Interviewing Christina
Matt Cassem: [00:00:00] Welcome back . It is the Write Out Loud podcast. And I'm here with the amazing, ever inspiring, outstanding, superb, Christina.
Christina Trevaskis: Wow, what an introduction. I hope you don't expect the same from me.
No, the wonderful the Wildly entertaining, Matt.
Matt Cassem: Oh, I thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes. Well, we are here today to spend a little time kind of getting to know you and understanding a little bit about your journey and what you do on a daily basis to help writers become better and better every single day.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes.
Matt Cassem: So, that's what we're going to do. What do you think about that?
Christina Trevaskis: Sure. I, I, whatever. Yeah.
Matt Cassem: I'm down for it. Just let's go. Let's just get this show on the road.
Christina Trevaskis: The thing is, is that I don't even really think about what it is that I do until people start like,[00:01:00] I don't want to say reminding me, but like, have me start talking about how I got into this business, what I've been able to do.
And yeah, if I look at those moments, I go, yeah, that is pretty cool. I guess people are interested in that. I really just started out as a reader and a fan, you know, growing up and it just grew into working at the bookstore, then , moving up the ladder at the bookstore and ending up at the Borders home office.
Each move was not in any way calculated. It was all just a, Oh, that job is open. Oh, okay. The only calculated move I made was when they started closing Walden bookstores. And a lot of people at the home office that I knew were like, you got to get to a Borders, before they close, your store.
That's the only calculated move I made,to a Borders store in [00:02:00] Madison. And of course, loved working there. I would have been so happy working there, except no, I, no, no, no, no. Actually, I, I don't think that one closed for a, for a few years after, I left there. This job at the home office came open and it was perfect for me, which was a marketing specialist doing all of the marketing for all of the stores for the genre fictions, the fun fictions, like I like to call them.
I had absolutely zero qualifications, except for I sold the hell out of books. And specifically the genre fiction ones. And I had created a, God, I can't believe I'm telling this story. I don't even know if you know about this. But when I was at my local teeny tiny Waldenbooks, I had this idea that if you could connect all of the like genre readers, so [00:03:00] my heavily read category was romance, and I actually started talking to some other romance readers that were also booksellers in my district. I got this idea to do this business plan. I, I combed through our store's sales from when I started there to what they, what I had built them up to. And just because I loved reading and when romance readers would come in the store, I'd share what I'm reading and then I'd figure out what they liked and I'd suggest stuff to them. And it really grew the section to where like per capita, our store was pretty small because we're a small market. We're not big city. but my sales were bigger than Minneapolis area sales. my sales were competitive with these huge, stores.
I did the whole thing, mathematics, graphs, you know, [00:04:00] everything. And I simply said, we should just connect the booksellers so that we can really share what's selling, what's what we've read that's unique. What we've, you know, and it actually, unbeknownst to me. A few weeks after I sent it to my district manager, I got a phone call from a woman in Texas.
Matt Cassem: Gosh.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah, it was very strange. She had this thick Texas accent that I'm so not going to try to do because it would come out horrible. but she basically said,You're Tina Trevaskis and I'm told I need to speak to speak with you. I'm like, okay, hi. and she said, your business proposal made it all the way to the home office.
And the romance buyer contacted me because she, she ended up being like the top romance seller, store. So her store is. The, top one in the company at that time. and so she and I [00:05:00] started talking and then all of a sudden we're getting memos from the home office, saying that there's a romance expert program, and that each store had if they had somebody who read romance, that's what that person was going to be talking to the romance buyer, giving feedback. we would actually get our names were with all of the major publishers. So every month I would get every single title from at this time there were the big. Big 7.
but Random House Penguin, at the time it was called Warner, now it's called Hachette, Simon Schuster, I'm blanking on who else, but anyway, I I get all of those books early to read, give feedback to the romance buyer and to sell to know what's coming up and what's selling and stuff like that.
So because I had been instrumental in that kind of [00:06:00] stuff, when the job came open at the home office...
Because I had done all of that, the marketing director was just like, you know, yeah, I want you, I want I want this energy. I want that marketing to go out to the stores and stuff. So I stumbled into, I completely, everything that I do, I stumble into, I don't, none of this was ever planned.
