#022 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch and Obie Anthony (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017)

With the police banging on the door open up.

The choice to be in that lineup was the last choice that made as a free man. A year later, I ended up writing the system.

I'm going to be one of those people who everyone in the world is going to think as a monster or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, and I'm just going to have to come to peace with that.

Somebody was able to look at my picture in the database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they might have to play in my hanging.

They had been told that two.

Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.

Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man, all help broke loose.

But Welcome to another episode of Ronful Conviction with Jason Flamm. This is part two of the San Diego series, where we'll be doing shorter interviews than usual because we have so many incredible people here at the Ennisis Network conference. Today, I'll be interviewing Christine Bunch and Ob Anthony.

The tragedy for Christine Bunch began in nineteen ninety five when a fire in this Greensburg mobile home killed her three year old son.

The mother who spent nearly seventeen years in prison for arson and murder after state fire investigators hit evidence.

That could have cleared her, Christine Bunch has maintained her innocence all.

Along years of anguish for a crime she says she did not commit.

Now over all charges were eventually dropped against Christine Bunch after the original report surface.

And Indiana mother who spent sixteen years in prison in the killing of her young son is free tonight after charges against her are dropped. Christine, welcome, Thank you. We are in the Sunshine in San Diego where we are broadcasting from the Innocence Network, which is a conference where we bring together this year. I think we have two hundred dexonrees. Yes, we do, with people from the movement, social workers, attorneys, counselors, teachers, law students, law students, press.

It's incredible and you can kizz.

And you are right in the middle of it. I don't know your energy is so incredible. So Christine was wrongfully convicted in one of the worst possible scenarios, which is that she lost her child. Her three year old son, Anthony, was killed in a fire in your home. And we know now, and I think they knew then that the arson science is not really science. Not only did they know that, but also they really knew that this was

I was twenty one and a single mother, working, going to school, and I had my three year old, and so my life was just busy and full.

And one morning I woke up.

And was surprised because I thought it was foggy in the house, and in truth, it was on fire. And it takes a minute for your brain to realize what's happening what you're doing in that moment, because you're just frozen with fear, and it's like your mind goes blank. And then it's like you're running through mud trying to figure out what do I do? And I'm throwing things on it because you always hear in school, but we don't realize that the materials we use now are synthetics

I've got to do something.

So then I broke a window with his tricycle and tried to climb in, and by that time the flames were coming through the roof. They took me to the hospital, and of course I'm asking did you find him? Because I couldn't find him. It never occurred to me that he wasn't coming out alive. And that simple statement was used against me at my trial because I asked, did you find him? Like they said, I knew he was already dead, but you just don't think that things will happen to you like that.

There's nothing in the phrase did you find him that says to me, did you find a dead body? I mean exactly. They twist these things in so many ways, and it's so weird too. I Mean we see over and over again in wrongful conviction cases, especially cases like yours, where they say, well, you didn't react the way we think you should have. You were too upset, you weren't upset enough. I mean, how is anyone supposed to know how you're going to react. Everyone reacts differently in all

Right, I mean you're always taught the police or your friends they're going to find out the truth. You know, they would never do anything wrong. So I went to court thinking I'm going to go home, They're going to see the truth.

They're going to see me that I didn't do this.

And then when they said guilty, I was just in shock.

I just blanked.

Everybody's trying to ask me questions on the way out going to the police station, and I mean, I'm still registering what they just said to me, let alone trying to answer your question.

So I'm just looking at them and it's just a blur.

Right, And this is in Christine. This is what we see on TV all the time, right, the people that's at the cameras, the reporter's yelling yes, yeah, they're all and now they're all part of this mob mentality. Right, You're stuck in a nightmare that would be unimaginable to anyone who hasn't been through a day. Then you're sent to prison, sentenced to I.

Was sentenced to sixty years for murder, fifty for arson, and they ran them concurrently, so it was just the sixty years.

