a lawyer there, not knowing what the heck is going on, wondering why your friend would kill somebody number one and number two, why would your friend then rat you out of all people when you know you didn't do it. You shouldn't be lost. These is still children,

the children sixteen years old children, and the confessions. And I'm sure you're gonna get into it, but the confessions don't make any sense, even when they extend up to the evidence that was known and even what was between each other. Their confessions just don't make any sense. I mean, I would ask the audience to put themselves in your shoes. David, you were sixteen years old, you must have been scared shitless. Absolutely, I was definitely afraid, and the fact that I was

afraid was so obvious though. But before you that though, so when they take it down to the precinct, they played the psychological game with you. So they played this sort of good cop backhop thing whereas one cop would come in and his tone of voice would be sort of subtle and very calm, and he would actually questions like, you know, push your name, of course we live, and you know, do you play any sports? Who is your

favorite team? That's sort of thing. And then the officer other alster came in to us, a buddh and I noticed this tone was completely different from the other officers, and you know, he was very very nasty in my opinion, and very aggressive. And I knew then that this guy was not the same guy that I spoke to obviously earlier. So the tones of the two individuals were vastly different from another. You're in a small windowless room, metal table,

metal chair, large officer hulking over you. At one point, Detective Buddha was now deceased picked up a chair and you know, held it over his head and goes, this is how we're gonna have to do this, after he had slapped David around. But one of the things that DNA did is teach people that innocent people confess, because the Innocence Project has exonerated somewhere around four people with

the use of DNA. Of those exonerations had a confession, and so those are people who are demonstrably proven innocent. There's no doubt the DNA shows they didn't do it, and in one out of every four DNA exonerations there's a false confession. So the police are trained to interrogate in a certain way. They all use this technique called the read technique, which allows the deception, allows pressure, lets them make up facts, lets them pit one against the other,

lots of different things. And in hindsight, I guess you would say, why would I do that? But again, until you've gone through it, it's hard to understand. Let's look at it this way, right, you're sixteen years old. You're totally disoriented because everything is upside down. You have the police, who we all of us grew up respecting and thinking they were out for our best interest, and that's the guy you go to if you're in trouble, right, That's how I grew up for sure, and I think most

police that is the case. Were you a violent guy prior to this? Oh no, no, no, not at all. So this is all a totally crazy experience in every possible way. You have nothing to prepare you for it. You're all alone and you see no way out, and then all of a sudden, if that wasn't crazy enough, the violence, the threat of further violence. They bring your friend or they show your friend and said, hey told me, she said you did it. All you gotta do is say he did it. One of the interesting things in

my opportunity case. So when I was first approached by these detectives on the streets in Brooklyn, that was the friends. We were sort of the game where were sort of hung out at And so when of the officers approached me, you have my picture in his hand and said, would you mind coming out to the police day for question, I said sure. You know, I didn't do anything, So I felt like maybe they want to come down. Maybe something happened in the neighborhood that they want to speak

to me about. Maybe I have some information or whatever the case may have been, so I have no reason to sort of be afraid of anything, you know. It was it was until I got into the police station when they plays squad car where they places heckles for me too. They stay where they but very tight. At that point, that's where it sort of red. The red flag went up and knew something was or something was wrong at that particular time. So I came down to

the precept. Like I said, I had no reason to think that I was gonna be in trouble for anything, Miranda, right, Um, No, not in a squad car on the street. And I got down to the police station and at some point after some of the questions ocured, that's when they read me my rights. But you probably, like most people who are innocent, you probably thought, I don't need a lawyer because I'm just gonna answer some questions and go on because they everybody's gonna know. I didn't do this because

I was I wasn't there. Yeah, I think sometimes in my particular situation, I was so afraid of intimidated really that I wasn't even thinking rationally. It wasn't even thinking at all, And I was just kind of numb to the point of being that choosed of killing somebody when I know I didn't and I know that police suck. He didn't do anything either, So I think it was maybe I don't know if it was shock or anything like that, but I know I was. I was sort

of numb to the entire situation. So even for example, when when the mirandam onners were being rented that I heard what the officer was saying, but it didn't generate

one way or the other. Back then, these interrogations were not video, and so what the juries got to see is after the confession had been extracted and written down and sometimes talked through from the defense perspective practiced, then a video machine would be brought into the room to take a confession that seemingly the person is confessing they're

not handcuffed. The circumstances at that moment look fairly friendly, considering it's a wider, open, bigger room, it's more light, but everything that happened before that is not captured, and then you're left with the juror who's saying, I would never have confessed I was in a sin of a homicide. So all they see is then the video confession that had been quitte in. Sometimes it's you know, twelve hours later. I mean it's a long time later, so that they've

been with the police for very long time. These quote unquote confessions which had very little facts. David's confession statement on the videotape is about three minutes long. That's it. There's no details. He's not asked what caliber weapon, he's not asked what handy held the gun in what it literally is about a series about eight to ten questions he's asked by the prosecutor who comes down to take the confession. Willie's was a little bit longer, about six

