#039 Jason Flom with Kian Khatibi

go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew I was innocent and let force testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all way up to the United States Supreme Court. You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them on TV, because it may just be a dirty d ai that is trying to rise upward. This is wrongful conviction.

Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I have very special guest, Kian Katib, who's going to tell you a story that will well, it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken, Welcome to the show. Thank you good to be here. So Keion. Ironically, I guess you could say is from Pleasantville, New York, and you grew up in sort of a nuclear family, sort of normal childhood pretty much. Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year year and a half apart, and

I'm I'm the number two. And the crux of your story all revolves around a tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called lock Stock and Barrel and nine. That's where it all started. Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed in a fight in this bar, and at the time that had happened, you were in the police station, which is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have much of a better alibi than that

that was hidden. But there's video that exists that proves that you were in the police station at the time of the stabbing, and yet they managed to convict you. Anyway, So let's go back to that faithful day or that faithful night, I should say, when you were in that bar, What was going on? How did this fight happen? How did you end up going to the police state. I mean, it's all so nuts. Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a

good place to start. Well, I was inside of the bar Lockstock and Barrel, in the village of Pleasantville, Westchester County, New York. And I just got in there. I think I was there maybe under ten minutes, and there was a scuffle. There was a I guess a group of young folks and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely college bar, and there was a scuffle and I got pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar.

A little shorter than me is document. He grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up and I put my hand to push him away. He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least. And at that time I the bouncer was standing at the door, and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was just focusing on the guy who had his arm around my collar

and squeezing my shirt, you know. And the bouncer grabbed my shoulder and says, hey, you gotta get out of here. So I left, you know, I obliged. I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I deserve to stay, I don't, you know. So I walk out and the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but you were the closest guy to me, and I just had to get a grip on the situation. So I left. I want a seven eleven store to get some coffee. And you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well,

all my friends are inside. I came with them. At this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do I get home? Uh? Do I go tell my friends? And you know, we're everybody doesn't have a cell phone, no, nothing like that. That's just not going on. So, you know, maybe a few people at that time, if I recall correctly, had what they called pages. Yeah, so I'm thinking what

do I do? So I start walking back toward the bar and saying, maybe I can see someone outside, make sure everyone my friends knew at least I was kicked out and that I'm going home, or maybe they're leaving

too soon. I'll get her ride. So I started walking back to the bar and um, there's a huge parking lot on one of the sides of the lock Stock and Barrel bar or pub whenever you call it, And then I see a group there's altercation and there's yelling and screaming, but I walk a little closer because I, you know, I didn't think it involved me and didn't

at that time. It's also the way back to the bar that I have to go, so I get a little closer and it seems these guys are just like arguing and screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me. And I go to walk past them and one of the guy's points at me and says, hey,

there's the guy from from the bar. In my head, I'm just like, oh my god, and I'm thinking, is that one of the guys who had me by the collar or one of his friends. I'm like, jeez, it wasn't enough that I just got kicked out of the bar. Now now now they're like, hey, that's him, Like so um. I kind of steer around the group to get to the sidewalk because I'm don't want anything to do with that, and the guys still yelling and it looks like he wanted to come after me or to hit the tone

of his voice. So, you know, and I'm a small guy, you know. At that time, I think I weighed like a dty five pounds at you know, five nine, so that's probably as light as you can get. You know. I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs and everything. And you know, these guys are some there. We're both actually football players. So it's very intimidating for me. Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, this is not a great night so far. But yeah, exactly exactly,

but it's about to get a lot worse. It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that was the beginning of the next ten years of of downward spiral, you know, until the light, so until the hard fought light that is. So I managed to get past them and past them right across the street as the train station. I walked past them. I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the train station. And it's this downstairs

in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, it's maybe like thirty steps and um, you know, it's a big carve out and it's kind of like, you know, a dip in the ground. So it's like a big co chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls all around here in this down in this pit in the middle of Pleasantville. And I started hearing all this yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing down there, and I'm just thinking,

what what is going on there? So I get I get nervous a little because one I was just kicked out of the bar to the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey, I saw that guy go down the train station steps. Let's go find them, you know, And this this is what's going through my mind. At least, you know, I think I thought it was reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not

a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big person. So I come back up the steps of the train station and I just kind of positioned myself right next to the police station door, which is on the other side of the train station. And when I hear the train coming, I'll walk down and grab the train. So I'm and I'm laughing, but it's like, actually, all of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the police station for protection.