So let that be a lesson to everyone out there. You don't even have to dream it for it to happen. You can just keep going forward and enjoying life. And just as long as you're creative and innovative people are going to notice you.
Matt Cassem: Sure.
Christina Trevaskis: So that's exactly what happened. and then when, when I was,gosh, before I went to the home office, I had actually worked for an author at that point.
cause I really thought that was the direction I was going to go. but I don't it wasn't anything to do with me. [00:07:00] Wasn't anything to do with the author, anything. I think we just both, both realized that we were not what each other needed, she really did need somebody to, comb through her email, not do her marketing.
So I had that experience and then once Borders closed, or I got laid off. Because I was the last in, I was the first out. and so I did, I did get laid off, in the first round of layoffs, for Borders, but immediately I got phone calls. I got phone calls from everywhere. and looking back, I probably should have kind of contemplated some of those other phone calls, but, an author called me and she was like, I want you to come down and be my business manager because she not just had best selling books, but she had products and she had big fandom and she had before it was even popular to have conference a con, with just single authors.
So. You know, I had so much experience [00:08:00] that when I finally went to strike out on my own, and this is after Borders closed, that it was just natural. I had authors asking me, will you edit my book? I'm like, okay, well, I do have a degree in English and I am good at grammar, so I think I can do that. But what I ended up being really, really good at was story.
with story development, story flow, just all of the things that people don't think about goes into writing. I was actually really, really good at developing that in writers. So yeah,
Matt Cassem: Nice, nice. When you think about the different people that you work with in your day to day, right? How do you approach understanding kind of the unique needs and goals that every writer has that you work with?
Christina Trevaskis: God, that's such a hard question. because I don't actually know the answer, in the sense where I do, I know [00:09:00] what the manuscript needs and so therefore it becomes what the writer needs. So, I can go from reading a first draft and going, Oh, this is great, but there's some stuff that needs to happen here.
There's some development that needs to happen here. one thing we'll talk about ad nauseum on our podcast, is a concept called show versus tell. and one of the first timers that I worked with, right away was everything was like tell. And it was she had this great idea, but she was like, everything was tell there was no show whatsoever.
and. It is such a hard concept to understand, until you get it. And once you get it, you're like, Ooh, this is great. so we worked on it quite a bit and giving [00:10:00] examples and, , we did the research together. I found some, actually shows. cause it was easier to do show movies, series, something that visual that you can see versus have you read this book?
You know, that's why I do use a lot of examples from, the screen because it's so well known. when she handed me back the first couple of pages rewritten as show. It was the creepiest stuff I have ever read. And it was so good. It was magical. It was magical. So it's really more or less finding maybe what their weaknesses are, developing those to become more strengths, taking their strengths and going, okay and it's interesting because, today I did an edit and [00:11:00] there was this moment of pure gold and it was like everything around it is fool's gold. We need to dig more for this gold. This is gold. This is this is pure talent, raw, wonderful. and I think that's the biggest misconception for writers is that they've got to be so perfect.
And even passing it over to your editor. Perfect. No, I have to reteach them. I, I want the messy. I want the raw. I want the emotion because that's where I can find where you connect with your audience and that's what you need to develop is that emotion that is connecting you to the audience.
And that's across the board. That's fiction, nonfiction, every type of writing. You're not going to get your idea, your concept, your story. read unless you engage. How do you engage? You connect, you emote, [00:12:00] you, you find the commonalities, whether that's characters or your story.
Matt Cassem: So, I mean, you talk about that as a strategy for. The way that you do your work, but what other strategies you employ that, you know, really help that writer figure out not only their craft, but really their unique voice.
Christina Trevaskis: I absolutely point out. So again, when I was talking about, and today's edit was that pure gold, I explained to them why it was pure gold. Why it was impactful. Why that was their strength rather than their weakness. And the interesting thing was, he really thought I was going to say the opposite.
Like the second half was so well written and so well done. No, that was the fool's gold. It was that first half that was so... The voice, the voice is his okay. So here's the difference with voice. Your voice is your voice because you've written it. and [00:13:00] when you reach those moments of pure gold, as he did, that's his voice.
The other stuff, the fool's gold, that's not his voice. That's not him. That's his perception of what he thinks the audience is looking for.