or seven minutes. It should have been obvious at that point that obviously someone who had committed the crime would have known a little bit more about what had happened. And it was clear that the police officer and maybe even the DA who was involved a little bit afraid to get into much detail because it was going to show that they didn't have the knowledge of it. But the confessions left a lot more questions unanswered than they than they resolved. I've been a prosecutor for twenty two

years and I've taken these videotaped confessions. When I was writing as System d A, I've viewed hundreds and hundreds of these confessions, and in this case, when David's file landed on my desk, it had entered the conviction review unit, and the district attorney at the time, Ken Thompson, said, Eric, I want you to pay attention to this case. I want you to look at the confessions and tell me what you think. I got myself readied with all the evidence around me to take a look, and I watched

the confessions. I walked in to Ken's office and I said, we have a problem here. That was a confession that did not mean anything. It was. It was the most perfunctory confession ever. I mean, this was a case that was supposed to be a carjacking or robbery. There was another single question about the robbery aspect of the case. What was taken, where did the property go? There was not a single question about the gun, the type of gun,

the caliber of the gun. These are not the type of confessions that you would imagine that a jury would convict on. And you have to wonder whether the racial aspects of this part recular case mattered because you had to you know, young black men accused of kidnapping someone from Queens and bringing them into Brookelyn and killing them. You know, was the victim white? Yes, you know that's

the problem. And then the other thing that the Oscar pointed out before is the idea that the jury was led to believe that you guys had driven this car throughout New York City, but neither one of you had ever driven a car or how to driver's license. You were sixteen years old, so somehow or other you magically taught yourself how to drive during the course of this

car jacking and robbery and everything else. I mean, you really have to suspend a lot of layers of disbelief when a kidnapped victim alive, kidnapped victim in the back holding him down supposedly with a gun, and the other one is driving from Queens to Brooklyn, and then the police had evidence that this car had been gassed up at one in the morning with the victim was credit

card at Amico gas station. And those days you had to go give the credit card to the person that was no pay at the pump, you know, And wouldn't they have mentioned that I got gas? They got they didn't ask them what about did you ever get guessed? I mean, there were so many details they could have asked these two boys to fill in, and it was just Perfunctory's exactly the right word. Eric, It was just David. I want to get back to you, but I also want to say that Ken Thompson, who was I guess

your mentor right. Ken was the d A until this year when he died way too young, and he took such great pride in the Conviction Review Unit, and he was so proud of the work that he had done to get justice for you and other people. So may he rest in peace, David. So back to you. You end up going to trial. I'm assuming you couldn't make bail, right, No, you know actually he was remanded that day. Was he didn't see his mother out in the street for twentine

years after that day. So you were held in Rikers as a sixteen year old boy. What had experienced that had to have been and then you go to trial. Did you still have any hope? Did you think that the system was actually going to correct itself and that people would understand that you could not have done this? Well? Absolutely I did. For example, when I was on Ker's album, I never like saw my lawyer at all. When I was on kas Albud. The very first time I saw

Hi Illinoyer was like the first day of trial. So he came to the bullepen. And when he came to the bullepen, he just simply came to the bullepen to sort of sort of get me prepared for what would happen when I walk into the courtroom. So that was the very first time I've seen this attorney and almost almost twelve months. Actually, okay, hold on, let's just let's just reflect on this. So you're facing the murder charge.

Your life is at steak. You've been in Rikers Island for a year and no one has come to visit you, no lawyer, nothing, no, not they have, so he has

basically you. He's never interviewed you. No, So what happens When I was on macas aland for example, I would get my court This would be a journal on a monthly basis, so I would walk into court and then every time I would actually I should say Willie and I were walk into court, and every time we walked into court, it would be one of those situations where they just sort of make the schedule for another court

day for the you know. So it was never a conversation with my attorneys about anything about in terms of the case. And you know, I mean he knew I had alibi witnesses that needed to be interviewed. I mean the interviewed them himself, you know. So it was a series of thing that this lawyer failed to do for me during the course of the case. So, if I'm correct, you didn't even make an opening statement. You have a

legal option of waving and opening statement. His attorney decided that it wasn't even worth talking to the jury about what his theory of the case would be and what the evidence he intended to show where there was in fact a defense to be had. I mean, they were fingerprints and DNA evidence that came back to other folks when they found the vehicle, and that the gun had

not been recovered. They had those two guys who were arrested on the APB, the old Points bulletin that matched the description one of them worked at the hardware store. This was not a mystery to his lawyer. David didn't know it. They didn't know any of that evidence he was ever told, But the lawyer had the police reports, and he could have offered evidence of someone else's involvement and start shaping the jury for what you expect to like the jury to hear, because I mean, here, obviously

they have to contest the confession. They have to start laying the groundwork for that and letting the jury understand that there's so much other evidence that goes to David's actual innocence. And he does not even bother to make those arguments in the opening statement. He just chooses not