At the time I thought it was too but you know, in hindsight, I see that every step I made I was was apparently, you know, a step toward the fatal results which which occurred, and you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to the police station. Now it's about, well, we actually know because there's there's time stamps and stuff. Right, we know you went to the police station at one twelve in the morning, right, and then and then what happened.

I was outside waiting to listen to the train to go back down just for safety reasons alsome to hear tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking, is that related to the fight that the folks get into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are they driving around looking for people? It's it's going to be one of those like brawls between villages, you know, because there's rivalries in in some of these towns, like

football rivalries or whatever, Hawthorne, west Lake. And I was thinking, uh, maybe something like that's going on. I'm outside and I hear these tire screations, and all of a sudden, I hear these some it was women's voices, and it sounded like they were screaming, like a horror film or something like that. My heart just jumped out of me at that time, and I ran into the police station and there was a glass wall there in the desk officer

and she's like, can I help you? And I was like, yeah, well, listen, I was just coming from down the road from you know, the seven eleven, walking back past the lock stock and barrel, and um, there was some guys that were after me, and I'm a little intimidated to wait down here by the train station alone. And I just worried that they might come and find me, and I guess fight me.

That's what's going through my mind. At least. I asked if I could get a ride to uh police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations are probably like a mile apart, you know. And the officer said, yeah, come here here some water. Sure I can give you a ride to the Hawthorn train station, no problem, give me a second. And so I sat down. I'm I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I feel like,

you know, that's it. I did what I had to do to take care of myself, at least for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride to the train station, go home, and and that'll be that about it. I guess less than a minute around around that time goes by in the officer comes back around to me and says, hey, listen, I can give you a ride, but I've got to go run and answer this call. And I don't know what time I'm coming back, so I can give you a ride, but you have to wait, and I have

no idea what I'm coming back. So I said, okay, well thanks, and then he just like gunned it out the door. So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride and I do have to get home, So I get up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find my way home that night, And I thought that was the end of it. When did you find out what actually happened that night at the bar, Because they turned out to be a lot more than what you thought. Right,

A couple of people were stabbed. Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking about it the next day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You find out that there were a couple of people stabbed in the bar that as it turns out, they were so drunk that didn't even realize they had been stabbed until they came out. But one guy was in the hospital for a couple of weeks, so it's a pretty a pretty

serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops are trying to figure out who did it right exactly, and how the hell did they land on you when you were in the police station at the time of the stabbing. Let's talk about this. How did you end up getting convicted because most of the witnesses said you weren't there. Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of tortuous to explain how we got from A to B, but I'll give it my best shot. So there was about two weeks

that went by. In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know, and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and that the victims were found actually down the block in front of the Bank of New York and another bar, you know, but I kind of put some things together and say, oh, that probably had something to do with the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And on January, I'm in Pleasantville, down

by the pizzeria. You know. My mom still lived there at the time, as well as brothers and sisters and a detective, Detective Mazie of the Pleasantville Police Department. I guess he catches wind that I'm there, you know, and it's I'm actually on the same block as the police department. And out of the blue, he approaches me. And you know, he's a real imposing guy. He probably weighed at least two hundred pounds and I think he's close to six ft. And he approaches me and he says, hey, hey, Keian,

come here, you know. And I walk over him and he says, you come with me right now. You talk to me what happened a couple of weeks ago. And I said, well, tell me what you're talking about. I don't know. He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now, but here's my card if you want to, you know, calm down. And we'll make an appointment. I'll come in and speak with you, but I have other things to do right now. You know, I have a job.