Just sixty, just sixty, right, and you were twenty one, so had eighty one you would have come out on your walker and maybe maybe if you were prolled. So you go to prison and.

Go to prison, and now you're pregnant. I am pregnant.

I was released on bond when it came back the test results came back that it wasn't gasoline because they thought I'd use gasoline to set the fire. So when those results came back negative for gasoline, my judge put me out on bond.

I would have seemed like an appropriate time to drop the charges, but they decided to put you out on bond.

They put me out on bond, and.

I feel like it wasn't the best thing, but the best thing came out of it, because when I came out, I was doing all the wrong things. I was taking whatever anybody gave me. I was drinking. I honestly didn't care if I woke up. I lost everything. I mean, finding out I was pregnant with Tony changed my life, and I changed my life to take care of my son and give him everything that I.

Could give him.

And when I lost him, I didn't want to live. I wanted to be numb. I didn't want to feel, and so I was very reckless. And I met a guy and spent some time with him, and he was feeding me whatever.

I wanted to be numb.

And then I started getting really sick and found out that I was pregnant, and I didn't think that I could have anymore. So that was kind of my miracle moment, and I changed everything and started focusing on fighting because I had a son to fight for.

I had something to live for at that moment.

And this is a really I think interesting part of the story in that you gave birth in prison. Yes, And as we spoke about before, there's different protocols in different places in the country, in the world. There's no good answer for how do you deal with a baby in prison and having a child yanked away, whether it's on twenty four hours in as what happened to you, yeah, or three years later like those that last period of time like counting down the minutes or the second I

Yes, you're going back to the facility and the baby's going home.

Yeah.

My family took my son and they had him right over to the prison because I passed them on my way back out to be transferred to the facility, and both of us weren't supposed to be released until the next day. So I passed my dad and I'm I'm sobbing and telling him, don't leave my baby here.

I can't lose another baby. You got to get my baby.

So the doctor that actually delivered him helped my family to get a car seat and blankets so they could take him right then because they had everything for the next day, and then he brought him straight over to the prison so that I would know that they had him, and I did have to worry.

That was at least a small blessing that you were able to have family and know that your baby son was going to be taken care of and protected and loved, and you got to have visitation with him ten hours a month. Was that how it worked out?

You get ten hours a month in the regular visiting room where you can't really do anything. You have to be sitting in a chair, so I could hold him on my lap, But it took a while for us to change the policy where I could get on the floor and do blocks with him on the table or cars. But when I first got there, you sat in the chair. Your family went and got chips or a coke for you.

That couldn't be done in the visiting room.

So I didn't really have any hands on until six months in when they opened the Family Present program and our children could come in for one on one visits with us, and so then I got an extra ten hours a month just for him.

Yeah, that's and that's something I want to highlight is that these programs in the prisons that provide a little glimpse of humanity in an otherwise cold and cruel and purely punitive system that we have here is so important. And in your case, I can see you lighting up talking about it. I mean, what a difference that makes, you know, so, and obviously what a difference it did make, and so ultimately your case was overturned. It was sixteen

Just the new evidence that came out in the case. You know, my son reached an eighty percent carbon monoxide level that was new fire science from a forensic toxicologist. And hearing her say that I was in the very next room and was probably half of that level and hallucinating. Everything's blurry, everything's slow, you're sluggish. I mean that made me feel better because you always think you can do more.

And then finding out they falsified an ATF.

Re board that right there, that was vindication for me, if I'd never walked out, at least I knew that it wasn't it wasn't an arson, he wasn't murdered. It was just an accident, and that I think was the best moment. Walking out was good, but it's scary, and I.

Want to talk about that. And the Center for Wronful Convictions played a big role in your exoneration, so I want to give them respect and from both of us because without them you wouldn't be here. And your advocate was Betsy Marx right as well. So there's a number of heroes in this situation, and ultimately you walked out, and that's what I really want to focus on. Because we're here at the Innocence Network conference and watching people

Yes, very long time.