to make it one. And we ended up getting as part of our investigation this guy's billing records because he was what was called a team B so where you get paid by the government on an hourly basis to do the case even though you're not legally legally cannot handle homicide cases in New York, So a team B panel gets the homicide cases. So we know what he did because I have his hours, and I'll tell you people put more hours in on the shop lift Jason. This guy never went to the crime scene, He never

interviewed witnesses. He met once with his investigator, who we ended up finding out was very diligent. He never visited Rikers, So we have the proof that he never visited David's. That's just David's were because he built for it as and as Eric knows from experience, when you get on a Team B and you're a private lawyer, a lot of times your bill is limited. The judge won't let you spend ten thousands of shoplifting case. But when you have a homicide case, that's where a tem B lawyers

make their money. Judge will never say you shouldn't have gone to the scene three times. A judge will never restrain you on a murder case from spending time on the case. So normally you see an a Team B built on a homicide case, it's pages and I'm talking pages and pages and pages long. This was one page about a third field of entries on the case and I just have never seen anything like it. It was the most disgusting, terrible representation. Wait listen, just to put

the nail in his coffin, because fortunately he's gone. I found the investigator guy was still alive, and older guys seventy six years old, Anthony Cordero, he had developed the same theory that we did. We didn't know it, which was at the police. Those two guys had a relationship, not above board relationship, and that's why they had to turn away from those two guys that they found in that Queen's priest because it was gonna point back to

the police officer involved. So he was working on that, and then he said to me, you know, I remember now, I used to pick up Marta that's his name, because he lived in Brooklyn. I lived along Island. When I would drive to court, he'd said, can you do me a favorite? Picked me up on your way in. And every morning when I picked him up, he was in his kitchen with a bottle of cheap vodka and a toll glass ice, and he would offer me a drink and I would say, Mr myrtle, it's eight thirty in

the morning. I don't drink any thirty in the morning. And he'd have a drink and sometimes two glasses of vodka before getting in the car and going to try David's case. It starts to sound like it was a travesty, is what it was. It was a total travesty. And you know, it's not easy to say when I speak at bar groups a lot of times about Rome for convictions, but bad lawyering and not having qualified attorneys represent those people who are accused with these crimes. It's a big cause.

It's easy to blame over zealous prosecutors and all of that, but the defense bar has a lot of guilt on these rawful convictions. And David, you don't have any knowledge of all this stuff that's going on, that your lawyers are drunk, that he hasn't done any work, that none of this stuff that is supposed to be there to protect you is operating for you. It's all actually working against you. But yet you remained optimistic. The jury goes out and they come back and they find you guilty.

I mean that moment. Can you walk us through that? Sure? So for me, living in the system, still believe that I had truth on my side, still believing that the jury is going to find both WILLI and I are not guilty. So when the verdict came in, I was sitting, of course, back into the bulk and already call us out to the courtroom and they read the verdict and

they said guilty. I was initially stunned, but I had to make sure that our hellmarking POSI, and not only for myself, but I had my mother sitting in the back of the courtroom. I didn't want her to see my reaction, and I also didn't want to turn around to see hers because that would have probably got me very very upset. So what I tried to do is I tried to sort of have a sort of even killed straight face. But I was really, really I was in disbelief because I really had my heart set on

not guilty verdict. So when he actually came back and said that Willie and I were actually guilty of killing this person, I was also in a state of disbelief. But it were importantly for me. I think I was more concerned about my family at that time, who wasn't court on a daily basis, you know, supported me and that sort of thing. Because, for example, one thing my mother said to me the very first time he she even mentioned in case for me, like when I was

in the precinct. The very next day I went to court and she asked me since she said, David, you know, did you commit this crime? And I said, no, mind did not. And so that that conversation or questions never came up again throughout this whole entire experience. So that and of itself allowed me some confidence that you know, my mom believed in me, she believed what I said

to her. So when this verdict was rare, I just couldn't find myself to turn around and look at it because I just know that, you know, she was hurting, obviously, and just for me to see that that would have got some kind of reaction out. I mean that sort of in a volatile way, but in a I mean I probably would have got over emotional, and that's something

they want to do with that particular time. So I just sort of help my compulsion just just you know, just walked out of the courtroom after the verdicts were read, and I was able, of course to you know, call her on the telephone that protected that night and talked to her and told her, trying to comment out and try to let her know that everything was gonna be fine. This thing is gonna work itself out, you know, the

truth is eventually going to come to light. And just to have patients something she always told me to do. Just have patients. So that was the best way I try to deal with this such a other what could can best be described as a really a tragic, tragic event and really Stucky was convicted as well, and as uh we know, he he never got out of jail. He passed away in two thousand one. Yeah, and net's talk about that for a second. So Willie, you're co

defending who was equally let down by the system. Endoor a lot of the same things that you did, and unbelievably had a heart attack at thirty one years old in prison and died. I never got to have his day in court and his freedom again. So it's just another tragic aspect of this horrible case. And when we were going back to his family, his family, even we were starting to look at the case, they were almost afraid. They were like, you know, I don't know that we

want to look into this. I don't know that they were prepared to try to think about They would rather just you know, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. And at first I was kind of shocked by that, but almost in some way that that would almost be worse for them to then find out that obviously they believed in him, but now that there was proof there there was all this stuff that could have been done. It's like a second death when you think about how wasteful it is.

