#039 Jason Flom with Kian Khatibi

I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

I was naive enough to believe that I would be able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't be going to prison because I was a good person. I hadn't do anything wrong.

In the back of your mind, you say, well, when we go to a hearing or we go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all the way up to the United States Supreme Court.

You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority.

Don't presume that people are guilty when you seem on TV, because it may just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward.

This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today I have very special guests Keon Katibi, who's going to tell you a story that will well, it'll probably blow your mind because it blows mine. Ken, Welcome to the show.

Thank you, good to be here.

So Keon, ironically, I guess you could say, is from Pleasantville, New York, and you grew up in sort of a nuclear family, sort of a normal childhood pretty much.

Yeah, there was five of us, all about a year year and a half apart, and I'm the number two.

And the crux of your story all revolves around a tragic incident that happened in a bar in Pleasantville called lock Stock and Barrel eight.

That's where it all started.

Yes, that's where it all started. Two people were stabbed in a fight in this bar, and at the time that it happened, you were in the police station, which is just sort of like, I mean, you can't have much of a better alibi than that it was hidden. But there's video that exists that proves that you were in the police station at the time of the stabbing,

Okay, Yeah, that's that's probably a good place to start. Well, I was inside of the bar Lockstock and barrel in the village of Pleusbonville, Westchester County, New York, and i'd just gotten there. I think I was there maybe under ten minutes.

And there was a scuffle.

There was a I guess a group of young folks and everybody in there was in their twenties, most likely college bar and there was a scuffle and I got pushed on the back and kind of like bumped, and I turned around and somebody grabbed me by the collar. A little shorter than me is stocky guy, and he grabbed me by the collar and starts lifting me up and I put my hand to push him away.

He's assaulting me, harassing me at the very least.

And at that time, the bouncer was standing at the door and he turned around he saw some kind of scuffle. I'm not sure exactly what was going on. I was just focusing on the guy who had his arm around my collar and squeezing my shirt.

That's reasonable, you know.

And the bouncer grab my shoulder and says, hey, you got to get out of here.

So I left. You know, I obliged.

I'm not going to sit there and argue, hey, I deserve to stay, you know, So I walk out, and the bouncer says, listen, I know you weren't involved, but you were the closest guy to me, and I just had to get a grip on the situation.

So I left.

I went to seven to eleven store to get some coffee, and you know, at this time, in my head, I'm thinking, well, all my friends are inside. I came with them. At this time, I was living in Yonkers, New York, although I'm from Pleasantville, and I was thinking, Wow, how do I get home? Do I go tell my friends? And you know, we're nineteen ninety eight. Everybody doesn't have a cell phone, er nothing like that. That's just not going on. So you know, maybe a few people at that time,

I'll get a ride, right, right.

So I start walking back to the bar and there's a huge parking lot on one of the sides of the lock stock and barrel, bar or pub, whatever you call it. And then I see a group there. There's altercation and there's yelling and screaming. But I walk a little closer because I, you know, it didn't think it involved me and didn't at that time.

It's also the way back to the bar.

That I have to go, so I get a little closer and seems these guys are just like arguing and screaming with each other some some dumb stuff. In my mind, I'm like, oh, there's a couple of drunk folks out here arguing, you know, has nothing to do with me. And I go to walk past them and one of the guys points at me and says, hey, there's the guy from the bar. In my head, I'm just like, oh my god. And I'm thinking, is that one of the guys who had me by the collar or one

So, you know, and I'm a small guy.

You know, at that time, I think I weighed like one hundred and forty five pounds at you know, five nine, so that's probably as light as you can get. You know. I was like, you know, spaghetti my arms and legs and everything. And you know, these guys are some they were both actually football players. Oh so it's very intimidating for me.

Yeah, and you've just been assaulted once already. It's like, this is not a great night so far. Yeah, exactly, exactly, but it's about to get a lot worse.

It's about to get a lot worse. In fact, that was the beginning of the next ten years of downward spiral, you know, until the light, so till the hard fought light that is. So I managed to get past them and past them. Right across the street is the train station.

I walked past them.

I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to the train station. And it's this downstairs in Pleasantville. You walk downstairs, it's maybe like thirty steps, and you know, it's a big carve out and it's kind of like, you know, a dip in the ground, so it's like a big ex chamber right there, because there's you know, concrete walls all around here in this down in this pit in the middle of Pleasantville.

And I start hearing all this.

