AEW’s Bobby Lashley Problem, AEW Dynamite Review

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and welcome to the WrestleTalk Podcast here every Tuesday and Friday, but this week, every Monday, Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday, because it's Survivor Series Whore Games weekend, and we will be back on Sunday with our review of that show.

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to do loads and loads of posts for us. So, yeah, thank you very much. Please do subscribe. Survivor Series is this weekend. But now on this episode, we're going to be reviewing AEW Dynamite, the first full gear, post full gear episode and the start. of the continental classic.

Oh, it's full of substance. I love it. It's one of my favorite times of the wrestling calendar. But we're going to be kicking things off, sticking with AEW, actually. Talking about this idea that AEW has a Bobby Lashley problem, or a hurt syndicate. problem, which stems from a much sort of like, this has been going on for a while now. It also comes pretty much on the anniversary of Bobby Lashley's

in-ring debut. Yeah. So it was sort of 13 months into Bobby Lashley now. And I would say it is stemmed mostly from Alvarez and Meltzer. A lot of this chat has really stemmed from them being like, they don't want to lose. They don't want to lose to people. They don't want to put anyone over. And they only want to work with certain people, and they don't want to lose to people.

And it's the idea that they were given the Road Warriors dominant victory gimmick. They won squash matches. They had a long title reign. They were put in a three-way to lose those tag titles, though they didn't get pinned. And now... neither of them are in the C2 because the gimmick of the C2 is you might have to take a loss within there because you can't just win all of the matches.

you need to have a balance within there. Yeah, I've got the exact quote from Wrestling Observer Radio. You can tell the guys who don't want to lose or that Tony Khan, you know, whatever, you can see it. They all deny it, but you can watch the booking. So we thought, let's go back.

Let's look at the booking of the Hurt Syndicate in AEW. Just while we're on that subject, I do want to say this is not a report from Meltzer. Meltzer's not saying this is the real reason they're not in the C2. This is just pure... melts a speculation yeah but he's that they've been saying for a while that they won't lose they don't want to lose but it's only them that are saying this you know 54 select had that report uh which you know a lot of people then uh debunked well i say

a lot of people, the people involved were trying to debunk as much as possible. I have said on this podcast, I think there is no smoke without fire. I think the three way where they lose the tag titles did them no favors in the you don't want to lose to certain people category, which we'll come on to in a little bit. I think here, though, with the C2, it is a slightly different kettle of fish.

If you have got an act that you are protecting, you don't put them in the C2 for this very reason. Well, then, so whatever the reason is... Right now, it's not working for me anymore. So whether it is Bobby Lashley, MVP and Shelton Benjamin being like, nope, we don't take pins, brother, or...

Just bad booking. And actually they're like, dude, Tony, let us put someone over. Please, we just want Mike Bailey to beat one of us clean. And Tony's like, no, I need to book you strong. Whatever one of those, it's... it's run out my patience has worn thin and i do think they should start putting people over and not creating new titles to give them their own playground to operate them yeah do you know why it doesn't work for me either because this has happened long before they came into

AEW as well. The exact same problem with Bobby Lashley was when he was in WWE. make sure to protect him and book him to look strong and he had the US title and he was put into a three way because they were going to take the title off of him but didn't want him to get pinned so Matt Riddle's just put into that match so we can pin I think it was Matt Riddle one of the others anyway

putting him in situations where you don't want to have him be pinned. I think it's just that Bobby Lashley has just a problem overall, where Booker's just want to have him protected. And I'm not into it. I absolutely am not into the Hurt Syndicate a lot of the time in AEW. There are times when I find them quite entertaining. but of the majority of this over-protection of them, whether it comes from them or it comes from Tony, I'm not into it at all. I don't know if WWE had the same...

thing with Bobby because, yeah, sure, there were periods in the almighty era and Vince was just like, oh, look at his butt. But then at the same time, you had some horrible booking of Bobby Lashley beforehand where it is. Actually, literally, look at this guy's butt. Leo Rush is his manager. Bobby Lashley's sisters. All that stuff. So I feel like Vince had a rock-solid...

One for this guy. Triple H seemed to not be into him at all. He was not into him at all. And MVP brings it up whenever he can in interviews. He does not like Triple H, which is interesting because usually... This is separate from the AEW problem that they've had in the past with ex-WWE guys. Namely, Rusev, Aleister Black, and, haha, Andrade. Well, they come into AEW...

And there's a bit of a honeymoon period. But ultimately, they don't want to lose because they're now looking back over at WWE. I don't want to lose. I want to protect myself. for when I go back over there. Yeah, there was the reports at the time. And I heard this from people as well. It wasn't just Meltzer saying this on Wrestling Observe Radio. I was hearing this from people as well. It's like, well, yeah, Aleister Black doesn't want to lose to people. He sees this as a stopgap.

He's been released by WWE, but really, he is just using it to collect a paycheck to go back. Same with Miro as well. Granted, and just for the sake of clarity...

Both of them have denied that in interviews and stuff. They have gone on the record saying, that is not what happened. But you can also just look at the track record and be like, it is weird that Alice in Black had like two singles matches in AEW, whatever it was. That's, you know, I would put it down to, I never would say it's an official.

report from me it's just rumor and scuttlebutt as well whatever i heard so i think it's a slight difference between these two things the bobby lashley thing like this one is a totally different thing yeah this one is very much just I want to protect this character. So I don't want to put them into a tournament where you have to have losses. Yeah. Because that...

undermines the character of the almighty Bobby Lashley that I'm putting out on TV. Oh, but it's not just a tournament. This is a whole year of booking and title losses and everything. So I wouldn't get too hung up on the C2. That's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm only saying that because...

specifically why we started talking about this is because the question was why is he not in the sea too well it's also it's also the casino gauntlet that was at full gear yeah we said i think the national title is created just to give bobby lashley a playground i also think this person sent him this question knowing exactly what the answer was so that they could generate this. Yeah, I think the person who submitted the question to Wrestling Observer Radio was a bike mailing, a bead saw...

Bike? Mate? God, that's more difficult than I thought it would be. You really got yourself into a tiz with that one. So, here is Bobby Lashley's last 18 months. All-time...

banging WrestleMania 40 match. We all remember it. It's the six man with the pride and the street profits. Was it the pride? Yeah, it was, wasn't it? I was trying to think if they were in the Testament match. I don't know if they ever... Who was the Testament match against? Was it... I think it was the final testament, wasn't it?

Against the Pride? Oh, that's what they were, the Pride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if they were ever officially called the Pride. But yeah, Lashley and the Street Profits, an act that never worked. And a couple of months later in May, he leaves WWE. In September 2024, MVP debuts in AEW at Grand Slam. So big episode traditionally annually of AEW. And he is sort of the silver surfer of...

Yep, you guys know what's coming. We thought the Hurt Business, that faction you all loved in WWE, got shortchanged. And the reports have aged, well, Shelton's a free agent. He was released in 2023. Bobby's just left. We all knew what was coming. So in October, just the week after, Shelton Benjamin debuts. And then on the 30th of October, the sort of Halloween Fright Night episode of Dynamite that year.

Bobby Lashley goes right into the top of the card and beats Swerve Strickland. Sorry, attacks Swerve Strickland. That's his debuting angle. And then his first, like, he has, like, a two-on-one handicap match, right? And then he, at full gear, beats Swerve. Yeah. And everyone at that time, myself included, was like...

And then you'll do the rematch there because it's kind of weird to beat Swerve in your first match. I mean, it's not weird in the sense of because he's a debuting guy coming in, so you want to give him a big win. But it is weird in the sense of, well, Swerve is very much one of your top guys. He is one of your main...

event is in the world title scene i don't think you should just be beating him willy nilly but it's okay because there'll be a return match where swerve gets the win back which we're going to come that'll be the next match uh oh let me have a look that must must be uh 2025. Nope, that's the tax. Nope, that never resulted in anything. I remember where Swerve was in November, just in August, he was putting over Brian Danielson, rather, in the main event of All In.

