Relationships - S01 E11
Matt Cassem: [00:00:00] All right. So, here we go. How can Matt mess it up today?
Christina Trevaskis: I love that little giggle. It's like, what evil thing is going to
happen?
Matt Cassem: Oh, just wait.
Christina Trevaskis: Should have had little devil horns instead of the cat horns.
Matt Cassem: Oh, well, I have those too. All right. Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud. Podcast where we explore storytelling, both in writing and in visual mediums like TV and movies, but we're talking today.
Well, first of all, let's back this train up, shall we? Beep, beep, beep. Let's back this train up. And let's just say, welcome everybody to write out loud the podcast where we talk about storytelling. And I, of course, I'm Matt Cassem. And this is the lovely, beautiful, amazing, wonderful, talented.
Christina Trevaskis: Christina!
Matt Cassem: Christina.
And yes, as I said, we're going to be talking about just [00:01:00] relationships, but this is not a relationship advice podcast. So please don't write or message us or anything like that. Cause we're just going to ignore those, but we are going to talk about relationships in the sense of healthy relationships versus unhealthy relationships, and how are those depicted within storytelling across all of our favorite mediums? So what say you to that, my dear,
Christina Trevaskis: What say I to that? You know, it's interesting because regardless of the genre specifically the genre of books of novels specifically that within the romance genre it's interesting because you can find some really great books with healthy relationships and you can find some not so great relationships that they end up together and it's happily ever after and all of that.
I really wanted to delve into this specifically with Heartstopper [00:02:00] because I think Alice takes a very different direction and even though she or many other people might object, it is a romance. Between Nick and Charlie and Tara and Darcy and Tao and Elle and whoever else is going to come along.
And even, I'm excited for season two to see what she's going to do with some asexual representation. But yeah, specifically Nick and Charlie, she made choices in the writing that really created a very healthy relationship, and it's juxtaposed against Ben initially, which is a very toxic relationship.
I will say that so yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. So yeah, I really want to [00:03:00] explore where the healthy relationship goes. And I think We can also use other LGBTQ stories as examples of where healthy relationships is not the norm.
Matt Cassem: Mm hmm.
Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of interesting situations. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this about... Again, the kind of the juxtaposition around how Ben behaves in the beginning and he's building on that. And you have Nick and Charlie and how they are completely opposite to that, right?
It's a, it's much more of a very just natural, loving, nurturing relationship. There's still a little bit of that hesitancy within that developing relationship. And then you've got Tara and Darcy who just sort of almost eased right into it, right? They just sort of like, okay, here we are. This is what we're doing now.
Cool.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yeah. With them specifically even Tara actually says[00:04:00] we're not going to do a big coming out or anything like that. We're just not going to hide. So for them, that's that's what's important to the relationship is just that we don't have to keep this a secret anymore.
We don't have to hide. We don't have to, you know, again that's a very healthy thing. They, they made the decision amongst the two of them that, you know, what? I don't want to have a big coming out, but let's, let's not keep this a secret anymore. Let's not pretend like we're just besties.
Matt Cassem: Right. You know what's interesting too, I just thought about this.
It almost, from a writing standpoint, I feel like Alice Oseman sort of had these different gradients. So we talked about color.
Christina Trevaskis: Right. Yeah.
Matt Cassem: And, and representation within that and the different details last time. And when you think about that same kind of thing, right, going from one gradient to another, like you sort of have this Ben and Charlie, which is this maybe reddish [00:05:00] color, right?
Yeah. It's kind of like a red flag.
Christina Trevaskis: I see where you're going with this.
Matt Cassem: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And then you have. You have Nick and Charlie and that's maybe, you know, they're kind of easing into it. Yeah, they're still a little bit like, I don't want to get caught or I don't want people to know right yet. I'm not super comfortable with this just yet.
And then you have Tara and Darcy and it's sort of like anywhere between a flashing yellow to a green if we're going with a stoplight analogy and we're just going with it, right? Yeah. They, they just literally kind of Here it is. It is what it is. There's not a lot of friction. There's not a lot of hemming and hawing about it.
