Writing vs Storytelling
Matt: [00:00:00] Well, well, well, if it isn't christina
Christina: and Matt
Matt: and Matt, you know what this is, this is Write Out Loud, the podcast where we talk about all kinds of things related to the art and craft of writing and storytelling. And today it is exactly. The combination or confluence or intersection of those two things that we're going to explore a little bit more and really get into depth about what is the key difference between writing and storytelling.
So first of all, how the heck are you?
Christina: I'm good. How the heck are you?
Matt: Oh, so good. So good. I thought you'd have a lot to say about this topic this week. So I really wanted to spend some time on
Christina: it. I am very opinionated about this.
Matt: And that's good. That's good. So yeah, I mean, right out the gate, the key question is, what is the key difference between writing and storytelling?
What's, what the heck is the difference between the two?
Christina: Well, I'm actually going to take you back. [00:01:00] When I first realized that there's a difference between the two I was invited to be a speaker at Seton Hill University, which at the time had one of the only if not the only master's program in fiction writing so you could get your masters in fiction and during the lunch I was invited by one of the one of the alumni because she and I went to high school together and We went out to lunch with a couple of her friends and at the time Twilight was all the rage and so, they decided to, as writers Masters, graduates really wanted to analyze and pick it apart.
And it occurred to me that they did not take into consideration [00:02:00] the popularity and, with, writers of a certain nature, shall we say someone who has a degree or a master's degree in writing can sometimes take a highbrow approach to that sort of thing, but I've never been able to do that because that is It's Where I found my love of reading and where I still continue to find my love of reading is just in magical stories.
I don't judge. I don't say this writer is, better than that writer or so forth. There's differences. There are some who are better than others, but this is the moment that I realized that they didn't understand that there is a difference in storytelling. And writing, and they could take all the classes on writing they wanted, but could they capture a storytelling voice?
Stephanie Meyer [00:03:00] captured a storytelling voice. She couldn't have sold, the millions of copies of the Twilight Saga that she did. And the thing is, is that I did. I also. Started out on that other side until there was a moment I was at comic con in New York and the pay per view in the hotel room was Twilight and my roommate was like, Oh my God, you gotta watch it.
You gotta watch it. I'm like, I don't want to watch it. I don't want to watch it. And the movie was equally horrific as it was. Sucking me in. Mm-Hmm. . And because I'm a reader and a storyteller, connoisseur, I had to find out what was different in the book than the movie. What did I miss?
Because there's always something that you miss in translation from book to movie.
Matt: Sure.
Christina: And so I went through and, and I, became obsessed with them. And I think [00:04:00] I bought like the first couple of the series while I was in New York and. Then, continue to read them, when I was at home and I loved the books.
Yes, sometimes overly dramatic, but if you actually look at the way she tells the story, I think you see that there's a bigger picture going on. And so at this lunch, as they were, analyzing Twilight I sat back in my seat and I said, you know what, though, not one of you would not want to make a living from your writing.
You have a master's degree in fiction. You're already pursuing it. So you can't tell me different. And I said, she's, in Stephanie Meyer, she is laughing y'all to the bank, she's making the money that these writers want to make sure she has, she doesn't have to write any more books ever again, [00:05:00] if she doesn't want to, or you could look at it even the opposite.
She can write. Anything she wants to, she has given herself the freedom by, writing these books and making that money to be able to write whatever she wants. Any publisher is going to pick her up. They're going to pay her millions of dollars, even if the next ones are flaps. The thing is.
The difference between storytelling and writing is storytelling tends to be the structure of what you do. So with Stephanie Meyer, it is actually in New Moon, those months. That are just on blank pages, November, December, January, February they convey an emotion. Whereas just writing she was a zombie until, March or April or whatever it was the month, that doesn't convey the emotion that the blank page does.
And yes, I'm certain that anybody could come on this podcast and make the argument. Well, that's [00:06:00] writing. Okay, but I actually view it more as the storytelling aspect because that is the richness. That is the voice. That is the way in which she chooses to write. So maybe, storytelling for me is actually the creativity, the individuality, the direct choices.
a particular author makes in which to tell their story, tell the story that they're, they're doing. So for me, when I distinguish between storytelling and writing, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And the thing is from that moment at that lunch, I decided, okay, this is something that writers are not understanding that if someone is selling, Then maybe you should figure out what about their stuff, since they are overly dramatic, since [00:07:00] about, they're about sparkly vampires, which, people tend to want to laugh at.