I work evenings as a waiter. And he got so piste off, like the anger in his face it was, it was just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you don't want to talk to me, then all right, f you, and he jams his finger into my notes and it like stung me. And I'm just in shock right there, and I'm standing there, frozen, and I don't know what to do, Like what's next? You know, it's he gonna like drag me away? Is he gonna like take me into a van? And I don't. I don't

know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. I stand there for a minute and then I walk away. When I go home, art go to work, my day goes on. I I contemplate calling him and make an appointment, but I'm but I'm not sure. I don't. I don't want to go and face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then, UM I think about two weeks go by, and um, a couple of my friends call me up

or or tell me. I don't recall exactly when I but when I see them or hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, all right, you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came. They showed me the warrant and they said they're looking for you. And I said, did you immediately think that it was for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the hell could they possibly be looking for me for? Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on.

It's not like I was out there doing all sorts of stuff where they you weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay, So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now what happens? Well, I call a lawyer and I tell him a story. I said, you know, my friends telling me there's a warrant for my arrest, and the lawyers like, well, did you see it? And I was like, well no, because you know then I probably would have been arrested by the time I saw it. But I'd

like to know, how do we handle this? You know, do I turn myself in. Do we call them, did they come pick me up? And so we arranged um a date for me to turn myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did. And I think it was February four when it turned myself in. I was I was arrested. I was held in um County jail for about a week without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville. I want to the felony hearing, there

was two victims. One of the victims is testifying about how he uh thinks that I stabbed him this and that, and it was held over for indictment. I was indicted. I went to trial and I was convicted. Of course, you know, there's a lot more in between to the story, but that that's uh, that's the timeline there. But both of the victims, it was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes, And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the time.

They were sad. They were so heavily intoxicated that they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk do you have to be to not know you were stabbed? Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His blood alcohol content B a C was greater than point three and

that's all it registered on on his blood test. And I think the way the hospital had it set up, if you're greater than point three, I mean that was that was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero eight point one, but greater than point three was was the max. They don't go higher and that and that's a state where you can um according to the consensus, like you can black out, you whose consciousness you potentially you could die from alcohol poisoning at that level. Let's

talk it for a second. I think for drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So when you're at point three, that means you're about four times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to the point where, yes, you can have acute alcohol poisoning and you can die.

And it's interesting because at trial, neither one of them was able to identify you as the assailant, right, yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them or they saw me stabbed them, but they made conclusions that it must have been me that stabbed them, and you know, and that the jury was allowed to hear that and that, and that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter

or to show the jury. Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them when in fact I didn't. Well we know now that there are a number of reasons. The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know lead to wrong flight identifications in so many cases. Right, the police showed a photo lineup with you in it and showed it to the victims and told them that the actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number of things they did that are that are at

a minimum bad police work. And I think that's one of the factors that happened in your case that led to you being identified as as the sailing even though you weren't even there. That's one of the main factors. Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take you to get to trial? It took a little over one year, so you're in jail the whole time I actually bailed out.

I was out on five thousand dollars bail, so before trial, I was out on bail, and during trial, I was I guess, you know, lucky enough to to be out on bail. It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right, That would indicate to me that the judge who set the bail was not very concerned that you were going to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand.

Mean that's almost like a misdemeanor type of bail. Yeah, Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses in the case and set the bail at five thousand, and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing occurred in February of and the trial occurred in February of nine, so there was a whole year there to prepare and

you know, fix up the weaknesses. And I guess those are nice words to use, because the real words I should use is they had a whole year to destroy evidence, to suppress evidence, to fabricate evidence, and to coerce these witnesses to testify against me. So by the time I went to trial, you know, it was pretty much guaranteed lights out. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible when you

think about, again, this is New York. You're a guy who's not the typical defendant, you know, you you hadn't really had a lot of altercations with the police before, and yet they did things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word. Yeah, that was That was just ridiculous.

