Murder, Mayhem, and Manuscripts: A Deep Dive with Crime Writer Sara Bailey

and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be aware of this. If you have Children around, let's relax on the convo couch and chat to this week's guest. Hello and welcome to another episode of Rights for Women. This week we have something very special. A guest host Ray Cairns, talking to a fantastically loved crime author. Sarah

Bailey Sarah is the author of six. I Think It is Crime novels, and this is a fantastic chat between Ray and Sarah, two wonderful crime authors chatting about Sarah's books, of course, particularly her latest release, Body of Lies, but also really getting into the writing process. And there's some great stuff here on how Sarah goes about research, how she fits writing into a very busy life with three Children and a full time job. All so a whole lot of other things about the writing process.

So I think you're going to really love this interview regardless of whether you are a crime author or not, or whether you're a crime reader or not. This is one for all readers and writers, I think, and it's a really interesting conversation. Hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed listening to it as I was editing it. Ray Cairns is the author of The Good Mother and Dying to Know two brilliant crime slash thriller novels

about ordinary women caught in very extraordinary situations. If you haven't read Ray Ray's books yet, I highly recommend them. They're absolutely gripping and page turning, and you can find the links to buy them in the show Notes for this episode. Not a whole lot for me to report

this week in terms of my own writing. I've finally finished the editing slash proofread on both Blackwater Lake and out of the Ashes to get them ready for print and E book release later in the year, and I've also done my novella proofread that's gone off to the publisher at HQ. Harp Collins for this year's

Christmas Anthology. Just today. Actually, the novella that I wrote for last year's anthology A Christmas to Remember has been released into the wild on its own, so you can grab that for just 299 as an eBook, along with any of the individual novellas from that anthology. So if you feel like just dipping into one or two of them, highly recommend you grab those at your favourite eBook retailer. Also, I wanted to give a shout out to all the people following along on my diary of a Procrastinator

patreon series. This is for the family level supporters who pay $5 a month. And what I've been doing the last couple of weeks is doing an analysis of Donna Cameron's opening chapter for the Rewilding. Because I think it's just a really great gripping opening chapter, and it's a masterclass on how to write an opening chapter. So I've been reading that along with the patreon peeps and digging into what makes that

such a great opening. Now that I've finished doing all my edits, I'm going to be get getting back to my own writing, and I will be sharing, uh, my process as I write the third in the Black Water Lake series, a place of her own. I'm already 25,000 words into that, and I had talked about that at the beginning of

the Diary of a Procrastinator series. But I am going back to that tomorrow and will be doing a few updates each week for the patreon people just talking about my writing process, talking about any difficulties that I'm coming across, what I'm doing to get over them, talking about characterization, getting words on the page, anything at all to do with the process of getting that first draught down. And I'll be doing that in a fairly short period of time because it does need to get to the

publisher in a few months. So follow along, aiming to do a nano this month and make a 50,000 words in a month. I'm also planning on doing a kind of write along sessions with the patreon people, where I'll just send a zoom link through, and anybody that wants to join me for a you know, half hour or one hour writing session as we motivate each other, that will be happening and so you can find out all about the Patreon programme on writes for Women.com/patreon.

So let's get on with this week's chat. Ray Cairn's Chatting to Crime author Sarah Bailey, and it's a really great one. Hope you enjoy. Hi and welcome

The Housemate and an audible Original Final Act. The debut and first of four Gemma novels, The Dark Lake won the Ned Kelly Award for Best First Crime Fiction and the David Award for best debut Body of Lies, the fourth book in the Gemma series, was released in March this year. Sarah, Welcome to the Convoke Co. Thank you so much, Rae for having me so as well as being an internationally bestselling crime author. You have three sons, one of whom is moving into toddlers.

You're also the managing director of the Melbourne and Sydney offices of an advertising agency. So my first question has to be, Do you have any tips on how to keep writing when time is scarce? It's a really good question that I'm currently asking myself if I do have a I do have a book deadline that was on the horizon, and now it feels like it's getting closer and I really need to do something about it. Look, I think with writing, and I'm sure that this

is something that you would agree with. You do have to really want to do it because it's hard to find time, and it is deep work like it's that kind of work that you can't dip in and out of at certain phases of the writing process. I used to be a little bit better at doing that, maybe as well, but now I'm finding that I really need enough time to be able to get back into my story and read what's already written and then really think about the next

steps and the next themes and what, what not. So I find that if I have half an hour, I can't do much with that. Like I can potentially do a tiny bit of editing. But to really make progress on a manuscript, I do need a couple of hours, at least set aside better than if a day, if possible. So time is the real challenge. When it comes to writing for me, I try to find blocks of time where I can just cordon myself off. And I do work

quite quickly, which I think is lucky. I'm quite a far, uh, thinker and a fast writer that both in your first draught and in your editing you find you quite quick. Yeah, I think so. Just talking to other writers, and it's obviously really hard to compare and tell because you don't actually sit with someone else while they're writing. But from what they tell me, I feel like I am. I don't really second guess my decision. I'm not someone

that agonises over every word. I'm fairly pragmatic, I think when it comes to writing so particularly in that first draught. I'm all about just getting the story out, getting it down, making sure it's making sense to me, having the loose beats of the story as clear as I can. The editing process is a bit different because you do have to be a little bit more thoughtful, and there is more of a kind of agonising over removing a scene or changing a character or big decisions.

So that is a bit lower by nature. Um, and I go into, I think, quite a different pace from an editing point of view than I do with a like draught point of view. So do you tend to try and put aside a day on the weekend or Yeah, is that true? I do back working full time. Now I am back working full time, and the honest answer to your question is I actually don't know exactly how it's going to work now because I've

never written with a baby before. My other Children were, I think, about four and seven or so when I first started writing, which is obviously quite a different ball game, because they were able to be entertaining themselves or di, different kind of patent, of sleeping and things like that. You know how it's gonna go. It'll be a bit of an experiment, and we'll find out. But I'm lucky. I've obviously got a supportive partner so I can negotiate specific blocks of time.

But there is limited time to negotiate because work's already taken up a very big chunk of it, and my work's quite unpredictable, too. So even though it's full time and it's full time hours, we work in an industry where pitches come in or things change. And so even planning out weeknight to get two or three hours done can be a bit of a challenge, because it just doesn't always work out that way. But I'm just someone that

I guess I don't stress about it. I feel like it's always worked out in the past, one way or another. I feel optimistic that it will continue to work out one way or another, and it's like Mike said here before that, that you've got to want to write. That's right. I was saying to someone the other day, I when I'm not writing, I miss it. And so I guess thats good to know. It's a sort of It's actually quite a nice thing to miss something, because I feel like that means that it is something that

you wanna do. But that doesn't mean obviously that when you sit down, it's easy. I wish that it was getting easier and easier, but I actually don't feel that it's gotten any easier for me to do that over the six books. It hasn't got easier. No, not really. I think it's just because each book is its own unique puzzle and has its own sort of unique challenges. And I think that the main thing I've learned is to have that optimism, that it will get done because it has gotten done before, so I

don't tend to stress about it. But it certainly I don't really necessarily feel like I've got all these skills that I've accumulated that have that make it easier. It's like a confidence in there somewhere that I'll figure it out. But each book is yeah, its own unique beast. So it's a strange craft. I think in that sense, because I guess you learn skills, but I don't know there's something about it that makes every book feel like a special challenge.

But isn't that The other thing is that you're learning from each book, so as a craft, you keep learning. It's not like you go, Oh, I've done that. So yeah, and obviously that's part of why it's so rewarding because there is the struggle. Like, I think that if it was easy, it would just not be nearly as attractive to just be a writer, because I think that even though we all find it, I think most people find it quite challenging and certainly a big project to take on.

If it was easy, I just don't think you'd have that satisfaction at the end that that is so special for me, that achievement of standing back and looking at a book and thinking about all the hours and decisions that went into it and the changes and the way that I had to navigate it. That's so much a

part of the satisfaction that comes from writing. And I think it's also because in our world there's so few opportunities to complete a project in a way that feels like a full circle, something that you can tick off most of the things I work on in my other job, I sort of there's projects that get completed, but they just roll on to some extent as well. Whereas I think with a book it's done and you get to hold it and look at it and reflect on it. And maybe it's perfect, but it's

a completed piece. It's really it is really special. And II. I think that it is a huge driving motivation during the process, like all of those times where you be bothered writing today or gosh, this is hard or I don't know how to fix this editorial feedback that that feeling that you're chasing to complete it is certainly the thing that keeps me going, I think, Yeah, absolutely. On that huge congratulations on Body of Lies

I absolutely loved. It was the the twists and the red herrings and the way you wrangle numerous plot lines and still keep the build of tension going. And it's also, I think, a lesson in how to make a book in a series work as a stand alone novel like it really sits as a stand alone novel as well, which I I learned from that. So can you tell us a bit about the story? Yes, I can. And thank you, Rae. So much for those kind words. It's really nice to hear all of

that feedback. Yeah. So the book is the fourth book in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series. And I have to say at the start, the idea came the premise. The idea of this book came before it was part of the series. Like I was considering it as a stand alone idea. This was just in my mind. I never put pen to paper, but I was thinking about this premise of a body being stolen from a hospital morgue. And I was loosely in my mind, had another detective character tied to it completely

new character. And I was just thinking how that might all come together. And then there was a few things that sort of fell into place. So I decided it needed to be in a regional country town just to make the premise more believable. So the idea that a body could get stolen from a hospital felt like something that would be more likely to happen in these regional sort of towns. Just based on the way the hospital and the morgue relationship works. And so once I started framing it into that setting,

Gemma popped up. And I'd already had this idea a long time ago of her being at a at the hospital with an unwell family member. And so I thought, Oh, she's already there. And so, yeah, it was a funny kind of process because I hadn't necessarily planned to write another Gemma book. I hadn't definitively written it off, but I certainly hadn't planned to write a four. The third. The third one, sort of ends in a way that

I would have been happy with, I think. But once she started to mule her way into the story, it was so clear to me that there needed to be this fourth book and her story needed to continue. Yeah, it was really nice, actually, because then I had the character to put into the premise of the story. But I, I really started writing this book quite a

long time ago. Like I started the sort of few first few chapters of this book when we were in lockdown in Melbourne in 2020 then parked it for a few months and was finishing the housemaid and got really busy doing that, and then ended up back in the opposite work and back being busy again. So I had about 25,000 words that sat on this manuscript for, I think, over 18 months, and I really didn't touch it for that whole time and then went back and did really like the premise

really felt like it was worthy of pursuing. So worked through how it was all going to play out. But it changed quite a bit. And the subplot that you mentioned really didn't come into play until I went back and revisited it. Like that 1st, 25,000 words was quite straightforward. Initially, it was very much just around the key premise, and that was the focus, and that was it.

And then it wasn't until later that I laid it in with some of these other characters and subplot situations, which Gemma was really helpful because I know so much about her and her world. I was then able to create the other kind of tensions and stories beyond that kind of core proposition of the book, so it was a Really Yeah, it's been a It was a really fun one to write. I'm gonna say that now, but we'll

stick to that. I do remember at the time there were quite a few challenges, and I did edit this book with a very young baby. So I got the I did the first past the draught when he was about a month old, which was interesting. But as you would have known from reading the book, Gemma's also has a newborn in the book. And so it wasn't ever intended to be life imitating art because I started this book quite a long time ago. Before there was any idea in my mind that I

would have another child. But it did end up that she's navigating crimes then with a baby strapped to her front, and I was kind of like typing around a baby strapped to my front, so it was quite funny. You know, those those bits the little snippets about work beautifully about. So yeah, it's like method writing. You should go a long way, don't you to get I Really? Yeah. For

my art. I'll do anything better. Yeah. So it was a sort of an interesting process overall, and certainly the longest I've ever taken to to work on a book. Not that I think it actually, if you added up all the time, it took me overall, it probably didn't end up being any longer than the others. But it was just spread over quite a few years.

Yeah, which I think probably ended up helping with the book because it's I think did need quite a lot of colour and that because it's the last book in the series, I really wanted to make sure it came full circle and so setting it back in Gemma's hometown, she's back to where it all started. And I think the growth that she has in this book is really important and makes me feel good about ending the series. I think like it does feel like it has got the right ending.

So was it a hard decision to decide to end the series? I don't know, like I do get asked quite a bit if I miss her or was I sad and I like not really. It didn't feel particularly emotional. I think like she's been such that I feel lucky that I thought of her. I, I suppose, is more where I get to no idea where she came from.

And she just appeared all those years ago, and I'm very fortunate, and I do feel lucky that she appeared and that she had so much in her that it could lead to four books, which I had no idea at the start was going to happen. So it's more just like an appreciation that I managed to land on a character that had that ability. But I don't really feel bad in a way. I think it's just that just the right time to end that theory, then I think also it's coincided with the books being

turned into a TV show. So in a way, I feel like she's getting this extra life all over again. So maybe that's also helping it not feel like it's over. Yeah, yeah, OK, so returning to body of lies specifically just give us a little. So Gemma's back in her hometown. She is at the hospital with her dad. Essentially, what happens just to give people a little brief? Yeah, so, yes, Gemma's visiting her dad at the hospital who is unwell and they are talking. She's about to go home. She's

visiting him after hours. She's on parental leave, so she's not on the job. She's not being a detective in that moment, and suddenly the hospital is plummeted into darkness. There's a blackout, and no one knows what's going on. The generators kick in, and as Gemma's going down to the main area to work out what is happening, it becomes apparent that someone has stolen a body from the morgue during the blackout.

And the body is that of an unidentified woman who was brought in just hanging on to life, following a really dramatic car accident earlier in the evening. Um, and then she dies on arrival. So that was her body in the morgue, and someone had taken it. So it becomes very much a situation of Who was she? Why would someone want to steal her body? Was she good or bad with the car crash, an intentional one or an accident?

What happened? And Gemma, while not technically being on the job, just cannot help herself from getting involved in the mystery, because it's just right up her alley. In terms of something that she wants to solve, and that the added complexity of the fact that the detective that essentially has replaced her while she's been on leave is someone that

she doesn't particularly like. But there is a professional competitiveness to their relationship that really comes to the fore as she's trying to wrangle herself back into the investigation. Yeah, so she's got the investigation, and then she's got her work life with this kind of conflict with every and then she's also got a whole new change at home with a newborn baby because she has an older son. But then she's got the baby. So she's got a lot going on in her life.

She was already having a little bit of a crisis of career confidence or almost even. What does she actually want? And I guess that the pull of the case makes it very clear that there is something about that role and that career that that absolutely is intrinsic in her. Yeah, but she does have some decisions to make you know about the future. And does she want to really double down on her ambition and progress in in that career and climb the ladder, or is it time to

think about doing something different? So she's got all of that uncertainty swirling around in her mind. The baby as well as which is the Let's be honest, a physical inconvenience was that thunder work. So having to navigate like the logistics of a baby and the logistics of a case that's really not compatible. So she's navigating that as well, about how she navigated that with her son. So she's, Yeah, she's trying to

do it better this time around. Gemma, you impulsive and selfish, and she's very morally. She wants to always do the right thing, but that doesn't her behaviour. To get to doing the right thing doesn't always play well with others. So she's always fighting against herself to some extent, and I think that certainly comes through, too. It does absolutely. Chris Hammer calls her his favourite Australian detective. Him and I, she's an absolute cracker, like she's flawed

and relatable and infuriating all at the same time. Where's Chris Ham for saying that considering he had his own his own, which I said to him, I'm like, What are you talking about? But no, it is a very nice thing of him to say, But she's also like you said. Sometimes she makes this decision. She's quite polarising and with within the world of the novel, but also with readers. At times, they definitely I get lots of feedback. I, I have found particularly older women,

find her infuriating. Like when they talk to me about her, they can often be like she's just so frustrating. I just want to give her a good shake, and I'm like, OK, but I, I totally understand that. And I think the good thing or the interesting thing for me in having managed her character before ball was the chance to have her self reflect more. In her first book, she she's aware of some of her actions not being ideal, but in

a way that is quite defensive. Still, she's justified it all the time to herself, whereas by the fourth book we've actually got a person who is able to step back sometimes and think about why am I doing this? Why am I thinking this way? Why do I have the inclination to respond like that? Like she is able to reflect on her behaviour and regulate it. To some extent, she did mature so much over the four books, and yet you clearly didn't plan to have the fourth book.

No second or the third character arc across the four books has just happened with each book. You didn't have that a thought process about that at the When I wrote the first book, there was no I didn't even know if I'd finished that book. So there was definitely no conscious thought around continuing that character across the series, I think I, I do remember one. It became clear that the publisher wanted a second book.

I did remember feeling very strongly, like an instinct that she had to move away from the so she had to leave Smith then, and she had to go off and have her, like Two Towers book that I remember thinking she had to leave and be challenged in a different way. So I knew that second book had to be a bit of a rock bottom book, which I think, then did have me thinking about the third in a bit of a different energy that had to then be coming back up again. I think in

her second book. She does a lot of soul searching, and it's not. She's in a not a good spot, functionally at work. She's fine, but she definitely grapples with a lot of demons and whatnot in that way of leaving home often does make yourself reflect where you have to be a new person in a new info. But yeah, it's always been it's developed as it's gone. And then the fourth book, I suppose I had more time to think about it because I didn't necessarily know it was gonna be a Gemma

book for a while. By the time I decided it would be, I felt quite clear that full circle final piece of the puzzle really had to happen, like I was genuinely running out of time to to do it. If I didn't do it in this book, it wasn't gonna happen. And, yeah, it was nice to have the opportunity to have her learn some lessons in a way that I think you feel when you finish this book. Hopefully that she is gonna be OK because she has had to do that growth, and she hasn't just done it. Tokenistic.

She's actually really acknowledged it and understood it in a way that you feel is quite key to how she's gonna go ahead into her life into the future. So, yeah, I mean, I some of it sounds really strategic when I say it like this. It doesn't feel that way when I'm writing it. It's much more instinctive than that. But sometimes the subs, isn't it? Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think that's right. Your brain is piecing

some of those things together as you're writing. And it's not until you come back to do the editing that you feel like. Oh, yes, those connections are quite clear. And those themes are coming into play here, and obviously, then you can clone bits and pieces to make it, really. But yeah, I think you just Yeah, you man, I've managed her arc in a way that I has made sense to me. But she's still Gemma, and

that's the whole point. You have to have someone that is, even when someone grows, they are still themselves, and she is certainly still impulsive, and she will be until the end of her life. What was the inspiration for Gemma like way back when you were right in the dark LA Did she arrive fully formed or did she develop? Or did you think very clearly about her and plan her or do you know what she just, like, literally appeared in my mind as a really fully formed character, Her name

in my mind, even what she looked like? I have no idea where she came from. I really couldn't tell you. It was I was playing around with this idea of a murdered high school teacher in a small country town, just knowing that would be such a challenging thing for a community to navigate. And then, second to that, I think Gemma just needed to then be someone that had a relationship with this victim. And

she disappeared in my mind. I could just see her tramping around the lake in the dark lake, looking at this high school peer of hers that was murdered 10 years later. And I never had to down and plan out, like her back story or her character or what? Whatever. It was just all genuinely there. She elbowed a way in like she does in her job. Like genu. Yeah, absolutely. And even things like I knew she had lost her

mother as a teenager. I. I knew she had this lovely but removed relationship with her dad like it was all quite clear in my mind right from the start. But she has never been particularly challenging for me to write. It's more been the world around her. You've got quite a a cast of characters in Body of Lies. How do you keep track of them all? How do you like? Because there's a lot. Yeah, it's a nightmare. It's a total, but it's it is tricky,

like I. I think what I've realised I do. Looking back on all of the books that I've written, I'm pretty good at holding everything in my mind for the first sort of 40 50,000 words of all my books people, an idea that don't know about How long are your books like this one? About 100,000 words Almost all of them have been. None of them have been less than 100,000 words, so they're all 100 to 110. So I tend to get to the halfway ish mark and yeah, it can be quite smugly all in my mind,

I don't plan anything. So it's all just in my mind, and I'm quite confident up until that point. And then I tend to find that I open the file and it loads, and I start to realise that I've lost track. What's happening? What has to happen next, who everyone is, all the subplots and I'm like, Ah, and that's when I almost have a little pause moment and I almost have to go back and write out almost what's been in my own book so far, just so that I can get it straight so I'll tend

to at that point, print it out. Go write in Chapter one. This happens, and I do a bit more of a visual sort of plan, like just on a post it thing on the wall. Which, to be honest, I actually think, is me just buying myself some time to recalibrate and reorient myself around my own book. Because as I do that, I tend to then realise that I'm figuring out what happens next and what hasn't been closed up off or tied up from a threads point of view and where subplots are and aren't working.

It is mainly so unconscious. But I start to realise, OK, that's missing. That's not very clear during if it halfway through. And then I go back in again and keep drafting, but with a little bit more of re like a reboot. OK, I'm in a bit of a better place now. I think I can get to the end of this book. Hopefully because I've had this little review to myself around. What the hell is Yeah OK, so what is the physical draught look like for you?

Like that first draught? You you type, you don't handwrite. Is it in word? Is it in Scribner? Is it in some other? Oh, I wish it was in Scribner because it sounds really organised, but it's just in word when you Yeah, but I mean, it's a bit tricky, actually. To even say, Is it a first draught or is it like a the the 15th draught? Because I will, by that point, like by the time I sort of print out what I call the first draught,

I have edited it a lot. I have gone back and probably already rearranged things, and I've given it a good sweep over as well. And so it's a weird. It is a first full draught, but it will still have bits where I'll be not yourself, saying this needs to change or this chapter's not quite right or this might not be in the right spot, so it'll have

sort of little notes all over it. It'll have lots of things highlighted in yellow when something in my books highlighted in yellow, it means I know it's not good, but I can't be bothered fixing it right now. So unfortunate that I will go to office work and I'll be like, Oh, look at all that yellow that needs to be solved. But But I think for me the first draught is it's like tagging the finish line. It's like I've got to the end. It has a start. It has a finish. It has a middle.

Things need to be fixed and changed, I know, but at least the full story has got its shape. That's actually your way of getting through. A first draught is going OK. I'll holler, light it in yellow and then I can just keep going rather than getting down inside Yes. I was gonna ask you a hint of getting words on the page for that first draught. And you Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm very clear on. I would never finish a book if I didn't just keep going. I

need the momentum of the writing process. It's momentum feeds momentum for me, I think. And I find if I stop and get dark and kind of start to really procrastinate or weigh up different scenarios or whatever, I lose my own kind of momentum. So I think that's why even at that halfway mark, where, Let's be honest, I do get stuck. I don't know if I'd call it writer's block or just like bad planning, but I think that's why I then do switch. Just let's go back through the book and work out what's

happening so I can keep moving. And that, for me, is just that perpetual motion kind of approach. If I'm not writing words down and doing something, I really start to feel like like I can't make the book work, so I think for me, it's that keep moving, keep going. I mean, if one scene's not working, jump to another one you jump ahead to a different scene. Just so you're writing correct? Yeah, I would much rather especially because I think I have such limited time. I

guess that's also probably part of it. But I'm very much OK. That scene's not working. So I might say absolutely something that needs to happen here is this character needs to turn up and reveal this information, and I'll put I'll literally just put that in the jar and then I'll just jump. I'll just jump to another scene where I do feel confident that I know what's happening. I'd much rather spend like the hour that I've got writing a scene, then staring at the screen and not

getting anywhere. So I do end up having to tap the ST style ditch all these disparate them together sometimes and then change the joining words and fix it. But I always feel like productivity is progress. You you can't have, uh, for me Anyway, I can't spend hours and hours and not generate words because I just think I'd never get anything done in the end. Yeah, so you write. You don't have a plan. At the beginning, you literally sit down and start writing.

Your structures are very strong. So do you in your head? Have a have clear points you need to hit in your structure? Or is it something you've learned through reading or a method you've learned? Or some? Because I think people often get a bit overwhelmed by structure. Yeah, it's I was thinking when you said that I don't have a plan that's true, like I don't have anything written down, but I will. I think I do more work than I give my brain credit for it in my head. So I think I do start with

a blank page. I don't have notes, or I might occasionally have written down something that's a small point. But what I do have is a really clear premise with body of Lies. It was very much like Gemma's at the hospital, dealing with her own sort of tragedy Family challenge. Then from Sideways, this amazing crime happens where a body

is stolen from the morgue. Very strange, obviously go what happens, so that's very clear when I sit down and start writing and I think in my mind that question really continues to beat through every time I'm sitting down to write, I'm like, Is this still interesting? Is it making sense? Is it moving along in the way that I know

it needs to as a reader? And I think the other thing that I do have and I don't know if this analogy makes sense, but and I'm certainly not a painter, but I imagine that when someone starts to think about painting something, they don't know exactly what it's gonna look like. But they have a plan in their mind of what they're trying to create. I will certainly have key beats of the story. So with this book, I guess that there's the overall premise,

which is very clear to me. There's then Gemma's having all of these family issues that will end up being quite. I know there's a lot of drama that's gonna come from that. I know what I want to be a big reveal in that subplot perspective. Do you know what the end of that subplot is? Yeah, I did know with that, that family specific secret subplot I knew what that was. I also knew that she

was gonna start having doubts about her personal relationship. Would add to the sort of drama and stress of her investigating the crime. I knew that I wanted her friendship with her old friend Candy to be a big part of the book in terms of an important relationship that she really relies on. So that needed to be clear. And I knew she needed to have some tension with her old boss that would really question her relationship with him, which came at

a time where she was always also thinking about her career. Well, I, I do know that I've got all of these things that I need to cover off, but I don't always know exactly how. Yeah, Did you know who the perpetrator was? No. But I did know to be honest, Ma, mainly with my books. I always know that it's gonna be one of, say, five people, which is exactly how I

think it should be when you read a book. Yeah, so it's almost for me feels like I am writing, but as a reader, it's the same process that I have. When I read other people's books where I'm working toward going, it could be that person. It could be that person it could be that person and really it should and could be any of those people. And then it ends up being one of them. And as long as there's a really clear motivational through line for that to be the case, then that I think

a good outcome for a story. But I know as I was writing it, it could have also been any of the other four people as well. And so it's almost like I'm writing it as the way I would read it. And then hopefully that means that where I get to is a good story. If you don't know exactly who did it, then the reader's not gonna necessarily know.

Yeah, absolutely. That again. It sounds all very planned. This is, you know, me and my mind, just hoping for the best and typing into the abyss most of the time. But But obviously, when you go back and do the editing, that's also when you have the chance to wrestle things into a slightly better shape, make things a little bit clearer, ensure that the red herrings, if you have them, aren't crazy bonkers. Just swing in from left field.

All of those things. So I think the first draught is just a bit terrifying because you are just writing and hoping for the best. But you do obviously then have the chance to craft and fix and update and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's funny the whole, because there's talk about plotters and pants and I used to say, Oh, I'm a panther But I realised I just do a lot of the work in my head like it and it's processing. I just don't have it a bit like you, like I had to beat

and the kind of a feel. But I don't really know who the perpetrator is. Yeah, it's interesting, that whole thing. I wanna move to research because I'm curious because it's a police procedural. Essentially, even though she's not always employed, will it get in? But she Why do you write a police procedural with start writing? Organically, I guess. Writing straight out. How do you manage the research of the novel? I do have a bit of a a What's it

called a theory on research. So I'm very much fiction first, then back and then fix or finesse, and that the three stages of the sort of research process that I follow. And the reason for that is that, like I said before, I really need that energy and momentum in my books and particularly that first draught. If I'm not excited. Ha! Happy to keep moving with my story.

I think you can feel that on the page. So I did have to do a little bit of very light research just to make sure that the actual premise made sense. So hospital do have morgues. I needed to make sure that it was realistic that if someone died in the emergency department that they would actually be taken to the hospital morgue and how that kind of would work and what kind of timeline? So I Luckily my mother is a nurse, so she was able to give me the overall

reality of how that worked. I did a little bit of research just to have a look online, like what the hospital moves look like, and how are they managed and all of that sort of thing. But that was not significant. It was really just pressure testing my own premise. Yeah, and then once that part of it was clear I just wrote, and I wrote the book,

how I wanted it to be. From a story point of view, I would occasionally have to look up online just some of the procedural pieces and just make sure that things made sense broadly so that I wasn't writing 20,000 words on something that just wasn't feasible in any way. As there's quite a health layer in this story, I do just have to orient myself around what is happening in that world at the moment and making sure that some of the things I was talking about were true and realistic. But I would.

I don't know how I would quantify this, but the overall research that I would have done for that first draught would be less than a week's worth of effort, because it's really just making sure that there's feasibility around the premise of the book. Once I've got the drawer, that's when I go back and sort of fact check my own story, and I'm very clear that I'm not asking open ended questions of experts. I am very much Is this feasible or possible, Yes or no, because I'm not writing a

diary of a police officer. I am writing an extraordinary once in a career type case because that's what is making it an interesting book. Hopefully it just for your paperwork. Yeah, thing. And so I think it's really difficult for experts when you're asking them about their job. They want to be telling you what's realistic and how it actually works, and I want that. But I also don't want that because this is supposed to be a A story, and it

is an extraordinary story. That's why it's made a good premise, right? So I'm very much just checking. Is this feed the book? Could this happen? If this happened, could it be the response of a police officer and people get a bit? It's technically possible, and I'm like, Good. And that's all I want from you, The same with the medical information and the science information any like law information. I'm not looking for what is necessarily the most likely not

in my books at the moment. Anyway. Maybe that would be in a different kind of book. I'm really wanting to understand. Have I written a story that is within the realm of possibility And then, obviously, occasionally I'll come up with something and they'll say, No, it's not And I'm so then I will have to go back and change it and make sure that it amended in a way that it does fit into that

feasible world. And then there's a lot of connecting, obviously, and a lot of the editing that I find I have to do is timeline management. So the order of things, particularly with like DNA testing and things like that, like certain things can't happen quickly. Sometimes things can. And just having to make sure the procedural order of events is accurate and realistic so that someone's not reading the book and just being like, Oh, this is I can't engage with this story because I

know that's not lipstick. That's what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't mind if they're a little bit like, Well, I don't think this is likely, but it's a pretty cool story that's fine. That premise of fiction first fiction the genre, I think, is reading that requirement. You are wanting an escape from reality, and they want a realistic story in an unrealistic kind of moment in time. In someone's world. And so I think that's where I'm circling around, getting right.

Yeah. The other thing I was I really liked about what you said was not ask, not asking open ended questions because one of my things I was gonna ask you is do you have any tips for writers who have problems in their manuscript about how to one how to find information experts, things like that, But also then how you manage it? So you've already given that one to the no open ended question? Yeah. Any any other tips for writers on how to find? And look, I think

I actually think open ended questions. Have a play, have a role to play if you don't have a premise. So I think if you were at the start of a sort of creative project and you have got some thoughts or maybe you've got a character or a setting, I think at that point, if you had access to an expert of some kind, asking them open ended questions

at that stage would actually be helpful. I think, in generating some concepts and ideas because they might say something that you're like, Oh, that's a really good thought, but I think that for me anyway, there comes a point in my book where I don't want more feedback than I can handle. I actually really just want to start home like I wanna hone in on where I'm at with my story, not open up more books. So I find that's when I cut out the opening question because I just I

can't you get overwhelmed. I think the editing process is already overwhelming for me, so I don't want to then throw in a whole another like range of really overwhelming feedback. So I think that's where I start to get pretty brutal about the yes or no kind of question. But in terms of just advice from from a research point of view, I think it's just engaging in all different kinds of information sources. Podcasts are amazing whether they're true

crime or more fictional or opinion. I constantly get ideas from listening to deep dive into different, whether it's a, um, a cold case or just a news report or, uh, it could just be something like like a chatty lifestyle podcast, and you pick up little thoughts about characters or generations or whatever. So I think it's just being open to wherever idea might come from

and being curious and going to events. And you go to writer's events and listening to people talking about where they get their inspiration from and, yeah, all of those types of things. So I think it's just engaging in the world. You can go and watch a criminal trial. That's something that you're able to do as a member of the public. So if your cape has one, go and watch one look up news reports and transcripts online.

There is a lot of information out there you can access these days particularly, so I think it's just engaging in all of those things. And then it's that kind of thing. Be really broad at the start and then get really specific because you do need to get to a point where you stop collecting information and you write your book. And I know I don't know how people do historical, and I honestly

do not understand it because I would. I think I would really struggle to shift from research mode to writing mode and feeling like I had enough information I'd get so bored. I think within two days I'd be like, I need you to start writing And then obviously I'd have no historical context, so it wouldn't make

any sense. So I think it's amazing to me that people have the skill that they can go deep on research and then come out of that and write I am, I think too impatient for that to ever be something that I could do properly. So this genre obviously suits me better and this approach or the kind of idea of fiction. First, it also suits me better because it it means I get words down.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So something in your writing that stands out is your ability to keep raising the tension like that is something that I would say is if all your books have that you just keep piling on called J or Ollie or whoever the main character is. But do you have any kind of tips and tricks for tension like it? Does it happen in your first draught? Or is it something you have to go and pull out later or yeah, any tips or ideas about tension in a novel?

I think I do have to give my editor, Kate Gold wory a shout out. I always think of her like a director directing an actor and going like that, but more do another take, but ring more to it like she very much is saying to me, Go harder. Don't be scared about really putting your character through the ringer like just this bit more so. I think the second draught definitely often is where some of that

attention really does get elevated, amplified. I tend to be a bit softly soft touch in the draught, I think, where I'm a bit scared to fully put them through the ringer. And I think that's also something that perhaps I have learned from the first and subsequent books is that it's OK to really load up someone up with a lot of stuff in a crime book. You you can keep hitting them until they almost can't

take any more. Yeah, that's sort of part of the whole process, and readers are OK to go with you on that, I think, yeah, I think it is. It's little things. It's obviously the way you end chapters and the readability of making sure you. You are giving people enough C crumb that they want to keep reading and enough little moments of doubt. Like I call them. It's It's red herrings, but it's

actually not just red herrings. It's also just little little senses of unease about certain characters where you're like, What is your motivation and what are you all about? And I think that thats the same as we do in life. Totally. It's very curious, I think for me and again, this sounds strategic. I'm probably not so consciously thinking of this

when I write. But how do I make sure that people are feeling a spark of curiosity when they're reading my books, making sure that there's that constant like, I just don't know about you and I'm not sure about this situation and you're warning that kind of intrigue. It's a bit palpable, really, from the get go and sometimes even doubting characters that people have come to. I think that's always really interesting when you've got a series is that you can play around with you like this

person and we all like this person. But actually they've gotten themselves into a bit of a pickle here So now how do we feel about them? So you're having this constant re eval evaluation. And because the Dark qua series is written in the first person, I suppose you're always having it from Gemma's perspective. So it's also that emotional investment that hopefully people have, where if she's sad about someone letting her down or someone that she thought she knew that it seems like

perhaps she doesn't. You want that to hit pretty hard emotionally, because you should be in it with her. And we all know what that's like in real life, too, where someone disappoints you. So it's just that, yeah, it's unease, tension. It's sometimes a bit of a shock. And I guess you're balancing all of those things. And I think that if you get that balance broadly right or as right as possible, then hopefully it it results in the tension you're talking about.

You also had some short, punchy chapters which help with and is making the chapter shorter, and your sentence structure changes a bit and you get a bit more di. Yeah, I think people do that really Well, I'm actually not sure I'm right at that, because I read sometimes other people's books, and I think, Oh my God, the way that you've just managed little short, punchy chapters I think that some people have a real in that regard. I'm my structure. Stuff's a bit looser.

It's not a style. It It's different in every book. But yeah, I guess you're trying to adapt the writing and the energy of the reading experience to match what's happening in the book. So if there's kind of moments that are hard and fast shock, then you don't want meandering long chapter that are explaining things. So I think you are. Yeah, you would. I am trying to adapt to that kind of energy, and I wanna I just wanna touch back on point of view because in The Housemate,

which was your stand alone novel, you did third person. OK, you have it from two points of view, and I wanted to talk a bit about the advantages and disadvantages of 1st and 3rd and what you're writing, because they're both all in present tense. But it's the Yeah, 1st and 3rd is the Yeah, I found it really hard.

I have to say, Did you search the third person. Yeah, I think because I had written in first, which is so immediate, and it's got inbuilt momentum and energy in it, which I think suits the way I think and write more. Whereas I had to flip that perspective to be a bit more observational and reflective, and I had to change my pace, I think, to make that feel realistic, and I it took me a while to just get used to it. I kept flipping back into first person and then realising that I didn't

know how he thought the character in the housemate. I was like, I'm not Gemma anymore. Like it's a different person. She's less impulsive and all those things. So I do think it worked really well for the house mate. I think it was the right decision, but it did take me a while just to get used to it, and I am writing a sequel to the housemaid at the moment, and so back in third person, I say I'm writing it. I actually touched the dreamer, but I should be writing it, and that's

in third person as well. And again, I actually feel like sometimes I physically have to go click into a different like gear because you can't take shortcuts like in first person. You just say what that person's thinking and you're seeing the world from their eyes. It's all very clear the perspective for me. There's obviously things that they can't see and they don't know. And that's annoying because you then have to work out. How do they get that information?

How does the reader get that information? So there's challenges in first person. There's limitation definitely within first person, whereas in third person you've got that omnipresent sort of ability. So it's a bit easier to reveal information and different things can happen. The person necessarily have to see and all of that type of thing. But yeah, I do find first person, I think, is more my natural style. So I have to work a bit harder to make the person work. OK,

you've also explored different settings in your novels. So you've had Country city coastal country again, and obviously it's been a huge thing with crime novels being set in country town. So what are the advantages and disadvantages of setting a novel in the country versus the city? I think with a country town, you can have more

coincidences than you can in a city. So because everyone knows of each other, even if they don't know each other and there's a smaller setting in terms of physical location, coincidences are more easily explained and not don't feel as F, whereas in a city setting you can't have people tripping over each other randomly when there's millions of people and like it's it's different. I found particularly going from the Dark Lake to into the night. That whole journey for Gemma was very much going from

a town where she knew so much. Everything was so familiar. Whereas when she moved to the city, it was this anonymity that was really important and also a sense of just being quite alone and not knowing anybody. And so I think that you can just play around with different relationships in that way. Yeah, definitely. And OK, so I just want to touch really briefly on Final Act, which was your audio first book. Did you have to write differently for an audio first?

I didn't start out as an audio book, so I guess I not. Initially I it was actually the first thing I ever wrote before the Dark Lake. I'd started the idea. Uh, yeah. I started this idea ages ago, got stuck, couldn't get it to work, had about 20,000 words sitting there, flipped to the dark lake that obviously was successful and managed to get an agent and pitch it and all those things. And then I was at a writer's event or festival I can't remember.

And someone from Audible heard me talking about this manuscript that I'd park and the premise of it contacted me and said, I'm interested in that. Do you think you finish it? And then that's how that happened. Yeah, I had to go back and work out if I could finish it, and I did still struggle with it a little bit. It's a It's quite a tricky story because it's it is still crime fiction, but it doesn't have traditional prot protagonist. There's no detective. There's no journal. There's no lawyer.

So there's a surgeon main character, not an investigator, but ends up being a quasi detective. So it's a bit tricky logistically to make that all work. But yeah, it was a really good challenge, like picking up a book that I'd abandoned reenergizing it and making it work and finishing it. I think I was aware of the audio bit when I was writing it, just to the extent of maybe more, just clear out sort of description, like lots of dialogue and just but not in a way that I think

I really wrote differently. Yeah, maybe just in the editing process. I was a bit aware of just being really clear with the dialogue and yeah, but I think the process is broadly pretty in LA At least it was for me. OK, that's interesting. And then you you mentioned before that gem is going into a TV series. I think you said yes. How has that been like? That is Obviously a lot of writers dream of seeing their books on the screen. Are you involved in that process? How long has it taken?

Just give us a bit of Yeah, I am. I'm very excited because it feels like it's actually going to happen, but it has been, I think, seven years in the process. So I'm also a little bit reserved in that there's still quite a few hoops that it needs to jump through before it actually is in production. But it's certainly feeling very promising at the moment. So there's a A streaming partner has come on board. The production company has always been very committed to finding it

at home. There's an actress attached, so it certainly feels like a gathering momentum. But TV is even more fickle than publishing, apparently. Yeah, I don't think we'll realise how long it can take. Like you might get something so long if it stays optioned for ever long. A piece of string is, yeah, yes, there's so much money that needs to be found to fund things.

I always joke that when I want a dramatic thing and need to call in ambulances and fire engines, I just ride it, whereas in a TV, show it that $400,000 or something. So it's a different creative process. But yeah, I am quite involved. They're They've been amazing, wanting to make sure that I feel good about the way that they're looking to interpret it. So I'm not a producer. I'm not going to be writing it. There's a lead writer that's been brought onto the project and I'm very happy with that.

But yeah, I'm involved, I don't know, almost like a consulting kind of role. So I will be in the writer's room for some of it. And then I will certainly review like the first episode that they write and just stay across the project broadly, which is perfect for me. I don't wants to be hugely involved. I'm really happy for them to take it in whatever direction they think needs to

work for TV. I know it's a different sort of format, but it's really nice to be asked my opinion and just to be involved in that sort of the rural way. So yeah, like fingers crossed, it makes it all the way through. It's exciting. It's so exciting. OK, I've only got a couple little question. What's the best of writing life for you? What's the best part? Yeah, I think like I said earlier, that vibe that finishing a project and holding it, I guess, is always just an incredibly

rewarding moment. And I do. I think I've become quite addicted to that sort of feeling because otherwise I just don't think I would keep doing. It's just I think it is just yeah, so rare to have something that you can hold and say I think that you've kind of done and I really think that for me important. But there's so many things about it that are amazing, like just the privilege of getting to create world and character of the story. It is special, and I'm really glad that I want to do that and

that I get to do that. And I do sometimes look at other people and think, Oh, you'll never have that and I they don't want it So they're not happy about it, But I'm like, Oh, I really enjoy that And so I'm glad that I've had that experience and then just other writers, I think talking to other people about their ideas and their stories, and I just I already work in an industry that's very much around ideas and communication, and I just never cease to amaze me just how many

ideas there are out there and just the different ways in to solving different problems. And it's just so reassuring that there is just always going to be art for evermore because people just always have ideas and I really love being in industries that are adjacent to that. That kind of creativity. And then, yeah, I think obviously meeting readers and having them tell you what they thought of your book is a

kind of privilege. And you used to I don't know if this is the thing for you, Ray, but you've I'm very aware that I've written books and that they're out in the world and they're being read, But you don't really think about it very much. Someone comes up to you and says, I've read your book and I think it's even more highlighted when it's a book that you wrote five years ago and there telling you that I read it. I don't know last week and you, you're like, Oh, yeah, forget people are

still reading those books and that's just it's amazing. And it's very strange. Um, yeah, I really appreciate that anyone's read any of my books, but having them tell you what they thought of it, how they interpret it, what they liked, what they didn't like, like it's just I love it. I don't mind if they don't like it. It's still great to have that dialogue and that kind of interaction. So, yeah, there's lots of things I like about it. That's great. We will almost finish there. I just have

to ask Japan's favourite question for writers. What is at the heart of your writing and what ties your six novels together? What do you think? I think ethical dilemmas probably is the theme that when you really boil it all down it good people making good or bad choices and bad people making good or bad choices. And they happen to be in a world of voicing and journalism and law and things like that. But they're still just people, and I think that's like the

characters around. That world is also what I'm fascinated by. So, yeah, ethical quandaries and what makes people tick, I think, is essentially what I'm really always trying to unpack and understand. Yeah, absolutely. I so enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for sharing all your tips and about various areas of writing. It was really interesting. A huge congratulations on body of lies and I can't wait to hear Read the sequel to the housemate.

Oh, I need to finish it first, obviously. So I have to wait for a little while, but no, hopefully that will work its way into a book at some point as well. But I thank you. I've really enjoyed talking to you as well. Thank you.

You can find details on the website on how to support the podcast through Patreon, and you can connect with me through the website at writes Forewomen.com on Instagram and Twitter at W for W podcast. The Facebook page writes for women or find me and my writing at Pamela cook.com dot au. Thanks for listening. Have a great week and remember every word you write your one word closer to typing Nan