What was it about these books though that made, and yes, most of them were teenage girls, but that was the target audience. Yep. Bella herself was a teenage girl but again. Stephanie Meyer made bank. So, it's, it's worth it. And in fact I don't even know how much later it was. It could have been months.
It could have been, a year later. I did hear back from my friend from that lunch and she said, I read it. I get it, so that was, that was an interesting conversation that just, yeah. Again, I used to talk to writers groups about this type of thing, because when I started editing, I discovered you can be a clean writer, technically good, get your grammar, get the sentence structure, get all of the minute [00:08:00] details of that.
And not hit your mark. Whereas you could be lacking in the grammar and the structure and those sorts of things. But if you have that storytelling voice, that way of drawing the reader in, you are going to be successful. So you can be a good storyteller. without being a good writer, but it's not necessarily true the opposite direction.
You can't necessarily be a good writer just by being a good writer without that great storytelling voice.
Matt: So it sounds a little bit too, like to me, I look at it this way. Storytelling is the art where writing is the science. Yes.
Christina: Yes. Oh, perfect. Perfect. It's, it's the creativity. It is the imagination. It is.
The ability for Stephanie Meyer [00:09:00] to sit there and go, do you know what would be so dramatic at this moment after Edward walks away? Sorry, spoilers. If you haven't read it, it's too late.
Matt: That's on you.
Christina: But those months, page after page, I remember reading it and thinking, oh, my God, when is this going to end?
But then in turn, I thought to myself, oh, my God, my months were February, March, April. And then may I woke up because that's. It's the piece of writing that the reader can relate to, can feel, yeah.
Matt: It's the emotion. It's the rawness. It's the, yeah. It's the personality. Yep. I
Christina: like it. So if you're going to develop one, develop your storytelling.
Focus on storytelling. Workshops, seminars, focus on storytelling, aspect because the writing can be fixed. The writing can be fixed by [00:10:00] a really great copy editor. The writing can be fixed by, your next door neighbor who is an English high school, high school English teacher someone who in your family who is really good at grammar, those things can be fixed.
It's, it's the storytelling that can't be missed because if you miss the storytelling, you may get the Pulitzer prize for, your novel but it might not be a bestseller. So it depends on what you're looking for. If you're just looking for the awards and the accolades that way, focus on the writing.
If you want to make a career out of out of writing, then work on your storytelling voice.
Matt: Excellent. And I, we've touched a little bit on this. I think we've sort of like dabbed on it as we went through. Yes. But let's, let's draw it out a little bit more. So yeah, how does the art of [00:11:00] storytelling itself influence the process of actually putting pen to paper of writing?
Christina: Well, I think storytelling takes much more, again, leaning on that creativity on the story itself on the characters. So when I work with my clients, I I always tell them start with the characters, build the characters, because then the characters will influence where the story is going to go. It's going to influence what kind of conflicts are going to come up for the characters.
Cause you're certainly not going to create a character that is afraid of heights that is going to go rock climbing. With no problem, the the character itself is going to influence what happens in the story. And that, again, comes from that creativity and the storytelling aspect of it and not necessarily writing, I
Matt: think, I think to me, too, it stands to reason that if you're if you're thinking about the process or that that [00:12:00] art rather of storytelling, and then the process of writing, right, like, you have to think about, In that story, why do we care?
Like, why? Yeah, the point, right? Like, what's, what's the whole point of this? Why are we telling the story? What's what are we trying to get across? Like, we have to be able to dig into that a little bit in the story. And if you can't say it, we can't write it.
Christina: Yeah. And it's, and that is actually the creativity within the storytelling is bringing in that emotion.
How do you bring in emotion in writing? And it's not it. Saying she felt sad, it is showing her feeling sad. It is describing her face with the one tear coming down with a certain look that's when it comes down to those are storytelling tools versus writing tools, the show versus tell a tell is always going to be,[00:13:00] boring.
Now you do want the balance of the two because you, you can't always just show and then it gets too flowery and then it goes, then you're writing, five pages of the color of a flower that, you know. Yeah. Is growing in the wild, and that can be also boring
pages.
Matt: It's like drudgery at that point.
It's just like, Oh, my God, just tell me it's a big green hill. Like, I don't need to hear about all the shades of green. And
Christina: this, this is where a good editor that is going to cut some stuff, for you might come in handy.
Matt: I think a distinction, to make right there to just to touch on that.
Right. And again, the process of writing, you talked about a copy editor versus a. An editor editor, right? Like somebody who, and they can be one of the same, but they might also be two distinctly different people.
Christina: Okay. So my rule of thumb is you should always have at least three eyes on the manuscript before [00:14:00] you publish or before you send it to, New York.
