[SPEAKER_01]: This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons and friends. [SPEAKER_01]: If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com slash writing excuses. [SPEAKER_01]: Season 21, Episode 20 [SPEAKER_00]: This is writing excuses sequencing from mega to micro tools not rules for writers by writers. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Mary Robinette. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Don Lawn. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Aaron and I'm Howard.
[SPEAKER_03]: And today, we are talking about sequencing. [SPEAKER_03]: And why we've put things in the order that we do? [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought I would actually start by it's funny. [SPEAKER_03]: The first thing I thought of when I was thinking about how to lead off this episode was our actual tagline that we've changed because we could say four writers, by writers, tools, not rules, or by writers, four writers, rules, [SPEAKER_03]: that are bad and tools that are good.
[SPEAKER_03]: But instead, we say tools not rules for writers, by writers, because I think we just think it sounds better. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And so one of the things I'm wondering about sequencing is, how much of it do you think is like, things we absolutely like can figure out by like dialing them up and having rules? [SPEAKER_03]: And how much of it do you think is like some sort of intrinsic thing that we know, like having rhythm, [SPEAKER_00]: thing that I think about a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do think the rhythm is really important, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're going to dive into that and even more detail in the next episode. [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think, you know, part of why that tagline works so well is the rhythmic beat of it. [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's also a narrowing funnel of the concept, you know, as you start from the broad statement of why do we do this show? [SPEAKER_00]: What's our core principle?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we worked a lot on this tagline and we did a whole exercise last year of all of us trying to come up with what is the show's mission statement at this point right like writing suits been around for a while. [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why we're doing a peek behind the curtain, but we are right now. [SPEAKER_00]: And trying to drill down into, what is our goal with the show?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then tools not rules just really emerge as a core principle for us, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Of this thing of where I'm trying to be prescriptive about writing, we want to give you a deep understanding of as many different aspects of writing as we can so that when you're confronted with the situation, you can, you have some things to reach for, right? [SPEAKER_00]: and then narrow down even further into why you and then why us, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So there is like this mega to micro to borrow the shows title in the tagline itself, which I think is a really good microcosm of the macro thing we're talking about. [SPEAKER_02]: To speak more specifically to the question, you know, how much of it is deliberate, how much of it is instinctive. [SPEAKER_02]: the more you know about the things you do, the more deliberate it becomes. [SPEAKER_02]: A great example of this is the order of adjectives in the English language.
[SPEAKER_02]: Most English speakers don't even think about it. [SPEAKER_02]: But if you order adjectives weirdly in a sentence, English speakers will be like, wait, what? [SPEAKER_02]: You did that wrong. [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what the rule is, but there appears to be a rule. [SPEAKER_02]: But once you think about it, once you really look at it, you realize, oh, there are, and I can't recite the rule.
[SPEAKER_02]: All I can remember is my favorite social media post about it, which was from the fake AP style book. [SPEAKER_02]: which said, you know, the order of adjectives is increasing order of awesomeness, the blue, Italian rocket propelled monkey piloted motorcycle is the order is the correct order of adjectives.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I loved that because it made me laugh, but I also loved it because it made me think about a thing that I hadn't thought about before in a way that forced me to create a rule for it. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so I could be more deliberate about a way I was writing. [SPEAKER_01]: This is, I think this is one of the really interesting things that a lot of times there are rules that we haven't internalized and we don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a good example.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can go look this up. [SPEAKER_01]: I also don't remember, but I remember being blown away because it was like, oh, oh, yeah, there actually is a thing with this. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not just that, like you've been honing your taste your entire life as a reader. [SPEAKER_01]: So there are things that you know intuitively about sequencing that you wouldn't be able to articulate.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, the things are when it's not working, that's when I kind of step back and I start thinking about, okay, well, why isn't this working? [SPEAKER_01]: What are the rules? [SPEAKER_01]: The tools that I have. [SPEAKER_01]: So there is the the the large tenero, you know, but sometimes you do want to invert that and and when you do you want to do it with deliberation while understanding like what it does.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you start very broad and you funnel down, you're bringing the audience's attention into a single point. [SPEAKER_01]: And then that point takes on a lot of emphasis, but sometimes you start with an important point and then you broaden outward in order to take them out into the larger world. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a lot about where you're trying to direct the reader's attention. [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's broad to narrow and sometimes it's either way around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's the thing we talk about, the resency primacy effect. [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's cause and effect. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's also an emotional quotient too, too, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And there's this really important principle of architecture, popularized by Frank Lloyd Wright, that's about compression and expansion, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and if you walk into a Frank Lloyd Wright house, you generally walk into what to modern, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: audiences feels like a very compacted space. [SPEAKER_00]: The hallways tend to be quite short. [SPEAKER_00]: They're not that wide. [SPEAKER_00]: There's not a lot of space to put stuff in them, and then what you do is you walk through that, and then you walk into a large open space, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We think of open concept when it comes to sprinkler, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But really, there's a lot of compression and then that expansion, so that then the living space feels like this huge airy space, even wind by square footage, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, part of the sin of the MacManchon is it's just all open space. [SPEAKER_00]: You walk into a huge foyer, you walk into a huge kitchen, you walk into it. [SPEAKER_00]: And so everything feels the same, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You get this, I'm back to my risotto issue here.