This is where I think the C2 thing is a misnomer in this Bobby Lashley discussion. I know it's why we started this, but him being in the C2 makes complete sense to me. I disagree. Him being in the C2 makes perfect sense. No, it doesn't. He's a protected character. So is Moxley, but you have a story. Look, let's go through chronologically and we'll get to our thoughts on C2, which we clearly feel differently about. And I will...

Invoke the name Stone Cold Steve Austin when we get there as well. Okay. So, yeah, the swerve match happens. He beats him, and there is no follow-up to it. There is no swerve win to create the rubber match. doesn't really do much until the new year where Shelton and Bobby beat Private Party for the tag belts. That makes sense to me. They did absolutely... nothing with Private Party as the tag team champions. So putting the belts on the Hurt Syndicate I think could make complete sense.

This was in a time where AEW's tag division was sort of, I don't know, like it was just unfocused. Yeah. The reason why Private Party kind of had nothing to do is because they didn't really have any top contenders coming out of it. So... You've got the belt on the Hurt Syndicate now, and they have matches against the Guns. The Outrunners, The Learning Tree, Sons of Texas, Gates of Agony, Top Flight. Gates of Agony have gone up the cards slightly, but these are...

These are undercarder tag teams, mostly. At this point, GOA were an undercard tag team. It's not until they get into a group with Ricochet that they do level up the card. Here they were. I mean, probably... below the learning tree in terms of like tv time you were getting and then they was it all in they faced jet speed yes that was it was the patriarchy were randomly added as well and we thought then

this is where they're going to take the titles off the Hurt Syndicate because it's a three-way tag match and you can have them lose the titles without being pinned. And I also, at that time, went on the defense for the Hurt Syndicate because people were saying, they're just burying Jet Speed. And I was like... It's going to make sense when you get to the match because then Jet Speed get the one over and they beat the Hurt Syndicate or they win the tag titles.

Egg on my face. That is not what happened at all. Yeah, because there was this angle leading into this show to build the match before the patriarchy were added, I think, where Jet Speed... Get beaten up by the Hurt Business. Sorry, Hurt Syndicate in the ring. And Lashley and Sheldon leave. And then Mike Bailey gets to his feet. And he's like, ah, come on, we're still. And they beat them up again. And then they do that again.

And I think they go four times over. I was like, and it's going to build two. them getting the one over them. Because at that point, it was just a straight tag match. And I was like, it's a fine enough story to build an underdog babyface team who then get the win over the dominant tag team. And then it just got super messy because they added the patriarchy. really late minutes in this yeah and that was only done

because you were doing the Adam Copeland return and the go find yourself angle, which then sort of overshadowed everything they were doing with the Hertz syndicate and jet speed. Well, there wasn't much to... to overshadow because in that match, the Hurt Syndicate just were on the outside. They didn't tag in most of the time. And when they tagged in, they laid waste to everyone.

hated that match it was one of the worst things on what was otherwise a really good show it went so long and i remember being so annoyed at that match because there's nothing the match really ended up being a backdrop for the Copeland return and the go find yourself angle and the split the patriarchy. So don't have this match go 20 minutes there. This match could have just gone seven minutes and it would have accomplished the exact same thing. So this bit for me, so this is July.

This is when the shine goes off the hurt syndicate for me because I think everyone was like, oh, yeah, it's wrestling booking 101. You are establishing this. road warriors style act who are just laying waste to everyone because they will go on a dominant run of six to nine months and then A team beats them. I never thought it would be Jet Speed. I would have loved for it to have been, but then I thought it might be FTR or Brodido or Gates of Agony. So we're like, oh, okay.

That isn't that doesn't seem to be what's happening because this is now not like great on screen character portrayals of a road warrior type character. It's oh, it feels more like bad backstage stuff. Like the road warriors when they just wouldn't sell for people. This is when the report started coming out that...

They don't want to work with certain people. They don't want to put people over. An MVP in particular does not like Speedball Mike Bailey. This is from Fightful and Wrestling Observer. And then Speedball posted that video. with MVP where they were there to squash those rumors and this, that, and the other. So, you know, it's one of those things you can sort of trust what the wrestlers are saying or what the reporters are saying.

And some people will just pick the camp, whichever one they want to sit into. So then, in August, we get Forbidden Door, which we were at live in London, and it was announced as a three-way... Elimination match. FTR versus the Hurt Syndicate, the champions, versus Brodido. Yeah. Because FTR and Brodido had done that whole tournament and they drew, so it was becoming... And yeah.

We thought, I think on the show, we were like, oh my God, this is... They're going to... They're going to have to beat them. Well, initially, I think, we didn't hear the elimination bit. It was all quite... confusing the way this was announced so we're like of course it's a three-way that's right they can drop the belt without getting pinned so on if i remember correctly on dynamite it was not an absolute elimination match then you and i did our predictions being like it's just a way for

them to take the titles off without being pinned. Then I think they announced on social media and everyone took us to task in the comments being like, you morons, they're going to have to. And then you get to the show and it's not an elimination match. And we said the reaction to that match was really weird because you could tell that the crowd were not sure.

what the actual rules of the match were. Yeah, because it's a hardcore crowd. It's London for an AEW show. They probably are following the social media announcements for once. But yeah, in that match... They didn't even do the job. Instead, Gates of Agony came in under hoods and they beat up the Hurt Syndicate. They brought to the back and the ending of the match is FTR Brodido and Brodido win. And it was actually...

Brodido winning was one of the more unexpected great things to have happened this year for AEW, I think. Wish I could have seen it. Yeah. But again, so the whole point of the Hurt Syndicate being booked so strong is to put over... who the new champions will eventually be when they beat them. Yeah, this is where the bloom came off the rose for me. Because with All In, I didn't blame the Hurt Syndicate in there.

I more blame Copeland and sort of like Tony Khan putting more of the focus on Copeland and Christian getting together, which I'm very excited for. And I was like into, but like doing that angle to overshadow the story you were doing with the Hertzinnaker and jet speed that.

that fell at the expense of doing the Copeland return instead. Right. But with this, where they were in a match and they didn't take the pin. And I remember doing the review for that show. And I was like, you are doing yourselves no favors.

or like aw are doing themselves no favors to battle these reports they don't want to put people over when you put them in a three-way match where two other teams actually are the ones involved in the finish to lose that to win the tag titles this is where the bloom completely came off the road And then for the last three months, it's effectively been feuding with Ricochet and the Gates of Agony, who became The Demand. So Bobby beats Toa Leona, The Demand won it all out, but all The Demand wins.

mostly come via MVP or something like that. It's pinning MVP. The Hurt Syndicate win on Dynamite. GOA beat the Hurt Syndicate later on. Then the Hurt Syndicate beat the demand on the three-way at WrestleDream. Then the Ops beat the Hurt Syndicate. on a match. Because of the demand. Yeah, MVP I think takes the pin still. And then Lashley is in the number one contenders match, even though we all know it's going to be Samoa Joe. It's Joe...

Lashley, Hook, and... Ricochet. Ricochet in the four-way number one contenders match for Full Gear. I didn't think it was going to be Jordan. That was for certain. He'd already done the angle. He'd already turned heel at WrestleDream.

Yeah, they'd done the match, but that doesn't mean he was automatically going to win the number one contendership thing again. I think it's not like... I can't actually remember what we might have said. We might have said it was a foregone conclusion at the time. I don't know if Chelsea could have been Bobby. I think I was angling for them to do Hangman versus Bobby for the title.

That would have made more sense. No, it wouldn't have made more sense because at WrestleDream, Hangman wins, but then Joe turns heel on him afterwards. Then there's an angle on Dynamite, I'm pretty sure, where Joe... you know, calls out Hangman. And then it's this number one contenders match. So yeah, and then they announce, oh, we're going to have a new title.

Which I don't think anyone on the planet, particularly Mike Bondo, was excited about. And if anything, this title... has really muddied the waters for the Continental Classic as well, which we'll get to when we get to the Dynamite review, because I don't think I now fully understand what the title belts in AEW are. It gets a trove.