Um, you know, maybe to get published by New York, so you. Ideally. You've gone over it, you've written it, you've, maybe taken a second look at it, fixed some things, then you hand it over to either what is called a developmental editor or a content editor. That type of editor is actually going to look More at the bigger picture, the umbrella, the flow, the pacing, the characters themselves, the story or their plot holes, what's, what's missing, what needs to be added, what, doesn't work the bigger picture items.
Then, for me, I actually do two drafts with my clients. That's the first draft is the really big picture. And then the second draft, [00:15:00] we. We get more into the details that either they fixed or maybe something from the first draft that wasn't quite fixed, then my job is done. Because if I look at that manuscript anymore for details like grammar, I'm going to miss everything.
I'm going to miss everything. I've seen it too much. They've seen it too much. This is where it needs to go to that third set of eyes, either after the second or third draft, depending on, how many you want to do. Some people even do four or five drafts before they send it off to the copy editor, copy editor or a line editor.
Those to me are the last, the last, last person to see the manuscript to fix the grammar details that maybe, you missed because you were concentrating on, other, other things, the characters, the plot, the, the overall story. So yeah, that's, that's kind of my process.
That's what I suggest for people. I do know one of my favorite. [00:16:00] I heard from her that she has no less than three editors. I even said, well, my gosh, what do all three editors do? And. Her way of thinking is, she has one that sees it right after she's written it, the raw stage, someone who really can work with it and, give her some good feedback, then she has someone else, look at it next and then, more copy editing on down the road.
So she actually has like. Five eyes that see it before she publishes and she's hybrid. So she does Indy and traditional publishing. So she'll still have now, I don't know for positive if she still has those same people look at it before she sends it to New York. But if I were a writer and that were my process, I'd still do that before New York.
And in fact. Before I went out on my own while still working for Borders, [00:17:00] I did have some authors come to me and ask me if I would edit because their particular editor in New York doesn't really dig into that process. And I think that's the standard for New York. I don't think that they really dig into the content, the developmental editing.
They do the copy editing. There are copy editors in New York period, that's their, their editors. That are in office tend to be the advocate for the book. So they're the 1 in the marketing meetings, the cover art meetings, the, placement meetings with retailers and, those sorts of things.
And those are very, very important. And there just isn't enough time for that editor to also be digging in like they did, back in the day with Harper Lee, they would sit down and actually talk with their editor and work on the manuscript and do things like that. Today's editor [00:18:00] just doesn't, have time for that.
But you actually do really need someone to be your advocate at the publisher. And that's who, the editor is. I would love to get some New York editors on here. So I'll probably put a call out to some of them that I know and ask them if they'd come on and talk about their process and stuff.
Cause I really don't know for certain if, some of them do get in there. On the other hand from some. Authors that I've spoken to some of them about actually had their editor rewrite some stuff that they didn't think they did well. And that to me was like, Oh my God. Oh, no, hope I'm not telling any state secrets, but that's why, you really do have to be careful if you do publish with New York, that that's really what you want to do.
And you got to be smart about it. And, have an agent and sometimes, getting, okay. The agent after they've requested, your material is, is probably easier than trying to get an agent and then selling to New York, but that's another [00:19:00] podcast. Let's not get too far into that.
Yeah. Yeah. Storytelling versus radio.
Matt: Yeah. So, and again, too, I think this one we've touched on a little bit, but just to call it out, can someone be a skilled writer without being a good storyteller? And I think you kind of said, Yeah. Yeah.
Christina: No I, okay, there's going to be the one in the one in a million person who's a very good writer.
No. Yeah. No, when I think about it, if you do not have storytelling, if you do not have that element of the story that sucks. Us readers in then no, then I'm just reading the newspaper. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes there's nonfiction and newspaper articles, sometimes when I read articles out of the Atlantic, some of those writers.
are magical story weavers. And that's news items. But then, I mean, you can think of really dry dryly written nonfiction news and that sort of thing. But I can [00:20:00] also think of people like John Krakauer or Sebastian Younger or Glennon Doyle, who are Wonderful, wonderful nonfiction writers. So I'm trying to think.
Matt: It's still storytelling it seems like, right? Yeah. Oh, feel like you still have, yeah, because
Christina: you can't. It absolutely is. Oh God, I'm going to get the title wrong The Devil in the White City. And I can't remember who the author is right now but about the world's fair in Chicago and the the, the murder house and all of that.