And you know, the correctional facility never even really told them. And they say heart attack, but everyone dies of a heart attack. Okay, it's just cardiac arrest. It'll tell how did he die, what what caused it? And they heard different stories. A bad to let the sepsis, you know, had a heart attack in the yard. They had so many questions, and I think they were just afraid to look under the rock and see that it was such

a waste of a life. I'm gonna ask you, Eric a very difficult question, which is that in this particular case, so many things didn't make any sense right because of the nature of this crime, very violent, with the kidnapping and the driving all over and the holding the guy down at gunpoint, the backseat and everything else that went on in the murder. You would have to know that a couple of kids who didn't have a history of trouble, this would not be the first cred wound be your

starter crime, right, so I would think. But I want your opinion that the prosecutor probably knew they were innocent too. Do you think the prosecutor ever had a thought, well, this doesn't really make any sense when I'm just gonna go ahead and do my job anyway, and just will not even do my job, and I'm just gonna go ahead and and get this conviction and keep it moving. You know, I have to believe that the prosecutor did not I have to believe that the district attorney that

a person who has sworn to uphold the law. You know, one of the things that I've said publicly about prosecutors is that prosecutors have a way of trying to synthesize evidence, to make things holes in their cases closed and to close reasonable doubt before juries, and they become trained to think that way, and sometimes the humanity of being a prosecutor and thinking about this because you know, listen, for me, I grew up in East New York and Brooklyn, roughly

maybe a year or two younger than David. But the thought of me traveling at that age into Ozonhoe talk under the time that we lived in New York City in the eighties is not something that a black kid kids would do at that time who had never been in that neighborhood before. They stand out. And it's very important because we mentioned this, but the two gentlemen that were there in Queens did not fit the physical descriptions of either David or Willie. So you ask, how can

a prosecutor go forward on this case? And I think that you start to believe in your own theory of the case. And prosecutors and detectives, I think too often they get a suspect, they have some evidence right here, they had the confession, and so you have a prosecutor who's not thinking anything differently than than an ordinary person. He's confessed, they have some evidence. You have these conversations with the detective, and the grand jury has now indicted

the case. And what I'm really critical about and what I tell my prosecutors, and this is one of the important work of the Conviction Review Unit, is that in the eighties and and the nineties. I became a prosecutor in the nineties, there was so much crime, and so much violent crime, that often it was let the juries decide and let the jury decide whether someone is innocent or guilty. And I think that was a complete abdication

of our responsibility to do justice. If a prosecutor cannot believe in their case, they have no business bringing it. And one of the things that I instruct the Brooklyn d as now is if you have doubt about your case, you should not be trying that case. And let's look at the case. But when I came up as a prosecutor, I will tell you that often it says, well, there's twelve people in the box, let them decide guilt or innocence.

And so I think in some cases, and I'm not saying David's case or Willie's case, but in some cases prosecutor just said, well, we're going to let the juries decided, and that's wrong, and that's not going to happen again. It can happen, gonna have again, and Brooklyn for the next four years. I know that much because we got you in there, which is great. So, David, you seem like a very composed, thoughtful, decent man who has from what I can tell knowing you're a short time that

I have a positive outlook on life. How the funk does somebody survive twenty nine years in a maximum security prison and come out And because when you came out you've never been on an airplane, you didn't know I mean a phone. The phone used to be a thing with a cord that was stuck to the wall. Right,

that's absolutely correct. Yeah, So so how the hell did you first of all, survive as an innocent man in prison for almost three decades, and then how has it been coming out and how have you managed to become the man that you are now? Oh wow? Well, thanks for the very kind words. And I think for me, a lot of things fortunately working in my in my favor. So for one, I always always knew that Willie and I were innocent, so the truth always believed it couldn't

be compromised for that respect. But also I have an older sister who's disabled. You know, she has cerebal palsy. She was born without a spot. Her name is Ella.