Trophy. Nope. No, the Continental Classic title is on the line in the C2. I thought this was for the Owen Hart Cup. The Owen Hart Cup belt. The Owen Hart Cup belt. Don't you win Martha Hart at the end of the C2? She becomes your valet. You get a seat on the foundation board. So, yeah, they announced the national championship and everyone, everyone said.

oh, okay, because Bobby, this is like Bobby's belt. You're not going to put him in the title picture. They didn't want to beat Okada, so Okada gets a belt. They didn't want to beat Kenny, so Kenny gets a belt. And it's just... What's the Kenny belt? Well, he won the, what did the continental belt? The international title.

I don't think that's a Kenny belt. Kenny won that so you can merge it with the titles. It was more a case of we haven't got any plans to put Okada in the main event scene, but we should really have Okada featured in a main event.

angle so we've created a belt for him to have that we that is considered to be in the same vein as the world title and the national championship was the exact same it felt like the same thing we have no plans to put Bobby Lashley in a world title picture with the champion

So we've created a belt that he... Honestly, by this point, I am sick to the back teeth of watching the Hurt Syndicate feud with the demands. The matches are always quite fun, but yeah, it's been three months. We know that the Hurt Syndicate... really beat them quite easily most of the time. It's not even just that it's three months. It is three months and one, two, three, four, five, six, seven matches and...

two other matches, actually, nine matches that have involved the demand costing Hurt Syndicate something. There's some, yeah, it's like a variations on these three guys versus these three guys. Sometimes it's just one of them on each side. Sometimes it's two. not believe they're still feuding so that so then you get the casino gauntlet match at full gear and that was last

Saturday. And Bobby and Shelton had won the matches on Dynamite to be the first entrance in, which in the Casino Gauntlet stipulation is the best position to be in. And those matches had... Bobby Lashley squashing Ricochet on Dynamite. Effectively. It was a five-minute match, but it was basically a squash. It was a squash. And the Shelton-Mike Bailey match had MVP on commentary.

Burying Mike Bailey. And the botched finish as well, because Shelton called the audible, but the referee didn't hear the audible. So, he... I don't know what MVP's thought process is or why someone didn't talk to him to not do this. Because Mike Bailey is one of the more exciting new guys in the company. You want to build him up, right? Like Kevin Knight in the C2. And there's this...

Thing lurking in the background. Sure, it's just internet rumours and whatever. But MVP doesn't like Mike Bailey. That the Hurt Syndicate wouldn't put over Jet Speed when they were feuding. So here's a match with Shelton and Mike Bailey. And MVP is just on commentary going...

Yeah, that holds not tight enough. You know, because Mike Bailey's gimmick is that he is a black belt in martial arts. And MVPs on the outside shoot criticising the... the MMA not MMA but sort of karate whatever holds that Mike Bailey's doing and I think it's because they do different martial arts styles and MVP thinks that his martial arts style is better than the other one but like the reason why he was doing that is the same reason why

Tommy Dreamer says stupid stuff on podcasts because it generates a headline. Yes, which is why I think that's when you have AEW management step in, Tony Khan, Bryan Danielson, whoever, just say, don't... do that. Or maybe they're encouraging him to do so. Find another way to get heat. They're doing that with MVP and Mike Bailey together to be like, this will generate some online buzz, so we should do this. I'm not advocating for that, by the way.

think that's dumb that that that is a possibility and i can't see a way where someone doesn't say to mvp after this yeah call it with that that that isn't enhancing the product that's detracting from it because i i have known commentators in the past um trying to work angles within shows

and online as well that they want to do yeah but haven't actually been like we're not doing this as an angle on the shows that we're doing but the commentator has gone like but i think this would be good and i think it's good for my character if we do this and then people have had to step in to be like Can you not do that, though?

Because it's actively hurting the product we're trying to do. Chris Childham famously did this last year on New Japan commentary. He started burying AEW, saying how they're coming in here and taking all our stars. And New Japan management sort of either...

you know, suspended him or whatever, because they're like, they're our valued business partner. We did not sign off on you saying that. However, I'm still waiting for that Booker T Corey Graves match. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it does work. But then the actual match comes along. It's the casino gauntlet at full gear. And you've got Bobby and Shelton in the ring. You're like, oh, OK, they didn't put over Swerve. They didn't put over Jet Speed. They didn't put over Brodido.

But surely they'll put over each other. This is what the whole last year has been building towards, surely. Bobby and Shelton squaring off in the ring. They never touched. I was listening to a podcast review of this yesterday where they were like, yeah, they wrestled for like 10 seconds before. I was like, buddy, if they'd have wrestled for 10 seconds, that would have been something. They didn't even do that. They circled each other. Then Ricochet came out. It's WrestleMania 20.

with Goldberg and Brock. An absolute colossal waste of time. Ricochet comes out. They beat him up. pretty easily for a while. Then I think GOA run in. They're not like the next entrance. I don't think you need to think about it if it's GOA to attack them. They weren't the next entrance. They just ran in to attack them. Yeah, like an interference spot. And they take out Bobby and Shelton with, you know...

Pretty hard whips into the steel steps, but I've seen worse. They are out for the next 15 minutes. And you get all these people enter in the casino gauntlet. And when they come back in, they barely sell for anyone. They throw everyone around. And Ricochet just gets a sneaky win, I think on Kevin Knight at the end, to become the national champion. Yeah, they sold for Claudio and Mark Davis. The beefier lads.

So, yeah, that is the story so far of the Hurt Syndicate's first year and a bit in AEW. They've literally not put over anyone. No. And there are reports. from at least one outlet. that they won't put over anyone yes reports that they refute again but like it's you can look at the track record and that's kind of what Meltzer is saying in his thing it's not a report but like just look at the show and you can see that they do not want to lose to people

or he says or tony doesn't want them to lose to people which i think is it's maybe a little from column a little from column b i don't think it is one or the other there's probably a little bit of both in there somewhere in the middle well yeah because i think if tony really believed they should lose

he would book them to lose. Or he'd take them off TV. Well, that's exactly the point I was going to make. If they really did not want to lose, he just would not book them in matches. Because that's what he did with Malakai Black and Andrade and Miro. If they're not going to play ball, Tony...

seems a bit conflict-averse. So rather than make them do something they don't want to do, he'll just stop booking them. If you don't want to be here, I'm not going to put you on TV. But, well, yeah, I don't think it's a case that... It's what her syndicate are in a weirdly weak position, though, because Miro and Andrade could go. Yeah, but I'm going to go back to WWE. I don't care, mate. I don't think MVP Bobby and Shelton. Shelton was released. MVP.

Cannot stop talking about how racist Triple H is. Hey, but then he'll do another issue. He's like, I didn't use the word racist. Allegedly. And Bobby Lashley, you know, was booked. Like nothing under Triple H. No, remember he won the Andre the Giant. Everyone was like, I wonder what Bobby's going to do at WrestleMania 39. He came out with the trophy and posed for a bit. Yeah, yeah. And that was it. It was hilarious. So it's not like...

They can go back. They were supposed to feud with The Fiend, in fairness. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like... it's a big threat that they'll go back to WWE and WWE will book them amazingly. I don't think that's a consideration. Absolutely not. So I do think Tony and AEW are in a good position to say, no, you've got to put someone over now. Which is why I think maybe it's more Tony than it is the Hurt Syndicate. Tony probably deep down knows they should have put over Brodido at least. Yeah.