I mean, it reads like a novel. It reads like a Jack the Ripper novel. So I mean, it's, it's just fantastic. Now that's a storyteller, Eric Larson. Yes.
Matt: Eric Larson. Yeah.
Christina: I forget Eric Larson. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, if you have and read it.
Matt: I have not. I'll have to. I'll have to.
Christina: Yes. But I don't read it. Don't read it in the dark in your bedroom at night and [00:21:00] starving outside and yeah, no, it's great.
Matt: It's great. Yeah. No, and I think, my two cents on this one. Yeah. I think you, if you don't have that. Ability to tell a story or to weave a tale or to breathe life into it. You're drawing symbols on a paper bag. Like that's it.
Christina: Yeah. And it's just, and if you think about like back in, when I was still working for borders and would go to writers conferences and they'd have editors and agents and people would be doing pitch sessions, aspiring writers would be doing pitch sessions with them, part of that had to be those editors, those agents listening for that storytelling ability, like, here's the story that I'd like to tell, and they, tell it in like, five sentences three minute elevator pitch and however that was conveyed, that's why I do say storytelling is. Not just writing novels and nonfiction but it is TV, [00:22:00] movies, music, auditory, TED Talks can be really great storytelling, a really good Oprah interview. Is good storytelling, a good Brene Brown her Netflix series, or even there's some YouTube videos her Ted talk, of course that made her famous.
But one of my favorite ones is gosh, what's it called? Something 99. It's a creativity. Feature that they, they had her, they asked her to come and speak and she is hilarious when she's talking about it, but she's basically talking about the courage to be, creative and, and today Roosevelt's speech about not allowing the critics.
In, if you're not in the arena, I'm not interested in your feedback is her thing. And that's the truth. Someone in order to kind of let go and allow yourself to be a good storyteller is to actually put those critics [00:23:00] aside and just say, what can I do without all the noise in my head?
Without those critics, without, the idea of, oh, I've got to pitch this to an editor or an agent or, put it up on self publishing. What can I do in the intimacy of my office, my laptop, that would be just a great story. And that's where everyone should be starting. That's where everyone should be starting is without that critic.
That's why I'm not. One of those who, like, gives you an entire list of books to read about writing I actually have a bunch of nonfiction stuff that I say, do this, do that and one of those is Brene Brown with her Gifts of Imperfection as one That creative 99 or whatever it is, I'll have to find it and we'll post it on the website.
That, yeah, it's, [00:24:00] it is allowing yourself the room without judgment, without anything holding you back because those are the ones that are going to, push the envelope and be great. And the thing is, readers will always tell you they want the same thing, more of this, more of this.
And sometimes they'll say, well, we want something different, but then they get mad because you've done something different. And, but what they really, really mean is actually they want the great. Storytelling new way of telling the same old story. Let's go back to Stephanie Meyer. They want the vampires.
But this time they don't want them to sparkle. They want them to do something else, what is, what is the popular one right now? The TV show What We Do in the Shadows? I've never watched it, but it's one of those that, people are really beginning to talk about it. It's just coming back, and like, Funko Pop is now releasing [00:25:00] all of the, yeah, figurines, so it's gotta be getting up there.
Matt: Lock and key too.
Christina: Yeah. So it's, it's the idea that you can go, okay, here's the story I'm going to tell, but how am I going to be different from other people? How am I going to tell this differently? Or if there is a wholly unique story that you want to tell, that's what the world needs, cause if you notice right now specifically with Hollywood.
They are really going through books, going through video games, comic books. Where are the original screenplays? Where are the original TV shows? Right now they're, redoing. Some of them are being, being done very, very well. Last of us Heartstopper just to name a few but where are the new stories?
Yeah.
Matt: Well, let's talk a little bit [00:26:00] about techniques and things. So if you think about different techniques or elements that are unique to storytelling Writing. Maybe they don't show up as much or as, or at all in writing, right? But they are there as a unique like technique or element in storytelling itself.
Christina: Well, let's go back to Stephanie Meyer again. And those one word, the month on the page on a blank page. So what ways can you use those kinds of techniques? Thank you. James Fry, controversial wrote the book a million little pieces that was later outed as fiction. Had he just presented it at fiction, I think it's still would have done just as well.
But you know, he wrote that in like just a conscious thought, almost no sentence structure. But when you think in terms of the addicted mind, he was an addict. Or the person who wrote it, the fictional character who wrote it, whatever. Was an addicted mind and that's how that was conveyed.
[00:27:00] So your best tool for storytelling is to actually. Figure out what is going to convey that character, that emotion, that, whatever it is that you're trying to convey with Stephanie Meyer, it was the depth of Bella's heartbreak and how many months it took her to take over James Fry was the idea that this addicted mind had no structure to it.
