The Truth About Imposter Syndrome
Matt: [00:00:00] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Christina: we hit record! Oh my god! Oh!
Matt: Here we go.
Christina: Okay. Don't! You're gonna give me the giggles! God, this is episode one and I can't! Ugh. Mm hmm.
Matt: right. Welcome everyone.
Christina: Uh, see? Now you're not gonna be able to do it.
Matt: No, see, we're going to back it up. Okay. Back it up like a Tonka truck.
Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud. It is Season 3. This is Episode 1. We have arrived. We have arrived officially. And of course, here with me, as I am, Matt Cassem. Here with me I have the beautiful, the amazing, the talented, the ever illustrious and glorious Christina.
Christina: Have I missed those [00:01:00] adjectives! Nobody in my world talks about me in that way. Except for maybe my dog, and he's not saying
Matt: Oh, he is. You just can't hear it.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: He's thinking those words. Well, you're welcome. Uh, it feels good to be back.
Christina: It does. I have, well I've missed you, even though, you know, you and I get together often outside of the podcast you know, because we're friends in real life, but I,
Matt: IRL,
Christina: Yes, IRL, But I have actually missed the discussions, missed, you know, the interactions, missed, you know, all the spontaneity of it.
Matt: Oh, of course, like making you crack up and giggle as we start recording.
Christina: Exactly.
Matt: Yeah. That's the fun part. Well, you know, I've, uh, [00:02:00] I've missed you too. And I'm glad we're back because this episode. We are going to spend some time on a topic that you brought up and that really couldn't have really struck a chord with you.
And that is imposter syndrome. So tell me,
Christina: and it, and it really kind of came at me in a moment. I mean, I, I work with writers on a daily basis, editing And it didn't strike me and like, you know, when something is snowballing or like all of a sudden all of my clients at one time are experiencing the same thing, a lot of times you don't notice it until like, wow, another one, wow, another one. And it was suddenly, you know, 50 percent to almost all of them. were coming to [00:03:00] me and not, not any of them, they weren't saying the words imposter syndrome. I have imposter syndrome. Most people don't say I have imposter syndrome. They just start talking about how they can't compare. So the best example is one of my clients actually, Not in direct talking to me in the beginning, but she was reading Stephen King's latest and saying she was at turn inspired and jealous. And so I brought it up later when we did talk and, you know, 1 of the things I said to her, well, 1st of all, she's on her 4th book and this was like, I don't, I'm totally guessing, but like book 100 for Stephen King. I don't know. He,
Matt: Probably a billion.
Christina: an enormous amount, so maybe it's not a hundred, but you know, however many books he has, this is that number. so comparing her work at book number four to his, [00:04:00] you know, number 100, you just can't do that. You can't do that. That's, that's too much of someone's experience that you're discounting. also the experience that you've had. not acknowledging that enough. And so, you know, we started a discussion about imposter syndrome and I realized she was like client number, you know, whatever come to me with this.
And so that afternoon, that evening I was doing something innocuous and of course that's when everything comes to you. And I heard like literally heard the phrase in my head imposter syndrome comes down to the thinking. That you have to be someone else. And I know everybody knows that's what it means because you're comparing yourself to somebody else.
And that's why you feel like an imposter. But what I'm going for here is the idea [00:05:00] that you think you have to be somebody else. In order to succeed. And that's just not the case. only have to be yourself. Why do you, you know, you can't be Stephen King on his hundredth book when you're only on your fourth, you know,
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: you can't. So you know, you've got to learn how to you know, combat that thinking. And I think the rest of what we're going to talk about in this episode is going to help everybody realize in embracing yourself. You're going to better move through imposter syndrome. So I'm not of the mind that you have to get rid of it or combat it or, you know, whatever. I think you have to move through it because I actually think after listening to all the clients and all of the, research that I've done for this episode, I actually think it comes down to the fact that you are ready level up. When you start comparing yourself [00:06:00] to Stephen King and his hundredth book. Then I think you're ready to level your own writing up is, is
Matt: Mm
Christina: When I started this research, I kept thinking about Billy Eilish and Billy Eilish, uh, won the Oscar for the song from the Barbie movie. What was I, what was I made for? What were, no, what
Matt: hmm. Yeah. We'll save it for him.