But he's like, but I don't want to rock the apple cart. We've had a good year this year. There's not much backstage drama. But it was also to spin off into the FTR Brodido feud. Brodido pinning FTR. starts the story of you ruined our night at Forbidden Door that leads to them having the tag match where FTR beat them for the tag titles. I think you can book that in a much better way. You can say that about a lot of things. Well, you have Brodido pin.

the Hertz syndicate and FTR are like you didn't pin us yeah so I think you're right I think there is you might look back with the benefit of hindsight I should have had them put them over I do think though that Tony probably sees them as

These are more of my protected stars that do not lose, because when they do lose, I want it to feel like a big deal. And if you're going to do that, then you don't put them in the C2. But look at Okada. Look at Mercedes Monet. Look at Tony Storm. These are the most protected people in the company. But they lose. They know when to lose. Actually, there's a follow up bit from Meltzer where he uses Mercedes-Benz Monet as an example.

is booked incredibly strongly. She's got 14 different championships right now. She's only lost twice. But when the time is right, I've never heard of any problems with Mercedes losing. but you shouldn't be beating Mercedes often. The problem isn't... So I think it's the exact same thing, is that they have booked Mercedes to lose when the time is right. Otherwise, you keep her protected. And those wins for Statlander and Storm meant more because she was a protector.

character exactly so okada has like two losses uh brilliantly so on this episode of dynamite to carl fletcher yeah just like last year's c2 if anything weirdly I feel like the C2 or New Japan's G1, they are these weird pocket universes where, yeah, you can lose, but because it's in this... Okay, let's break from everything else. The losses...

do matter, but they don't hurt you as much. No, I'd agree. And with Okada, he needs to be in the C2 stars. Apparently he's defending his continental championship that isn't unified anymore. Question mark.

I've got such a big question to ask about that when we get into the Dynamite review. So he has to be in there for the Continental Championship reasons, but also his gimmick is, I'm the greatest tournament wrestler of all time. He's currently tied, needs to be in this one to break that record. So you have to put him...

in the c2 that makes complete sense great story so i you know i think obviously the national championship should not be a thing like one of the gimmicks of the national championship supposedly is it's going to be defended around loads of other uh promotions and countries i've heard that i think about every other single belt they've introduced go back three years or whatever it was

That was the same speech he gave about the international title, then the All-Atlantic Championship. And for the first few weeks of it, you had videos of PAC showing up at shows and defending the title around the country. And then they just stopped doing it. And then it just became another belt in the country. I have got zero faith that this national championship will have the absolute moniker they put around this, that it's going to be defended in multiple championships around the world.

I don't buy it. It will with Ricochet for the next month. He'll do a few shows and we'll get a few clips of it. But as soon as Bobby wins that title, because I believe that is imminent, he's not going to go to indie shows. If he is, it will be one. in three months. Yeah, because he's done one indie show in France, I think, since he's gone to AEW. So yeah, about the C2 and Bobby not being in the C2.

Look, if we're booking AEW properly, the national championship is not added. It is surplus to requirements, this belt. And Bobby, as you can see, because he was in the mix in that number one contenders... match for the world title you know he is a guy who hasn't lost he hasn't lost in aw he's got a win over swerve strickland he's a former tag team champion he should be going for top belts but they're not booking him in them because I guess they don't want him to lose.

or he doesn't want to lose. I don't really care about the reason at this point. I care about how it's affecting the on-screen product and storylines, because it's weird that he isn't in one of these main positions. So if he's not going for the world title, because...

that's Hangman and it's Swerve and it's Joe, then you've got to put him in the C2. I disagree. Absolutely disagree. I wouldn't put Mercedes in the C2. If you did a women's version of the C2, I would not put Mercedes in the C2. She was literally just in the tag team tournament. Yeah, and did she take the pin? No. No, exactly, because she is the protected star of that tag act. So I would not put her in the C2 where you have to lose a bunch of matches. It works with Okada.

That is his current gimmick. I'm a tournament wrestler. And you're right. The losses that he has there is actually to create the sort of shock value of Carl Flitch gets the win over Ocado in the first match. Works brilliantly there. You don't do it with Mercedes and you don't do it with Bobby Lashley. And if I can...

I said earlier, I will invoke the name Stone Cold Steve Austin because Stone Cold Steve Austin was booked to lose against Brock Lesnar in a King of the Ring qualifying match. And he said, that doesn't work for me, brother. Why would you not? try and protect me more as a character, build up to a match between me and Brock, and then I can lose that match, and then we'll do something else down the line. And then he takes his ball and he goes home.

which he doesn't really do. He just walks out and then they create the line. He took his ball and went home. But there is a harken back to the day of when wrestlers were more protective of their wins and losses. And I think that Austin was right. He was right to say, I should not just be losing to Brock.

a King of the Ring qualifying match that you have not advertised ahead of time. And I think it's the same going to be applied to Mercedes and Lashley being in a C2 here. Well, I think we are probably actually agreeing because I... I'm not saying Bobby goes into this E2 undefeated. I think you should have already booked him to do that. Like one year in to Bobby Lashley's reign and being in AEW, that's when he puts someone over. He should have already...

put over a Brodido. He should have lost all of a sudden to Mike Bailey and he's furious. Or Toa Leona. Toa Leona was genuinely getting a bit of a rub there, but I feel like he's going to fall back down the card, unfortunately. And then when you go into the C2, then he can... take one shot loss just like a car you know I forgot that Carl Fletcher beat Okada in last year's C2 I thought he was undefeated until they brought it up at the start of this match yeah

Which is really good. I think that's a wonderful little bit of storytelling within there. That's what I'm saying about these tournaments. They do feel like a little pocket bit. They're very, very... consequential but in a way that doesn't affect the overall strength of a character but if you sorry i don't want to cut you off there but if your story with bobby lashley is he has never been pinned within aew then you don't want his first pin for loss to just be within

the C2 I just said his first pinfall loss would have been before that but what's a pinfall loss if your whole gimmick is he's not been pinned in AEW does that mean more after two months or does it mean more after two years What about somewhere in between? What about one year like I'm saying? I agree with you, but clearly they're going for the two-year model.

So what is the payoff to this? I'll tell you what the payoff is. It's pinning Crimson for the first time in TNA, where he's on his undefeated streak.

Doesn't mean anything. No one cares about Crimson undefeated. They don't look at it the same as Goldberg. But the idea was, well, we've got to try. And we've done this thing and we're telling you that it means a lot. But I don't think it's actually going to mean much of a damn when it actually does happen.

But I think that is what they're doing. They're trying to create this aura of Bobby Lashley, never pinned, never submitted in AEW, and then someone finally gets a pin over him in two years' time. I don't think it's going to get that person over. I don't think it's going to get Lashley under. But that is the model that they're trying to do. Well, I disagree with it. Let us know what you think. I did that thing again. I disagree. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with that.

um the tony khan's potential thought for the record as well i do too yes because that is why that's why i'm saying i don't think it will actually mean anything when someone does eventually beat them i don't think actually it would have meant anything if brodido beat them

If Brodino had pinned them at Forbidden Door, I don't think it would have meant anything. I think the one to have done it with was Jet Speed. It was. Because they were telling that story that you got so behind, because that was the story they were telling. But I was just more cynical. I was like...

No, they're going to win. You are more cynical, but you are also right. But yeah, let us know down in the comments what you think about the Bobby Lashley problem. How would you pay it off? Would you ever pay it off? Help. The holidays are about family and quality time, right? But while we're carving roast beef, our dogs are stuck with dry kibble mystery meat. And yes, they notice. It's time to make the switch to Sundays. Sundays is clean.

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It's Survivor Series War Games. Don't know if we've mentioned that already on Saturday and we'll be here on Sunday with the WrestleTalk podcast review of it. But you can get your thoughts in. We're not doing super chats and chat gables or whatever they're called because these are pre-recorded for the moment. So if you are a patron at patreon.com forward slash WrestleTalk, as soon as Survivor Series is over, a post will go up asking...

for your thoughts. So get your thoughts in and then let like the six hours after that goes up and we will read out the best ones on the podcast. Yeah, I've got it scheduled to go up when I... I think Survivor Series will end. So it starts at 1 a.m. our time. So I've set it to go, the poster go live at half past three, which is two and a half hours. Actually, I might have set it for 4 a.m. I think four is safe. Gone for a three hour runtime.