Yelling and screaming from the bar and it's just echoing down there, and I'm just thinking, what what is going on there? So I get I get nervous a little because one I was just kicked out of the bar. Two the guys were saying, hey, there's that guy. So I'm like, you know, I just didn't feel safe, Like what happens if one of them, in their drunken stupor says, hey, I saw that guy go down the train station steps. Let's go find them, you know, And this is what's going through my mind.

At least, you know, logically, I think it was.

I thought it was.

Reasonable to feel a little scared. You know, I'm not a fighter. I'm I'm not wasn't that big a person. So I come back up the steps of the train station and I just kind of positioned myself right next to the police station door, which is on the other side of the train station. And when I hear the train coming I'll walk down and grab the train. So I'm I'm laughing, but it's like, actually.

All of this sounds very rational to me. Actually, you know, you're I mean, that's you're going to go to the police station for protection.

At the time I thought it was too but you know, in hindsight, I see that every step I made was apparently, you know, a step toward the fatal results which occurred.

And you couldn't have predicted that. So you go to the police station. I was about, well, we actually know, because there's there's time stamps and stuff, right, we know you went to the police station at one twelve in the morning, right, and then and then what happened.

I was outside waiting to listen to the train to go back down, just for safety reasons, also to hear tire screeching, and I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking, is that related to the fight? Did the folks get into a car or whatever? Someone get beat up? Are they driving around looking for people? It's going to be one of those like a brawls between villages, you know, because there's rivalries in some of these towns, like football

That's what's going through my mind. At least.

I asked if I could get a ride to a police station next door, because in Westchester the train stations are probably like a mile apart, you know.

And the officer said, yeah, come here, here's some water.

Sure I can give your ride to the Hawthorn train station, no problem, give me a second, And so I sat down, I'm drinking the water, and now I feel safe. I feel like, you know, that's it. I did what I had to do to take care of myself at least for that moment. I'll be able to get a ride to the train station, go home, and that'll be that

Just like gunned it out the door.

So I'm sitting there and I finished my water, and I'm like, okay, well, I guess there goes my ride and I do have to get home, So I get up and I leave, and you know, eventually I find my way home that night, and I thought that was the.

End of it.

Well when did you find out what actually happened that night at the bar, Because it turned out to be a lot more than what you thought. Right, A couple of people were stabbed.

Well, Pleasantville is a small town. In Pleasantville, everybody's talking about it the next.

Day, Okay, so yeah, so the word gets around. You find out that there were a couple of people stabbed in the bar. As it turns out, they were so drunk they didn't even realize they had been stabbed until they came out. But one guy was in the hospital for a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it was a pretty pretty serious wound. Nobody died, And meanwhile the cops are trying to figure out who did it right exactly, and how the hell did they land on you when you were in the police station at the time of

Well, I guess, you know, it's kind of torturous to explain how we got from A to B, but I'll give it my best shot.

So there was about two weeks that went by.

In the interim, I'm just getting all these rumors, you know, and friends are talking about folks getting stabbed this, and that the victims were found actually down the block in front of the Bank of New York and another bar, you know, but I kind of put some things together and say, oh, that probably had something to do with the altercation that was at lock Stock and Barrel. And on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, I'm in Pleasantville,

I don't know.

He goes on about Saturday night, this and that. I told him, well, listen, I'm not coming with you right now, but here's my card. If you want to, you know, calm down and we'll make an appointment. I'll come in and speak with you. But I have other things to do right now. You know, I have a job. I work evenings as a waiter. And he got so pissed off, Like the anger in his face it was, it was just ridiculous. And he turns red and he says, you

And I don't know all this stuff. I'm like, you know, I'm at a loss and I'm helpless, and he walks away. I stand there for a minute and then I walk away.

When I go home, I go to work, My day goes on. I contemplate calling them and making an appointment, but I'm not sure. I don't want to go and face more of that hostility, that's for sure. Then I think about two weeks go by, and a couple of my friends call me up or tell me. I don't recall exactly when I but when I see them or hear from them, they say, hey, the police are out with a warrant for your arrest. And I said, are you kidding me? And they're like, yeah, yeah, they came.

And I said, did you immediately think that it was for the stabbings or did you think, like, what the hell could they possibly be looking for me for?

Well, that's the only thing I could put my finger on. It's not like I was out there doing all sorts of stuff where they.

You weren't like a master criminal. No, okay, So okay, So now they've got this warrant for your arrest. Now what happens?

Well, I call a lawyer and I tell them a story. I say, you know, my friend's telling me there's a warrant for my arrest. And the lawyer's like, well, did you see it? And I was like, well no, because you know then I probably would have been arrested by the time I saw it. But I'd like to know, how do we handle this? You know, do I turn myself in, do we call them, do they come.