[SPEAKER_00]: But everything, there's no differentiation from room to room. [SPEAKER_00]: And so without that compression expansion, you don't have the emotional either relief of, ah, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm now in a great space. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm now in this next emotional sort of scene as you go from narrow to broad, or you don't have the sense of I'm leaving a space and we're focusing down back onto a single thing and then I'm getting set for the next expansion.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's sort of like funneling in and out of the compression expansion is something I think about in fiction as being very important for giving the differentiation between scenes [SPEAKER_00]: therefore pacing as you're pulling people through. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: It was like they're other both directional. [SPEAKER_03]: Like they both have seem like they have some sort of like intentionality.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're going from one to the other. [SPEAKER_03]: I often think about like the broad to small. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's why the adjectives getting increasingly cool works because each one we love details.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think as humans and so each detail usually each [SPEAKER_03]: the coolest thing about this is that there's only so many monkey propelled was it rocket launcher rocket propelled monster pilot motor cycle yes you know it means so it's like there might be many rocket propelled but you know only so many are going to be more monkey [SPEAKER_03]: operated, so each one gets more and more specific.
[SPEAKER_03]: I really like the broadening because I feel like what it does is what a camera does. [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times when it pulls back on a scene, which is you assume a certain amount of context when you give a specific detail. [SPEAKER_03]: And when you broaden out and it turns out that that context is different than you anticipated, it gives you a little bit of shock.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, oh wow, I never would have thought that this is where this happened, [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that we talked about, gee, a decade ago in writing excuses is sort of a pyramid theory of giving information in a scene in terms of description where you begin with lots of description as you're setting things up. [SPEAKER_02]: with less and less as you get to the top of the pyramid.
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason being, I mean, twofold, one, it sort of accelerates your pace through the scene or through the chapter. [SPEAKER_02]: and second, it draws focus away from the details and toward whatever the specific events are. [SPEAKER_02]: And again, this isn't a rule, it's just a way to think about when to use description and when not to use description. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's also a more basic mechanical [SPEAKER_01]: and less about the people at the beginning of a book.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's one of the reasons that the ends of books are shorter than the beginnings is that they often just take less description, because we've already done that load bearing work for the reader, which is again, going back to the sequence question. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, when do you do these things? [SPEAKER_01]: And why and how do you make those decisions?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about the broadening like why went you broaden why might you narrow in But Mira, I mean, you askly mentioned to others cause an effect and I can't remember the last one Reciency primacy. [SPEAKER_03]: Reciency primacy like why is there a reason that you would use? [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, cause an effect feels like this is something we generally understand. [SPEAKER_03]: Like first you say why something is happening and then what occurs, you know.
