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Matt: Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud, the podcast about writing, authorship, storytelling, and the creative types of endeavors that one might undertake. It is me, of course, Matt Cassem. I've got the beautiful, amazing, stunning, stellar, and amazing, All so incredible.
Christina: You couldn't figure out what that last word was. What adjective you were going to give me.
Matt: I will
Christina: But I'll take incredible. That's, that's nothing to sneeze at.
Matt: are incredible. so I hear that we have a special topic that we want to talk about this week.
Christina: Yes.
Matt: is that?
Christina: Yes. Burnout. Burnout. Burnout. Burnout. Burnout. Oh, yes. We have all been burned out at one point or another for different varying reasons and everything.
Matt: Definitely have,
Christina: [00:01:45] yes. And in fact, I don't know if you're going to incorporate it into this episode. You probably already have. Last week we were actually supposed to record this and we danced around it all night long until we both said, I'm just too burned out.
Which
Matt: Fortuitous on that one, I
Christina: yes, yes. And we had a good laugh about it and we said, okay, we're both, feeling the same thing. So what is burnout? I have a very simplistic definition. I'm going to give that part and then you have some added thoughts. So burnout is a state of complete mental, physical, and emotional exhaustion.
That in itself is burnout. It can have a lot of causes.
Yeah.
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I think also, the manifestation of that, right, that feeling of being drained of just not having the energy or the, [00:02:45] the fortitude to go forward and just the ability or not even the ability,
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: from work, right. That you're
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: bring you the joy that it did.
And again, I say work, but I mean, really, we're talking about in our scope of things,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: endeavors, right. So know you had a quote that you'd found from Arianna Huffington.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Grande,
Christina: Ariana Grande. Oh, little bit different. Yeah. This is actually where the idea for this particular podcast came. It's in a different, she was addressing a different topic altogether, but it really struck me. for creative people. And that's why I wanted to bring it into this space with writers, storytellers, the creative side of you that needs to deal with the burnout in order to create.
So the quote is when we're burned out, We're less likely to come up with creative solutions to complex [00:03:45] problems like climate change. So of course she was talking about climate change, but I really honed in on the come up with creative solutions to complex problems. How many times have you been sitting there with your story and you can't figure out what needs to happen next or this particular thing about a character or a problem or whatever it is that you're dealing with.
Under normal circumstances, when you're not burned out, you can come up with a million and one solutions. You have all the tools, you have your routine, you have your different, ways of dealing with it, of, of being creative, but burnout adds an extra layer of, you can't come up with the creative solutions because literally.
Your brain does not want to function. Your brain is saying to you, I'm tired. I'm, [00:04:45] mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted. Your brain is saying those three things and I'm done. I'm not going to give you any creative things. You're not going to get anything out of me.
You actually said something that reminded me of a note I took on this when I was, putting this together and that is you were talking about moving forward. Burnout. Tends to be one of the causes is moving at a pace you can't sustain, whether that is in that, work side or life side, one or the other is moving at a pace you can't sustain.
Matt: Well, I think there might be different ways that cause it, right? Like
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: to your point, it could be just an imbalance because work is stressing you out too much. And you just don't have the mental capacity to come home and work on this creative endeavor, right? maybe you also have to come home and take care of the kids and do more like.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: work, right? So you [00:05:45] just don't have the, you don't have the bandwidth to do it. Or it could just be, it could manifest as procrastination. Like you're
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: page and you're like, I got to get this done, but
Christina: Oh yeah.
Matt: don't want to,
Christina: Oh, I, I think. Yeah.
Matt: much into it.
Christina: I think now.
Matt: of ways.
Christina: Yeah, I think burnout, one of the major symptoms is, is what you just said, procrastination. If you are procrastinating figuring out why you are, it could be as simple of, okay, you don't know how to, solve this problem or whatever. It might not be related to burnout, but I don't think there is burnout without procrastination because burnout, I think automatically drives you to do.
