#036 Jason Flom with Lorenzo Johnson

I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

I was naive enough to believe that I would be able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't be going to prison because I was a good person. I hadn't done anything wrong.

In the back of your mind, you say, well, when we go to a hearing or we go to court, the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected from the lower.

Courts all the way up to the United States Supreme Court.

You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, in that moment, unchecked authority. Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them on TV, because it may just be a dirty da that is trying to rise upward.

This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I'm very excited to have as our guest today an extraordinary man, a gentle giant of a person, actually, Lorenzo Johnson.

Lorenzo Johnson's life changed on December fifteenth, nineteen ninety five, he and Corey Walker were charged with murdering Taraj Williams in Harrisburg.

Twenty two years in prison for Lorenzo Johnson, a crime he says he didn't commit.

And in twenty twelve, the federal Appeals Court released him from prison, saying there was insufficient evidence.

He went home to New York for five months, but had to go back to prison after the Attorney General appealed. But for the first time in two decades, investigators have turned over the original police report and it raises new questions. Johnson says it's key evidence he should have had it as trial. For the first time, he found out police took fingerprints at the crime scene. He also learned Carla Brown, a key witness against him during his trial, was once

Now he walks free the court's agreeing with him after a long battle. The judge accepted Johnson's no contest pleased to a lesser charge of third degree murder, and he now begins immediate parole.

He's anxious to be free again.

Lorenzo, thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you for having me.

Lorenzo, your story is insane. I can say that, and you actually lived through it. You know. The more I've learned about you and your story, the more incredible I find it that you have this amazing spirit and this calm demeanor after having gone through this unimaginable nightmare. It's it's crazy. So let's let's go back to the beginning. You're a New Yorker like me from Yonkers. What was life growing up like in Yonkers?

A nice life for Bencus. You know, as a kid, I box for the Police Athletic League. I did that for a couple of years. You know, I want to kick close the Junior Olympics in New York.

So you grew up boxing, living a pretty normal life. You weren't like a hoodlum or anything. You didn't get any real trouble, no violent felonyhing. Some people say, well, if he got caught up in the system, he must have been a bad guy in the first place. No, you didn't have any kind of history like that whatsoever. And yet you end up getting caught up in this vicious machine, this criminal justice machine. So this case was a murdered case. Taraj Williams was killed outside the bar

I know him full, seen him around, but didn't know him as far as like to call him a friend or anything like that. And I wasn't there when it happened, like I wasn't in the state, so I had no knowledge of what was going on or.

What took place.

Oh, you were a couple hundred miles away in New York?

Is that?

And one of the crazy things is that you could have proven, if you had access to proper attorneys, that you had driven back from New York because you had to received from the turnpike or even a camera right that a camera that could have still shot. If somebody would have just pulled that up, it would have proved that it was impossible for you to have committed this murder, because you know, you can't be in two places at

You know, I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. And the reason I fell into the hand of a corrupt detective the day at the side took place. Me and a group of friends came to New York and we left Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, between three and four o'clock in the afternoon, and we didn't come back until four or

So Basically they wanted to keep you where they could have leverage over you, right, because while you're in jail, they're gonna make you think, mall, maybe I should play ball with these.

Guys exactly, And that didn't take place. When I went to my primary hearing, the case was dismissed. And you know, I didn't do no running because I was innocent. So like two weeks later, two to three weeks later, they arrested me again. This time I was in the store and they came and they locked me up, and I looked at wanted to come up to take and I say, you're coming at me with this again?

He said, no, it belongs to.

You now, and he had a futuitive warrant for me for conspiracy to commit murder.

So at the time, you were working in the furniture store and just sort of going along with sort of a normal life, right, no ideas of anything that could this could possibly happen to you, right, But who would ever think that something like this could happen to you? And that's that's one of the reasons I'm so glad you're here and you haven't been out for that long. When did you get out?

Two months July eleventh.

July eleventh, twenty seventeen. And I'm telling you, I want everyone to understand that if this could happen to you, it could happen to just about any would right, yes, And so now this cop has a vendetta against you because you wouldn't wrongfully identify somebody that you know. They just wanted you to basically pull somebody out of it and solve their problem. And then they're gonna let you go.