She's been bed ridden her entire life. So anytime something would happen in prison, any time I would feel a particular way in prison, I would always think about my sister because she was she was really inspiration for someone like myself who was also going through some difficult times, but in my mind, not as difficult as she had been, so she was drew inspiration from her, And of course my mom, who never wavered in believing in me from the very beginning to the very end. You know, so

I had those things in my favor. But then as time grew on, of course, I was able to develop a really good support system. And so what I mean by that is a really good attorney and Oscar mission. And because Ruben Hurricane Carter came into my life at a time where I really needed him the most. So when I had all these in the whole boat of other friends who packed into my life as well, so I would, you know, get visits in prison this sort of thing, and I mean some of the visits that

would that I would get. We were just talking about things that would happen on the outside. Because one thing Ruben instilled in me, and he said, it was very important that I think this way is sort of to think outside of prison and put myself outside of prison, at least spiritually. And that's what I tried to do, and I found it. Once I started doing that, I started sort of like just feeling much better about a

lot of different things. And so when things of course got tough, as they often did in prison, at least in my experience, I've thought about all the people that I came into my life of course for the time and I needed on the most and that was really beneficial for someone like me, because in prison it may not afford the sort of a latitude in blessing that

I were given. So I definite took it for granted for that regard, but again, um, the fact that I could see here and be humble, I hope it's really the testament of other people coming into my life, not just David McCallum himself. David's an exceptional man. I was immediately touched when I met him. I know Ken Thompson was as well. We had David come to the office and talked to our young interns and make sure that our people who want to be prosecuted understood what happened

to him. David is just an exceptional man, and I know that we've done it before, but as the District Attorney of Brooklyn, I apologize to you, brother for what happened to you, for how the system let you down. Thank you very much about that. Did that as a New Yorker and a human being, I'm gonna I'm gonna add my apologies because we we let you down. I mean, everybody let you down. But you're here and that's a great thing. I mean, I'm thrilled to have you here.

You mentioned Reuben Hurricane Carter right, a legend not only for his boxing abilities to former number one middleweight contender, immortalized in the Bob Dylan song. But how did he come to find out about your case and and get involved and then write a letter that really helped tip the scales for you? Right? Well, yeah, thank you for asking that question. That was actually the foundation of how

it really all this really began. I mean, look, I started a letter mariting campaign long after my state and federal pills were exhausted, because at that particular time I did have any other league recourse other than the post conviction motion, and with that you normally have to present luty's govern evidence, which I didn't have at that time obviously.

So when I started about lether writing campaign, I was sitting in a place called Eastern Correctional Facility, and I was a law clerk in a low library, and a friend of mine named Earl Coleman was reading this magazine called The Sun. Some magazine is like a literal magazine where it has a lot of like short stories and everything. It may soften read in poems and stuff like that, where it may so often, you know, recited not Dusty

to themselves but to other it Mays for example. So what I had no real really had no real intention to read the magazine. All I simply want to do is to sort of produse it. So because I want to go back to my house and units to get ready, you know, for the next day. So I got this magazine and I thumbed through the pages and I came across the edge of row with kN Klasskey and Ruben Hurricane Carter. So I knew who Rubin Hurricane Carter was. I know he was a you know, former prize fighter.

I know he had spent nineteen years in prison for a triple homicide and Patterson, New Jersey. And that's what I think. So I wrote Ken Klassky letter hoping that he can get me in touch with Ruben. So and that's pretty much how this whole story sort of evolved into basically while I'm actually sitting there now, because once I was able to Closs, he was able to get me in cont touch of Ruben. I had opportuned me Ruben on several occasions. He became sort of a mentor

for me. We had very intense conversations on the telephone. Movement was a very intense individual and that sort of thing. So my camel was able to put me in touch with him. That really like set the stage for me meeting other people that came into my life too, and basically sort of prepared me. So when I Rubens were was a when I actually eventually got out that there for you. The movement was sort of a positive individual that way. So meeting all these people sort of set

the stage for preparation for me to get out. So when I got out, of course I was shocked at some of the things that I saw initially, but I wasn't overly shocked about a lot of things because again, meeting all these individuals who shared their stories with me about travels and stuff like that, that allowed me to get a sense of what society would be like if I got out of prison and that sort of thing. So I was kind of prepared. It's always but in a lot of ways, I was not prepared to be

honest with is. So this was also the importance of having a really really good support system. You're not a person that gives us, are you know? I mean, you know, what's my state Philip pills were exhausted, but I just kept thinking about my family, for example, and at that time really sucky. Even of course he was, you know, he was still among us, but we had lost communication for a while. So I just wanted to do some want to fight, not necessarily for my supper, for the

both of us. Ruben was forced to be reckoned with. I had just done my first exoneration a guy named Angelo Martinez, and back in the in those days, it was a very rare events, so there was a lot of press, a lot of media about it. And about a week two weeks later, my secretary says, there's a phone call for you. It's Ruben. Hurricane Carter on the phone. So I said, it's one of my idiot friends from the Bronx, just trying to bust my chops, you know, I said, I said, all right, put it through. I said,

so what do you want? And he said, hello, this is Dr Carter and I wanted to actually in the case. I want to talk to you about your next case. And I said, what are you What are you talking about? I couldn't believe was actually the hurricane Like like you Jason, I mean that song, that story is legend, right, I mean, you know. And he said, I'm going to send you this file. We need a lawyer in New York, and I want you to look at the file and call me when you're done and what you think about the case.