It was just, random thoughts. Um. You know, again, where can you take that with what it is that you're doing? So again, when you're sitting down with those characters, that's the place and time to figure out, Oh, James Fry, this would be a really great way to tell an addict story. There, it's hard to say specific tools [00:28:00] because the sky's the limit.
No, I take that back. There is no limit. There's no limit. Yeah. You can do whatever you want as long as it makes sense and serves the story reader has. Yeah. And it serves the story. Yep. It does have to make sense to the reader, and part of the reason why we have grammar and structure to sentences is because that's how we communicate.
That's how people are understood. That's how we know who is speaking. If there is no said. Sure. You can't have a million. He said, she said, they said, yep. You've gotta vary it. You've gotta pull it out and sometimes just know who's talking. That sort of thing.
Matt: I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do think it's, you, a good challenge is to do this.
You think about two people in your life that have recently told you a story. Yeah. Everybody knows somebody who told you a story that you're like, oh my God, is this ever gonna end ? Like, I have no idea. Yes. Why they're even telling me this, but oh my [00:29:00] gosh, they're all wrapped up in it, but I'm not like I have no, I don't, I don't get it right.
Like, and, and think about. Why that is, why did that story not connect with you? Yeah. Yeah. Was it, how did they, how did they tell it? What was the content? Like, just throw all the bits and pieces in there and try to figure out, like do like a post mortem on it. And then think of one that you've heard from somebody recently that you were just like eating out of the palm of their hand.
Like you wanted to know more, or like you were just as engaged as if you were sitting right there with them experiencing that whole thing. Right. Like how did that happen to you? And just, just compare and contrast. Like what was different? What made it? Come to life for you.
Christina: Exactly. Exactly. There is no harm in digging into something like, the story I told at the beginning of this podcast had those students.
Thought to look at something and say, okay, this is highly successful, but it's crap . What made it good from a [00:30:00] technical standpoint? Yeah. It's from a tech, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in their mind it was crap. Sure. And I can sit here as an editor and say, were there some things that I would've, helped her with
Of course. Yes. , so it's not that I think she's the greatest writer in the world. She is a fantastic storyteller. There's no question about that. There is no debate, nothing. What your job as a writer is to figure out what. Made that part of her good and yes, you do actually have to read the books to understand that you can't look at the movies and see, what was done there because things are done creatively, we we talk about that in some of our podcasts.
So, yeah, it's a matter of digging in and figuring things out.
Matt: I love it. I love it.
Yeah. Well, perfect. Well, I think that [00:31:00] brings us to a nice close. Don't you think? Yeah. I think we've covered that really, really well and love the insight, love the discussion about it. I think it's, it's a fascinating
Christina: topic.
Although at some point I'm thinking. Am I that bad storyteller that Matt can't wait to get? No, no, I know. I know it's, it's it's a matter of you and I have known each other for so long. I can get into tangents.
Matt: That's okay. That's all
Christina: right. Just like I did tonight. Very good. But I get geeky about writing and storytelling and, that part of it.
Matt: Well, everybody listening is just as geeky about it. So it's all good. We're here for a reason, right? And that reason is to learn. Absolutely. That's the fountain of information and knowledge and storytelling wisdom that is. Christina. Oh,
Christina: stop.
Matt: Perfect. All right, my dear, well, that brings us to the close of another wonderful episode.[00:32:00]
Where can they find you if they want more of Christina?
Christina: You can find me online. At bookmatchmaker. com or just email me, Christina at bookmatchmaker. com or on Instagram. That's pretty much where I hang out. I am on the other social medias, but really not as much. So IG, find me at IG. They just sort of exist.
They, they exist there and every once in a while, I'll like go over there and go, Oh, wow. I have some notifications.
Matt: I did that. Didn't I?
Christina: What about you, my dear? Where can they find you?
Matt: Well, you can find all of the stuff you'd ever want to know about me at, Oh, CASSM, C A S S M dot O M G dot L O L. That sounds good.
Well, there we go. Well, another one in the bag and we'll see you again next week and we'll share some more [00:33:00] nuggets and pearls
Christina: of wisdom. Yeah. Or even just email one of us and tell us what you want, what you want to know, questions curiosities, dig in try to stump us. Find us something that we will have to dig for some answers.
That would be fun. That's
Matt: perfect. There you go. You heard it here first. All right, friends. Well, again, this is this is time for us to say goodbye. So bye. Bye.