Pick me up?

And so we arranged a date for me to turn myself in on the warrant. So that's what we did, and I think it was February fourth of nineteen ninety eight. I went and turned myself in. I was I was arrested. I was held in county jail for about a week without bail until I had a felony hearing in Pleasantville. I went to the felony hearing. There was two victims. One of the victims is testifying about how we thinks that I stabbed them this and that, and it was

But both of the victims was Duffy and Boyer, right, yes, And both Duffy and Boyer were heavily intoxicated at the time they were stad. They were so heavily intoxicated that they didn't even know they were stabbed until someone came along and lifted up their shirt and said, how come there's all this blood? Right? So, I mean, how drunk do you have to be to not know you were stabbed.

Well, Boyer, according to his hospital record, he was His blood alcohol content BAC was greater than point three and that's all it registered on his blood test. And I think the way the hospital had it set up, if you're greater than point three, I mean that was that was all they showed. You know, they'll show point zero eight point one, but uh, greater than point three was

Let's talk about that for a second. I think for drunk driving the limit is point zero eight, right, So when you're at point three, that means you're about four times the legal limit for driving, and you're getting to the point where, yes, you can have a cute alcohol poisoning and you can die. And it's interesting because at trial, neither one of them was able to identify you as the assailant, right.

Yeah, I mean nobody said that I had stabbed them or they saw me stab them, but they made conclusions that must have been me that stabbed them, and you know, and that the jury was allowed to hear that, and that they believed I stabbed them. That was a real shame because I didn't have the evidence to counter or.

To show the jury.

Why Why did these victims believe that I stabbed them when in fact I didn't.

Well, we know now that there are a number of reasons. The interrogation was very suggestive in ways that we know lead to wrongful identifications in so many cases. Right, the police showed a photo lineup with you in it and showed it to the victims and told them that the actual perpetrator was probably at the scene. There's a number of things they did that are at a minimum bad

That's one of the main factors.

Yes, so you're a trial. How long did it take you to get to trial?

It took a little over one year.

So you were in jail the whole time.

I actually bailed out.

I was out on five thousand dollars bail, So before trial, I was out on bail, and during trial, I was I guess, lucky enough to be out on bail.

It's interesting that they set bail at five thousand dollars, right, That would indicate to me that the judge who set to bail was not very concerned that you were going to be around stabbing anybody, because if they were, they certainly wouldn't set bail at five thousand. I mean that's almost like a misdemeanor type of bail.

Yeah.

Well, when we went to the felony hearing, I think the judge saw that there was, you know, profound weaknesses in the case and set the bail at five thousand, and I was released. Unfortunately, you know, the felony hearing occurred in February of ninety eight, and the trial occurred in February of ninety nine, so there was a whole year there to prepare and you know, fix up the weaknesses.

Yeah, I mean it's pretty incredible when you think about, Again, this is New York. You're a guy who's not the typical defendant. You know, you hadn't really had a lot of altercations with the police before, and yet they did things that are so beyond the pale, including not handing over a bloody shirt and hat that were found at the crime scene, right, I mean, and then eventually claiming that they were misplaced. I mean misplaced, that's a nice word.

Yeah, that was just ridiculous.

I mean, I have no words to explain their reasoning and doing that, or how they explain why they did that.

It's just it's ridiculous.

Not only did they withhold exculpatory evidence, including the videotape that they knew had a timestamp on it that would have placed you at the police station at the time that the crime was being committed, which is right there, case closed done. That means they knew that you didn't do it, that they withheld that. They intimidated your friend Eric, right, who was in the bar.

Yeah, well, I'd have to just say he was not my friend, but I didn't know who he was.

Yeah, he was an associate.

I mean, he would have been a friend if he was a nicer person, but I just wouldn't call him a friend.

Okay, So they intimidated acquaintance of yours named Eric Freud, into implicating you. And we know from whether way the cop behaved towards you actually physically assaulting you, yeah, on the street in front of the pizza place. We know that there's a lot of credibility to that claim. And then they also threatened the bouncer if he didn't implicate you, right, so they I mean, I don't want to believe that police behave like that. I grew up and I still

Well, I mean I don't.

I don't and I hope I never represent someone myself as an attorney. Now, the way I was represented at trial by my attorney, then there was a lot of problems there with the defense. At the same time, I have to say to myself, well, how can a defense truly be effective if all the evidence is being withheld from the defense?