So I called him back after I looked at the file. I said, this guy got the worst trial I've ever seen in my life. This guy's trial was horrific. He should never have been convicted. So Ruben said, yeah, but do you think he's innocent? And I said, I don't know. I didn't really look at it, you know, from that aspect. He said, well, call me back when you looked at me from that aspect, because I'm not interested in the procedural error. I want to establish this guy is innocent.

So then I went back and looked over everything, and then I found something consistency is almost immediately in the confession, one of which was the thing that the lynch pin really to the whole wrongful conviction. And I called him and said, neither of these guys did it. And he said, okay, I'm coming down to New York. Let's go visit him. And uh, I said, okay. And as you could tell anybody who meets David. You know, five minutes into it, you're like, this guy's not a murderer. This guy was

never a murderer. And we spent a lot of time that day with David, and then we brainstormed after. But Ruben was the one who got his name. Helped us get the leading false confession expert on the case, a guy named Steve Drizzen. He helped us get Laura Cohen from Rutgers University and her students to help David the parole piece, and then they became involved in the reinvestigation as well. And his letter to the Daily News moved

the case to the top of the pile. And I don't think David would have been here if Ruben hadn't gotten into his life, or frankly, David hadn't just decided to pick up the Sun magazine that day. How many times you think about that, I think because I had plenty of opportunities to say, you know what, I'm just gonna go back early tonight. You know, I'm not going

to stay around. I'm not gonna stick around. I didn't have any any more work to do that, particularly as he worked a Yeah, so it would been very easy for me to just sort of shut it down only, which I did at times. You know, we feeling tired.

That's sort of thing you want to And then you know, in two thousand and thirteen Brooklyn elected Ken Thompson, where I have a story about that, and you have to have a prosecutor who's willing to take a case that's, you know, thirty years old and say, yeah, we're gonna actually take a look at it, reinvestigated, reopen it, because we know that prosecutors are love to do that across the United States, and in fact, even in the Brooklyn

d A's office, the answer had been previously known. And that's I'm glad you mentioned that because I remember in two thousand thirteen or when during the campaign when Ken Thompson was he was campaign it and so that time I was at a place called Oldersville, So that's a medium connection. It's like a place like basically made up

of dormitory. So I remember staying up late at night just trying to hear any sort of campaign news that I could because you know, I wanted I wanted this guy to when not because it would guarantee any any freedom or anything like that, but at least we will guarantee change, and people like myself in that situation, all I really wanted was an opportunity and all as a legal team, all we really wanted was an opportunity and fair chance, you know, to have our case heard, because

under the previous regime, we we really believed that we wasn't, you know, given a fair opportunity to present our case in a way that we that we needed to. So when some Thompson eventually got elected, I know that he made some campaign promises that he would investigate one for convictions thoroughly and that sort of thing. And once I heard that, I really was really I was emotionally ab cried a lot, because that's what you want to hear,

especially someone in my opposition. You just want someone to say, you know what, we're gonna do this thing fairly. And however it would have turned out after that, of course I would have been disappointed, but at least I would have known that this individual delivered on the promise, on the campaign promise that some individuals don't normally do under

those circumstances. So when he became the attorney, UM, I think the people of Brooklyn can attest to this, that it really changed the datatics of the I think the criminal assis system in an impression. We've vacated both under his tenure cases in destroyed period of time that I've been serving as the acting d A, I've vacated two additional cases who were up to twenty three cases. And the work of our conviction review unit is ongoing and

there's much more work to be done. Well, you have a real dedicated team, right, I mean in some of these convictive review units around the country they have one part time guy or whatever, and you have we have we have a tender tend detective assigned to this. We have full time prosecutors who only handle these reinvestigations. Currently we have nine full time prosecutors, and we have full

time detectives. We have full time paralegals, to have many law firm that's working on reviewing cases of wrongful conviction. It's simply a model. There really is no other word for it, and no other place has replicated it. No place has tried to replicate it. And you know, I knew Ken from really gating. We were adversaries on a couple of big cases against each other. When he got elected d A. I called him and said, I got talked about this case because we have been rebuffed countless

times by Joe Hines's office. We were told, come back to us when you get the real killers. And I said, I thought, that's your job. You know I'm not here to catch the real killers. I'm here to show you that this guy and his co defender or innocent. And he said, wait till you see what we're gonna do. Okay, call me in January, call me in February. And I said, I'll give you some time, but you really look at

this case. He said, done, just call me. And I never expected him to do the breath that he did, and him and Eric developed this unit that was second to none. The standard that Ken said was, is it a conviction I could live up to. I don't care whether he already made this argument. I don't care whether anybody else has already looked at it. I want to be able to stand by this conviction. That's the tone

that Eric said. Also, because he helped developed the unit with Ken, and he put him directly on David's case. And I remember telling him, I said, you were the only elected official can that I can think of, in modern history who got elected promising more rights to the criminally accused. Every other prosecutor before Ken was tough on crime. I'll lock him up, I'm gonna safe streets, war on drugs. And this was the first guy who said I'm going to try to reform the system and he put his

money where his mouth is. Like you said, he I couldn't believe it when I went up and saw the unit. By the way, there's nothing that helps public safety about convicting the wrong guys. In fact, that's the opposite effect.