[SPEAKER_03]: after it has happened. [SPEAKER_03]: But like why would you focus on that as opposed to broad and narrow? [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of times what we're dealing with is an order of information thing where the reader isn't getting information at the time they need it and even if it's just in a single sentence it can cause a little bit of confusion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just did an exercise with the people in the writing excuses [SPEAKER_01]: And I showed them a piece of fiction that I had written in high school, and it's not good. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not terrible, but it's not good. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the sentences in it is something like agony seared her hand as the wood slapped into it. [SPEAKER_01]: And like just flipping that, like you know that she's experiencing pain, but you don't know why yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just flipping it as the wood slept into it, her, you know, agony seared her hand. [SPEAKER_01]: You understand there's a, there's a stronger connection. [SPEAKER_01]: there are times when you want to invert that because you want the surprise. [SPEAKER_01]: Like if someone opens a door in gasp, you don't get no why they've gasped. [SPEAKER_01]: And so delaying that moment gives the reader the same surprise that the character has.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that you're like, I'm gasping too. [SPEAKER_01]: Why am I startled? [SPEAKER_01]: And so you get to make those decisions about when you want the reader to have the same information at the same time the character does, when you want to then to experience the cause and then the effect. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you want them to be surprised and experience the effect and then the cause. [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, one of the effects of this [SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_03]: What's the cause? [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just a thing. [SPEAKER_02]: The cruise ship sailing us to Alaska this summer is completely sold out, except for the cabins we've reserved for writing excuses attendees. [SPEAKER_02]: These cabins are only available until June 4th. [SPEAKER_02]: On June 4th, any cabins not reserved by writing excuses attendees will revert to the cruise line and will be sold to the general public.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to join the writing excuses hosts and a hundred new friends on our final annual cruise, as we read, write, critique and learn while reveling in the stunning scenery, visit writingexuces.com slash retreats, don't delay. [SPEAKER_02]: We're holding the very last unreserved cabins on the entire ship, and they will not stay unreserved for very long. [SPEAKER_02]: Again, that's writingexcuses.com slash retreats.
[SPEAKER_01]: For many writers, World Building is also an opportunity for world breaking, a shattering of existing norms and assumptions of what is and isn't possible. [SPEAKER_01]: If you've read the work of in-K Jamison, author of the Broken Earth trilogy, and 40-second grandmaster for the science fiction and fantasy writers association, you'll know what I mean.
[SPEAKER_01]: This June, in Chicago, you can meet in-K Jamison yourself, and attend a master class on World Building and World Breaking at Siff was 61st Annual Nebula Awards Conference. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be there, too, along with other powerhouses and science fiction fantasy and related genres. [SPEAKER_01]: This year for the first time ever. [SPEAKER_01]: SIF was Nebula Awards include top prizes for poetry and comics. [SPEAKER_01]: We are excited to welcome these mediums into the fold.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Nebula Awards conference is an annual opportunity together as professional and professionalizing writers. [SPEAKER_01]: Have you bought your tickets yet to join the conversation in person or online and to celebrate our latest stars at the Nebula Awards banquet? [SPEAKER_01]: If you're in Chicago already, you can also freely attend our mass-order-grafting session on Friday June 5th. [SPEAKER_01]: All details are available on SFWA.org.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell your friends, nod your fellow creators, and reach out to fans. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's break down some old worlds and build new ones together in Chicago. [SPEAKER_02]: They call it the best four days in gaming, and I am disinclined to argue. [SPEAKER_02]: Gencon indie is my favorite convention. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a symposium for writers, and it might well be the best four days in writing. [SPEAKER_02]: Will you be there?
[SPEAKER_02]: I will, as will Mary Robinette, Aaron Dan and Sandra. [SPEAKER_02]: As you're putting together your gencom schedule, be sure to look us up by name so you can sign up for our events. [SPEAKER_02]: There will be a writing excuses podcast Q&A session Thursday night networking party hosted by writing excuses and the session with Howard Taylor that's me and Marie's brought us called a conversation with no shaperones. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe they're letting us do that one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: On May 17th, event registration goes live and your wish list will have you pre-registered for things. [SPEAKER_02]: Get your tickets today and reserve your spot. [SPEAKER_02]: We would be delighted to see you at JenCon.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, now that we are back from our break because time is a straight line, most of the time I'm curious about talking about this I'm like a little bit more of a micro level because I think a lot of times where I like to play around with it is in actually sequencing words within sentences. [SPEAKER_03]: Not about thinking about like the order of adjectives and playing with surprise.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the most fun things about talking about sequencing is that once you understand that there's a way that a lot of times people expect sequencing, cause and then affect a lot of times broad and then narrow, if you play with it, you get the surprise, you get something really interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: Something that I like to do a lot of times with sentences is think about a [SPEAKER_03]: that modifies the thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So instead of saying her voice, which you know had been rough roughened from too many years of whiskey, I will say her whiskey voice, you know, or, you know, her whiskey rough voice, which is a way to give the same information, but because it moves it over for some reason, [SPEAKER_03]: it feels like it's more late in with meaning. [SPEAKER_03]: And also as a short story writer, I've saved three to four words that I can then bank for later in this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're almost using surprise in a certain way. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you mean by that reordering, you're like shifting expectation, but still giving us the information, you know, a really useful tool for this, study garden path sentences. [SPEAKER_02]: garden path sentences are sentences where you begin reading the sentence and it is leading you to a place where the rest of the sentence is not going a classic example the old [SPEAKER_02]: are crewing the boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Understanding the principle of a garden path sentence, one helps you to not write them accidentally and helps you to create garden path-ish things where you send the reader down a garden path you want them on in order to buttonhook them into something else. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a good example of this that I was already thinking about, so thank you for queuing this up for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Douglas Adams uses this a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The ships hung in the air exactly the way bricks don't. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you are not expecting, you're not expecting that turn. [SPEAKER_01]: But sequencing wise, [SPEAKER_01]: He's putting the surprise at the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: If it had been bricks don't hang in the air the way these ships did like there's that is that is a clunker of a sentence because you know you're not there's so many reasons that that doesn't make that doesn't work but it does show you how important order is and sequence because [SPEAKER_01]: It's all the same content, it's just entirely wrong because the important, the fun thing, the surprise comes at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think one thing that is also really important at line level, or basically at any level, is mirroring in repetition, right? [SPEAKER_00]: I know that when I write, especially non-fiction, I tend to over-reliant repetition, but I do think it's really useful to set up a pattern and break it, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that you can do on a structural level in its sentence, be giving us this list of things through repetition of, [SPEAKER_00]: I walked a long way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I can't think for good example. [SPEAKER_00]: I've walked off my head. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think having a thing where you want one beat, second beat, and then the third beat, you break the pattern can set up that surprise in terms of using simple tracks like Rule of Three, but doing it in a very deliberate structural way.
[SPEAKER_03]: something that's really cool about patterning, too, is like you're creating your own sequencing rules. [SPEAKER_03]: You're telling people, okay, we are in a new, like, in this particular set of sentences, you're going to get this word over and over again, and each time it's going to be slightly different.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because a lot of times when we use repetition, we might use the same word, but like something different is on the other end of the verb, or we might use like the same general sentence construction, but the length changes. [SPEAKER_03]: And so each time you're getting something slightly different and then just as you teach us a sequence, you rip it out from under us, which is great. [SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of like a pact with the reader.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I feel like a lot of sequencing is like you making promises to the reader about the way that they will be experiencing the story and then being like ha ha no or yes and the using that to actually not control reader emotion, but to take readers on a journey that makes things not feel flat. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I also think about with this is the idea of readability, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a thing in commercial fiction that we talk about in terms of window pane prose, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Pros that is invisible in a certain way because it's so readable and you you just read very quickly and can absorb very quickly. [SPEAKER_00]: And so something like a garden path sentence is sort of very anti-readability. [SPEAKER_00]: You have to slow down and think about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: and you're sort of putting the brakes on your reader as they're moving through it and they have to like stop and purse what you're saying versus sometimes doing something that is you know maximizing that speed of reading can be a really effective technique and there's just as much technique that goes into doing that as there is writing the beautifully crafted sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to flag for readers that winter pain or transparent prose is a fashion-based thing because Jane Austen was writing winter pain prose in her day. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, 100%. [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So, when you're thinking about these things, like, don't think, do I want to write transparent prose or not think about where am I putting my embellishments and why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the transparent prose that winter pain prose, if you're writing stuff that feels natural to you, you're probably writing something that is currently fashionable in some ways. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: And one really useful thing for getting that sort of like quicker comprehension and building sort of towards that speed of reading for your audience is honestly using like [SPEAKER_00]: a high school composition essay techniques, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of, there's a thing I think about a lot of tell someone that thing you're gonna tell them, then tell it to them and then tell them what you just told them, right? [SPEAKER_00]: This is really useful for an action scene, for example, where you kind of frame it up in a way of here's the thing that's about to happen and then you go through what happened and then you tell them what happened at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I lot of him to, I find when reading a scene [SPEAKER_00]: if they don't do that, I will not be quite sure what I'm supposed to take away from the scene or what to expect going into the scene. [SPEAKER_00]: And so having that sort of like intro and conclusion, sort of sentence or like hint can be incredibly helpful at a scene level and at a sentence level in terms of how am I supposed to ingest that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this goes back to the question of repetition and and cause and effect and sequencing.