It's really hard, you know. So yeah, I mean you didn't have much of a chance. You would have needed the Clarence Darrow or a modern day version be very shack representing you to give yourself a fighting chance. Absolutely, and that's clearly not what you had. You weren't a rich guy, right, or you couldn't afford the dream team.

Oh, I was on financial aid going to community college at that time, right, I could hardly even afford, to.

Put it politely, you were fucked, right, But well, then you got to trial. It was already It basically was a formality. They were they were gonna they had you, They were going to get you. And that's exactly what they did. You get convicted and sentenced to what seven to fourteen years In person, I'm trying to imagine what was going through your mind when that happened.

Well, like you had just said a few minutes ago, in your America, this doesn't happen. This type of behavior from police officers doesn't happen.

And that's what I was thinking too, even.

After my arrest and during my trial, you know, and now all I keep thinking is, you know, there's no way that the jury would convict me or this judge will allow this even to get to a verdict based on this evidence. And I know I'm innocent, and I feel like, you know, that doesn't happen. You don't get convicted of things you didn't do. Not in my America, right, And the last thing I think in my mind is that everyone would simply jump on board and push my

When you're in prison.

At first it's oh, you know, you get arrested, I'll be released at the felony hearing. They'll see this was a mistake, you know. But that doesn't happen, and the jury will see and the judge will see, and maybe even the prosecutor will see that I'm innocent. You know, these are actually kind of naive thoughts.

Looking back, they were naive thoughts. I mean, they're idealistic thoughts.

Yeah, you really can't ignore that. Oftentimes police and prosecutors have a motive to get a conviction, which doesn't always equate with justice.

No, and that's the reasonable doubt standard is something that needs to be reinforced into everyone's head. There you have to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In your case, there was tons of reasonable doubt. Even though a huge percentage of the evidence, and the most important evidence was with hell, there was still reasonable doubt and you still had a story to tell that that should have at least put some one of two of the jurors in a position to say I can't reasonably convict this guy.

Well, initially, I'm in Westchester County Jail almost almost for like a year there. It turns out that they apparently they forgot me. That's what I was told. After I was convicted, my bells revoked. I go to Westchester County Jail, and everybody I see coming in after pleading guilty or convicted, they're upstate within two weeks, and there I am eight nine months later, and I didn't know what was going on.

And that tells you something about just how bad jails are. And I think it's important for people to realize that you don't see the sunlight thinking about that. How insane is it that you, an innocent man, is actually asking can you please transfer me to it? Was that a maximum security prison? It was, Yeah, so you attract to transferred to a maximum security prison. So in prison, now you're in this it even it sounds it just sounds scary right downstate. It just sounds like.

It was prison in general. It was very, very scary and intimidating.

How did you survive in this environment?

Well, the first thing I had to do was I guess, observe what's going on and find out what I want to be involved with. When I went upstate, or even it started in the county jail, I realized that there's a lot of folks there in prison, in jail in general, who had or have drug problems, you know, and there's no doubt that they continue to use drugs while in prison. And there's another large group which tends to gamble all the time. Some of them they'll talk to you with that,

So I thought, hey, I'm good.

You know. I wasn't the type of guy who had to prove myself. You know, that's not what I was there for. I wasn't there to earn my stripes in prison.

You know.

I was there because for things I didn't do.

You know. It was not a big bad dude. And I think I.

Have ability to make people laugh as well and feel comfortable around me. So a lot of folks, a lot of folks felt a closeness or ability to talk to me, and that includes you know, some of the gang leaders, some of the old timers. You know, these are big time dudes in jail. They head up the gangs, and you know, I would talk with them, and they seem to be more you know, in control and calm. I guess because of their you know, a long experience. They

And you think they knew that you were innocent.

No, to be honest with you, that's probably the last thing you want to do going upstate because there are folks there. They will pray, people prey on any whiff of weakness, any whiff of weakness, and it's really intense like that, and you just have to learn really quick what people interpret as weakness because you will instantly get preyed upon. Like, for example, I'm crossing my legs right here, right, No big deal.

You look at it, You see anything I.

Didn't notice until you've pointed it.