Matt Cassem: Sure.
Christina Trevaskis: So when.
Matt Cassem: Like trying to be perfect and trying to get it just right.
Christina Trevaskis: Yes. You, you're actually going, okay, this is what the audience's expectations are. And I must reach that when it's actually the opposite.
Where if you just go in there and be you and tell your story, use your voice, your unique way, your audience is going to find you. If you do not write you, your audience can't find you. It's going to be these people that are just like, eh. it's
Matt Cassem: And being you would have to be not always the perfect, not always the, the rules of grammar, the, the perfect spelling and all [00:14:00] of that.
Christina Trevaskis: And that's just it. back in the day when I was still at Borders, I used to speak at conferences and I had this, talk that I called storytelling versus writing. They are two separate things. Writing is very, grammar and you can have perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect written thing. But if there isn't anything for the audience to connect to, then there's no point and you can have something that is maybe not the.
Best written piece of work that you've ever seen, but if the story is compelling and draws you in. So, here's the thing, Stephanie Meyer, not your. Maybe top [00:15:00] written person that you're going to put it that compare them to Hemingway or Shakespeare, whatever. But the thing is, she is laughing you all to the bank.
Matt Cassem: Yep.
Christina Trevaskis: Because she is a fantastic storyteller. She is one of the best storytellers out there. And I will tell you, not one person. Has ever done the blank page with just the month on it. And keep going. I mean, at the end of those pages, I was like, Oh, my God. But I felt it. Yeah, I felt the change of those months that you know, Bella was numb.
and there's nothing better than that. There's nothing better than breaking the rules.
Matt Cassem: Mm hmm.
Christina Trevaskis: Putting one word on a page because the reader is going to feel that, I mean, it's palpable.
Matt Cassem: They'll understand it. Absolutely.
Christina Trevaskis: And the thing [00:16:00] is, that kind of storytelling is so much harder to teach because it is creatively each individual that says. I'm going to break those rules and I'm going to do it this way. Another writer, Kristen Ashley, let me tell you if I were actually going to teach a class on how to be successful, breaking every single writing rule there is, I mean, she has written books that are half in first person, half in third person and not the same half you're going back and forth, but she makes it work because the female protagonist is written in first person, and the male protagonist is written in third person. And... She somehow makes it work. She's also a damn good storyteller. Yeah. Damn good. I mean, she [00:17:00] just
Matt Cassem: knows how to do it.
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah. Yeah, she does. and the thing is, is that New York said no, no, no, over and over and over to her because she had written in first person and writing romance back then was no, no, we will not publish anybody in first person. but she continued to write and continued to pile up. I don't know how many manuscripts. And then this thing called, eBooks came and self publishing became something beyond vanity publishing. and she took off and man, she's got to be making buck.
Matt Cassem: Oh, I'm sure.
Christina Trevaskis: Oh, man. I just, I just out of sheer curiosity, she had so many books that she could publish and just keep publishing. And she's actually a very fast writer. So, You know, she, she can pump out a book in a couple of months. Not everyone can do that.
In fact, that's a rarity. most of the clients I have will take anywhere [00:18:00] from six, nine or 12 months to write one book. there are some first timers that are. A couple of years in, but that's also because you've got a secondary job and you've got other things in there.
Matt Cassem: I can't do this with my full time yet.
Christina Trevaskis: It is so much easier to write a book in a couple of months when that is your job. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So there is a difference there. So yeah when you talk voice, again, you can always fix grammar always. That's actually the last thing I think you should fix. should work on. If you're focusing on the grammar on your first draft, then you better go write a different book because I'm not sure focusing on grammar on the first.
And in fact, again, the edit that I did today, this was his very first book. And I think he was under the impression that we were going to get to the grammar, because he's like, I want this to be so perfect. So perfect. Everybody wants their book to be perfect. Oh, the thing is, you, you really do have [00:19:00] to start with the overarching picture of beginning to end.
How does this flow? Are you telling the story in the right order? And that's not necessarily A, B, C, D, that could be all all over the place, whatever makes sense for the story. But again, that's voice. Voice is all, how you decide to tell the story.
Matt Cassem: Your methodology?
Christina Trevaskis: Your, yeah.
Matt Cassem: Yeah,
Christina Trevaskis: absolutely.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, I think that's a seems like it's a major misconception, right? And I think to some degree, that's driven by our experience going through school where everything had to be perfect when you present it because you're graded on it, right? Like that's been and I and again, I'm not anti school. I just think that that's kind of what we've bred into this society, a little bit of people who haven't written before, like they just, that's all they know.
They're like, well, in school I had to get it just right. And I had to hand it in and it better have been good because otherwise I was a failure, you know?
Christina Trevaskis: Yeah.
Matt Cassem: But what do you think? [00:20:00] I mean, aside from that as a misconception, what do you think are some other misconceptions or myths that are about the writing industry that you come across all the time?
Christina Trevaskis: I actually think there's a misconception on writer's block. Yes, it exists. Yes, you get to the computer and you go, go, like, what are words? but the thing is, knowing that there's writer's block, the best thing that you can do is figure out why you have the writer's block. What is blocking you? is it something in your personal life that isn't letting you get to the words?
Is there something with the story that you are totally not getting, I had a fiction writer once, at a talk that she actually said writer's block is you not doing what your characters want you to do with their story. And she said, inevitably, when [00:21:00] I pushed through, I would have to go back to that point where I had the writer's block and write myself out of it again.
Like, okay, I understand now we got to go to the right, not the left. so she, she's firmly in that camp. I am in that camp of explaining writer's block as this. Have you ever been on a walk, in the shower, driving your car, doing the mundane, mowing the lawn, and you falling asleep at night. You're just about ready to go to bed and fall asleep and sleep.
And all of a sudden there's the most brilliant idea you've ever had. Like you're in the shower. I can't write it down. I'm on a walk. I can't write it down. That is because you have stepped away from it and are not thinking about it. Whatever it is that you're trying to figure out for whatever story you're trying to tell, that's the moment that the creativity comes through because you are not [00:22:00] strangling it to death.
You are free flowing. You are free thought. You are relaxed. You're hopefully not stressed when you're in the shower in the car on the walk. so those are the moments actually that the creativity comes in. Actually, here is the biggest takeaway, that I could give any writer, but most especially those doing it for the first time, the first draft just needs to be done because the magic happens in the second draft.
And the reason for that is, is you've got so much stress and pressure to get that draft done, to figure out the story, to work, work, work, that it isn't until you get to that second draft that you can actually take a breath. And then once you've taken that breath. You actually go into that second draft with, Oh [00:23:00] my god, I know what to do.
Oh my god, and I've got this idea. There are, I can't tell you how many of my clients, and in fact, I would actually have to sit here and ponder with all of the writers that I've ever worked with in my entire career, where that second draft didn't have moments of magic, that would not have been possible had they not written that first draft.
So I think that's why a lot of writers say stuff like first draft just has to be done. You just need to build the structure or, that is you telling yourself the story. Because all it does is need to get the ideas just need to get on paper. It does need to be more than just an outline.
You do need to kind of figure out the story and work through it. But really, that second draft. is magical. I can't even count the number of times that working with authors and seeing that second draft and I'm reading [00:24:00] it going, Oh my God. Oh my God. This is so good. Oh my God.
I never would have thought of that. Oh my God. Oh, we talked about this and this is the direction she decided to go.
Wow. You know,
Matt Cassem: It's a third direction. It's something different than we talked about.
Christina Trevaskis: Exactly. Exactly. And that's And that's actually how I see my role as that developmental editor. I am there to just help them generate the ideas.
The ideas have to be theirs. we can discuss possible things that, okay, this isn't working, but what could you do instead, X, Y, Z. But the thing is, is that I always. Always allow them enough room to just fly with it, go with it, run with it take off, because they're all creative. They're all very passionate about what they do, and when they get back to that manuscript [00:25:00] and see what we've talked about, and they don't have the pressure of getting it done anymore They're now writing in the shower metaphorically, of course. Yeah But yeah, they now no longer have those constraints of I need to think I need to think I need to think I need to think It's not squeezed off.
So I think that's actually the biggest surprise to a lot of the, the clients that I work with is how much, more happens in that second draft. Everybody is under the understanding that the second draft is okay you're just honing it more, you're tweaking things and polishing it. No, no, no, no, no.
I actually believe that you do just as much work, but maybe even more work, but it's more creative work and more fun work than the first one. You're not bleeding. What is, what is the, who said that hands on the get your hands on a keyboard and bleed. [00:26:00] Hmm. I don't know. There's some famous, famous author and I'm not getting the quote quite right, but you're no longer bleeding on your keyboard is what I'm saying.
But yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why I'm so nerdy about editing is that I do. I love digging into that first draft. First draft is always hard. I give myself more time. To edit a first draft, because I do tend to, read in chunks here and there and not just, I can't, no, no, I, I'd exhaust myself if I tried to read four hours a day for how many, no, I have to take a step back.
But I think that's good because I contemplate too, is this the right thing? Okay. I've suggested this, is this the right thing? Because sometimes I don't know. I don't know if I'm making the right suggestion. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. until I say it and they say, wow, yeah, that helped.
Matt Cassem: That's awesome.
Thinking about the industry and thinking about the, [00:27:00] the work that you do with the with the writers, like, how do you stay up to date with just the latest kind of trends, developments in the writing world? And how does that inform what you offer? Right. Well, the way that you do your work.
Christina Trevaskis: I don't know if you're coming from a place of knowing on this or if you're putting me on the spot. no, I think you already know this about me. I am one of those people say don't write to trend. I think it's a grand idea and if you can get it out there quick enough all the more power to you.
But I actually think. You should write what you are passionate about. There's an author, that I work with. we're on our sixth book together, seventh book somewhere in there. and the first series that she wrote is fantastic. It was great. She loved it. She hands me the first book of the next series that she's starting, and it is just... [00:28:00] so... wow and I'm reading it and, I do think that probably is the only time that the second draft was real quick back to me because there was hardly anything to fix on the first one. and we got to talking and she said she actually started writing this book first.
But she said she knew she wasn't capable of telling the story the way she wanted to tell it, until she kind of learned how to write. But also, this was the book of her heart. This was the book she was really super passionate about. And that came through.
Matt Cassem: Okay.
Christina Trevaskis: And there are so many times, early on, just to, as you say kind of keep my pulse on the industry. I would do free 30 minute like, Q and a, individual. So anybody could come into my calendar and those times that I had [00:29:00] set aside and just fill them up. It was free 30 minutes. You could ask me anything. the biggest. Things that I would get would be, I'm not selling.
Why am I not selling? And then inevitably it would come down to. Well, they're writing this genre because it's selling and, but they really want to write in this genre because that's their passion. No, that's what I mean by don't write to trend don't write to something that like, Hey, this is really selling and I can make a quick buck.
Because actually in today's industry right now. Mm mm ain't happening.
Matt Cassem: I feel like if you're, if you're jumping on that trend, it, the trend is, the train's already gone. Like, I think you're, you're kind of too late to the game.
Christina Trevaskis: The thing, yeah, that's exactly it. Like by the time that you actually, Oh, hey, this is a trend and I recognize it as a trend.
You, unless you are that person that can write it in a couple of months. no, no, I will say this. [00:30:00] If that is your passion. Now, the author that I was just talking about who this book is her book of the heart, it's actually a trend and it's a popular trend, but she does it so well so it is, I really think I, it'll be interesting to see it has not released yet.
and she's working on book two in that series and, already , putting out ideas for book number three. but I, I'm just really excited to see what happens differently with this one. And it won't be because her writing is very solid. It's been solid from the very beginning. And the story in the series that she started with was fantastic.
Great idea, very, suspenseful. And, I think she doesn't really, even though she's writing romance it's, oh, it's very good. yeah. So I think that writing to trend, Hey, if you're passionate about that trend, absolutely 100%. but maybe instead of being on trend, why don't you be the [00:31:00] trendsetter?
Like if you've got an idea for something, the funny thing is, is that, I had a, a writer that was working on some modern day Westerns before Yellowstone existed before Yellowstone existed.
Okay. So that's what you call a trend leader. Someone that is going to be right on that curve, right on that edge.
yeah. So I
Matt Cassem: There you go.
Christina Trevaskis: I'm not the one that's going to tell you to write to trend just to sell. I, I am actually one of those that says write something totally different. If that's what you're called to write, if you've got an idea for something that's man, this is so out there. Like that's the kind of stuff I want to do it.
I want to see that. I want to see that. The funny thing is, is that, a lot of industry complains that, oh, the [00:32:00] readers say they want something different, but then when you put out something different, they don't want it. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. They want something different in one aspect, but they want to feel the same way and that's why some authors get pigeonholed.
I have this theory. Or this thing that I say, John, I call it the John Grisham effect. cause when I was still in the bookstore John Grisham came out with his first legal thriller, took off, he wrote legal thriller after legal thriller, after legal thriller. And then readers, customers would be like, ah, that's all he writes is legal thrillers.
This is, they're all getting the same. I feel like I'm reading the same book. So then he comes out with "A Painted House." And you'd think, Oh, this is so different. This is what everybody's asking for. Right? Yeah. Oh, it was so dry. Why can't he just go back to [00:33:00] and then what happens? He goes back to his first legal thriller and it is this mega he's back.
He's no, I think a couple of things happened here. First of all, he did yeah. Have this story idea of a painted house. He really wanted to write it. He really was passionate about it and he needed that. He needed that creative expression and he should publish it because there are people out there.
Please call us if this is your thing or email us or whatever that loved a painted house. That loved his me, I love me some Stephen King that's not horror. Yep. Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, Green Mile different seasons Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. Yes, that movie.
that was the title of the And The Body, which is a. k. a. Stand By Me, those were some of my favorite books because he's just, for me, he's magical when he writes that, but I know everybody else is his horror fan. but yeah, [00:34:00] I do think that some writers need that palate cleanser before they get back to what they're really good at, what they're really passionate about.
So I, I think there's a place for all books. I love it. As a reader, there's a place for every single book, there is a reader.
Matt Cassem: Yeah, absolutely.
Christina Trevaskis: That's,
Matt Cassem: there's a story for everybody.
Christina Trevaskis: There is.
Matt Cassem: This is the last question for you. What inspires you the most about working with writers and helping them to become better, to achieve their goals, to find their unique voice?
Christina Trevaskis: I mentioned it in passing earlier, but it is the magic of that second draft. When I get that second draft and I read it, there have been occasions where it has brought me to tears with the amount of growth from first draft to second draft, and that's really where I came up with that phrase. Editing is where the magic happens [00:35:00] because if you hadn't taken the time to edit it in a way that was.
Not just adding more editing is not about taking out editing for me is making it a more full story is making it a living breathing thing. Then a Oh, we need to cut this. We need to refine it. It's yeah. So that is why I keep doing what I do instead of going, I give up.
I can't work with creatives anymore. They're driving me nuts. It's like herding cats. no, it is those moments that you see the author's growth growth from book. The first draft, the second draft to even final draft, the other thing, that keeps me, working with these people is just the sheer joy of seeing them make their dreams come true.
When they have [00:36:00] that first reader that emails them, or just the discovery of this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And they, all of them, I don't have one client that does not work their ass off between that first draft and that second draft. I might be lucky that way but that's what inspires me with this.
Matt Cassem: That's what inspires you.
That's awesome. Well, very good. Thank you very, very much for sharing yourself with us and giving us some insight.
Christina Trevaskis: Thank you for the wonderful questions. Those were great questions.
Matt Cassem: You got it. If they want to find more about you, my darling, tell us, where do we find you?
Christina Trevaskis: Book matchmaker.com. Okay. [email protected]. I mostly hang out on Instagram, but I can be found on those other formats too. But Instagram is where I like to Yeah. Where I like to hang. I love it. I [00:37:00] love it. Yes. And you, where can they find you?
Matt Cassem: Oh Lord, I'm everywhere. Easiest way to find me is at, kassem, C A S S E M dot O M G dot L O L.
I'll take you to all of my things and find all of the various things. Yes.
Yeah.
Christina Trevaskis: You are so uniquely, you can't have a dot com, you can't have a... No, get me at L O L.
Matt Cassem: O M G dot L O L.
Christina Trevaskis: I love you.
Matt Cassem: It's one of my favorite services. I love you. Oh, I love you too. All right, my darling, well... Thanks for listening in and join us next time.
We'll be back. We'll talk more at length about Heartstopper and the stories that move us.
Bye.