So what were the things like, how did where did you go? How did you reconnect? And what could we as a society do differently to help others who are coming out after this type of ordeal.

I think it's important for people to know that you don't have to give a whole lot out of your wallet to make a difference for us, if we just had.

People that would give us time.

I mean, I didn't know, and it was like the most embarrassing thing for me. I'm thirty nine years old. It took me ten minutes to get out of the bathroom because they had removed the knobs on the water faucets and I didn't know how to turn it on. I just thankfully finally flicked something automatic.

Yes, so I still have trouble with that.

It came on and I was like, oh my god, and I'm in tears by the time I come out, and there's my brother saying, what's wrong?

Are you sick? Is there a problem? I said, I didn't know how to turn.

On the water, And so things like that make me want to stay at home because I don't want to go out and be embarrassed and tell people I don't know how to do this. I was waiting for a full service gas station and we don't have those anymore. So things that I've never learned how to do, like change my oil or check my entire pressure. I now have to go find somebody to do that, because I can't just pull up and say fill it up, and can you check everything?

Do you remember what time you were actually released?

I want to say it's four or five in the afternoon, and.

What did you do? Where'd you go?

So first we went, I didn't talk to any of those reporters that called me a baby killer, and I gave one interview with Sandra Chapman because she had interviewed me in the prison and helped push my case forward, so she was the only exclusive.

That I gave.

And we went to a park and I got to walk in the grass barefoot, and we had a nice time there. And then we went over to Bistro three ten and I had champagne with my attorneys, and they made me some scallops because seafood was my favorite. They asked what kind of food I wanted. I said colorful, and she said, what do you mean? And I said everything in there is kind.

Of brown and gray and it's just not pretty.

I said, I want to eat vegetables that are colored and nice, and cheese and different kinds of things. So they set me up with hummus and peda and the color not.

All of it. There was a spicy that was kind of red, and I.

Would have gotten a strawberry or maybe like.

I had that for dessert, I had a whole plate of different fruits and cream cheese dip and then whipped cream up.

Was incredible.

Yeah, that sounds incredible. And then you went where.

Then I went to my mother's house where my son was staying, and I was upmost the night because I'd never gotten to see my baby sleep.

That's an incredible visual. And I see you tearing up. I mean, I'm trying not to myself. And now you watch them sleep, you get up the next day. Is it starting to feel real? At that point?

It's feeling real? It's also feeling frightening. I mean, the only thing I have is my literally my prison uniform and white white tennis shoes in a bag. I had no clothes, I have no hygiens. I don't have a toothbrush, and I'm thinking, I have no money. How am I supposed to get these things? I have no vehicle, how am I supposed to get around? And thank goodness, I mean three o'clock in the afternoon, when my brother got

Decisions are so real hard because for.

So long I haven't made any and I'm trying to branch out and get better.

With that, but it's still it's still an issue that I go through.

So we ate and I had a peach frozen margarita and a steak, and then he took me shopping, and so we went into this clothing store and there's all these colors and he's like, what do you want.

Well, I've had nothing but.

White and khaki. I have no idea, and so my eyes bug out and he was like, okay, he said, you go in the fitting room. I'm going to bring you outfits. So he brought me back outfits and the things that I put on and said this fits good, and.

I like this.

They went into the keep pile and everything else went back. And then when we left there, he took me to an old fashioned candy store and got me some candy that we had when we were kids. And then we went to a wine store and I tasted some wine and he picked up a couple bottles of.

That, and then we went to Walmart, and at.

That point, I'm like, wow, you know, I'm over the moon with everything I'm seeing. And Walmart's now Super Walmart. And we go to pick out shampoo and he's like, what do you want? Well, I've only had two choices and there's a whole aisle.

I have no idea. So here's my brother and we're smelling them up and down the aisle. He said, we'll just pick what smells good. So we went through and we found something that I liked.