I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning and doing that, or or how they explain why they did that. It's just it's ridiculous. Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape that they knew had a time stamp on it that would have placed you at the police station at the time that the crime was being committed, which is right there, case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't do it, that they withheld that, they intimidated your friend Eric, right, who

was in the bar. Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was he was not my friend, but I didn't know who he was. Yeah, he was an associate. I mean he he would have been a friend if he was a a nicer person. Put I just wouldn't call him a friend. Okay. So they intimidated the acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud into implicating you. And we know from either way the cop behaved towards you, actually physically assaulting you on the street in front of the

pizza place. We know that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right, so they I mean, I don't want to believe that police behave like that. I grew up and I still believe that. You know, listen, most I think most police are good. I think as a society we need police. I'm not one of these people who's like an anarchist or something like. And I always say I'm not soft on crime. I'm tough on injustice. Right.

I believe we need to have a system of laws. We need to have people in place, police, prosecutors. The old system has to function because it has to keep society safe. But when it's turned upside down, it's just it's it's so deeply disturbing to see what they can do, how they can grind somebody like you up. So, Kiah, now that you are a practicing attorney, and we're gonna get to that in a few minutes, because some of

the stuff you're doing now is so fascinating. Looking back on your trial, do you feel that you were represented in an adequate manner? Well, I mean I don't. I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of problems

there with the defense. At the same time, I have to say to myself, well, how can a defense truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld from the defense's You know, yeah, I mean you didn't have much of a chance. He would have needed the Clarence Darrow or the modern day version be Barry Schecked representing you to give yourself a fighting chance, and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a rich guy, right, You couldn't afford the dream Team. I was on financial

aid going to community college at that time. I had to put it politely, you were fucked, right, But then you got to trial, it was already it basically was a formality. They were they were gonna they had you, they were gonna get you. And that's exactly what they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven to fourteen years. I'm trying to imagine what was going through your mind when that happened. Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago, in your America, this doesn't happen. This

type of behavior from police officers doesn't happen. And that's what I was thinking too, even after my arrest and during my trial, you know, and all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no way that the jury would convict me, or this judge will allow this even to get to a verdict based on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You

don't get convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right, And the last thing I think in my mind is that everyone would simply jump on board and push my head under the water. That's the last thing I thought would happen. And the whole time I was in prison, I thought, surely someone come with a helping hand and see see the injustice that has occurred here. But you know that that doesn't happen, you know, and you're stuck, always hoping for the next level. When you're

in prison. At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know, these are actually kind of naive thoughts looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're they're idealistic thoughts. Yeah,

you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always equate with justice. No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In

your case, there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still had a story to tell that that should have at least put some one of two of the jurors in a position to say, I can't it reasonably convict this guy. Which prison did you get sent to? Well, initially, I mean Westchester County Jail, almost almost for like a

year there. It turns out that they apparently they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail, and everybody, um I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted their upstate within two weeks. And there I am eight nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on. So I actually called my mom and I said, can you call the jail and find out what's going on. It's supposed to be out of here to go upstate.

Not like I was like, hey, let's go up state, but in the county. It's pretty rough conditions Westchester County Jail. I mean basically don't get to see anybody or anything. It's no sunlight. It's pretty tough. So she called and she said, well, the state says they forgot you here, so they don't they didn't know, you know, whatever paperwork error. So I think in July I shipped up state to

Downstaate Correctional Facility, which is in Fishkill, New York. After my mom called and I figured out that I was lingering over there in the county jail for a better half of a year. And that tells you something about just how bad jails are. And I think it's important for people to realize that you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking can you please transfer me to it? Was that a maximum security prison? Yeah, so

you're attracted transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison now you're you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds scary right downstairs, just sounds like it was prison in general was it was very, very scary and intimidating. How did you survive in this environment? Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess, observe what's going on and find out what what I

want to be involved with. So when I went up state, or even it started in the county jail, I realized that there's a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general, who had or have drug problems and all. And there's no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison. And there's another large group which tends to gamble all the time. Some of them they'll talk

to you, you know, without strangling. You are are rippons with about japage, right, So you know as a young, skinny twenty two year old that I was, and they'd say, they give some advice and they say, stay away from gambling and drugs and you're going to increase your chances of not getting a shank in the back. And I thought, you know, that really made sense. So I'm really not a gambler to begin with, you know, And the most I ever did back in high school was sunk some pots.