So let me ask where the real perpetrators ever caught in this case, because if not, then that's another crime against society, right right, I mean, one of the things that no one thinks about in willful conviction is if the conviction was wrongful, it means that the people who actually committed this crime are still out there, and people who come into this crime, unless they're in prison for other things they've done since her, we're still out there.

They've never been held accountable. But we believe that we know who did this crime, and there is no statute of limitations. And if the evidence can never be brought and I'm in office, I will bring that case. Yeah, I think all of us would like to see these guys brought to justice because these are dangerous, scary individuals who committed a really terrible crime and got away with it. What was the moment when you found out that you were going home? Sure get emotional substance, So please excuse

me on that one. My correction council will see the telephone call from Oscar Mischelin and Laura Cohen, and I was summoned to her office to speak to them. And so when I got on the phone, Oscar pretty much said to me that you're going to be coming to court the next day. I believe it was Wednesday, as a matter of fact. And when he and Laura said that to me, it's not that I didn't believe them. Is that for me? For something? I just wanted to get to court and hear the judge actually say the

words that their conviction is going to be vacated. And I remember leaving my Correctional Counselor's office that afternoon, walking back up the hill to my house and unit really crying, and in some ways really didn't know you know what I was crying about. It is because I was I mean, I had a lot of mixed emotions. Not that I necessarily didn't think that I was going to go home, but the fact that I was going to be going

to court and something big was gonna happen. So from that standpoint, I was like on the pins and needles for the rest of the night. And on that particular night, for example, I didn't go to sleep because I just simply couldn't. I just kept thinking about the very next day when I was asked to pack up my stuff

and I was going to court. And so for me, what I did was when I packed up my stuff and getting ready to go to court, I gave a lot of my of a way, not necessarily knowing specifically that I was just gonna be coming back, but I just I just felt like, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna give people stuff that I think they deserve

and they need, and that's what I did. So, when two investigators from the Brooklyn Districttorneys Office came to pick me up and they put me in a car and he drove off, they were playing the song the Hurricane, and so one of the investigators asked me, do you know what this guy's of course I know who that guys. He said, do you know what these thinkings? Said? Of course, I know what he's thinking. That's about hob Dialan and he's singing the Hurricane. And I thought that was really cool.

We had a really cool woman with these guys coming down to Brooklyn because these guys actually grew up with Brooken themselves, these investigators, and they were just talking to me about how things changed in Brooklyn, and and so we got downtown. It was pointing out certain things to me and it leaven off me some some real food that I've had and had ever since I've know been inconcerrated and that sort of thing. So it was sort

of that kind of moment. And when I actually got into the courtroom, and well actually before I got to the court whom I was taken to the Brooklyn District Trainings office and take upstairs and my show what FLOORA was on, and Ken Thompson came in and he introduced himself and he told me on certain terms that when I walked out of this building to the courthouse that he wanted me to hold my head up high. And I really appreciated those comments because I think he was

saying that I'm probably gonna I'm gonna be haircuffed. But because I got had was on me. Don't look at yourself as it is a criminal. I think that there was this message. So I did what he what he asked me to do, and I walked down to the courthouse and he went upstairs and eventually went into the courtroom. And I've seen all these individuals in there with the media, a lot of a lot of people in the courtroom off us and as they were saying, you know, the

rest is history. So yeah, and Oscar, you're taken. And so when you called them the night before, did you knew what was going to happen the next day? You didn't tell him? Well, Kenneth called me and said, once you come down in Columbus day, bring one other member of your team. The office was closed except for the interview and Laura Cohen and I met with him and we talked for a while and he said, we're gonna

do it Wednesday. We're gonna vacate the conviction and I'm gonna vacate Willie's conviction also, And you know, it was a very very emotional obviously, and no I called and told him I didn't hide anything from He just didn't

want to believe it until he heard the judge. That's like from years of being beaten down by the system, being told no all the time, even during my letter writing campaign, for example, So before I actually wrote Kidding that letter, I wrote hundreds of letters to law firms, newspapers, New York Times, Daily News, the New York Post. I mean, all different sort of kind of publication that I wrote, some magazine that I wrote, I'm just trying to get some help, you know, because at that time I didn't

really have any. So again it was not a madam that's not not necessarily believe in them, because I really

had no reason not to believe them. It's just that I just I just wanted to hear this judge say that man, and this Everything in my life had come to up to that point where just sort of culminated to that one moment in the fact that when I got into the courtroom, and actually prior to me getting the courtroom, I had a conversation with Willie Stucky's mom and I recall a very specifically saying to me, um, you know you're my son now, and those words resonated

me with me in a way that I'll never forget. And so when the judge, of course, the the d A and Oscar was in the courtroom and the judge finally, you know, of course made this decision. Um, I just