And so by the time we get through there and I'm like, you know, I need some feminine products. There's a whole isle of that, and he's like, what do you want. Well, I've only had one sixteen years and I don't know. And at this point I'm I'm done. I'm wiped out. I can't speak, and here I start crying. And so he looks at me and he was like, it's okay. He said, my wife uses this, and he puts it in the cart and he said and if you don't like it, he said, we'll come back every

Visiting with him. Yes, it's colorful. And then I ended up spending the night with him. And then the next day.

Is when he took me to the movie theater and I couldn't turn on the water, so he.

Made it good.

And he's the one that between him and my son, they kept me going out instead of hiding in the house and not.

Dealing with people.

And they helped me get my license. I had to have a learner's permit again. They taught me how to build up my credits, how to use the internet.

Social media awesome.

What is your social media? Do you want to plug it on the podcast? Do you want more people to follow you or are you more of a private kind of person.

No, I mean people can follow me. I'm on Twitter, Yeah, with Christine.

Bunch Christine Bunch kri is t I N E b U nch on Twitter.

Yes.

And I do want to talk about your organization, Justice for just Us. Yes, you had a wonderful support group, which was your family, but many people have nothing exactly. People learn for thirty years, they come out, they've got nobody left. It's a catchy name, Justice for just Us what's just us?

Just us is it's a combination. I have one Rivera who's another ex honery. He spent twenty one years and he is in Illinois. I'm in Indiana, and we decided we wanted to do something because people come out and they have no one. You spend forty years in there, most of your families probably died, and there's no one to meet you. There's no one to take you out shopping and do the things that my brother did. So we decided that it was up to us to bring

Everybody can help.

If you have a barber shop, give an exonery a haircut, If you have a clothing shop, give them a new outfit so they can go get do an interview.

So we hope that we can just keep.

Educating through our speaking events and bring people in to help. And even if you give a gift card of twenty dollars. That's a shirt for someone. Sure, that's something easy. You don't have to donate thousands of dollars to make a difference, just taking someone on the bus.

Many people listening probably saying, well, but I don't know how to find that person, So I mean, would you recommend they go to an Innocence project website, maybe a local innocence project website, or because they are innstance projects all around the country.

Absolutely, you can go to any of the NISNCE Projects websites and find ways that you can volunteer and help and help with our exoneries. Our Facebook page is just is iss four and it's the number just us.

Okay, so it's just is justis the number four just us on Facebook.

Oh we also have a website under that name as well.

Okay, good, so get involved. Christine Bunch has been our wonderful, amazing guest today. Thank you. You can't see her smile, but she has a magnetic smile and if you were here with me, you would absolutely want to give her a hug, which is exactly what I'm going to do as soon as we get off the air. So thank you Christine again for being here. And for sharing your experience, strength and hope. And now let's get right into it with the one and only Obie Anthony.

Anthony and Cole were convicted twenty years ago of a shooting death in South.

LA back in nineteen ninety four.

Anthony's legal team says a pinpoint of the finger at the two men.

They were released four years ago after a key witness with Candida's testimony.

The pimp later Recanaida's story.

Their lawyers then found out an La Times reporter had taken home shellcasings from the murder scene that could have pointed to another suspect.

Prosecutors and police refused to admit that they did anything wrong.

In this case.

There was not one piece of physical evidence and that's the key. That's what the police did wrong in this case. They ignored the evidence of innocence and twisted the evidence to point towards guilt because they wanted to clear a case.

The two detectives that helped put ob Anthony and his co defended behind bars, one still works for the LAPD.

According to Obi Anthony's lawyers and the judge that exonerated him, evidence showed they were never here the night of the killing.

Oh be welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

You were sentenced to life in prison.

Life without the positive parole.

Yeah, life like the no joke version of life.

Yeah, like some life life and like the one that you know, we're not even talking about talking to you forever, like it's no parole.

And you were framed.