Christina: made
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: And love the song and. You know, I loved the, the piece of it in the movie. That's the, the part you and I actually talked about this. I cried.
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: because I did, I cry because of the song in the part. No, I was crying simply because of what the character Ruth Handler was saying about, you know, you know, mothers stand still so that our daughters can see how far they've come.
And it just, know, hit me because I'm of [00:07:00] a generation to actually see far that movement come.
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: so Billy Eilish back to Billy and I love the song. she won the Oscar for it. I think she's a genius. I thought she was a genius before this, but this it for me. And the reason being is because I found an interview, that really kind of backed up everything that
Matt: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Christina: know, imposter syndrome being that next level, because I really think that she was feeling the imposter syndrome going into. You know, being asked to write the song. And they really didn't give her. Much of an idea of what to write other than this was Barbie's heart song. And so in this interview she starts talking about how she started [00:08:00] writing it for Barbie, the idea of what they'd seen, like, I think it was like 30 or 40 minutes the actual beginning of the movie, but they didn't see the rest because of what the cut wasn't finished. And you know, she really didn't realize. until a couple of days after finishing the song that she wrote the song for herself. And I want to take the direct quote from interview. She said two days later, this is me, this is my life and how I feel. And the lyrics of the song are incredible. You know, who am I, what am I, what's my purpose. And I think that for her to this, Billy had won the Grammys. She had already won an Oscar prior to being asked for this one. I think she was feeling lost. [00:09:00] She even said, in a completely separate interview that of course I can't find now. Uh, but I know that it struck me because she said she was in a deep depression and that writing this song got her out of it. I think it's because she actually acknowledged. This is how I'm feeling. And she was very vulnerable and authentic. And honestly, this, the song is written at such a soul level that most people connect to it. connect to it in some way, you know, and a lot of it probably because of that imposter syndrome feel. What was I
Matt: Yeah, yep. I think
Christina: purpose?
Matt: to some degree, we've all been there. Like we've all had imposter syndrome pop up at one point or another. So it's also just very relatable. And I think that's where the whole piece of the Barbie movie entirely, right? As we [00:10:00] discussed a little bit about that movie too, that that is very relatable in that sense as well.
Like everybody can relate to
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: kind of place and out of sorts and not being
Christina: and,
Matt: they think they are. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Christina: yet, which I. Doubt a lot of people haven't, and if they haven't, they're probably not going to. But the whole point of the movie is Barbie has imposter syndrome. You know, she's all of a sudden, not her normal feeling self. But again, I think that only emphasizes what I was saying about imposter syndrome, I think is just the precursor. To that next level to whatever it is. It's your growth. your own personal growth of my next thing? What's my Billy was you know, I don't know her music that well I [00:11:00] mean, I'm, I'm aware of it and you know, I've listened to it I think everything prior to this song, I didn't so much connect to this song in particular, I, you know, on a very, very deep level connected to, and not just because, you know, Oh, I The Barbie movie and all that kind of stuff.
But again, this song to me is very, very, very personal. And I've said this on the podcast time and again, that we connect to one another. Through storytelling, through writing, through shared experiences. And when you infuse yourself into whatever it is you're writing, whether it's music, books, whatever we connect to that. That's an automatic connector. someone, just going in and [00:12:00] writing. Oh, vampires are popular. Let me write a vampire novel because that's what's popular. We're not necessarily going to connect to that. You know, if someone comes instead and says, I'm going to write a series about blue aliens,
Matt: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Christina: planet barbarians that I went down that rabbit hole, this, this, uh, break anyway, uh, thank you.
Ruby Dixon. You know, you connect to, you connect on a different level. So you know, I really do think that part of imposter syndrome is a acknowledging that you're in a growth period. are in a growth period and you can make that leap to the next level if you just lean into it. Number one, two, that, you know, you're ready to go for it. know, you
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: to [00:13:00] write what you want to write, be who you want to be. Acknowledging that, yes, Stephen King is out there, but he's got a lot more experience under his belt,
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: know? But I
Matt: I'm gonna mention Stephen King even had imposter syndrome at some point. He had to have. I mean, to think about the fact that Billie Eilish, mega star, like Billie Eilish, had
Christina: Yep.