hugged her and I just looked at her. It was a very very bittersweet moment for me because at that time, I'm thinking to myself, you know, here I am gonna be walking out of the courtroom very happy, but very sad at the same time, because really, stucky you should have been walking out out of this very court room with me so and having sat in the first role in that courtroom. There were a lot of wet eyes

all throughout. But it was a very emotional moment um the sense that justice was delayed for so many years, but there was at least at this moment of reckoning and the reckoning that that the system had failed. And we've discussed did here. It wasn't just a prosecutor or a bad detective. It was a systemic failure of the criminal justice system. While it was bitter sweet for everyone,

it was finally that we've righted this wrong. We have a tradition here on wrongful conviction which is that I like to turn the microphone over to you, David for closing thoughts. But in this case, because we have other special guests here, I'd like to actually do around Robin and finish with you. So let's start with Oscar. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience? No, I just think that uh, for folks out there who are listening, that that say to what can I do?

And I think the most important thing is to just keep an open mind when you read stories about people being arrested, serve on a jury, if you're called, demand that your criminal justice system, that your prosecutors and police live up to these standards that we've talked about today, and for those who are prosecutors to follow the model. Frankly then that Brooklyn has set, you know, Ken and then Eric have followed that that I have not seen

replicated throughout the country. And I just thank everybody, yourself included, because shedding light on these things is the only way that we're gonna avoid these wonful convictions in the first place. That's that's the goal, is to develop a criminal justice system that's fair to the people, that's fair to the accused, and that gets it right more often than it currently does.

So I appreciate this opportunity to get this information out to folks, and hopefully they'll take it with them and remember that when they have the opportunity to somehow affect the criminal justice system, we have an obligation to do justice and not just to try to secure convictions. But I also believe that part of my job is to protect the innocent, and that needs being proact and not just waiting for things to play out in the courtroom.

And so much of what I've tried to do in the short period of time is I've done things like hired immigration attorneys to protect people who are accused of crimes who may have immigration issues, something that people think is not in the role of a prosecutor. But making sure that we protect the innocent is important and we can't lose track of that. And for David, you should know that every assistant district attorney that we've hired now gets taught on false fed facts, which were a keyl

in shpin of your false confession. The science of you know, wrongful identifications and false fed facts, and these things were things that prosecutors never trained on. And when we make these exonerations. The first thing that we go back is we do what could we have done differently, and we

train on it. So I want you to know that the generation of prosecutors in my office so being trained, and they learned about your case when they learned about you know, a lot of the other people we've exonerated to make sure that this never happened again. This can't happen again. And I'm gonna say before turn over to you, David, that for everybody listening, vote, go out and vote in your this your attorney's racist, because you can make a difference.

So David, now the highlight of the show is just to turn it over to you for any closing thoughts. Okay, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. You know, during my twenty nine is in prison. In prison in general, the notion is that, you know, you should never trust anybody, and I guess in a lot of cases that's actually true.

But for me, I didn't necessarily subscribe to that theory because I didn't feel it was appropriate for me, because I felt like I was in the position to have to trust somebody in order to get where I needed to go, and that was home, you know, So I really put my faith and a lot of people to help me because I really needed to help. Really trust me,

I really have desperately needed to help. And one of the things so I do like public speaking every every once in a while, I'll tell people, so with the world through the politics, come up with all the stuff has happening, you know in our country these days. I always tell people just believing, believing people. If you don't believe in your look that officials to the extent that you don't trust them, believing people, because it's the people

that surrounding who's going to make the difference. It's going to create the change that's necessary. And I don't know for me and meeting Ken Thompson, and I had the privilege of being invited to his funeral by his wife, and I can say that when I was had the opportunity to speak for the time that I did and I shared with the audience that I at that time I had to find my full daughter the Quinn and I specifically said that Ken Thompson is the reason why

I have my daughter. And that was totally sincere about that, because if this individual didn't show the courage that he showed in taking on this particular endeavor of wrong for conviction cases, a lot of people, not necessary myself, but a lot of other people would would be in the world of trouble right now. And wife, frankly would probably still be accocerated. And it just so just closed with this. When the Agins I was, you know, introduced me to

his children and his wife. That was a very touching moment for someone like me because I'm sitting there and I'm looking at his sins and I got the opportunity to meet these guys, and you know, that was doubt for me, was the privilege. And I would like to say that that that said more about dickens hows than than it than it did about me. And so I just want to thank you because that really struck a chord with me. Even after I met with you going my way home and I felt really good good about that.

I looked at that as a as a privilege, and I just want to, you know, for sil Us, but when I see the because I was getting gonna really let him know thank him for that, because that that touched something that touched the emotional chord for me, and that just showed me and it just really confirmed and reinforced for me when I just mentioned earlier about people and that's important for people just to have faith in each other. And that's simply when I when I did

during my time in prison, and it paid off. Thank you, David, that you been in a privilege to have met you and to know you and to see you doing the great work that you're doing, the awitness that you bring in, to see you happy and with your own family makes me very grateful. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important

cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason flam Is a production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one on