It's the best guess. So if it's not there the second after it's finished, it'll be there within the hour. There's four matches. There's four matches. How many adverts can there be? But also, this isn't our only Patreon. We've also got patreon.com forward slash cutscene. That's right. On Wednesday, we released our most recent episode of Worst Movie Ever, where we went through black.

Adam. Yeah. With an intro that some are saying is one of your all-time best. And some are saying I should be cancelled for it. One comment said it was a hate crime. And yeah, it's weird. It does feel like a hate crime. You said it, and I was like, man, I'm not sure about this one. I wouldn't commit me recording to that on the internet in perpetuity. But yeah, when you think about it...

It is definitely not a racist intro. It's not. It's not a racist intro. He's called Black Adam. He's called Black Adam. It rhymes with an Eminem song. so we review that over on cutscene and over on our patreon patreon.com forward slash cutscene we do a full scene by scene breakdown of the movie the podcast runs about four and a half hours in total and we had a really fun time going through

The Rock basically saying, like, can you say a line that will make me sound cool? Yeah, The Rock's approach to producing this movie was, how can it make me look strong? Because I'm trying to build myself up for a match against Superman. that no one has asked for. Well, no, The Rock kept telling me the fans want it. The fans have been dying to see this showdown. The fans have been dying for Cavill to come back as Superman. We're going to all of that. How The Rock tried to take over the DCU.

And failed. And essentially, what led to him going back to WWE. So what's going on with these title belts? So there's a Continental Classic. And as we all know, every year, the Continental Classic title is on the line in the tournament. But we got rid of that belt. We unified it with another title to create the unified championship. And Don Callis said on Full Gear, Okada will be defending his continental championship in the C2. And genuinely, I thought he misspoke.

Because I was like, well, that doesn't make any sense because that belt's unified now. But then Okada comes down to the ring and he's only wearing his international championship because...

They said he's had to relinquish the Continental Championship because it's up within this tournament. So he still has one of the championships. Yeah, he's got the International Championship still. That's not on the line in this tournament. So is the Continental... championship currently vacant or is it some kind of schrodinger's championship that depends on when you look at it well whoever wins this tournament will win the continental championship which then means they are the ununified

championships then and we just go back to having multiple singles titles i mean what it tells me is a card is winning this tournament and it's just going to have the unified championship again Okay, the unification of the AEW content. So he's currently in... Let's have a look. Yeah, the current champion of the international championship is Okada. Yeah, at all in. Ah, this is confusing.

And he came out with the international championship on this show in the opening match. And they said that's because he's had to... give up not give up but he's had to hand over the continental championship because that is on the line within this tournament do you remember the international championships like first gimmick in 2022 when it was the inaugural

Champion was crowned. The All-Atlantic Championship. Was it called the All-Atlantic Championship? The International Championship, I believe, was originally the All-Atlantic Championship.

PAC won at the first forbidden door. It was, you're right. For a year, it was the All-Atlantic Championship. Then it became the International Championship, which says 2023 until present. Yeah, because I can't... Because it's still... in operation but it's it's now the unified championship in the same way the lineage of the universal championship still exists but it is now part of the undisputed wwe championship with the wwe championship

But if Cody... Cody only defends one belt. Yeah, because when you unify a belt, you only have one belt now. So that is what WWE have done. They had two world titles. and they merged them into one world title, and then a year later introduced another world title. I'm trying to think how it works in boxing, because when Tyson Fury and Usec had their fight, that was with all the boxing promotions belts on the line? I was like...

Kurt Angle versus Samoa Jones. Yeah, it was. Shopping trolley full of belts they came out with. But they didn't... It was billed as like all the titles will be unified or maybe it was more there will be an undisputed champion.

But as soon as Usec won it, he had to vacate one of the belts because there's a rule between all the federations that you can't hold all the belts. What a cool way to promote a show. Boxing's a mess. Yeah. So this is... they had it they had it sorted out you unified these titles

And literally introduced a brand new belt called the Unified Championship that was both of those belts combined. Then the second... And my first thought was, well, this clears up the C2 a lot as well. Yeah. Because one of the... dumb things about the C2 is that it's for a f***ing belt that then is defended across the year but then is up in a tournament. Why isn't this just for a trophy?

Why don't you just, like the G1, get a world title shot at the end of all of this? It should be the main event of Revolution is decided by the winner of the C2. It is... that this is for a belt. And let's not forget, the only reason this had a belt on is so Eddie Kingston would be a Triple Crown champion at the end of it. It's the only reason the stinking belt exists in the first place. And it's...

And so I was like, okay, now you unify the title. That cleans up the C2. And then they've just gone and just like...

just messed up the room again after you spent hours tidying it up because your mum was having a go at you for your room being untidy. You went in there and you started throwing your clothes all over the place and now it's a mess again. Maybe Tony Khan being the best boss is... a good thing he's like yeah you won't lose bobby yeah you can have a title eddie and all these nice decisions have consequences consequences and it makes this so look up front

loved this episode of dynamite yeah because it's based around the c2 and i love the c2 but at the end of the c2 there's just these stupid questions like what is this belt why is this now what and then at the start of this i'm like well why are there now three mid four mid-card titles. There are four mid-card championships in AEW at the moment. So TNT is...

All Atlantic? International? There's a continental title, which is up for grabs, and the new national championship that Ricochet has. We have four mid-card titles in this company. And I think at least two of them... should supposedly be defended around the world. The original Eddie Kingston one as well, that was a unification. was it like it was the triple crown championship they called him the triple crown champion because he was that the ring of honor champion

And a New Japan Strong champion, maybe? And a New Japan Strong champion, probably, yeah. Which he then loses to Gabe Kidney got injured. Well, should we park? Should we put this to one side? Because it is annoying. I don't know if I can. Well, we've got to talk about the rest of the episode. It was Kusuchika Okada versus Kyle Fletcher in a Gold League match. And they had an awesome match. This is the first Okada match I've watched since...

watching Radiohead on Monday. Oh, did I mention that? I went to see Radiohead. They were great. But you've always said to me, Paranoid Android, which is a very long song by Radiohead that has various movements, but it all builds to this sick... kickoff guitar solo. And you're always like, the thing is, you just want the end bit. Because the preceding four minutes are kind of dreary. It's that movement in particular, I think is...

Yes, that's the Okada movement. But what you need in an Okada match, like the 15 minutes at the start aren't just filler. They're building the pace. So when it suddenly kicks into gear, in like the great bit when Okada and Fletcher were just out of nowhere, boom, reversal, reversal, we're at Tombstone, powerbomb, blah, blah, blah. It feels more impactful. So yeah, when I was watching this and the 15-minute... of really good, solid wrestling, but nothing mind-blowing.

I was like, this is the start of Paranoid Andrew. So yeah, I agree with you. And I say, it's not the full, because the start of Paranoid Andrew is very lovely. It is that final movement before the outro, when it's the come on rain down portion of it. Thank you for that. But I loved this match. And I loved that Carl Fletcher got the win because this is the first match of this year's C2 and you've opened with one of your very protected wrestlers in Okada taking a loss here.

in a real surprise upset that shouldn't be that much of a surprise. Fletcher beat him in last year's C2 as well. But you've opened this up with a shock win. And then you had another shock win later on in this show that that was based more around storyline and selling from a previous match. I thought this was a great way to kick this off. Yeah, not just the sort of tournament favorite, the defending champion with whatever.

Belt rules exist there. It's interesting because it is a heel versus heel match. This is a Don Callis family. presentation with Don on commentary, who was great. He was like, look, these two guys in the ring, we've got the best odds out of anyone to win the title. I love, I've never really seen another wrestling faction.

booked like don's yeah what i love about as well is that he almost treats it like it's a separate not a separate promotion per se but when this opening is like two of the greatest wrestlers on the planet brought to you by the don callis family he's more like uh you know uh

A boxing promoter. Well, these are guys who fight out of my company, like I promote their fights. Yeah. And sometimes they'll fight each other. It doesn't matter because I get the house. He doesn't care who wins. No. He just wants a Don Callis family member to win. And Okada at the end here is Okada.

Kyle Fletcher gets the win with the roll-up. He reverses the Rainmaker to get it. Brilliant final five minutes of this match I thought was so, so great. And at the end of it, Okada shakes the hand of Kyle Fletcher. And my first thought was, if that had been Takeshita...

that had pinned you here in the C2, would not have been the same reaction from Okada. Well, it's also that it was such a great spot in the end, in the post-match, because Okada, unsurprisingly, although it has surprised me and everyone else, is a fantastic, physically comedic performer. And you're like, oh, okay, yeah, he's a great in-ring wrestler with pacing and timing. Oh, yeah, all those things can translate to physical comedy. And just the way he went in for that handshake.

but there is a brief moment where it looks like he's going for the middle finger, but never enough to make Kyle annoyed, but we all got it. I just, Okada, after what was... It'd be interesting to go back and watch the first three months of Okada when we were all like, what is this? Because maybe it was our fault. Maybe Okada was this fully realised new character, but we were all still playing catch-up.

Yeah. And I think you and I were very much on the it's three star Okada train because I saw the tail end of his run in New Japan Pro Wrestling as well, where it was like, he's phoning this in now. And then he got to AEW and I was like, oh, no, is he just going to phone in here as well until you do a big show with it? Kenny Omega I think maybe I was just wrong all the time and he actually has just been great from day one I love the heel turn

Also in the match, because it was heel versus heel, obviously. So they worked it very smartly where Fletcher was sort of the underdog in this. Okada was working him over. And Okada hits... Did he push the referee into the ropes at one point? Fletcher's on the top rope and it dicks him on the turnbuckle. And Okada's like, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean it. But he also smiles right after he did it.

Just a great heel character. It's like when he hit that Rainmaker on Takeshita. I was like, oh no. It's got that smirk on his face. What I love about this, not just the booking of, you know, the... the tournament favourite and champion just took a loss and Carl Fletch. This is the long-term story that Fletch beat him last year. It's just the C2. And it feels like it's so momentous. And I...

I devoured, like my eyes were just hungry for the other matches on this. I very rarely watch a full collision. I'm going to watch all the matches, all the Blue League matches on the Thanksgiving collision, which has gone out already. as we're recording this. Probably with tapes at the same fair, right? Yeah, probably. And I think it goes out on Thanksgiving evening to not go against Survivor Series. It's going to get killed regardless!

You are. You're a turkey no matter which day you're going out, bud. But love the sea too. Yeah, me too. it might just be because we've just watched Fantastic Four for our next episode of Worst Movie Ever but I was smelling a reshoot here because Lexi was interviewing Kenny Omega and I was like this was done at full gear

This isn't live at Dynamite. Kenny Omega comes out. Let's go see the big guy. Kenny Omega walks out of his dressing room because they're like, we're going to throw to Lexi Nair now who's trying to get a word with Kenny Omega. And he comes out very close. nearly having just wrestled a match. He's got like welts on his chest and stuff like this was at full gear you lying bastards.

but he was um i've not been a model friend to the bucks but i've also been fooled by don callous in the past so i wanted to reach out an olive branch to them can't reveal if we are the Elites back together or not. And then he goes back into his locker room. And Lexi Nair stands there, smiling, smiling politely, and then the Bucks leave the locker room as well. So they're probably together. Yeah. How are you feeling about her? The Elite. They're back.

Got the exact same thing. So it's because I was listening to a podcast that was reviewing Full Gear and he was like, I don't know if I'm vibing with the Elite. I don't know if I wasn't there for the million, but was anyone watching this and they fist pumped the air when the Elite got back together again? you know for like the 25th time whatever it feels like

Mark Briscoe cut a promo from Full Gear. They were open about that one. And you've talked about family, the conglomeration stuff. Great promo from Mark. Very nice. Very different from a usual Mark conglomeration, jokey promo, word of the day stuff. This is... talking like a normal human being and just saying he did it for his family and he points.

points up there for jay so lovely uh the babies of wrath then beat the sisters of sin in the women's tag title tournament to advance to the finals decent enough match uh will have got the women the doctor bomb yep uh julia hart hit a moonsault at one point. went so far around she just landed on her feet and then was like i was meant to hit that and did a splash yeah which could just be an awesome move no no it wouldn't no it would not i've got those mascara dorada doing that role

in the match with Jon Moxley when he rolled, then stopped, then did another move. It's good. It's the Entrade moonsault. Other moonsault. Yeah. But that, at least, is in one fluid motion. You're pitching to do a moonsault and stop all momentum to do a smaller moon. And then face plot, yeah.

We had Tony Schiavone in the ring to interview Samoa Joe. And I was like, oh, Tony, I would not want to be in your shoes to do this one, mate. Particularly you being Tony Schiavone. And Joe, of course, sends Schiavone out of the ring. And then they cut to the screen and a car arrives and Swerve gets out of that car and he starts walking towards the ring and Hangman Page walks alongside him. It was cool. It was cool.

And the dojo guys then come out to surround the ring and we get a video of, Samojo then throws to a video of Hook's return to the ops. Here's how I did it. Yeah. Sort of explaining Hook's return and teaming with Kingston. Yeah.

all part of the plan and then hook cuts a quick promo when he comes out and then swerve and hangman come down they beat up the dojo lads and they hang a pair of them while staring at samoa joe likely leading to that triple threat that we talked about on the last show yeah when hangman uh came through the crowd. He was by the bar and he just necked a drink. It was awesome. Both dressed in black. So it's kind of like, yeah, we're going to...

We're sickos. We're going to come for you, Joe. Yeah, I'm into this. This feels like this was such a great three-way feud in, was it the start of 2024? I think so. And Hook was a part of that as well. I just hope Hook comes out of this looking good. Yes, I hope he does too. Someone said recently, actually, that...

Joe, the idea of Joe winning the belt, and some people were like, why are you giving the title to Smo Joey, taking off of Hangman Page? And someone pointed out, I was like, I mean, Joe's probably going to be retiring some, you know, I think he has said, like, he might be in one of his last contract years. So, like, it's kind of nice for him to be able to have one. last world title run within within that yeah it's nice again

At the expense of Hangman's four-month title reign, don't know. Maybe, but I would say Hangman came out here. He did not feel under. He felt, if anything, probably more over because this crowd, Swerve's just made his big return, but this crowd wanted to see Hangman pay. and chant cowboy ass it was a bold creative decision and i think even on our full gear review we said we can see both sides but the follow-up will be key yeah so hopefully they've got and maybe hangman is better as a chaser

We had a Moxley promo from Full Gear. It's that one that we talked about in the Full Gear review show as well, where he's there being like, yeah, but who's the real winner? Because I'm still standing and Kyle O'Reilly's gone to the hospital. while the other members of the Death Riders are staring daggers into him. And Claudio, I think Claudio's performance in all of this is so good. Have you seen the clip from Full Gear?

when Moxley afterwards and he's walking out and Yuta and Garcia look to Claudio and Claudio gives them the nod. for them to leave. They didn't wait for permission from Moxley. They looked at Claudio as the potential new leader. As a new alpha. Oh, I loved him. And that takes us into Jon Moxley versus Mascara Dorada in the Blue League.

great match these two had and the the dorada role notwithstanding which you know just stopped all the momentum that he had uh but moxie did like a shield style dive and it was like oh yeah there he is he's in there And he got the win with the bulldog choke after reversing a shooting style press and immediately got some. And like, it starts posing with the biceps and everything. And it was like that one win.

All of the confidence rushed right back to him. He's like, I'm back. I'm back. I'm John Moxley and I'm back again. It still feels performative though, doesn't it? It does, doesn't it? He's the best character in AEW. Probably all of... the main promotion wrestling now. I can't believe it. He is so compelling to watch. And when anyone gets a submission on him, like Dorada got an arm bar in this match, the crowd go crazy.

It is a genius move that he's managed to make the crowd work. It's like long-term psychology. It's really masterful what he's done. And to show how easily rattled he can get, Tony Storm comes out. effectively to cut promo on marina shabir and announce what their stipulation is for next week but moxie was like afraid and didn't want to listen to what she had to say in case because she was saying mean things about him because it was it was affecting him mentally uh but she announced that next week

She's not got a Christmas present for Hermina just yet, so she's going to give her lover something that she's always wanted, a deathmatch. Hardcore holiday deathmatch. I want Christmas trees. I want bulb. I want a spot. where people stamp on the baubles yeah i want a little train set that is set up and it it like i don't know drives a spike into someone

I think that Marina Shafir will be stomped into baubles because she's got bare feet. It's like Home Alone style. Yeah, you're right. And I can see them doing the Taipei Deaths match. the hands in the glass and you pull out broken baubles oh yeah you just do home alone that's a great idea paint cans this is great

Renee interviewed Chris Statlander. She is the only woman in AEW to have been both TBS and Women's World Champion. Also is the only woman in AEW to have pinned both Toni Storm and Mercedes-Benz. It's impressive, isn't it? And she said that I'm not just going to challenge the AEW roster, but all women in the industry who's coming with me into the future, which made it sound like someone who's not signed with AEW will.

be her next feud. Lacey Lane, she's just signed with the company. We had another Gold League match as Darby Allin took on Kevin Knight. I was fully expecting Darby to get the win here, but Kevin Knight got the win with a coast-to-coast and a UFO splash. Darby selling the effects of Sting's baseball bat attack that he got from Pack from Full Gear. And the rest. And the last three months. I think, you know, I run hot and cold on Darby. He's not really a character I vibe with.

I thought he was really good at selling here from the outset. And he doesn't lose anything through losing this match. No. Again, the C2, it's in its own little pocket universe. The normal rules don't apply. accumulated damage and all that stuff. So yeah, when he lost, I was more like, wow, great win for Kevin Knight. Shame for Darby that he came into this tournament already beaten to shreds. Yeah.

FTR cut a promo about winning the tag team titles. They'll be getting a full-on promo on the Collision show. And then Eddie cut a promo about Hook, which he doesn't really want to talk about. And then he... I love that Eddie Kingston. He's like, look, I'm not in line for the world title. I'm not in there with Hank Matt and Paige and Swerve Strickland. But if I beat Shibata...

then maybe I could be within the conversation. So Shibata, I'll see you at Collision. I hope that's a good match. You know, it's already happened probably as you're watching this. But Eddie Kingston has been quite... Yeah, he doesn't feel 100% since he's returned. He's been off a step. We love him. He's one of my favourite wrestlers of all time.

So him versus Shibata, that feels like a tailor-made Eddie match. So I really hope it's good. And our main event was Claudio Castagnoli taking on Orange Cassidy in the Blue League. And Orange Cassidy... asked tony khan to have this match first within the c2 uh because he was looking to get revenge for um who was it You wanted to get revenge on the Death Riders. I can't remember who for now. Some conglomeration.

Either way, he did not get the win here. Claudio Castagnoli got a very big win over Orange Cassidy with the pop-up uppercuts. Yeah, mostly dominated him. Cassidy had his comeback spots, but Claudio was just like swinging him into the barricade, ragdolling him.

ragdolling him around for a long sequence picking him up by the belt and stuff but yeah pop up uppercut and then so that means that he and moxley are now top of the blue league and i was like that's going to be the last match of the blue league And it's happening next week. And I'm so excited to see what happens in that match. Well, it could be both. You know, they could have that match. Well, they will have that match next week. And then they could win it and be the semifinals.

Like if they're one and two at the top. I don't think they will because I think it'll be Okada and Takeshita at the top. Are they in the same? No, they're not. But like, I think that's the finals. I think it's Okada versus Takeshita at World's End. This is another thing about the C2. There's so many good stories going on that you could make a real, legit argument for everyone apart from Mascara Dorado and Kevin Knight. And Roderick Strong.

Would also make a big pitch to Tony, if you are watching. You probably are. We're the best podcast out there. Please. give kyle fletcher a unified championship match against okada because you pinned him within the c2 yes good point there needs to be some level of stakes within there uh but yeah i thought it was a really good and then the show ended i thought in a bit of a lame way

Because the thing I was into was the Death Riders and it being Claudio and Mox. And Mox comes out and again, he's posing with the biceps and stuff. And I was like, I want to see the showdown, the tent stare down between Mox and Claudio. But then a bunch of people from both leagues just ran down and I had a brawl. Yeah, yeah. And Okada watched it all from the ramp. I thought I was a bit lame. The only reason I can think of is if they're saving that Claudio Mox proper face-to-face.

for if they do meet in the semis. Which, yeah, I agree with you. But this, for me, is not what the C2 is about. Just ending with a wild brawl. Yeah, yeah, a little bit weird. Yeah, it's not... I don't think it's in the spirit of the tournament. But yeah, overall though, because it was so C2 focused, belt nonsense aside, awesome episode. Yeah, it was a really good episode. We've got comments from last week.

where we spoke about, is Vince McMahon going to come back to WWE and all that jazz? Donkey Sarasarex writes, I hope Vince buys a second or third row ticket like Enzo Amore did a few years ago. Oh, man, that'd be so funny. That was at Survivor.

of a series wasn't it didn't he walk into the hard cam shot hard cam shot yeah and he was in his like hoodie face mask thing uh daniel clark writes vince mcmahon will definitely announce welcome to wrestlemania at Saudi mania I mean it makes sense man I mean they he won't be booed as much over there if at all and also it's in like not next year it's the year after plenty of time for him to be making his return to TV well we had one

Fantasy booking is the wrong name for it. Worst timeline booking, where Vince is tested on screen at Cena's retirement. He's maybe used more at the Royal Rumble. Because that's in Saudi in January. It's true. And then, yeah, you could... Yeah, by 2027, he's having a match. And then there was another comment, top, top voted comment. Is this, from Peter Zeke, is this the most authentic friendship on YouTube? I mean. And then people speculate.

So Multiclass Geek writes, Ollie and Luke have been legit friends for decades, and it shows. Chris Thompson writes, Friendships are always authentic when you're not motivated by money or control. Goddess of Crows? Nah. It's just a podcast of convenience.

Leo Cross. Mate, this is a podcast of convenience. We've been riding this for a while now. We are nearing... Next year, actually, will be 10 years that you and I have been podding as a duo. But we're now... longer if you take all the the movie ones before well that's what i was gonna say so when it's just been me and you as a as a pair that's with next year's our 10 year anniversary of doing that it might be 11 years actually um but our first one together was in 20

16? Well, no, no, no. Oh, first ever one. Yeah, it was reviewing Seven Psychopaths whenever that film came out. Do you want to have a look? And I'll keep reading. Leo Cross writes, I think they genuinely hate each other. You can tell Luke's love for Steiner maths has left a scar on their relationship. 2012. You and I have been putting together since 2012. Too long.

And Zergi writes, well, Nikki Bella and Stephanie Vaquer had a stronger and more meaningful friendship. But we know what happened there. I know. I'm just waiting for you to eventually turn your back on me and reveal your heel boobs. The boobs have turned heel. So, yeah, recommendations. Tell me why it's Silly Goose.

I am wearing my Silly Goose t-shirt. Yeah, you went to go see Radiohead at the O2 and you spent loads of money getting your seats right at the back, right up against the wall. I went to go see Silly Goose play at... a pub in shoreditch and it cost me 15 quid and it was an

awesome awesome evening uh silly goose they're a band of america uh who their central gimmick used to be they're a bit of a guerrilla music style band they're a new metal band they're rap rock they're bringing it back very much influenced by them biscuit and and that sort of ilk.