[SPEAKER_01]: In, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,
[SPEAKER_01]: So you hear repetition when in the wild, when something is walking towards your potential predator. [SPEAKER_01]: You hear it when it's water dripping and that's an important piece of information. [SPEAKER_01]: So once you've identified that information, then if it's not important to you, then you discard it. [SPEAKER_01]: You're like, okay, I can tune the repetition out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're using repetition in fiction, you want to make sure that you're using it to catch the reader's attention and that you're not [SPEAKER_01]: And what Darwin is talking about with this, you tell them, you tell them again, and then you tell them what you told them. [SPEAKER_01]: That is a form of repetition to draw the reader's attention to it. [SPEAKER_01]: But if it's not an important thing, like, again, on this workshop, I was showing them some of my earlier prose.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had this thing where I described the same action three different times, [SPEAKER_01]: I did this multiple times in a scene, but only one of the actions that I was describing was plot relevant. [SPEAKER_01]: So as someone who was editing it as an adult, I took out the other two repetitions where I was describing the same motion multiple times because what that was was me figuring out the right way to describe it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there is the repetition aspect.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also a fractal aspect of it too right sort of an individual moment level there is that tell them tell them again and then tell them what happened, but then there's also sort of the scene level and then literally the book level right. [SPEAKER_00]: The introductory scene of a book that opening scene really should mirror the structure and sort of genre flow, not sure, but can in a useful way mirror the structure and genre and, you know, beats of the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then your conclusion sort of tells us what are we taking away from this, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So in that sort of like fractal microcosm macrocosm thing, you can sometimes either show in micro what the book will be. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one great example I think about this is the opening of the Honing of Hillhouse, which has this sort of long rambling sentence at the beginning that really encapsulates the entire experience of reading this book, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sets you up so well, both plot wise and linguistically for what you're in for in this very specific way of like we're gonna be doing some weird psychological stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: Here is some big statements about the world. [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a description of a very normal house the house is really scary, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like that sort of the beats of that opening line and then that's the beats of the book, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So this sort of fractal microcosm, macrocosm kind of thing, [SPEAKER_00]: can really play into a version of this mirroring repetition in all these different aspects. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the reasons that this works and this goes back to the sequencing thing is that recently by a residency primacy effect, because we like symmetry. [SPEAKER_01]: Humans respond really, really well to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, residency primacy effect, we've been tossing this word a lot around in this episode, and we do talk about it in other episodes, but I'll redefine it here. [SPEAKER_01]: It is that you notice the first thing and the last thing and those, those stick the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, when you've got this, this outer frame of, on this, this fractal macrocosm, you're completing a circuit because the residency and the primacy are both the same thing and so that completes a circuit and it enhances them. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can do that on a scene level, you can do that on a sentence level or a paragraph level where you hit something a little bit harder at the beginning and the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a blonde in the chair versus the man walked into the room and the chair was a blonde, but then I can complete this by lingering on that. [SPEAKER_01]: The man walked into the room. [SPEAKER_01]: There was a blonde in the chair. [SPEAKER_01]: She had hair to the base of her spine and legs didn't stop. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm hitting the blonde and the hair, like I'm hitting the blonde twice in that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no. [SPEAKER_01]: I see your face, Aaron.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're talking about. [SPEAKER_01]: You're right. [SPEAKER_01]: I should have just stuck with the metaphor from the previous one of chasing balls. [SPEAKER_01]: But the point of that is that, like, I can do the same thing with, you know, the man walked into the room. [SPEAKER_01]: In the chair was a blonde the chair was a fine but hardwood. [SPEAKER_01]: probably from the early 1800s, and at that point, the woman in the chair becomes unimportant.
[SPEAKER_01]: The chair is the important thing because of this this balance. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's this, it's a question of sequence. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one thing to then is standing out to me as we talk about this is a lot of things we're talking about are concepts and cognitive psychology, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's the idea of the recent sea bias. [SPEAKER_00]: You're more biased to say your favorite thing was something that you saw recently, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the framing bias, which is the first person who states like the frame of the thing tends to define the field of play. [SPEAKER_00]: This is a tool in negotiation where you say, this is worth a million dollars. [SPEAKER_00]: And then someone now can't be like, this is worth $20, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think the microcosmicochasm thing that I'm talking about is a framing thing and a recency thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can use your understanding of the way people's brains work and how we process information as these narrative like I hesitate to call them hacks, but you're also kind of hacking somebody's brain. [SPEAKER_00]: These are tools and techniques to get information across in really efficient ways that are very impactful and meaningful. [SPEAKER_02]: One of my favorite tools [SPEAKER_02]: It shortcuts all of the thinking about why and how and goes straight to the mechanics.
[SPEAKER_02]: is turn the paragraph upside down. [SPEAKER_02]: Just reverse the information in the paragraph and see if it works better. [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many paragraphs that I've written where I look at it and I think, man, what is wrong with it? [SPEAKER_02]: How are you? [SPEAKER_02]: You have a tool for this, turn it upside down and I'll just reverse the order of information and realize, oh, now it's right. [SPEAKER_02]: Do I know why it's right?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but I know that tool worked. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's funny to one more tool before we wrap up here is like I also think that it's some this stuff sounds really complicated, but as we've been talking, one thing I've been thinking a lot about is gossip and also like how we convey information people that tell someone tell them again and then you know tell them that you told them is also like, oh my god, I hate John so much, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So today he came and he poured water in the copier and it was horrible and he, you know, burn my house down also. [SPEAKER_03]: And that is why I will never speak to him again. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like we tend to do this. [SPEAKER_03]: This is how we convey information. [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it is because a lot of what we understand about writing comes from oral like at some point you had to catch someone's attention.
[SPEAKER_03]: verbally and say like, hey, this is why you should pay attention. [SPEAKER_03]: What's going on? [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: Now I'm going to explain it and like, don't forget, this is the thing that I just told you because if you're listening to somebody say something, you can't hold there's only so much you can hold in your head about like what they just said.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so the thing that caught your attention first and the thing that they left with are the things that you're going. [SPEAKER_03]: to take with you. [SPEAKER_00]: You gotta tell me how we feel about the person for you telling me the story, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: If this story is about, oh, it's so sad that my sister-in-law had to go through with these terrible things. [SPEAKER_00]: Or if this story is, I hate my sister-in-law.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's all the things that she did. [SPEAKER_00]: Those are, can have the same facts. [SPEAKER_00]: It would be very different interpretations of the story, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So if you wanna learn a lot about the story, telling honestly, go listen to the podcast, normal gossip, which is one of my favorite things in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just the rhythm of how they tell stories [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, in fact, I was going to think like if I'm in love with John, I'm like John burn my house down. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a very different story. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a little bit of the cause and effect again. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you don't want to give someone an answer before you before the question exists. [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_03]: And with that, we are going.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is jumbo size. [SPEAKER_03]: We are going to wrap up with homework. [SPEAKER_03]: And this homework is worth one million dollars. [SPEAKER_02]: 20 worth 20 bucks. [SPEAKER_02]: Guys, it's only worth 20 bucks. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here with confused by this frame.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, all right, so take something, this homework's probably unsurprising, but take something either that you've written or something interesting that you've heard recently, something somebody has told you that you're like, wow, what a juicy story. [SPEAKER_03]: And go ahead and write it down in the order that you currently have it or the order that you received it. [SPEAKER_03]: And then I want you to rewrite it two ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: One is to take Howard's beautiful example that he stole from my brain, which is to do it upside down, do it backwards, figure out how that would work. [SPEAKER_03]: And then I want you to find some very unexpected way to sequence it that feels wrong to you. [SPEAKER_03]: What is the worst way you could possibly sequence this information? [SPEAKER_03]: Write it that way and I don't know, see what happens. [SPEAKER_02]: You are out of excuses, now go right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Writing excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons and friends. [SPEAKER_01]: For this episode, your hosts were Mary Robinette Koal, Dong-Wan Song, Erin Roberts and Howard Taylor. [SPEAKER_01]: This episode was engineered by Marshall Card Jr., mastered by Alex Jackson, and produced by Emma Reynolds. [SPEAKER_01]: For more information, visit writing excuses.com.