Yeah, it's like it's like unreal at first, because you believe in the system. In the back of your mind, you say, well, when we go to a hearing or we go to court, the truth will come out. That's what innocent prisons think in our heads, like when stuff like this happened, and.

In my situation.

Every time I went to court, something different would take place, like, you know, one of my alibi witness a turnover, and there'd be a witness for the prosecution. And I have no idea why did they, you know, change the statement.

Because there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes that you can't possibly know about.

And you know, when I came to prison, I was a little bit education wise. You know, I achieved my ged while I was in prison, I got college credits while I was in prison, and I taught myself the law while I was in prison, because later on in my case, I wind up representing myself for three years.

So now things are getting really squirrely because there was a witness who actually had been a suspect, right, and should have actually probably been, I mean, somebody that the cops took a much closer look at, but for some reason they decided to get off of her and put it all on you. And then there you would have somebody who's a very incentivized witness, right, I mean, she's trying to not go to prison for the rest of

In my situation, I never had a statement from the chief witness. We was told that this witness never made a statement, so we never had access to this witness statement. We didn't get access to the witness statement to eighteen and a half years later, and by this time I was remanded back from my freedom from the United States Supreme Court.

Right, And that's an important part of your story. One of the things that's so crazy and crazy as a mild word for it about your case is that, yeah, I mean, you had a Brady violation. And people listen to the show know that the Brady violation means that the prosecution did not turn over evidence that they had that would have been favorable to your case to the defense, and that that's been outlawed by the Supreme Court n

Once I come back and they turn over this withheld information, we finally found out that the prosecution from day one knew I was innocent and let force testimony go uncorrected from the lower courts all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. In the United States Supreme Court,

Wow, then your situation gets crazier and crazier. You had been for a total of how long by the time you were freed sixteen and a half years sixteen and a half years is now twenty twelve. You come out into a world that's changed a lot, and you're trying to figure out, I'm sure, how to get back on your feet and get started again having been through this incredible ordeal. But then you come out and an unbelievable thing happens, right, and this is I mean, what we

Yeah, it was.

I came home on January eighteen, twenty twelve, and once I you know, reintegrated with my family, I began working and Jeffrey Desovitch, you know, I met him right before I came home, and his foundation helped me with reentry and stuff like that, and you know he was showing me, you know, he was bringing me with him on speaking engagements and things of that nature. And uh, we formed a nice bond. So one day I was at work

I have to go back to prison.

Is every zonay worst night, man, you know, especially after going through the ordeal I went through the first time, and now you got to go back and fight again. So you know, all types of stuff is running through your head, but everything is not registering because you go numb. At first, You're like, nah, this is not true, Like it gotta be something we could do to, you know, make him see, you know, are innocent.

And the grounds that what.

I was released song was under insufficient evidence. That's equivalents a not guilty verdict and bars the retrial. It's basically a judicial exoneration. And there was no retrial. They had one appeal left, and that was in the United States Supreme Court, and my case was relisted three times, and which is odd because you know, Supreme Court really normally

So, you know, once again, I'm numb to it.

That the fact that I'm at work and I go drive down to Jeffrey Deserpus Foundation in Midtown. I would just drive down there and I had my future wife meet me down there, and stuff was down and I went in there and that was I was just numb because they knew what took place. I quote before I got there, and I just sat there, and you know, it was like I was in space somewhere for a little while, Like I sat in the back room for

No way in the world would I.

Think that I would have to go back to prison for a crime I didn't commit for a second time.

Oh yeah, I mean, you've already been exonerated. It's it's just it sounds like double jeopardy. It sounds like a nightmare that nobody who hasn't been through it could possibly understand. So let's talk for a minute about this crazy experience that you had as a person who had grown up ironically boxing in the police, athletically and everything else, and being sent to prison for life. Right, that's a surreal

It's very strindous, Like I say it, that's solitary confinement. Well shattered anybody's psyche. You're in the cell twenty three and one. The light doesn't go off and it stays on all day. The walls is all white. You know, you start to see things after a while. A lot of people do do their time different Me and myself. I was an avid reading writer once I got my education, So the majority of time that I'm in the cell, I'm either working out on writing, on reading some mail that I got, and.