Those procrastinating things because you want to avoid, the, the having to think the having to do the having to, function, you just want to now this is, this is absolutely separate from, if you're suffering from depression, if you're suffering from [00:06:45] anxieties and other things, those two things can be a part of burnout.
Certainly. But it's a different thing if you're suffering from depression and then burnout is just, along for the ride. We're not talking about that, but yeah, I think you came across an article that gave some great bullet points on once you figure out you're burned out and suffering from it, what are some things they suggested doing?
Matt: Yeah, it's an interesting list of things that all makes sense, but I think they're a little bit in the wrong order.
Christina: Okay.
Matt: So I'm going to read them as they are, and then we'll just kind of talk through it. Identify the sources. we just kind of talked a little bit about that. Whether it's, I've been going too hard, too long on this book, trying to finish it, and now I'm burnt out because I've just put too much mental energy into covering a lot of ground or again, work is stressing me out, or I've got, just life has me by the nape of the neck, [00:07:45] whatever,
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: the sources, set boundaries, breaks, practice self care, seek support, manage stress. evaluate your goals and priorities, improve time management, tasks, and then the last one, is why I say this is out of order, I think, consider professional help. So, I think depending on the
Christina: Yeah,
Matt: your burnout is going to depend on what order those go in, right?
Christina: great.
Matt: I think there's times when you're, you're burnt out and it's just sort of a quick temporary little thing.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: when you're burnt out, but it's a much longer term thing because you've got so much going
Christina: Yeah. Yeah
Matt: that you just can't get rid of it that quickly.
Christina: Yeah, I, I absolutely 100 percent agree with you. I do feel like that list is, absolutely out of order. I think if you were going to deal with it like you said, there's short term burnout, like what you [00:08:45] and I experienced last week with the podcast that was short term. We were both back to normal the next day, able to, do our thing, but it was like, at the time that we were supposed to record, both of us were just mentally, emotionally and physically exhausted.
And you can't think much less, be creative. And that's short term and long term burnout, isn't something that you can, Oh, you know what? Let me go to bed early tonight. I'll be rejuvenated tomorrow. That's, that's not that longterm burnout. And that's definitely the burnout that, if burnout is actually interfering with your work.
So specifically for this podcast, if it's interfering with your writing, that's when you sit back and go, okay, what's causing this figuring out what the root causes, then going to that list. [00:09:45] That you gave and, and say to yourself, is this something that I can talk to my BFF or my writing buddies or, my parent group or, someone more professional on some level, like a life coach might be able to handle it.
A certified therapist, not a psychiatrist, a certified therapist that you could just unload your issues to, and they can give you tools, or is it something deeper like a depression? Do you need to, seek other help? I think there's, like you said, there's, there's a little bit different priority list
Matt: hmm.
Christina: for sure.
Matt: different
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: you go, the more, the longer the list gets and the more important it is to
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: up. Yeah, I think, again, we go back to the example of somebody who's just been going, trying to write that novel. too hard for too long, like they've literally maybe taken a hiatus from work and they're just focused on writing and they're forcing
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: sit at the table and just write, write, write, write, write for days on [00:10:45] end.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: Right? That may be a more short term
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: where you can say, look, let me just go a jog
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: let me do some yoga and do some meditation. And let me get my head out of this then come back to
Christina: I, I also think always when I have someone that I'm speaking to, that's a writer and they tell me that they write seven days a week, I have to find out a little bit more because if you are writing seven days a week, are you only writing for a few hours a day? That's one thing that's not, that's not going to put you in any sort of burnout just by doing it a couple of hours every single day.
Maybe that's how you stay. On track. That's great. That's fine. But those people that tell me that they write for six, eight, 10 hours a day, every day. No, you can't sustain that. I'm sorry. I don't, I don't believe [00:11:45] that. That's going to get your work life balance, way out of whack, way out of whack.
And you're, you're gonna end up. On the other end of that burnout, having to stop and refocus and refigure and, get yourself out of it. You're going to have to dig yourself out of it again. I'm not talking about the people that are writing, two, four hours a day, maybe even that six.