I was actually framed by the detective Marcella Win. They had information from the very onset that me and my codyfriended at the time.

Reggie Cole wasn't involved. It was her.

Plus it was her Win on that end of the bargain because she has in the law, in the eyes of her co workers, are successful incarceration and now it's just pending in a conviction. So it was her who actually framed me.

And how did it come to be that you even became a suspect in this because it's funny looking at you now, I mean you can't see him on the radio, but he's a very dapper individual, very good looking gentleman. You know. Yeah, he's got his here at the at the conference where everybody's kind of casual. He's got the tie and the vest and the sharp looking shirt and everything. So I mean, how did you get wrapped up in

You know, I want to mislead your listeners.

I grew up in the inner city of Los Angeles, California, South central.

I was involved in gangs.

But actually got me involved in this case here that got me wrongfully convicted was because they allegedly got anonymous call saying that a guy made a bad move.

On forty ninth Street and hung up the phone.

From that phone call, the young lady, Marcella Wynn, the caller gave the name of Baby Day. She said that she ran the name Baby Day through the gang database and she she had hits with the name baby Day, but it was multiple hits, and she determined that the Baby Day that she was looking for was a guy named Michael Miller out of all of those Baby Days. And then come to find out he was incarcerated at that time with me. And so that's how they got their hands on my picture.

Well, and this was nineteen ninety four, and yeah, it was a very violent time and they were interested in processing these cases and closing them.

Yeah, correct, that time, you had a news reporter by the name of Mama's Coren who was acting as a follow alone reporter with the LAPD at that time, and that's what he was writing in reporting on in nineteen ninety for was the gang violence in south central Los Angeles and a murder rate in which the Homicide division and in other words, their cases and what they had.

So it was it was, you know, it's amazing.

Unfortunately, this was well, it is common, Yes, I mean common. I'm trying to even find the right word for it. It's like it's pervasive. This kind of behavior among its criminal. I'll call it criminal. It is criminal. It's criminal as it is, as it is common, unfortunately, and the fact is that it's hard for people to understand why and how it goes so wrong when the people who we pay to protect us, that protect and serve right go

Arguably, I mean, he taking consideration, I walked out of the prison.

At the age of thirty seven.

I walked into the institution at the age of nineteen, So you're right, my young adult life was the time for me to have kids. Twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, I think for the woman it cuts it off At twenty eight twenty.

Nine said something about the eggs. I don't know. I don't know if they're true.

Or not, But at some point or another, you have to realize and appreciate the fact that those same dilemmas plague demand too. His count drops, and it drops even more drastically because he's been affected by an institution who's poisoning in him.

You got to take that in mind.

You have some of the most healthier specimens to walk into institutions and come out ridd of with diseases and plague with things. In other words, they can't get rid of why because the medical program that they have inside is designed to do just that break their body down, and so they don't get the healthcare in which the great public think that they're getting.

And that the public is paying for.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess they keep that in mind. In other words, yeah, keep that in mind that the public is paying for. Right, So the public is contributing funds to this institution to ke care of medically mentally these individuals who have been incarcerated. But nevertheless those things are not happening. They're passing out thor zene and cinequons as though it's Halloween and it was candy for trigger treat and we know that thor zene is a medication that they used to lobottomize people.

Yeah, and we had Jason Baldwin on the show. He was talking about the thor Zen Shuffle and how he was avoiding that being placed in that situation at all costs, even at his own extreme risk to his own personal safety, because they offered to put him in there for his own protection. He said, I'm not going to do that.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Reason why it is because he recognized that was part of the mechanisms, in other words, to destroy his body so his spirit wouldn't have the strength to fight to get out. Got to fight to get your body right, and then you fight for everything else.

Let me go back to this though, be because it's always incredible to me the spirit of the people that are in this building right now, right and you're one of two hundred men and women who've been through these unbelievable ordeals. How did you find the strength to continue

An American tradition is American pleasure.