I balanced my day.

A lot of people, you know, don't have that balance, and they don't have things to do, so they'll sit there and then they'll.

Start freaking out after a while.

Or some guys, you know, they get a hooked on medication and they will never be the same person once they family see him again. And this could go on for long periods of time. And I want to bring this to the attention in Pennsylvania. It's not like New York where you could go see the parole board. A life sensus in Pennsylvania is a life sentens. Natural life is no in betweens.

Right, So you literally have nothing to look forward to except for more of this torture. But how did you end up in solitary confinement in the first place?

Being from New York?

I got a couple of tussles when I first got there, not in major with minor, and that led to me being sent to RHU restricted housing unit.

Was this because people were picking a fight with you or try to attack you, or it's.

Very geographical over there, and then being from a state and out of your own from New York is like it's on?

Is more of that in the prison? Unfortunately?

A lot of times, like if you let things go, you'll be preyed upon a lot.

Right, you either have to stand up for yourself and then take the wrath of the authorities. We're going to put you in this solitary confinement hole that you know you may never recover from. But at the same time, you don't really have any choice, you know. So how long were you in solitary confinement, for I.

Spread sometimes ninety days almost six months.

Ninety days or six months is such a long time when we think about ninety days and the outside right of doing anything ninety days or six months in a tiny cell with white walls, like I said, and the fact that the light doesn't go off like that's just torture, Like that should be outlawed under the Geneva Convention. I mean, that's crazy, Like why why is that nest necessary?

I mean?

And do you even have a sense of time in there? Do you have a clock? No clock?

Basically, once you're there, you could tell the time we shift change in recreation, what time they feeds you, what time the medication come on the block. So pretty much you know, you become in tune with your environment.

Can you describe what a typical day is like in solitary confinement, because it's just it's unimaginable to me that, I just I can't.

Well, does paint your bathroom white and sit inside.

Of it for twenty four hours and then you get a sense, right, except probably I'm guessing the typical person listening to that bathroom is probably nicer, right, at least has.

A couple of ye a little compared to what's going on in.

There, right. And it's interesting too and sort of scary to note that one of the judges ruling on your appeal dissented, saying, this is a quote. I dissent from that portion of the majority's decision which upholds the conviction of Lorenzo Johnson for first degree murder and criminal conspiracy. The judge continued by saying, I believe there is no direct evidence, nor can any be inferred linking defendant Johnson to the death of Taraja Williams, nor any agreement with

That judge is brad Lee Schill, and that decision came out in nineteen ninety eight from the Pennsylvania Superior Court. He's now the federal judge. That decision he made. That was the first judge that ever made a ruling on my insufficient evidence claim in my whole appeal process.

And so the federal court released me on that ground.

All the other judge that was on the panel with them, all of them went.

With the trial judge.

They believed they suck with the child judge decision, and it took from ninety eight to twenty twelve for them to come up with this decision from the Third Circuit Court of Appeals.

So it's amazing that in spite of the fact that it took two years for you to even get the trial, two years in a jail waiting for your trial, but then the trial. I mean, they didn't really take their time in convicting you, and the Supreme Court there certainly didn't take its time in reversing your exoneration. They did it in one day.

My trial was only two and a half days.

Two and a half days for a lifetime in prison.

They felt four people, the victim family never got justice. My family suffered the injustice. Krey Walker family suffered an injustice in society as a whole. You got innocent people in prison. Why the person who did it is on the street.

In this case, there was not only one piece of exculpatory evidence that was withheld from your defense, right, there was a lot. And I'm going to go through the list, okay, and you can jump in any time you want, but this is some of the things that were not turned over that should have been turned over, that are required to be turned over by the law. A discrediting statement to the police by the one eyewitness, Carla Brown, which you and your attorneys were told didn't exist, But it did,

The first A pages my discovery was missing, along with a couple hundred other pages. And once we did get the first A pages, we saw that their witness was labeled suspect in the same homicide.

Okay, that's deep, that's deep.

That's deep.

But there's more. There were new statements by other witnesses that showed that miss Brown, Carla Brown, the same person we're talking about, the only person that matters in this particular situation. Here was an addict at the time of the murder and may have been involved herself, which gave her, of course, the ultimately incentive to cooperate with the police.