Cause we're talking about when you're writing, it's deep concentration, you are in it, you were so focused on something, you are using that brain power that you have to eventually rest and rejuvenate. That, that can lead you into things that we've talked about on this podcast before, writer's block.
Writer's block isn't. Oh, I can't figure this out. Writer's block is I have burnout and I can't think I can't come up with those creative solutions or, you're trying too hard [00:12:45] and you're squeezing the life out of any solutions that's not going to happen. That's why, when you're in the shower on a drive.
On a walk, all of a sudden, those ideas start popping up is because you've let everything go. So, yeah, that's a little bit different. But yeah, 1 of my favorite things to do when I'm burned out. I have a dog. He is. Just, the light of my life makes me laugh. I sent a picture to Matt earlier today cause I got up out of my chair and I came back and I swear I was only gone for two minutes.
And the dog is in my chair with the iPad, In between his paws I don't know actually how it got there. It must have like, fallen on him when he, jumped into the but it looked like he was,
Matt: I
Christina: So those little moments rejuvenate me.
So when I'm really feeling burnout I like to go outside. I like to go outside with the dog. I take him for a walk. I, do stuff [00:13:45] around the yard, feed the birds, but he's out there with me. Just something that allows me to let go of everything. We didn't get, into a lot of the, the work life balance issues, but when you're out in nature, neither one of those things matter.
It's the one place that you can go that you literally. Don't have to think you can just be. And sometimes that's the quickest way out. Especially out of short term, burnout. What are some other things that they, they suggested on that list of things to do that stood out to you?
Matt: we've talked about taking breaks, right? Setting
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: So your boundaries might be something like, Hey, I'm only going to allow myself
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: do writing for two to three hours, right? One of the things that we, we haven't really talked about a whole lot of this in this, know, series is creativity loves constraints. So sometimes if you do put that boundary on yourself [00:14:45] that I'm only going to, I can only write for two hours.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: No more. Each day. And in that time, once that time, you set yourself a timer and once that time is up, you're done for the day. Right? And then you start to, you start to figure out, okay, how can I make this come to life for me?
How can I make this get the most out of me? These two hours that I have, right? So that's, that is something that you could do as a boundary for yourself. there's other boundaries too. Like, there may be boundaries you have to set at work that allow you to
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: be creative and do some of those fun things.
There might be, maybe family puts a lot on you,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: certain boundaries you have to set with family that like,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: time. From this time to this time, this is my time. Every other time, good. I'll help you. I'll do whatever you need. But,
Christina: yeah.
Matt: two hours,
Christina: Yeah. There was, there was an author once who said that she hangs a sign on her door that says, and I I'm totally paraphrasing. I know there were more things than, than this, but like, unless you [00:15:45] are.
I, I don't, I don't even know what else it said, like, but it was like, or at death's door, do not knock, I, it was all kind of tongue in cheek. But seriously, if this isn't something that. You have to deal with during that time, hopefully you have, a partner in life that maybe can take care of the kids for that, again, set aside time of 2 hours, 3 hours, whatever it is that you can afford to do.
But yeah, setting, setting home boundaries, I think is the hardest thing to do. And it is important to close that door because if you leave the door open, as I have discovered, they think you're not working.
Matt: Yep.
Christina: They think you're not working. So it's like, Oh, but your door was open. Well, that's because I wanted the, the door open, but yeah, boundaries are really difficult to do.
So it's going to have to be a step by step. Sort of thing, testing different ways of doing it. Yeah, good point.
Matt: There was an [00:16:45] interesting study to I was just trying to pull it up. So there was a study out of King's college in London,
Christina: Yes.
Matt: About the effects on everyday encounters with birdsong how birdsong actually elevates your mental wellbeing, your mental health, that
Christina: Really?
Matt: Yep. That it. Was found to actually help people, even with depression to again, kind of elevate their mood, not necessarily fix it.
It wasn't a
Christina: Right.
Matt: a solve, but it really helped elevate that of well being.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: And then there was just something, something to that. So they, they had different groups, kind of that had the same, maybe it was medication and this group had birdsong. This group did not, whatever it was, but they found that there was an absolute impact that.
Christina: Yeah, and see that totally makes sense to me too because again Nature is my one place that I can find peace and that's why I was like, really? Because when I'm out in nature, [00:17:45] I don't live in In what's considered a town, I'm in a little tiny community that's unincorporated, about 20 minutes outside of, the biggest town.
So when I go out, I absolutely hear the birds. And in fact. I'm, I wouldn't call myself a birdie person but I can tell the different birds. I can tell what a blue Jay sounds like versus, a woodpecker. And I'm not talking about their, pecking wood, but that their actual, bird song, as you say.
So, yeah. And again, I, I'm reminded that it's the one place that you don't really have to think, because. If I don't know what the bird is, I'll be like, Oh, I wonder what that bird is. I'm, I'm still not really, using my brain at a capacity when I'm out in nature that I'm able to rejuvenate,
Matt: Mm hmm.
I [00:18:45] think it is a little bit of a form of mindfulness
Christina: yeah, yeah,
Matt: you're focusing happening now,
Christina: yes.
Matt: on
Christina: You're in the now. Well,
Matt: moment, maybe what I can see as I look around looking for the birds, right, that, that also helps with that. I mean, their song, depending on the bird, their song is, is really pretty. There are some birds that do not have pretty songs, but in general,
Christina: what ones would those be?
Matt: the sand hill crane, if you haven't heard. It's call. It sounds like a flipping pterodactyl.
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: or what I
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: but but no, I mean, all, all of these things I think is to say, find things that work for you that help take you out of that moment to help kind of center yourself and, again, just, just let, let stuff go and you'll find. That you'll see a lot more benefit than that.
Christina: Yeah. I think actually the [00:19:45] most important thing that you can do is figure out whether it is the short term burnout. Is this easily fixable or is this longterm burnout? Do I need to seek someone out? Do I need to, do something further than just in the moment? Because I think once you do that, A little bit more of a direction and ease and, can I just go outside for 15 minutes or do I need to go outside for 15 minutes every single day?
Two, three times a day just to, deal with whatever it is you're, dealing with.
Matt: Yeah, for sure. I think there's, there's something for everybody in this one,
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: all, all experienced it. We all kind of know what helps us disconnect and find maybe our flow again, as it were, and try to get away from
Christina: Yeah.
Matt: keeping us from being as creative as we could possibly
Christina: possibly be. Yeah. I think that's the takeaway for me for this episode [00:20:45] is realizing. That it's okay to recognize your burnout because that means you understand why you couldn't come up with those creative solutions. Why you weren't able to focus because once you figure out what's going on, you can figure out how to solve it.
Yes. Yes.
Matt: A problem well defined is a problem half solved. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Christina: If you don't know what the problem is, you can't solve it.
Matt: exactly. Exactly.
Christina: Exactly.
Matt: there we have it. Burnout again, it's a real thing. We all know that we've dealt with it at some point or another, just like imposter syndrome,
Christina: Yes.
Matt: It is something that can be easily solved if you take the time to analyze it, think about it, and then create a plan, right? We make it seem so simple.
Christina: Well, again, I think the biggest battle is to actually recognize. that you're feeling burned out. Because [00:21:45] I think people just tend to push through, like, Oh, I just need to get through this. But I think with burnout recognizing that you have it and taking a moment to pause, really isn't something that, we've been taught to do.
Matt: Yeah, I agree. Well, very good. Well, burnout, we are burnt out on burnout
Christina: Yes.
We've burned this topic.
Matt: that we are going to plant a flag that we know how we're going to deal with this. And that for me is to grab some whiskey. I don't know
Christina: Oh yes.
Matt: but a nice little drink
Christina: No.
Matt: unwind.
Christina: Give me a piece of dark chocolate. That's my, that's my whiskey. Bye.
Matt: There you go. All right, my dear. Well, thank you. And thank you very much for listening. We hope that we will see you again next week until then. Bye.