Matt: imposter syndrome.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: you can, you can really find solace in that, right? You can think about it, it is something that happens to all of us.
It's something that happens to every single person on this planet at some point or another. They're going to feel like they just do not belong or don't cut it.
Christina: Stephen King at some point had to think to himself, he was rejected every single publisher in, you know, 1970. Whatever it was when he was shopping, [00:14:00] Carrie, Carrie came out in 73. So it had to have been prior to that, that he was shopping at every single publisher said, no, nobody is buying horror.
Yes. Those were the actual words. Nobody's buying or, and
Matt: Look at them now. Mm-Hmm.
Christina: nobody's reading horror, which That's completely, the thing is when they say stuff like that, that's because that's the only evidence that they have. They have no evidence of the readers actually wanting something from Stephen King. You know, he is the one that opened the door and said, Hey, this is my kind of horror. What do you think? You know, and people were like, Oh my God, this is so good. You know? So I
Matt: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
Christina: knowing who you are as a writer, what you want to write and simply going for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: 100%. You have to embrace it. You have to try, [00:15:00] and this is the hard part because this is the part that, you know, we're gonna kind of oversimplify, right? And we're gonna say you just try to tap into your creativity, your own voice and just create, because that is what is going to ultimately stand out. It's what's going to ring most true to everybody else is if you stay true to who you are.
Christina: Your authenticity is going to come through in the writing and that's, my argument using Billie Eilish and the song, What Was I Made For? don't think it was popularity just from the Barbie movie. Do I think, did I think being part of the Barbie movie helped? Yes, absolutely. Would she have come up with that song had she not been a with a song Greta Gerwig calls her and Phineas up and says would like a song know had she not been tasked with that. I don't [00:16:00] know that she would have come up with the song So it is directly related Although here's my caveat Billy actually says, you know a couple days after writing it god, this is me. This is my life And how I feel,
Matt: Mm
Christina: think she had subconsciously, come out of that song feeling that way. And again, I think that's because, you know, her being so authentic and letting it all go and letting it all on the paper, to speak, that she pushed herself harder. Again, in this interview she talked about. The high register that she's in for this song being very difficult to hit the notes,
Matt: hmm. Mm
Christina: tried it so many different ways.
And she actually in the [00:17:00] interview does all the different ways. And she's like, none of them worked because this is what the song wanted.
Matt: hmm. Mm hmm.
Christina: know, again, the writer geek in me, knowing how many other writers have said, this is what the characters wanted.
Matt: Right.
Christina: what, you know, Sylvia Day, uh, said it once at a conference and it stuck with me. That writer's block is you not doing what the characters want you to do. Like you trying to go completely in a different direction. And the characters are like, nope.
Matt: Not doing it.
Christina: to you anymore, not unless you do what I want you to do. You
Matt: Yeah.
Christina: but that's exactly what she's talking about.
The creativity of that particular song was only going to be that genius level. Had she listened to what the [00:18:00] song wanted, know, and again, her writing that song was her working through imposter syndrome. And coming out on the other side, knowing that she's made it to that. Well, okay.
Maybe she didn't know until she got the Oscar and maybe even after the Oscar, she doesn't quite know. But really it's the acknowledgement the Oscars, the acknowledgement. Yes. You came out on the other side and the song is genius. And you've reached that next level.
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: You've reached that next level.
Matt: So let's say here, we, we know that really everybody at some point has dealt with imposter syndrome and maybe you're feeling that way now, maybe you have imposter syndrome now because it's your writing that you're thinking about. Maybe it's something at work, whatever that might be, but what's the way.
That you get out of that. How do you, how do you tame that? How do you turn [00:19:00] that around?
Christina: Well, I don't think you turned it around and I don't think you get out of it. I think you move through it.