It just kind of became what it was.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Yeah. It was more about the reaction after for their, their relationship. It was, you know, how do they deal with people knowing now? And I wouldn't quite Say that they were teased, but it certainly wasn't kept from them. The gossip that people were talking about and [00:06:00] hearing some of the I think it was like members of the band at first that were trying to make it a bigger deal, but yeah, with Ben and Charlie specifically you can actually tick off so many tropes, so many boxes of, the the not wanting to come out, like wanting to hide, wanting to keep it a secret, wanting to keep it to themselves. The idea that now we don't know whether Ben is gay or bi but the idea that he had a girlfriend, is it a front for that?
I mean, these are all sorts of tropes that are used time and time again within LGBTQ, again, specifically relationship books. But then on the other hand, with Nick, it's almost as if, okay, she had. The Ben and Charlie, you know, checking off all these boxes [00:07:00] of the tropes and the toxic relationship and she was actually going to show the exact opposite of all of those things. At first, Charlie says something about we're going to keep it a secret, but Nick is actually the one who It doesn't really isn't hiding, isn't keeping it a secret.
He's just more or less figuring himself out. And in fact the most impactful scene to me with healthy relationships was actually after the first kiss, the day after the first kiss, where instead of texting, instead of calling. Nick came over. Yeah. And not only did he come over, he ran in the rain, in the rain.
And then with that, Charlie treats it so precious. Nick saying is he's sorry. And Charlie is like, you know what? You have nothing to be sorry about. You know, you've got to take this [00:08:00] at your own own pace. Charlie never pushes him. Never wants anything more than what Nick is willing to give.
And it's, almost always Nick moving the relationship forward and it's not that Charlie doesn't want the relationship to move forward. He probably wants it to move forward much more quickly. But he is so good. At allowing Nick to make his own decisions about things because essentially Charlie was not given any choice in coming out that was, that was revealed.
So, the other thing that I really want to talk about with these two contrasting relationships is internal conflict versus external conflict. Most writers go into it thinking everything has to be internal conflict. Oh, I am a character and I need to come out [00:09:00] and I need to do this and, and my problem with the relationship is this rather than an external conflict, which is essentially what Nick and Charlie everything that they deal with is.
Mostly once Nick figures out that he's testing the bywaters is external. So something that comes from without the relationship that the pair deal with together and that again sparks that healthy relationship, whereas with Ben and Ben and Charlie, it's all internal conflict and it is all toxic.
So and it's really interesting because again in the romance genre. I would say, gosh, anywhere from 60 to 80 [00:10:00] percent all conflict is internal. Very rarely do you have the conflict being external, which in discussing with a lot of my romance writers, my clients I tell them sometimes the most rewarding books to read are the ones where, yeah, they may have some internal conflict in the beginning, but at some point they become a couple.
And they have to face the world together. And how do they deal with problems outside of their relationship? That also becomes important to the story.
Matt Cassem: Yeah.
What I like the distinction too between internal and external is, is kind of a duality. There's the internal. Inside of me as the character struggling with my own thoughts and feelings and desires and those things that conflict with one another and then the external those people that want from me or are asking of me or pushing [00:11:00] against me or whatever.
And then you have the extra focus on the overall relationship, internal and external, like you said that the internal between the two versus the external of everybody else and what are they thinking? What are they going to say? And what are they going to do? And how are they treating us? And, and.
The struggles that they kind of go through as a couple.
Christina Trevaskis: I think the best relationship stories have a little bit of all of it. There is a balance of all of it. Because if you're reading a story and you can't first of all figure out why these two characters are together, Ben and Charlie, anyway yeah.
If you can't figure out why they're together you're not going to believe When something, comes into the relationship that isn't part of them are they a team? Are they working towards a common goal?
Matt Cassem: Yep, absolutely. I think it's interesting to, to think like there's certain stories and I can't think [00:12:00] of specific titles at this point, but I can think of times where I've been watching a show or reading a book and the main character and most of the conflict is all internal. Like, it's literally them. Yeah, it was me. Yeah, this is terrible. I don't know what to do with this. Like, they're just got they come across as like, like, just make a decision and do something like, you just keep wallowing in this whole self pity kind of thing and it just, it just, it's not inspiring.
It doesn't make you want to root for them because you're just like, okay, I get it. We all go through stuff, but at some point you've got to stand up and do something.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes. Oh, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. It is much more interesting if again, using Heartstopper as the example, Nick doesn't woe is me, woe is me through the entire series.
Matt Cassem: Mmhmm.
Christina Trevaskis: He woe is me maybe a portion of an episode. Yeah. And quickly [00:13:00] move through it. Like if this is who I am, this is who I'm going to be.
Matt Cassem: Yep.
Angst around mom, and will mom accept me getting through that conversation? And it was great. And it's like, okay.
Christina Trevaskis: And again, he, it's not that he's okay. I'm by and let me come out to the whole world.
He's definitely doing it in a manner that. Is very in keeping with his own, let me sit in this, let me figure out who I am before I tell my mom that I suspect anything cause I can think back to stories or even maybe these were real life people that immediately like, Oh, I, Hey, I see a another man, perhaps I'm gay instead of thinking, okay, what is this attraction?
What is, you know, am I still attracted to like Nick goes through the [00:14:00] gamut. He doesn't just go, Oh, I'm gay. And like, let's let me go on that road. He was really purposeful in figuring out. Who he is. And, and the thing is this is the one place where it differed from comic to screen where Charlie was the first one to suggest that he might be bi and in the show it was in reverse.
And I wondered if Alice felt like she wanted to change it a little bit because she wanted everything to really come from Nick.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, I think so. But yeah, I do think so.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, I really feel that that's what she did, too. But that makes for a much more interesting, well developed character.
Matt Cassem: Mm hmm.
Nick,
Nick was always very much, he had a quiet confidence and could figure out, like you said, he would let it, something would happen, he would sit in it, he would think about it, and then respond in whatever way that was, right? But it was always a very quiet, confident [00:15:00] piece. Like, he had jitters.
That's not to say he was never, like, nervous or out of sorts.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Matt Cassem: He was just very good about, he knew who he was deep down. Right. And knew what he was about, and knew his values, and knew what he was as a person. So he spent a lot of time really just being introspective, but not overly so.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
And I think what's interesting too for me, and I don't know. Because I haven't experienced it, so this definitely from your own experience he didn't immediately feel like he changed, like, oh, I'm bi now do I need to do, something's gay specific. I don't even know.
Matt Cassem: Give me the flag. Let me run.
Christina Trevaskis: You know, I don't even, that's not even where I'm going with it. It's, it's like, he didn't feel the need to change from rugby to theater. Right. He didn't feel the need to change [00:16:00] anything about, like, it was just, oh, this is another aspect of myself that I'm just discovering it wasn't like nothing.
I mean it. Okay. So maybe it did rock his world a little bit, but it really didn't shake him. Like you said, he had that quiet confidence.
Matt Cassem: It's like he found an extra appendage and went, oh, that's interesting. What's that? Yeah. And then like after he kind of figured out for a second, he was like, oh, okay, well, here we go.
Yeah, just do it.
Christina Trevaskis: Whereas other stories, even just bringing in a couple more shows, movies Brokeback Mountain it was all I don't even know towards the end of that, whether I even would have wanted them together toxic for one another.
Matt Cassem: It was definitely toxic.,
yeah, good story,
but definitely toxic.
And
Christina Trevaskis: I mean I can give it the respect it deserves for the time there's [00:17:00] here's the thing, something we haven't talked about before. But when you are trying to introduce new ideas, new. Ways of thinking, feeling, being you and I grew up in the eighties where this was not something that was readily acceptable.
And so back in the eighties, you had to have something that fit the time, but I look at it more as giving it the respect it deserves by saying it was the thing that opened the door. It opened the door for other things to happen. Like Alice's stuff. Couldn't exist if there weren't all of these other LGBTQ style books, movies, TV.
So it's like someone has to push the envelope further and further and further and further. So someone like Alice can sit there and go, I'm going to have a whole cast of characters that [00:18:00] are all p ieces and aspects of the rainbow, even parts of the rainbow that we haven't talked about yet.
So again, it's, it's about inclusion and progression and so it's not that Brokeback Mountain didn't have its place. It did. It moved us further. It, it moved that envelope a little bit further and further allowing for other people to write healthy relationships. Both people don't feel the need to hide and I think that's maybe that's why it was important to have been in there for that contrast that toxicity versus healthy.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, I think
it's interesting. You and I talked a little bit over the weekend about I shared a clip from Schitt's Creek. Star Dan Levy and he kind of shared his perspective around a few things and they talked about having like Emily Hampshire mentioned just having a show that [00:19:00] homophobia didn't exist.
It just wasn't a thing not so much people coming to terms with it literally just didn't exist. It wasn't nobody, nobody batted an eye. And I, I do wonder,
I do wonder if you needed Ben in this at all. Like I think. We talked about the compare and contrast, and I think it does a really nice job of that. But I do wonder if that story could have still developed if that had been the same kind of focus of homophobia just doesn't exist, right? Like you have these two people kind of finding each other.
He assumes he's straight just because he plays rugby, like whatever. Like, there's just not a, there's not a questioning in the sense of like, oh gosh, I can't like him because he's, he's straight, but more so. I, I think he's straight. Yeah, he's really, he's really cute. He's hot, but
yeah, he's straight.
So I think it's,
Christina Trevaskis: yeah, I think it's an interesting idea. I think though you're putting yourself into what's the conflict?
Because, if you're going external [00:20:00] conflict because the internal conflict of the relationship, you move through quickly then there has to be external conflict. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I mean, if you removed Ben, you just think of what, what is going to be the conflict now for season two.
We know, which we won't say 'cause no spoilers. There could be other things, right? , there could be other things that are an external conflict within the relationship. So, yeah. So I, I, I think that Heartstopper could exist without Ben in that world, as you say, of Schitt's Creek.
Matt Cassem: But is it less interesting,
Christina Trevaskis: but, well, I don't think it's less interesting.
I think it's the job of the writer. To make it just as interesting if that is your choice if we're talking writing here that is probably my biggest pet peeve with writers is that they [00:21:00] don't figure it out. They don't if they write themselves into a corner, so let's say you were going to remove Ben.
So how are you going to write that? Essentially you are writing yourself into a difficult situation because you've got to keep. The story moving and what kind of conflicts are you going to have, are you going to bring in more internal conflicts within the relationship itself?
And then are you going to lose that healthy relationship? But I have said time and time again, and I challenge every single one of my authors to find that door number three. If you've written yourself into a corner, you've got to write yourself out. Yeah.
So, if you're writing, yeah, if you're writing yourself into a corner, and you've taken out Ben, then it's up to you to figure out then what is the interesting aspect of this story? What is the [00:22:00] conflict?
Matt Cassem: The Hunger Games.
Christina Trevaskis: Because you can't. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. What?
Matt Cassem: I said, that's, that's the new conflict.
This is a twist. This is the Door C, Charlie and Nick have to survive The Hunger Games.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes. Oh gosh. I don't think they could. No. And we don't want them to. They're too precious. It's true. Too precious. No. Yeah. Essentially, you do have to figure out though, what makes the story interesting then. And like I said, I think I think it's interesting the way that Alice has chosen to have Tao know by the end of season one, whereas in the books, he doesn't know until Paris. So yeah, so some of those choices, it'll be interesting to see what she chooses to do for season two. What are the new conflicts that she's essentially took one of them right out. [00:23:00] Tao is no longer a conflict in Paris.
Matt Cassem: Exactly.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes.
Matt Cassem: Yeah. I mean, so we, as we're focusing on the, on the different relationship aspects, I mean, we've, we've talked at length about Heartstopper. And I think there's, there's some when you think about as a writer, when you think about all of the different types of relationships that have been portrayed.
Right. So we know that we've got. Ben and Charlie, we've got Nick and Charlie, we've got Tara and Darcy Elle and Tao, right? But even outside of Heartstopper very similar types of relationships that you can look towards that you can say, hey, this is how do I write this type of. internal external conflict.
And one of your favorite shows, one of my absolute least favorite shows in the world, Shameless,
Christina Trevaskis: Shameless.
Matt Cassem: Yes. We're going to go there because it is interesting.
Christina Trevaskis: For me, It [00:24:00] isn't the beginning of the relationship and how that started and all the angst and all the when I actually think the writers really didn't know what to do with Mickey and Ian, and it wasn't until later seasons that you haven't watched.
So I think you don't have the full story. When they got really interesting. To me and it was actually the last couple of seasons with them and the, them getting married and them working together, that it actually did bring a lot of the best dynamics. So, but you having said and brought up Shameless, if you actually look at it talk about healthy relationships, it was unhealthy in the beginning because it was all internal conflict now for shameless again, qualifying for shameless
Matt Cassem: For Shameless.. Yep.
Christina Trevaskis: Their relationship was [00:25:00] healthy er in the end. And that's because a lot of the conflict was. External.
Matt Cassem: Mm hmm.
Christina Trevaskis: So, there.
Matt Cassem: And they grew. And they grew.
Yes, they grew. Right? There's development there.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, I actually do think that that makes for very interesting and engaging characters.
Mm hmm. I'm not the type that likes characters who, like, appear on the page, and they're all smart, and they're all knowing, and they're all this, and they're all that. I love a good.
I love when you can see a character's growth. I love when you're introduced to a character. And by the end of that book series, that TV series they've grown leaps and bounds. And again, you not having seen all of Shameless, there is a scene where Mickey has to [00:26:00] help his dad and Ian says to him as they're walking away that was very big of you.
And Mickey says, I don't want to be him. And I think that to me was like the chef's kiss of writing where a character has a full circle moment. Yeah. I want to be better than that. I want to be better than him.
Matt Cassem: It's absolutely blossomed. Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes. Yeah. And, you know, are they the best people in the world?
No. But I think they have tremendous growth and they're, for me and my viewing really fun characters to just.
Matt Cassem: Yep, agreed agreed. Yes So as we've talked a lot about the dynamics between different, couples whether it was healthy relationships unhealthy Relationships and the internal and external conflicts for all of them.
What is your [00:27:00] challenge to our listeners and writers this week?
Christina Trevaskis: I think the challenge is, A) don't ever write yourself into a corner that you can't get out of and you can't say that you can't get out of it. You've got to figure out a way to get out of it, but yes, but other than that I think it's all about balance.
I think you need some internal and some external. I do think you need, healthy relationships at some point even if we were taking Ben and there were no Nick at some point. Ben would have to start to become a healthy relationship for Charlie or it's no longer a relationship story.
Matt Cassem: Sure.
Christina Trevaskis: And that's fine too. Yeah. You know, maybe that's the growth of, of that particular story is that Charlie realizes he doesn't need a partner in life or at least not yet, not until he [00:28:00] meets the right one. Right. Right. So yeah. So I think you need a really healthy balance of all of.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, I think the other challenge I would throw out there is don't be afraid to go against what you think should happen just because you think it's it's what the audience would expect. Like really, really push yourself to be like, you know what, if they're going to expect that there's going to be this moment where these two fight over this thing that causes them to break up.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Matt Cassem: What if they didn't?
Christina Trevaskis: Yes.
Matt Cassem: What if they didn't?
Christina Trevaskis: Well, that's, that's just it. I don't know how many times I've said it. I was fully expecting someone to interrupt that first kiss and when it didn't happen, I literally sat up and went, whoa, this is something different. This is something different and I am now going to have to binge the entire series.
Yeah. I think that's, that's key. What you just said there is do something unexpected. And make it work.[00:29:00]
Matt Cassem: If you think of yourself as the the reader of your own story, if you're getting to a point where you're like, well, the most obvious logical thing for them to do at this moment is X, then ask yourself, what's Y and Z.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, and maybe put them all together because sometimes
Matt Cassem: Pick one, pick two...go with A!
Christina Trevaskis: Sometimes the expected is also very rewarding.
Matt Cassem: Sure.
Christina Trevaskis: But then do something unexpected. It is all about the balance, all about the balance.
Matt Cassem: It's your world. We're just living in it. Yes. We do what you want.
We do what you want. So you make it so. Awesome! Well, I think that I think that puts a period. Yes. Very nice. Very nice.
Christina Trevaskis: An exclamation point.
Matt Cassem: Yes. Exclamation point with some little stars all around it.
Christina Trevaskis: Glitter.
Matt Cassem: We're going to embellish. We're going to embellish here. Here we go. Awesome. Well, that is beautiful.
Miss Christina, where? Can [00:30:00] they get more of you?
Christina Trevaskis: They can get more of me on Instagram, I hang out there. I do lots of story stuff. I may not have posts very often, but I do stories. If they want to reach out to me directly, just bookmatchmaker. com or just Christina at bookmatchmaker. com.
Matt Cassem: Beautiful. Beautiful.
Christina Trevaskis: And you?
Matt Cassem: For me. It is, you can find all of my things at Cassem, C A S S E M at O M G dot L O L, yes, that's
real.
Christina Trevaskis: I swear to God.
Matt Cassem: Cassem dot O M G dot L O L and you'll, you'll find all the things about me there, including that I'm working on this top secret podcast that you're listening to now, not so top secret anymore, is it?
Christina Trevaskis: No.
Matt Cassem: All right. Well, thank you, my darling. Have a wonderful night. And for all of you listening. Bye.
Bye.
Bye.