So I thought, hey, I'm good. You know, I wasn't the type of guy who had proved myself. You know, that's not what I was there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison. You know. I was there because for things I didn't do. You know, I was not a big bad dude, and I think I am. I have ability to make people laugh as well and feel comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me, and that includes you know some of the

gang leaders, some of the old timers. You know, these are big time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs and and you know, I would talk with them, and they seem to be more you know, in control and calm. I guess because of their you know, a long experience. They were no longer going out doing wild things. Those were the younger folks in the prison generally, who are like stabbing up people or are doing crazy stuff

for no reason. So I think I made I guess you could say, friends or whatever with with a few of them, and they respected me and think they knew that you were innocent. No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last thing you want to do going up state because there are folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense like that, and you just have to learn really quick what people interpret as weakness, because

you will instantly get preyed upon. Like, for example, crossing my legs right here, right, No big deal. You look at it, you see anything go up there. It's twenty two years old and you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic.

You cross your legs, are you do anything that's considered not macho, and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay, and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be made fun of, our stolen from or a chump or a punk or whatever. So you really have to watch out for anything like that in the outside world, which you're just being yourself, you know, crossing my legs whatever. I mean, I'm not gay, but it

wouldn't matter. I'm just saying any any indication. At the same time, you know, there's people that that sniff out newcomers and they'll try to watch your body language, how you hold your shoulders, and if and if there's a piece of weakness, they'll come up and they'll try to be your friend or this or that. You know, it might not find out for weeks later that they're actually preying on you, praying on your weakness to find out so that they can basically wrap you up in a

corner someplace and demand your commissary. And I've seen this happen to so many people. It's rather sad. If that works out, then they go on to the next level of intimidation and they'll they'll have people call their family at home and say, hey, can you send me some pack of cigarettes? Can you send me some money? I'm in trouble here, and that money will go to, you know, an extort or someone else under threat of rape or or getting beat up, and and and then oftentimes you

know it does lead to rape. But the person who you know, who's victimizing there is is just really a real intimidated person. It's also terrifying the whole idea of the eggshells you're walking on and having to learn a whole new, twisted culture and programming. And it's got to stop. I mean, being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should be some some dignity in this process, and that is it's an affront. Two should be a front

to everybody's sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness. So so here's where things get really nuts. Kean on November seven teen, two thousand and seven, during a dinner at your family's home. Your dad was talking about how much he missed you and wish you were there and everything else, and then a crazy, crazy thing happened. And I don't know how easy this is for you to even talk about, but I mean, do you want to tell what happened or you want me to do it? Go ahead and then

I'll fill in the blanks. So, having read the story, it was at that time that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Cavan, right, your brother Cavan, began weeping at the dinner table and admitted that he, in

fact was the culprit. And I'm getting the chills as I'm saying this, and I'm trying to picture what the hell was going through your parents minds at this point in time, right, I mean, here they are talking about how much they miss you, as any parent would, and now learning not only that in fact, everything you've been saying all along was true, that you were innocent, but that the actual perpetrator is sitting at the dinner table

with them, is your brother. Things start to progress from there, right, tell me how that things start to move at that point, because a new hearing of ultimately is held at which he's brought to the stand. Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step by step timeline there. So after that um evening, you know, my father and brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and UH and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well this is

what we should do now. Eventually it led to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the two individuals being included an emotion what they call UH for fort emotion in New York, which is UH what you do after direct appeal to get facts off the record in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.

Following the hearing, my conviction was vacated and a new trial was ordered based on the confession of my brother, as well as some other evidence which developed during the hearing. But wait minute, be before we get to that. I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like. Was it both of your parents that came to the prison to tell you this news? No, my dad, Yeah,

my mom was in Chicago at that time. So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that, in fact, your brother had admitted that it was it was he who had committed this crime for which you have now had eight years of your life stolen from you in the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like? Um, well, different people will have different reactions if they were in my position. But for me, I can tell you it

was simply a feeling of relief. I just felt relieved because now you could see light at the end of the tunnel. Well, that's that's logical. You didn't feel rage. It was relief for a while. That ray did come. I mean I I did throughout the years that followed. Um, you know, possibly up until just a few years ago. All right, don't talk to my brother right now. For variety reasons. Obviously, you know, there's what happened here is one of them. But um, in the beginning, for at

least a few months, it was just relief. It was just relief. You know, I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and and I couldn't I just couldn't figure out why I am there? How you know, how the state could have so much power over an individual's liberty with with without without providing enough circuit breakers, enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still there, amazingly as as fate would have it on septemberd and eight, which was your thirty third birthday. Right,

You've got the best birthday present you could imagine. I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well? I was upstate, you know, where was I at this time? Hime? I think I was at Sing Sing Correctional facility. And they called me down to White Plains and I walked out in front of the judge on September. Meanwhile, I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped up and just said we would not oppose defendant's r O

R release right now. And I heard that, and I was just like, I don't know, I'm luck atting lose consciousness at that time, just just hearing those words. So the judge caught me loose, caught me loose right then in the court room, and I was in this state issued clothing and I and I'm still surrounded by these officers, you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple muscle bound officers and all surrounding me with handcuffs and and I couldn't believe it. So what happened? Did they take

the handcuffs off right then and there. But then you had to still change. It wasn't like you walk out into the daylight wearing a correction uh uniform. Right of the they gave me what's called the court uniform, which is like, I guess, it's always tight jeans. They always give somebody two sides is too small. But it was tight jeans like from the eighties. You know. So wait a bit, but you're in the courtroom, in the room, but you were still dressed in the state issued clothing. Now,

at what point did you change into these tight jeans? Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's a beige sweatshirt and jeans here, you can put them on so you don't have to go in front of the judge in your prison greens. Okay, So at that moment you almost collapse, right, but you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That moment must be etched in

your memory permanently. I mean, well, if you take it back about one minute before the judge said that, you have an officer sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down on my left side, and an officer behind me. And as they walk you in. Well, one guy you know who feels like he has like the hand of a of a guerrilla strength. You know, it's always the case as a hand on your shoulder and

they're walking you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And to be honest with you, they mean that, don't turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head, you you get taken down. And it's not a pretty sight. You know. They don't just take you down, you you

get a beat down. So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer like you can feel the breath on the back of your neck of these officers just waiting two take down a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to the right. And that was how it was until the judge said R O RT and I So I turned to my lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up? Can I'm free to go? And he says yes, and all the officers stand up and I get up and I say, you're on or

I can leave. She says yes, you can leave. And I turned the officers and I say, I can go off those back doors. Yes. I had to ask the question, like I must have just kept repeating it to every single officer there before I even felt the courage to take a step, because you gotta understand, for ten years I had been under the gun, and if you make any move unauthorized in a situation like that, you are getting taken down and oftentimes you end up in the hospital.

And and there's no recourse for that. You know, you turn your head when they say you didn't turn your head, you disrespected direct order, and uh, you know the way the law works as far as prisoners is concerned. Apparently there you can get taken down and a knee in the back and you know, a foot on the face, I guess, but you know that it was hard to believe and I and I and I really couldn't believe it. I asked, I think I just repeated so many times, can I go out that door? Kind of go out

that door? And I had to make sure because I felt, I felt it was unreal. And were your parents and family in the courtroom, Yeah, they started crying. So I actually walked over back at them in the seat, and I said, don't cry this, you know, this is a beautiful moment. Should be happy. And so I tried to be strong for them, and I tried myself not to cry because you know, I didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest. And you know, I wanted I wanted to see some smiles on their face, you know,

care about to my love then. And so we got up and left, and I left with my sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me to the mall to get bear jeans, and you know, that was that was a very interesting moment as well, because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these jeans on and they're all tight, and I'm telling them, I think this is really tight on my you know, my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a lot tighter.

We're letting you go with that. That's the style now. And so I was like okay, and I tried them on. I walked out and took me a few weeks to realize that that was probably just ordinary jeans right there, as opposed to when everybody was wearing more loose stuff, and so I got used to it, still going ten years later. So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school, not just any law school, n yucho, so let me correct you on that one. So I went to n y U undergrad and I graduated with honors.

For law school, I went to Benjamin and Cardozo Law School, which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also the home of the Innocent Project, and that that's my

that's my law school. So you went to n y U. He went from Community College, Pleasantville, Waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievable ordeal and Saga two n YU one of the hardest schools in the world to get into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardoza Law School, which is the home of the Innisis Project, which is again a

top top law school. And then you passed the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain was was spaghetti, nobody would it would be totally understandable. But you managed to find this extra gear, this focus, this determination, is drive and accomplish these great things that passed the bar, and now you're in practice as a criminal defense attorney

in New York. Incredible, it's incredible, incredible story. And you've won one lawsuit right already, for yourself, for myself, right and now you're representing clients, including one whose story has kept me up at night since you told me about it. And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk about the case. But what's what's really nuts to me is that Kian now finds himself representing a case that is eerily similar to his own. That is true. Absolutely, I see a lot of things in common with my

case there. It's part of the reason why strives me to help this man out. Are you able to talk about that? I know it's an ongoing case, So it's an ongoing case. I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a T shirt right now, right? Is that it? Yes? So it's free f R E Darwin just like it sounds the A R W I N roke r o q U E dot com. Yeah, and has a little information about the case and what we're trying to do

for for Darwin. And so I mean, this case it seems like has a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with the difference being that in this case someone was it was a stabbing, but it was actually someone who was killed. And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were, and it's still fighting for his freedom. Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now,

but you know he's a strong individual. So hopefully he can get through this and and we're sol it will be something equitable and just for him at least to

gain his freedom again. And it's an important part of your story too, So I want to talk about this because this is where it's so important that people like you exist and are able to spend the time and devote the brain power and the energy and the inspiration draw on your own experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is now serving a terrible sentence in

a terrible place. And this is a guy who was a young up and comer, right entrepreneur, running a pet store right his own pet store, at twenty four years old. I want to bring attention to his case and use your story to drive interest in Darwin's case and helpfully have him sitting here in your seat sometimes soon I would love nothing more than to see that. For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin. To help Darwin, well, you know, we have to hire a

gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and investigators and all these things cost money. And when you go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because courts are really not receptive generally, so it cards a lot of effort and a lot of money. So on the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there. None

of it will go to me. I don't charge an hour leafee, I'm I'm working pro bono and I will continue to do so until I see justice done in this case. But they can donate and it will go toward a forensic pathologist, a gang expert, other experts that are needed. Possibly paperwork that I acquire from the from the d A or police or litigation you know, costs court fees. It'll go toward that. So that's one way that they can help and it will go a long way.

So in the nutshell, people please go to free Darwin Rope dot com and see how you can get involved. And help keyon in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself in twenty years ago or so. Ken, We have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is that I like to turn the mic over to you, the star

of our show today, for any closing thoughts. Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out, there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money, although

every little bit does help as well. Reach out to some folks and uh, if you know, if you're really interested in and helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still in jail for things they did not do. I think it's epidemic, if not pandemic, in this country. And also thing we're still trying to get a hold on how many people actually get convicted of things they didn't do, and I think it's I think it's much greater than then your average person anticipates. So don't be

afraid to reach out. Maybe volunteers some time. Hey, it could be a good thing. You can donate to certain charities and give it a shot. Might make you feel better. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Rnful Conviction with Jason flam is a production Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one