I mean, however, it's a shame for those individuals who has to suffer, but for those individuals who inflict that sufferers a pleasure in their desires.

I hate to think of.

It that way, but not what they're doing, and that's what they've been doing.

And as not as though the resident people of somehow another not even ignorant about those things. They just try to fight against what they're doing, versus creating a situation.

To stop what they're doing. To totally to different kind of thinking.

And it's crazy because we know that in the rest of the civilized world, Western Europe and places like that, they treat incarceration as rehabilitation. We treat it here as punishment. It's and it's it just doesn't make any sense, you know. I often say, like when I'm a politician or somebody like that I'm talking to about these issues, I say, if another country treated our citizens the way we treat

Look, no, no, no, they are so so taking consideration. They are invading us. They are doing it so right now in the local the police department. They got tanks. Yeah, yeah, you're in the local to the police department. They do all of those things. So they are they are raiding us, however, but who they are rating. They are raiding the inner city. And they're raiding the inner city for black bodies and bodies of color, and they putting them in prison for long periods of time.

So you know, they you know, let's not they're doing it.

It's a war on the poor.

Yes, they're doing it.

Yeah, there's no question. But let's go back to that, because I think anyone would say if I was in that situation that you found yourself in, not even like fifteen of life, like life, natural life, your sendence to life, Society said here's what You're going to die in prison? Bye bye. Nobody cares about you. You're gone, right, and you have no resource at your disposal. It's not like you have a rich uncle who's like, I'm gonna hire the best, you know, like, I'm gonna go get you

I gave up on myself.

You gave up on yourself? What do you mean?

I gave up with myself and I relied on the creator. So you found faith wasn't found. Faith didn't have to find it. I just had to give up the you that everyone else has seen and enjoy to you that was always been in me, and that gave me the power to seahope so that I can go towards it. If you all know what's going on in here, you ain't tripping on nothing else. You too busy concerned about the attachments is around you.

So how did how did you find it? When did you find it? Like you didn't you didn't go in as a man.

No, no, no, absolutely.

I found it when the judge called me down, when they called me down to the county jail, I was. I was sitting into the county jail facing life without the possibile parole. It was during that time because they called me down to the county and they told me that I was being charged with a murder, three attempted murders, with three attempt to robbers with special circus.

I was like, what in the world is that. I'm like, are you sure you got the right CDC?

And I'm booking number right there. I mean, like, my last three is six seven six? Is that six seven six? He said, yeah. So I found it the day the judge told me because I was facing the death penty initial that I was facing the death penty and I'm like, and I know that I didn't do it, and I'm facing the death penalty on this side of the gate, and on this side of the gate, I'm looking at life about the possible parole.

So I didn't find anything.

That stuff kind of sport it just you know, that's that that's that I think that's what them Buddha's doing them is in when they're going that thing and they sit in the cave for a little while and they trying to find some kind of enlightenment and they get that boom. Sometimes people happen, they get that boom when they get traumatized because they get hit boll card, they're in an accident, they.

Get that boom. They see the light.

Well, I did get hit Bob back truck didn't hit me physically, but as you see today, it wregged me on his side, crushed every inch of my spirit.

But I rebuilded it though, So you didn't. It's amazing to see you because honestly, and again we're here in person. You're out there listening to his voice, but just running into in the hallways here and stuff. I mean, you got to smile. That lights up the room. Obi's here with his wife who looks like a movie star, you know what I mean, and like it's thank you. Yeah. I mean. So, so, somehow or other, you did prevail. Ultimately,

Like thank you, man, thank you for me saying I got right there, Because again, it's about perception, how you see things.

The way I took it in and the way that I took my generation in.

It wasn't that if justice had finally came and then it was that it had done. No, it was just justice had just begun. And so I was born in that instance, and it gave me a sense of renewing, like, man, I can do this, I can do that.

Knucket, Like why am I gonna be?