Well, go up there as twenty two years old and you're crossing your legs and in prison. The environment is it's so homophobic, it's unreal. It's on real, but that's the standard and it's fully accepted. And that's just the machismo the male line there. It's so homophobic. You cross your legs or you do anything that's considered not macho, and you're instantly labeled as weak or soft and or gay, and then you're preyed upon as someone who can be made fun of or stolen from, or a chump or

It's all so terrifying, the whole idea of the eggshells you're walking on and having to learn a whole new, twisted culture and programming, and it's got to stop. I mean, being sent to prison shouldn't mean being tortured. There should be some some dignity in this process. And that is it's an affront to should be in front of everybody's sensibility and everybody's sense of fairness so great, So here's

Go ahead and then I'll fill in the blanks.

So, having read the story, it was at that time that your brother, I think his name is pronounced Kavon, correct, right, your brother Kavon began weeping at the dinner table and

Well, just to give you, I guess an abbreviated step by step timeline there.

So after that evening, you know, my father.

And brother, sisters. Eventually they came and saw me and and told me what occurred, and I said, okay, well, this is what we should do now. Eventually it led to affidavits reciting his statements, the confession to stabbing the two individuals being included in emotion what they call a four forty motion in New York, which is what you do after direct appeal to get facts off the record in and that was filed and that resulted in a hearing.

But wait a minute before before we get to that. Yeah, I'm at a loss to imagine what that meeting was like. Was it both of your parents that came to the prison to tell you this news?

No, my dad, Yeah, my mom was in Chicago at that time.

So your dad comes to the prison and tells you that, in fact, your brother had admitted that it was he who had committed this crime for which you have now had eight years of your life stolen from you in the most terrible way. I mean, what was that like.

Well, different people will have different reactions if they were in my position, But for me, I can tell you it was simply a feeling of relief.

I just felt relieved.

Because now you could see light at the end of the tunnel. Yes, well, that's logical. You didn't feel rage.

It was relief for a while, did come. I mean I did throughout the years that followed up, you know, possibly up until just a few years ago. I don't talk to my brother right now for variety reasons. Obviously you know this is what happened here is one of them. But in the beginning, for at least a few months, it was just relief.

It was just relief. You know.

I was sitting there, stuck in prison, and I couldn't I just couldn't figure out why I'm there or how, you know, how the state could have so much power over an individual's liberty with without without providing enough circuit breakers, enough safety nets, you know, And I'm still.

There, amazingly, as fate would have it. On September twenty third, two thousand and eight, which was your thirty third birthday, right, Yeah, you got the best birthday present you could imagine.

I definitely did you want to talk about that? Well, I was upstate, you know where was I at this time? I think I was at a Sing Sing correctional facility, and they called me down to white planes and I walked out in front of the judge on September twenty three. Meanwhile, I had a retrial ordered by this time, but it was just a retrial, and I think the prosecutor stepped up and just said we would not oppose defendant's ro

So the judge cut me loose, got me loose.

Right then in the court room, and I was in this state issued clothing, and I'm still surrounded by these officers, you know, like a sergeant, you know, a couple of muscle bound officers all surrounding me with handcuffs. And I couldn't believe it.

So what happened? Did they take the handcuffs off right then and there? But then you had to still change. It was like you walk out into the daylight wearing a correction of the uniform.

Right at they gave me what's called a court uniform, which is like, I guess it's always tight jeans. They always give somebody two sizes too small. But so it was tight jeans like from the eighties.

You know.

So wait a minute, but you're in the courtroom, in the courtroom, but you were still dressed in the.

State issued clothing.

Yeah, at what point did you change into these two tight jeans?

Oh?

Oh, right before I got into court, they say, here's a beige sweatshirt and jeans. Here, you can put them on so you don't have to go in front of the judge in your prison greens.

Okay, so at that moment you almost collapse, right, but you didn't, And then did the courtroom break out? That moment must be etched in your memory permanently.

I mean, well, if you take it back about one minute before the judge said that, you have an officer sitting down on my right side, an officer sitting down on my left side, and an officer behind me.

And as they walk you in, well.

One guy you know who feels like he has like the hand of a gorilla strength, you know, always the case has a hand on your shoulder, and they're walking you to the chair. Sit down here, look forward, don't turn to the right, don't turn to the left. And to be honest with you, they they mean that, don't turn your head to the right. Don't turn your head to the left. And I've seen people upstate or in the prison facilities. You know, if you turn your head,

You know.

They don't just take you down, you get a beat down. So I'm sitting in this chair and then have officer like you can feel the breath on the back of your neck of these officers just waiting to take down a convicted violent felon for even moving your head to the right. And that was how it was until the judge said ro rd And so I turned to my lawyer and I said, can I can I stand up?

Can I'm free to go?

And he says yes, and all the officers stand up, and I get up and I say, you're on or I can leave. She says yes, you can leave, and I turn the officers and I say I can go out.