Matt: Hmm. We're just like,
Christina: example of my client and Stephen King, say to yourself, okay, whoever it is that you're comparing yourself to, do they have, more experienced than you. And if they do like a hundred books versus four, uh, yeah, let yourself catch up, find somebody who's on book four and then compare yourself to them. And I think you'll find a much or not compare yourself at all. No, I think sometimes it is okay to say, this person is at my level because I guarantee you more than 50 percent of the time you are doing better than them. [00:20:00] More than 50 percent of the time you are doing better than them. because I do think anyone who is feeling imposter syndrome is actually somebody who is trying to be better. And I think there's a group of people that just don't feel that and don't care. And in fact, I had one client say to me once, why are all these really bad writers publishing and how come I have trouble? And I said, because you care. And I think some people, there is a lot of faction and I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but I stand my ground on this. are a lot of writers who don't feel that they need an editor and they just throw things up there because, you know what, I want to get it out there. I want to make the quick buck and I want to go. And I work with people. Who are more like, this other client who really does care and is putting the time and the work and the [00:21:00] effort, you know, all of my clients, every single one, really work hard. at becoming a better writer. And so I think they do tend to be more the imposter syndrome. So acknowledge the fact that you want to be better, but do you have to be Stephen King right now? No. So it's more like hitting it head on, going through it, acknowledging that you want to be like Stephen King, you're not there yet. So what can
Matt: well, also
Christina: there?
Matt: it's like that quote, don't be a second rate. Stephen King be a first rate. You
Christina: Yes,
Matt: Like focus on being the best you can possibly be with your voice and your perspective and your stories and your characters and your edge and just bring all of you to it. Don't worry so much about what everybody else is doing.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: It reminds me. So there's a quote by Steve Jobs that [00:22:00] it's the quote is life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact. Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that are no smarter than you and you can change it.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: And I think the sooner that you really take that to heart and understand that that's so true, literally everything has been designed by other people and they really, really aren't smarter than you
Christina: No.
Matt: and you can do really everything they've done and more.
So
Christina: It's
Matt: embrace it.
Christina: it's the courage to actually try
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: courage to actually try. know, maybe that's the ultimate thing with imposter syndrome is acknowledging it,
Matt: Mm hmm.
Christina: but still maintaining your courage to try to try to be better. Try not to compare yourself to someone who's been out there writing for, know, 50 years, 50 years, Stephen King. So maybe if he doesn't have a hundred [00:23:00] books. He's been writing for 50 years, you know, and I, I, I know that this client is not even 50 years old. So know, there you go. You are trying to compare yourself, to someone that you just, you can't, there's no comparison. So yeah,
it comes down to the courage to try, the courage to
Matt: It's like any other skill. You learn one new aspect or learn one new thing about it and put that into practice every single day and you'll be fine. It'll all work out and it'll all come out in the wash. So
Christina: Impostor syndrome comes down to thinking that you have to be somebody you're not, you only have to be you, and all you have to do is have the courage to try to reach that next level, because I really do think, this is obviously a theory, but I've got theories up my sleeve, like you wouldn't believe it's the theory that you are on the precipice [00:24:00] of that next level, and that's why you get what you want. That feeling of imposter because you're, you're ready. It's like the universe is saying to you, to my client, you're going to be like Stephen King. You are. You just have to get to, you know, your 50 years of writing your 50th, 100th, whatever book Stephen King is on. Just keep going. Just keep going.
Matt: maybe it's even, maybe it's even an exercise of visualize yourself at that point, that 50 years down the road and doing it for 50 years. What do you see? What do you, what have you noticed about yourself at that point?
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: are you doing different than today? What are you doing? What have you accomplished?
Like, just make a list, you know, write it all out, draw it out, however you want to do it, but think about yourself at that level and,
Christina: And have
Matt: you know,
Christina: to follow through.
Matt: make it so. [00:25:00] Absolutely. Awesome. Well, you know, imposter syndrome. I think we've, I
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: think we've put a final point on that one. It is normal. It's it's natural. It's something everybody deals with.
Christina: at one time or another. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: Don't beat yourself up too badly about it. If it's something that's, you know, if it's something you're dealing with right now, it's absolutely
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: something you're going through. And hopefully, hopefully we gave you a little bit of a tip or a tool.
Christina: a jumpstart on how to deal with it.
Matt: Exactly. Awesome. Well, that does it for this episode and, look forward to hearing from you again next week. Share some more wisdom and, uh, you know, maybe some more stories, too. Who knows?
Christina: Of course.
Matt: Awesome. All right, to my darling. Well, thank you. Thank you for listening. Adios.
Christina: Bye. Bye.
Matt: [00:26:00] Goodbye.