Right, you had two.

Other witnesses that they had that put Hug in the alleyway when the shot was fired. Two of their witnesses said that they believe it was Hunt in the alleyway with him. That strengthens their own case that you know that this person was a suspect, whereas you have one witness against me, but you have three witnesses.

This pointed finger the other way.

And there were statements by witnesses who said that they did not see you there exactly. So I'm picturing the scales of justice right now, right and it seems like it's all tipped to one side, and that side is you go home while we go look for the person that did this.

What happened was, like I told you earlier, every step of my case, things started changing, like my alibi witness one on recandidate statement and turned into.

The motive witness for the case.

My case was bounced over because a jacket was supposed to be stolen from my co defendant.

Now This is from the plenary hearing to trial.

It was bound over because the deceased was supposed to stole the jacket from my co defendant. Once my alibi witness recantiate her statement. Now they became at trial over a drug debt, so it was a varianson indictment because they changed the reason why it was boundley for court and they bought a whole new theory.

In listening to this story, sounds like something that could only happen in the country where they really don't believe in the system of laws.

It's hard when, like I said, when you go on against the prosecution, they got endless resources. It's like when you inno sense, like trying to breathe underwater. When you think they've done, they're not done. Something new comes up in well.

And this is so crazy because they kept getting thrown more pieces of information, all of which led to the same conclusion, which is that you were innocent. And every time they got another one of these pieces of evidence, they had to come up with new lives in order to keep this case alive and in order to bury you in the way that they did. And it's crazy to me that everyone knows that You're not allowed to

When you're telling the truth, you can stand on it.

But when you're telling the lies, like when you pour water on dirt, he's just gonna turn the mudget and you step on it, just gonna keep caving in and caving in and caving in. And this is what took place, and it's still taking place.

And it's terribly common what happened to you, I mean, as much as it's uncommon, because in your case, you were wrongfully convicted twice. But what is not uncommon about your case is the incidence of prosecutorial suppression of sculpatory evidence. What we've been talking about the Brady violation. I did

It's a shame, and they believe it or not.

That's more more bitter about that time being incarcerated.

Wow, And you know I'm bitter.

I'm very bitter about that because basically, my trust in the judicial system been shattered ever since the United States Supreme Court made that ruin against me in twenty twelve, And every time one of your pill gets denied as an innocent prisoner, and when you're serving the life centers of big numbers a part of your family member dies because they feel that they never going to see you again.

So my period of time twenty.

Two years is like and then them getting a chance to be united with me after sixty and a half years, and then that's taken back from them.

You can see your family's pain and how can I say it? You want to bring it to an end.

And that's what they really forced my hand, because I could have went in one The only thing is the cross, the pill. Another three and a half to five years waiting and you hoping that another judge don't do nothing crazy, which happened to me already. So you know it's like should I put my faith back in them or should I just tuck and roll and go ahead and live

Now, how is this possible? I didn't mysteriously come to court.

I'm down here because of misconduct and the judge of what what the evidentiary hemorrhage because of that, you know, I'm sitting back on the streets for a second time coming from a natural life sentence.

I'm not here for good behavior. I'm here because it.

Was issues that had merit on them that I was innocent, But I was forced to take this polea bargain or gamble with the judicial system again. And how can I say? Like, it's a bittersweet, like a lot. Every day I wake up, I regret it. But at the same time, it's like people that have been in my shoes, they know what it is. It's easy for somebody to say what they would do, what they won't do. But you know, like I said earlier, I went through everya z Armie, worst

And the prosecution knows this.

Well. They have so much power, so it's so tilted, and nobody can fault you for making the decision that you did when you know you were already framed twice. Why would you believe that the system's going to be fair the third time? You know exactly? And again, I mean, you're somebody who cares deeply about your family and your community. You want to be out here for them. What the hell are you going to do? I mean, it's hard for me to even hear this stuff because yeah, I

I mean, is deep and like you know, emotions it flairing here and there with people in my position. They don't get me wrong, Like, it doesn't stop me from doing what I gotta do.

I don't look at myself different. I'm just bitter that I had to go through that.

And that's a big problem that's going on, that's being swept under the rugs. It's a lot of innocent people that's being forced to take.

Please.

Yeah, because I've been forced to take a no contest plea to maintain my innocence. By the end of the day, I still got a phoney on my jacket because this is a part of a plea. Though I didn't I didn't plead guilty, but you still got the conviction on me.

It's like that they got their last little digging you after you know, they didn't like you proving them wrong basically, and they decided to take one more shot at you.

And being vocal like, like I told you, in Pennsylvania, you don't have that. Besides, Mamabu Jamore, you won't hear a prison in Pennsylvania with ties of social media the way I had ties to social media of them coming to see me on a visit in prison, you know, and things of that nature. They you know, you can't bring a camera into prison in Pennsylvania.

So the only you know, social media and.

People from Fox and ABC that was coming to see me, they had to come see me with pay the paper. But you know, when they see stuff like, they don't like that. And my whole thing is why you don't like it?

Because the exploit what's going on, Yeah, exposes them for doing things that they've been getting away with for a long time that they can't get away with anymore, or they're going to be They're gonna be more Lorenzo Johnson's and a lot and none of us want to see that. I would like to get your advice because many people who listen to this show want to know what they

Let's just say, law students, you know, law students, they should review a wrong for conviction case just to get an idea of what's out there. And why I say that is like my trial attorney was fresh out of school and here it is represent me on a natural life sentence.

I was facing. Was very green to what was going on, and everything literally flew overhead.

Wrongful convictions need to be paid heavily attention to for the last three years, it had record numbers of his oonerations and.

A lot of people acts.

But why do guys spend so long in prison because they constantly fight you. The average innocent prison that's fortunate to be exonerated spends between thirteen and a half to fifteen.

Years in prison.

Wrongful convictions need to be fought not only inside the courtroom, but outside of the courtroom, as far as what you could do. Your vote counts. Pay attention to when someone is his oonerated, Pay attention to why does district attorney still have their job after they was found lible of intentionally convicting an innocent person.

I really think that's such an important message for our audience. And you have a website too, right, what's your website?

It's free Lorenzo Johnson dot org.

Lorenzo was talking earlier about how there were so many good people that got active and got involved, and it all starts with you, right, because you had the energy and the sense and the and the you know, you educated yourself. You created basically a movement that ended up involving people from all fifty states and fifty three countries who all wrote letters on your behalf. That's incredible. I mean, to be able to do that from inside of prison

It definitely gives you, you know, it gives you energy because you got people that take their time out, they data write you. You got people that fight for you that you never saw before in your life.

You know.

You got people that come to your rallies, you know, and they demanding release and they never met you before.

Lorenzo, this has been an extraordinary experience and I can't thank you enough for sharing your story with me and the audience. We have a tradition here at Wrong for Conviction, which is that I like to just turn it over to you in case there's anything else that you want to share, any thought at all about anything. I just turned the microphone over to you and let you go.

I'm a firm believer now that you know. All I know is the fight in justice. So you know, when I meet other Azana rees such as Kean Anthonys, Jeffrey Dsovich, the Derek Hamilton's a lot of these people I never met before, but by reading the articles and things that I need to. But we all share the same thing

Why do you elect an office?

And if a district attorney has a checker past, why pitiment office?

That's like the fox got gardener hens the end house.

No, And I'm glad you mentioned that it's so important to get out of voting your local district attorney's races. Your vote means a lot because most people don't vote in those races, and you can make such a difference just by taking out the corrupt characters and replacing them with people who actually believe in the rule of law and believe in doing the right thing.

Have you ever noticed like when you have a corrupt cop, you always see, oh the screeze cops such and such, such and such, he's blasted all over the place. But when you see a district attorney who was found liable for wrongfully convicting someone, the story goes away. They're still in office. You don't hear anything else.

What else can I say, Lorenzo, I mean, this has really been an amazing experience to be with you. I'm so happy to see you here.

I'm here, I'm here, and I'll be back.

And once again, it's free Lorenzo Johnson dot org. So it's free, Lorenzo Johnson dot org. Go to the website learn more about it, and thank you for listening to this extraordinary episode of wrongful conviction. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.