Go out that door? Can I go out that door? And I had to make sure.

Because I felt I felt it was unreal.

And your parents and family in the courtroom, yeah.

They started crying.

So I actually walked over back of them in the seat and I said, don't cry this, you know, this is a beautiful moment.

Should be happy.

And so I tried to be strong for them, and I tried myself not to cry, because you know, I didn't want it to turn into one big weeping fest, and you know, I wanted I wanted to see some smiles on their face. You know, care about Tom, I love them.

And so.

We got up and left, and I left with my sisters and they took me to immediately, they took me to the mall to get Bear jeans, and you know, that was that was a very interesting moment as well, because they're picking out jeans for me, you know, because my style is ten years outdated, and I'm trying these jeans on it and they're all tight, and I'm telling them, I think this is really tight on my you know, my butt, and they're like, listen, it should be a lot tighter.

We're letting you go with that. That's the style now.

And so I was like okay, and I tried them on. I walked out and took me a few weeks to realize that that was probably just ordinary geens right there, as opposed to nineteen ninety nine when everybody was wearing more loose stuff. And so I got used to it, still going ten years later.

So you ultimately graduate college and go to law school, not just any law school, NYU law school.

So let me correct you on that one. So I went to NYU underbred and I graduated with honors. For law school, I went to Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School, which is Yeshiva University's grad school. You know, that's also the home of the Innocent Project, of course, and that that's my that's my law school.

Yeah, so you went to NYU. You went from Community College, Pleasantville, waiting Tables, maximum security prison, unbelievab ordeal and saga to NYU, one of the hardest schools in the world to get into and graduate with honors, and then to Cardozo Law School, which is the home of the Innis's Project, which is again a top top law school. And then you pass the bar, which is again I mean, that's an incredible accomplishment for anyone, much less someone who if your brain

That is correct.

Yes, incredible. It's an incredible, incredible story. And you've won one lawsuit right already for yourself, for myself. Yeah, right, And now you're representing clients, including one whose story has kept me up at nights since you told me about it. And I don't know if you're at liberty to talk about that case. But what's really nuts to me is that Keon now finds himself representing a case that is eerily similar to his own.

That is true, Absolutely, I see a lot of things in common with my case there. It's part of the reason which drives me to help this man out.

Are you able to talk about that? I know it's an ongoing case, so.

It's an ongoing case.

I think the case you're talking about I'm wearing a T shirt right now, right, is that it?

Yes, So it's free free Darwin, just like it sounds the ar Wyn broke r Oque dot com.

Yeah, that has a little information about the case and what we're trying to do for Darwin.

And so I mean, this case, it seems like, has a very eerie resemblance to your own, you know, with the difference being that in this case someone was it was a stabbing but it was actually someone who was killed. And Darwin has been in prison even longer than you were, and it's still fighting for his freedom.

Yeah, he's going on quite a long time now, but you know he's a strong individual, so hopefully he can get through this and result will be something equitable and just for him at least to gain his freedom again.

And it's an important part of your story too, So I want to talk about this because this is where it's so important that people like you exist and are able to spend the time and devote the brain power and the energy and the inspiration, draw on your own experience to help somebody who was wrongfully convicted and is now serving a terrible sentence in a terrible place. And this is a guy who was a young up and comer, right entrepreneur, entrepreneur running a pet store, write his own

I would love nothing more than to see that.

For the people listening, what can they do to help Darwin?

To help Darwin? Well, you know, we have to hire a gang expert. It was exclusive to New York and investigators and all these things cost money. And when you go to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's like pushing a rock up a mountain. It requires so much effort because courts are really not receptive generally, so it requires a lot of effort and a lot of money. So on the website, if someone would like to donate, it's right there. None of it will go to me. I don't charge

So in a nutshell, people please go to free Darwinroque dot com and see how you can get involved and help Kion in this remarkable effort that he's putting forth on behalf of this innocent man who finds himself in these strangely Twilight Zone esque circumstances that you found yourself in twenty years ago or so. Ken, we have a tradition here on Ronfuel Conviction, which is that I like to turn the mic over to you, the star of our show today, for any closing thoughts.

Well, if folks are out there listening, obviously they expressed an interest in the criminal justice system, are the injustice that's occurring within that system. If you feel to help out, there's always ways, and it doesn't always require giving money, although every little bit does help as well. Reach out to some folks and you know, if you're really interested in helping the movement, because there's plenty of folks still in jail for things they did not do. I think

Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR