Special Guest: Rania Gollakner Talks "Heartstopper"
Matt Cassem: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to write out loud, the podcast where we talk about all kinds of things, storytelling and writing and everything you could possibly want to know about the art of being a storyteller.
And of course, we're talking heartstopper as well. I am of course, joined by the fabulous Christina!
and we have a very, very special guest. This is our very first guest on the Write Out Loud podcast. So I would like you all in your cars or in your shower or wherever you are listening to this podcast to just give a nice, big, warm welcome to Rania Gollakner. Rania, hi.
Rania Gollakner: Hello.
Matt Cassem: joining us.
Rania Gollakner: Thank you for having me.
Matt Cassem: why Rania is here? Why do we have a guest? What is she doing here? Don't be possessive. Nobody likes possessive. Okay. Rania is a self professed superfan of Heartstopper. So, we want to kind of have Rania just, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Rania Gollakner: In a nutshell, I am a veterinarian. I [00:01:00] work for the USDA. I have done some writing, but technical writing in the vet world. And I, yeah, I'm a fan of Heartstopper, hands down.
Matt Cassem: It's fantastic.
Christina Trevaskis: So what is it about Heartstopper that made you a super fan. Where, where did that come from?
Rania Gollakner: I think it is related to the authenticity. I mean, first of all, just, it's pure joy.
I
Matt Cassem: Yes it is.
Rania Gollakner: okay. But it is super authentic. And that is something that I find hard to find in fiction. And I think that that is the root. I mean, there are a lot of things I love about it and why it's my favorite, but I think that that is the root of it.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. So, did you find the, the show or the book [00:02:00] first?
Rania Gollakner: I found the show first and it was actually upon a recommendation by a friend of mine named Matt and I actually, and I resisted watching it because I was so used to bad Traumatic storylines in this genre. Okay. So, and I, I, I don't know if Matt remembers, I asked him, I said, anything bad happen in this.
Like, I was like, I don't know. And he's like, no, no, no. It's not bad. It's not bad. But he didn't tell me how good it was, maybe that good because he just, any context, he just, lemme discover it on my own. But even though he reassured me I've been burned time and time again
Christina Trevaskis: Yes.
Rania Gollakner: with again these traumatic Depressing, you know, there's never joy always if there's joy for a second and then
Matt Cassem: Like somebody has got to die somebody get run over. Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: [00:03:00] Exactly it. I think you can even say in different genres multiple genres, fiction whether it's TV novels, movies you don't find the happy stories and if they're happy stories, it's either a a rom com that is so cliche, I don't
Matt Cassem: Cliche is it.
Christina Trevaskis: what let's just use polite term cliche.
Or as you said, there's something in it that has to, like, I think early on in one of the first episodes. of this podcast, I said, one of the reasons why I wanted to do Heartstopper was because it surprised me. So is that what happened to you? It surprised you when you started watching it?
Rania Gollakner: Yeah, because, I mean, here my friend assured me there was nothing bad in there, and I didn't believe him. I mean, because, you know what I'm saying? Because I've never seen it not be bad. [00:04:00] I've never seen it not be depressing, so that's how surprised I was. That I didn't even... I still was hesitant.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. So what happened when you started watching it?
Rania Gollakner: I didn't stop. I stayed up till three o'clock in the morning. No joke . I watched the entire Beginning to end because I started it late because I watched a little tv before bed And I just kept going and I kept going and I kept going
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, so the proverbial, binge watch that you can't, yeah, that was exactly me and the same scenario. I think it was like 11, 12 at night and they 30 minute episodes and I thought, you know, Oh, why don't book me to sleep? You know, four hours later. I was not asleep.
Matt Cassem: That's what happened Andrew, like my partner, for those of you who don't know, we haven't talked about that in the, in the podcast before, but my partner Andrew was watching this show and I came home from work and I saw the show on and I just sort of. I don't know. I had an instant gut reaction of like, Oh God, what is this?
And he was like, Oh, you really should [00:05:00] watch the show. It's really, really good. Not for the same reason, but I also kind of had the no, I'm fine. It doesn't look like anything I'm interested in. And he forced me to sit down and watch it. And I'm so glad he did because it literally, same thing, I was hooked on it, right?
By the minute you start watching the show and you see those characters and you see that storyline, it really takes you on that journey and pulls you right into that world.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, I want to ask a question that, we did not pre prepare, but it is so burning in my head I actually get asked quite a bit lately why the LGBTQIA stories Are so front and center right now, and I think one of the reasons it is, is because the stories are no longer about the the angst and the coming out and the, you know, like, even with red, white and royal blue that was a hugely popular story.
romance [00:06:00] before, you know, Amazon did the movie with Alice's, you know Heartstopper to Solitaire to, you know, all of the above. I actually am finding more depth with LGBTQIA stories than, you know, I'm using air quotes, straight stories. Right now, do you guys find that to be true?
Rania Gollakner: I mean i'm finding I can't say I just think in general. I it's been really hard for me to find Really good, deep stories. I haven't read Red, White, and Royal Blue. I've heard of it.
Matt Cassem: That's another very good one. Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Rania Gollakner: Maybe I need some recommendations
Matt Cassem: A recommendation right there for you. That is a very good one.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. I just find it interesting right now that that is, you know, I mean, heartstopper, I have not come across one person unless they're homophobic. Let's just say that that hasn't like [00:07:00] loved it, you know, ultimately loved
Matt Cassem: Yeah. I do think that there is an uptick in. Quality storytelling for LGBT, characters. Because I think for the longest time that the focus on those characters was, and we've kind of touched on this a little bit in the past, we had the side character who was sort of just the funny friend.
Not a lot of depth, not a lot of, you know, you didn't really get a lot of their story and their background and that sort of thing, or you had the angsty coming out. I don't want to tell anyone. I'm living this lie. I'm living this hiding sort of life. Right? And that has, I think, very much come away in terms of how society looks at it.
That is not something society is really looking for anymore. Because they know it, they know that that story is out there, it's been told, and they're comfortable with that, they understand that that's a thing, so it becomes a little bit too much of a trope to go back to it, that's not to say that there isn't, because even in Red, White, and Royal Blue, there was pieces of that, like with the, [00:08:00] the royal character,
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Matt Cassem: That he couldn't come out, because he
Heartstopper is not without some tough moments, right? Like, so I'm not asking, look, that's something I had to kind of think about to myself. Like, am I looking for something perfect? No, because this, it real life, some really bad Real life things that potentially happen, you know, They touch on the bullying that he went through for example, right?
Like so it's not some fantasy fluff world that is Utopian and perfect. But they didn't, it wasn't about that.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. And that's exactly with the first season with Nick, you know, yes, he struggled with what he was feeling cause this was a new emotion for him, but he didn't dwell on it. It wasn't like, Oh, let's carry it into season two and maybe, going to come out. By the end of season one, he's, ready to live [00:09:00] his life out in the open.
Matt Cassem: Yeah.
much more natural,
Christina Trevaskis: None of the, yeah, I mean, you feel the emotion, but it's not dwelling on the angst. It's not dwelling on one emotion or the other with the exception of, I think she dwells on joy. I think she somehow, I'm sorry.
Rania Gollakner: I said, oh darn.
Christina Trevaskis: Oh darn. Yeah. Yeah.
Rania Gollakner: Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: I actually think that in her own way, she's written this story that somehow, and I think one of you touched on it earlier, she doesn't, like, it's not just surprising because we're used to storytellers going for the most complicated opposite Anxiety, problematic, and she keeps the issues and the [00:10:00] problems working through, like these are people that communicate.
These are people that, value and respect one another. And you've got to question whether or not these other stories that weren't working for you, what was different about those? And I think the one thing that you can say is that she focused on the good side of relationships and I'm not just saying romantic ones.
I'm talking about friendships and all that kind of stuff, cuz even Tao a really great friend to them all. But , he had his moments of, feeling like, Hey, this isn't a great friendship. But then Charlie, , immediately when he realizes that there's a problem, steps up and , they talk about it.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, 100%. So, Rania, what was your, maybe highlight of the season for season one. Like what was the, maybe your favorite part of the series in season one or the favorite, just, you know, just moment overall,
Rania Gollakner: [00:11:00] I don't, gosh, I don't know if I can have just a favorite. I could have a favorite of each episode maybe. But, I don't know. I mean, because truly, it progressed in the most real way Like there wasn't even because life is a bunch of like great moments and maybe some not so great, you know But there's actually a lot of little beautiful moments all throughout life And you don't always have to have like that trip to Disney World or whatever.
Sometimes it really is just you stepped outside and, you know, saw this pretty flower. And I feel like the show is like that. So there's just so many little beautiful moments. I can't pick one.
Matt Cassem: Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It is really great. And we do enjoy, you know, just the way that she brings those characters to life. And we were talking before we started recording the podcast and you were sharing with us that, really served up something for you that you have just felt [00:12:00] like was missing from story and is missing from these types of works for, for a while.
Right. It just really resonated with you. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Rania Gollakner: Yeah, I really sat down and thought about how did the writer make this relationship so deep and so authentic and so real. I really wanted to understand and and so I, you know, I have some ideas, but I would love to kind of delve into some of the more, but some of the things that came to my mind, just as I was thinking about it.
So thing one was the pace. It was so natural. And in so many stories, it's not natural. It's almost like out of order.
Matt Cassem: More like rushed or too drawn out. There's never like a It seems like, right.
Rania Gollakner: Yeah, we're jumping [00:13:00] to deep deepness before we've actually put in the time to make a deep relationship.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. So what you're talking more about is like the gosh like the Insta love, like, , they meet and it's like, Oh, hi, I'd like to kiss you and let's go out on a date. And this was, , a little bit more paced out where. , Nick is like, Oh, what is this emotion that I'm feeling?
And each kind of leads to the next step. , here's the next step and here's the next step. It was like, he got to figure out and feel what he was feeling in that moment. And then it naturally progressed to the next moment.
So in other words, like he's sitting there, on the drum set, with Charlie, Charlie's holding his hands, you know, doing the drums and he kind of looks at him like, okay, there's this feeling here that I have that, I kind of miss his hands on mine, ? And then later on in that same episode is[00:14:00] the famous couch scene where Charlie is asleep and Nick wants to hold his hand, you know, because he had just held his hand. Yeah. I think that's beautiful with the idea that the pacing is so well done and it's actually not something that Matt and I have talked about as far as the writing goes.
And , I think Alice really did hit the nail on the head because you got to feel everything before you moved on to the next thing. And it wasn't like rushing it through where you're feeling like, Oh, I barely got to be happy there for a second and now I'm back in angst.
Rania Gollakner: Every moment feels earned.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Ooh, I love that.
I
Rania Gollakner: So every step that's what made it real is like you got to this and that felt real then the next step You're on that step. It's solid. It feels real and so forth
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, it would be, would be interesting to [00:15:00] find out now with the, the comics, do you feel that the pacing was the same, or do you think the pacing was better with the, the show?
Rania Gollakner: So I wish in a vacuum I could zap my memory and then read the comic and then give you my impression because everything as I read the comic was you know, I was referring to the show, you know So it's hard for me to say I don't feel like it was not good. I think, I think it was still good, but I honestly cannot answer it fully with confidence because I was then influenced first by the TV
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, I get it. I it totally.
Yeah.
Because she wrote both the comic and the scripts I've got to I've got to really give her the credit that she had the pacing and both accurate. I think the difference is, is that, she really kind of added more to the show. Expanded a little bit more [00:16:00] of what was going on, the feelings, the, you know, little more in depth.
But yeah, like I said, great with the pacing. So what else you got for us?
Rania Gollakner: I've got some good stuff . I've really been thinking about this. Okay, next is the fact that they became friends first. So this goes a little bit in with the pacing, but I, this is my personal belief. I think the deepest relationships kind of, you know, I think we've mentioned this at some point before, the deepest, strongest relationships are based in truly like a true friendship connection.
And I don't know how many people can say that they have these kinds of friendships, even, not just , romantic relationships, but even friendships. But they managed to make me believe they were friends first, even before we got [00:17:00] to anything romantic. I know Charlie had a crush, but they still were friends first.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. And, in fact I just want to interject too, because even though Charlie had the crush, he would have been simply happy being his friend. You know, and I, I actually do believe him when he was telling Tao and Isaac, it's not a crush. It's not just a silly crush. You know,
Rania Gollakner: It's not.
Christina Trevaskis: It's he genuinely enjoyed being with Nick.
Rania Gollakner: true. And Nick same thing. Before he knew he had feelings in that way. He knew for sure he enjoyed Charlie's company, hands down.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. And I think what is key and I think I've said this multiple times on the podcast is that conversation that Nick has with his mother the first time she meets Charlie and says, you are more yourself with him
Matt Cassem: Yes.
Christina Trevaskis: Than anyone else. And I
Rania Gollakner: I have that as a note for good writing,
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, [00:18:00] and I think that also can be said for Charlie. Charlie is more himself. Now, Charlie's lucky, though, because he gets to be himself with Elle, Tao, and Isaac as well. But I think because of that... A little bit more depth that he grows for Nick he can be even more himself.
Rania Gollakner: And that informs the authenticity of their relationship.
Matt Cassem: 100 percent
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yeah. So again, it comes back to the writing. I know prior to the podcast when we were kind of doing the pre interview you know, you spoke about the actors. These are all good actors. But you can be a good actor in a crappy movie and it still be a movie poorly written. But because these are good actors with really great writing, you know, that's, that's a good formula.
Matt Cassem: Yep, 100%.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Rania Gollakner: And part [00:19:00] of the writing that I think made their relationship for me to believe that they were friends and that it was such a deep relationship is the quality of the conversations and the topics that they talked about because they, they got into their likes and dislikes and they understood things about each other that frankly no one else understood about them. Through the writing, you understand how deep and strong their relationship starts out even just as friends.
Matt Cassem: We've talked about it before with the Isaac character. You have those moments of this, you know, Isaac is a, is a person who keeps to himself, right? He is very much a part of their friend circle and he is very well ingrained in that friendship. Yet when they go out someplace, there he is reading his book, right?
But they accept that about him. Like they know that about him and they love that about him. They are taking him for who he is and not who they want him to be. Cause [00:20:00] I'm sure they would, know, if you backed him into a corner and you're like, Do you like it that he reads books while you guys are hanging out together?
You know, they'd be like, well, no, but it's, it's him. That's what he does. It's fine. We love him. You know, it was just that, that really, and it was all unspoken. Nobody ever talked about it. It wasn't brought up. It wasn't a topic of conversation. It just was. So the depth of that relationship that they have is shown, not told throughout the story.
Rania Gollakner: Mmhmm.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, and I, I think that's the other key thing that most viewers, readers if you're not on the writing side, don't realize how much, show versus tell really does create for the audience that's, again, you know, watching or reading because the the thing about show versus tell is that the show is so much more subtle and it's throughout rather than just being told, , Charlie likes Nick, Nick [00:21:00] likes Charlie. You watching it unfold and and seeing it happen adds to that authenticity that you, had talked
Matt Cassem: It goes to the actions speak louder than words,
Christina Trevaskis: Oh yeah.
Rania Gollakner: With the showing thing, I think that Ben and Imogen help show, again, how good Nick and Charlie are by being the contrast.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yep. That's that the villains that we were talking about last week's podcast is just, , the idea that you do when you have someone who is the opposite, like literally if you put Nick there and, you know, looking at Ben, complete opposites in their relationship with Charlie.
Rania Gollakner: Right. And Imogen, I mean, she's not a, I mean, I wouldn't call her a villain, but she still shows this [00:22:00] contrast in sort of the difference between this superficial, like, flirting, when she goes, I like you, you know, like, but why? Why do you, I mean, cause he's cute, know, there really wasn't any there there, and, you know, tussles his hair, and, okay, like, there's nothing, and, but then, I mean, just hovering hands, it's like electric, with, between...him and Charlie.
Matt Cassem: So I have a question for Rania
Rania Gollakner: just
Matt Cassem: and this, I'm gonna put you on the spot with this one. If you could ask Alice Oseman a question about Heartstopper, what would you want to know?
Rania Gollakner: Oh man. This is okay. Have you ever met like either a celebrity that you've been, you know, that you loved and whatnot, and you, before you go meet them, you think to yourself, I'm going to tell them how awesome they are. I'm going to tell [00:23:00] them all of this stuff. And then you get there, and you're like, and maybe, you're lucky if say hi, even though she's not in front of me, I just now felt like that, like, I, oh my gosh, I mean, if, I don't know because I, I just would, I don't even know if I, I don't even want, I don't even know if I want to ask for anything, or if I just want her to truly feel and understand how awesome she is. I don't, you know what I mean?
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, yeah.
Rania Gollakner: And I don't know how to make her feel that. Maybe she already does. I hope she does.
Matt Cassem: That's fair.
Rania Gollakner: But, there's like nothing I want from her more than, I mean, okay. I would never ask for this, but I want her to write this stuff forever.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Rania Gollakner: But, I would never ask her that because that's not fair. But in my fantasy world... I would have this forever.
Christina Trevaskis: Yep. Nick and Charlie forever.
Matt Cassem: All of them!
Rania Gollakner: Or even, I'd trust her to write anything. Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, yeah.
Rania Gollakner: New pictures. Go for it, girl.[00:24:00]
Christina Trevaskis: it's the proverbial I don't know. And how many author circles, writer circles when they talk about another, you know, author that they love, they, it's always this same quote. I would write, I would read anything that they wrote, including the cereal box, the back cereal box and, and that's just it.
Like, you know, put Nick and Charlie on the back of a cereal box and I'll still read it.
Matt Cassem: And that could happen a, a graphic novel, so that might just work out. You never know.
Rania Gollakner: If she's writing it.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yeah. She's, she is writing volume five of the comic. And that is to be the last. So it's going to end there, but I have this feeling that every once in a while we're going to get these updates and maybe like little novellas here and there, but I'd also love for the rest of the hearttop Heartstopper community that loves Heartstopper so much to start reading some of her other stuff.
[00:25:00] Solitaire, of course, is where , Nick and Charlie originated. And that's great, but actually I Was Born for This. Oh, so good. And Radio Silence, man, radio silence. Oh my God, that you want to talk about getting straight to the heart of you and deep relationships and you know, all of that, I, I can understand why she swapped out.
Alad , for Isaac, because there's too much with Alad's story. You know, he's in the books, he is a part of the Heartstopper gang. But in his own book Radio Silence, there is so much more depth than, could be conveyed in. In the Heartstopper series. But yeah, I will say this.
I was fortunate enough to, to meet one of my favorite writers. And you would think I would come up with something brilliant to say to them and how much I,
Matt Cassem: Nope.
Christina Trevaskis: No, [00:26:00] I went straight
Rania Gollakner: because I'm plugged into real life. I know you didn't say a word.
Christina Trevaskis: No, I went straight for the characters and was like, Oh my God, True Heart wasn't even in the last book and what are you doing to Peabody and McNabb?
You know, I mean, seriously, that's what I did. And, and all she, she would, she patted me on the shoulder. Shoulder. And she said, don't worry, Nora will take care of you. Yes. So I think it's so important to just, you know, what, be yourself, be yourself when you meet these people and , sitting behind a computer screen , or an Alice's case, you know, drawing and writing the comics and then the screenplay.
She's, she's got to know how much she's impacting people and she can't do that unless she hears from readers. And, and watchers and fans and, and things like that. Cause I think you'd be surprised at how many people we talk to each other about it, but Alice is removed from that. [00:27:00] So yeah. So everybody out there, if you've got an author that you absolutely love, just type that little email or, you know send that little tweet.
Matt Cassem: Let them know how much you love them. They appreciate for sure.
Christina Trevaskis: Let 'em know
Matt Cassem: So
Christina Trevaskis: sure.
Matt Cassem: as we kind of wrap this session up what is like, kind of give us your, your final thoughts on Heartstopper on the storytelling in general. Tell us, you know, kind of what you, what you want to end on.
I, it's
Rania Gollakner: just Again, the most beautifully told story, and I hope that, and I, I mean, I trust everything, so I'm saying I hope there's, like, as she continues to either make the show or finish out the comics, you know, I hope it keeps being like this, but I don't have to hope, I already know because I trust her implicitly, she's done it, [00:28:00] I mean, She, there's no, like you said, there's no messing it up because she's writing authentically from her heart, so it is going to be good.
So I guess, yeah, I guess it's just maybe a message about, like what you said earlier, staying true to yourself, and I know that's very said a lot, it's very overdone, but at the same token, we are not good at practicing it. Thank
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. And I think that's actually the reason why Heartstopper is so good and why I talked Matt into starting this podcast is because you don't come across something so authentic that just, you know, asks you to be yourself, because these characters are themselves, and, you know, Alice is herself, and, you know, so, yeah, I, I understand completely what you're saying.
Matt Cassem: And writers out there who are listening, this is our [00:29:00] ask of you is to write just as authentically is tell those stories that bring that same level of depth that put in the work to show just exactly how we get to the point that we can have that depth, right? We put in the work, we've, we've earned that relationship, we've earned that depth and you've got to put that in there.
You've got to put that work out there and get everybody else involved because we are waiting for you. We are absolutely waiting for you. Well, very good. Well, Rania, thank you so much for joining us. We are very, very happy that we could have you as our very first guest. So again, everybody, you might be in
the
you, is awesome.
give her a little bit of a round of applause.
All right. She'll hear you. Trust me. She will hear you. Well, thank you so much, Christina, as always, my darling. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Christina Trevaskis: Thank you!
Matt Cassem: And until next time, everybody take care.