They're awesome, if you like that sort of thing, which I do. But their gimmick used to be that their tours would be following other bands doing tours around America, and they would just drive a flatbed truck to those locations and play a gig in the parking lot.

and the lead singer's been like a rest of you know they're deserving of peace and all that sort of stuff it's awesome they're a really fun band it was a great night um and yeah i'd recommend they've released a new album this year keys to the city came out like a couple of months ago if you're into that style of music it's

A superb record. If you get the chance to see them live when they're doing another tour in the US next year, go and see them. You'll have a great, great time. But my other recommendation was the band that was on first on that night. because you didn't stay for the main event no i did not i was there to see silly and then i left let me tell you bud i bought a ticket and then it was at seven o'clock

And on my way there, found out on a seven's actually just for sort of like there's a bit of a meet and greet beforehand. The first band's not until eight. And I text my wife and I was like, the first band is on at eight o'clock. I'm I'm worried. Because I'm, you know, I'm not a spring chicken anymore. Eight o'clock is when the first band is on. On a Tuesday. On a Wednesday night. Oh, no, it was Tuesday night. I was a bit worried that it was going to be a late one.

Because my worry was they were going to be the third band on. And I'm there doing the maths in my head being like, man, they might not be on until like quarter ten. And that means that the show's going to finish at half ten. And then I've got to try and get to London Bridge and get home and stuff. In the end, the first band were on at eight. Silly Goose were on at quarter to nine. I was like, get in. This is great. They finished at like 20 to 10. I was like...

I'm going home. Lovely stuff. And I got home at a lovely, reasonable hour because I'm cool like that. But the first band that was on was a band called Sweet Cheeks. now i feel like there's going to be a hard recommendation for me to do because i don't know where you find their music because i've looked there are like four bands on spotify you are so cool there are like four bands on there and none of them are them

And I then went on to their Instagram and there's no links to a Spotify or anything like that. I think, and this might make me sound a million years old, I think their music is on TikTok. Wow. But I don't know because I don't have that platform. They didn't have a QR code. No, they didn't have any of that. Is this you asking the SWAT nation to help you find Sweet Cheeks? I mean, I was going to message them to be like, where do I find your music? Does it even exist?

in a recorded form. They are a... it's i suppose you couldn't say it's new metal it's quite it's very new metal-y they've got like a song that's very limp biscuit then a song that was very system of a down they've got a very like new metal aura to them with kawaii girl pop j-pop k-pop lyrics nice and vocals

complete with two dancers behind their lead singer doing like J-pop, K-pop choreographed routines while it was on. And you were the first person I thought of because I was like, Oli will love this. I love stupid performance aspects of live bands. Actually, I've got a video I might be able to. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you, you didn't have that. Radiohead. Radio did not have backing dancers. Yeah. Let's give our hands a little bit.

Luke is showing me a clip from his phone. So there's like six at seven of them on stage. And yeah, they're doing like a K-pop Demon Hunters clapping intro with their backs to the audience. And yeah, they're doing a little dance routine. Sort of Sisters of Sin deadpan style. Looks fun. Honestly, I don't... great time i had no expectation and i had a really good time watching them so if you're in london and you see sweet cheeks are on a bill somewhere go and check them out any four of them

Any of the four versions of Sweet Cheeks you can find. Well, yeah, I mean, two of them I checked out, I was not into. But them I thought were pretty good. Is your recommendation Radiohead? I guess it's got to be right. Radiohead. Yeah, they're pretty good. You can't go see them. because all the tickets are sold out. I don't know. If no one's listened to Radiohead before, what are you doing? Listen to the bands. OK Computer is probably the most...

complete album? I think the Benz is. I was saying to Dan Frye. They've got like four different complete albums. I was saying to Dan Frye in the office because I saw him listening to the Benz because he went with you to the gig and I saw him listening to the Benz and I said that is a 10 out of 10.

perfect no notes album you know what though listening to it back because they go down a very electronic route later on in their career it was interesting because it was it felt like seeing three different bands because they've had so many different musical styles that they are the best at. The Benz is sort of the, it's the very embryonic, we've got a guitar, sort of indie ballads. Yeah, just.

Doesn't sound like anything that's on Kid A. Kid A is a different band. They played Just. I was so happy. Did they play Creep? No, they never play Creep. I saw them play Creep at Glastonbury. I saw them play Creep at Reading Festival when they headlined there in 2009?

Yeah, they've stopped doing it now. And I think they'd stopped doing it prior to that as well because everyone there was like, well, they're not going to play Creep. And then they opened with Creep. Wow. And it was awesome because the crowd went absolutely apesbit for it. I feel like they do not care about Pablo Honey. which is their first album.

Because it's got creep. It's got anyone can play guitar. When we were walking out afterwards, we were just chatting. Oh, yeah, no, nothing from Pablo Honey. No one cares. But, you know, people would like to hear creep, of course. And this girl just started chatting to us, being like, oh, my God. Yeah, I love Pablo Honey. She was like 12. There was this weird... You're either a 35-year-old plus man or a gal between the ages of 15 and 22. Is that TikTok?

I don't know. I don't know. There was a lot of people who have brought their kids. I feel like that's a TikTok thing. Right. Because like Deftones were a big band. They were a band in the 90s that had quite some big success in the 90s. They are now a band that can do arena tours. because tiktok have discovered them and teenagers are now finding them through tiktok whatever it is i am a gatekeeper and

And if you start telling me as like an early 20 year old, why didn't they play Pablo honey? Well, she literally said this. Why didn't they play vegetables? I would have loved to have heard vegetables. I said. I didn't say this to him. I've not thought about vegetables in 25 years. Not a song, not as a food substance. That is an insane take. When they didn't play the literal song, The Benz.

street spirit and you're sitting there like where's vegetables the album track from the album they kind of disown yeah Anyway, yeah, if you like indie acoustic music, go listen to The Benz. If you like sort of darker... indie piano sort of music go listen to OK Computer if you like electronic music go listen to Kid A if you like just a perfect fusion of dance electronica and sad pianos

Go listen to Him Rainbows. They've made four of the best albums of all time. In different styles. They're like the Stanley Kubrick of bands. They are. If you want to feel four different variations of sad. Then, man, you've got... Oh, there is a level of sad for you to find with a Radiohead album. Yeah, yeah. But it's the sort of sad that...

If you're with the right people, it becomes happy. Because sadness shared does weirdly have a joyful aspect to it. But it was great. So yeah, if you haven't listened to Radiohead, which... considering you're listening to us, is probably none of you. So you know what? My recommendation is re-listen to Radiohead. I'd say the Benz in particular. Yeah.

You would say. You're a basic bitch. You're a basic Bens. I think OK Computer has got a little bit more of a... That's a bigger ask. I think OK Computer is a better listen to if The Bens is your introduction. Don't be a coward. Kid A. Go straight into Kid A. Do not start with Kid A. Kid A is a bad recommendation. One sitting, because it's meant to be enjoyed as one complete experience. It's not one to put on a playlist.

Like certain tracks on a playlist. National Anthem, Idiotech. It's like Lily Allen's new album. That is not designed for tracks to be listened to on a playlist. That is an album. It's a story. It's a story. You need to do that from start to finish. Dojo. Is there a way that we can link the Lily Allen? Do the ops have a dojo? Or is it? A pussy palace. Maybe it's just a dojo. Dojo. dojo the ops dojo or the pussy palace the ops have a pussy palace and that's where all their men come from

No, it's a dojo. It's a dojo hangman page. It's cool, all right. It's fine. I hope next week. when Hangman Page or Swerve cut a promo. I don't feel like it's Swerve's thing, but I think Hangman could say Dojo. Looks more like a pussy palace to me. That is a killer, relevant line you can deliver. That is a millennial line right there. Yeah, okay.

Well, thank you very much for joining us. We will be back on Sunday, so make sure you're subscribed for that. And, of course, go over to patreon.com forward slash WrestleTalk, where you can watch tables, lists and chairs, the worst John Cena matches with Luke and I and Santi Zap. and our continuing series on TNA's Aces and Aids storyline. And of course, you can also get your chats in for the podcast review of Whore Games. But for now, I've been Oli Davis. This has been Luke Owen, DAD.

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