Why am I upset with you about this crazy stuff over here when I got the opportunity to use that same energy to be happy in love and kind of like get you figured in places like that, you don't waste your time on nonsense.

Happy times now, Happy time.

Yeah. You came out in twenty eleven, about five and a half years ago. Yes, and now you're here in San Diego. The future looks looks good. I mean, obviously there's still well the scars are not going to heal in five years, are not going to heal in fifteen years. But you're like extremely optimistic and energetic individual. Anybody who bumps into you with the lobby's going to pick up on that, and it's inspiring to everybody that's here to see you up on stage last night dancing with other

It's a major difference in believing and knowing transition. That stage is life. The living is in the know. You live through the know. You survive through the opposite. You survived through that. You survive through your belief because it gets pushed upon constantly, so you survive and you have to tolerate, and you do those things. But when you transition to the note, you live in it and you exercise the right of the fact of the note.

And that's what I want people to take.

I say, all the time I go around, I get a chance to talk at you know, colleges and university, and I speak at high schools and I talk to kids, and that first thing, I'll say, what's two plus two? They say four? I said, you know that, don't you? I say yeah. I say, well, who do you believe in? They say this? I say, why, you just told me two plus two is four? So why are you believing this and not knowing it?

You must know that which you say is yours.

I can't say I believe in our marriage and the sanctity of our marriage and not know the person that I'm saying that I believe that, so I have to know. So it's a transition, and that's why I want people to walk away with this transition over to the no.

Exercise the right to believe, but say that that my worth is better.

Than that, and my no solidifies me and I move forward towards my objectives, towards my accomplishments. Because of my no, my belief puts me in a want sort of scenario. It makes me want things because of what I believe.

So take that.

So it's it's really the power of knowing, I guess.

And that's why the innocence come home because they knew they're innocent. They knew that they would come home. They didn't want to come home. So I want to go home. I want to go home. No, they say I'm going home. I'm innocent.

That's a powerful message. And think that we can all learn from that, and I'm going to have to really process that. It's interesting because I've never heard it phrased in that way. And you know, I've listened and I've learned from so many incredible people, so many spiritual people who've been through ordeals like what you've been through, people from all walks of life. But I've never heard anybody put it that way. And I think that, Like I said, I'm really glad that you shared that. So I'm glad

Thank you. Can we get a shout out to exonerated nation?

Exonerated nation?

Yeah?

Is there anything else you want to do? You want to plug you any social media or any other projects that you're working on, Like the.

Only project that I'm working on right now is Exonerating Nation.

The other project is a personal.

Project, personal project, but my public project is Exonerated Nation, and that's what I'm doing right now. So I just want to give a shout out to Exonerating Nation and all those potential or desired supporters.

And how did people if they want to learn more about Exonerated Nation A.

Couple of different ways. So I do have a website. It's called it Exonerated Nation. You can look it up online as a website. Also have a Facebook page that you can also go.

On Exonerate Nation dot com.

Yeah, dot com, you can go on there. I employ people to follow and those things. But the only reason why I asked you to follow is because.

I need you to work. You're following with no actions doesn't help.

I need follow me so that we can dig this ground and submit in justice as it's supposed to.

You're following its action.

It's not a metaphorical situation to say I'm following them. Oh no, So what do you mean you're following them?

All right?

What kind of following are you stalking?

Well?

No, I think kind of following.

What you need you need to describe and when you describe you're following.

You want to describe a.

Support I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this, and I'm doing that.

Well, you gotta first learn and get involved. And the good news is I think we're because of what's going on in this country right now in the world, when what I call the new Age of activism, I think there's more people than ever that want to get involved. They want to learn from people like you. They want to help prevent injustice and fight against this crazy situation that we find ourselves in, not just in the criminal justice system, but in general and make this world a

It does, and I thank you for the opportunity, and I really appreciate it.

Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause. And helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot orgorg to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR