Hello and welcome to World Business Report here on the BBC World Service. I'm Rahul Tandon. Thank you so much for joining us. We're going to guide you through what's been another busy day when it comes to tariffs and the internet. Well, it's got a memory problem. When we looked at this in the context of social media, we found that about one in five tweets are no longer available even a few months after they're posted. But you know.
what we're going to start the programme talking about. Once again, it's tariffs. So what has happened on Wednesday? Well, Canada... has announced reciprocal levies on more than $20 million worth of US goods after Washington imposed 25% tariffs on all steel and aluminium imports. Here's Canada's Foreign Minister, Melanie Jolly. Canada is not the one driving up the cost of your groceries or of your gasoline or any of your construction. Canada is not the one putting your jobs at risk.
Canada is not the one that is ultimately starting this war. President Trump's tariffs against you are causing that. And there are no winners in a trade war. That move came after similar retaliatory measures from the EU. It's imposing counter-tariffs and more than $28 billion worth of US goods from next month. That's matching the US tariffs on European exports.
and will take effect in April, which leaves some time to negotiate with Washington. Here's the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. The countermeasures we take today are strong, but proportionate. As the United States are applying tariffs worth 28 billion dollars, we are responding with countermeasures worth 26 billion euros. This matches the economic scope of the tariffs of the United States.
We're going to bring you reaction to the escalation in tariffs from Canada and the United States. We're going to start in Europe in a few minutes. But I want to bring in Susan Schmidt here, Portfolio Manager at Exchange Capital Resources, normally in Chicago. Currently in Paris, in France. Susan, this story is changing on a day-by-day basis. What have you and what have the markets made of the retaliatory tariffs we've seen today?
Well, it is changing day by day, and in fact, hour by hour. And the markets can't take any concrete... valuation away from this because it has been changing so quickly. The message that they can take away and which you're seeing reflected in the market is a lot of uncertainty, hence market volatility.
And a lot of confusion over how this will ultimately impact prices and profitability. And again, reflected in that market, which overall trend is showing going down as investors move to the sidelines. We're going to continue this conversation with Susan, but we're going to hear lots of voices. in the programme. So let's start in Europe with the reaction to those tariffs put on steel and aluminium by Donald Trump. Here's Axel Eggert, Director General of the European Steelmakers Association.
This will have an enormous impact on our industry here in Europe. We export around about 3.8 million tons of steel to the US. These volumes are now, of course, at risk. And with the 25% tariff, which of course is not good for the US consumer. And secondly, there will be a huge deviation of steel trade flows from other countries, which previously went to the US, which will be deviated to open markets. And then you have the major markets.
of the European Union, so we are expecting millions of tons at our border very soon. If we go back to the first Trump administration, I'm just looking at some figures here. Steel imports from the EU to the US fell by more than a million tonnes. And whilst for every three tonnes withdrawn from the US, two went to the EU. Are you expecting the same again or even worse this time?
We cannot say today whether it will be worse than in 2018-19, but it will have a significant impact and the EU needs to react to that. We need measures to safeguard the viability of the EU. steel industry. And there is a lot at stake. There is a lot of stake. We have seen these retaliatory tariffs by the EU that have been announced. Do you want them to go further?
Well, they will retaliate also on steel imports from the US, but these are very tiny volumes. We're talking about maybe 20,000 tons. So this is not comparable to the 3.8 million tons. exporting to the US. Of course, we have to understand that we have a similar problem, the US. the European Union. We are both the victims of global excess capacity in the global steel industry, which is driven by China. Both of us have a steel export trade.
deficits. And therefore, it would be better to sit together and find jointly solutions instead of fighting each other. Do you understand, though, why Donald Trump has taken? these measures? Because as you said there, many parts of the world have suffered as China has dumped steel products in those markets. So do you understand what he's doing here?
Of course, he tries to cash in, obviously, but this will hammer back. We would have expected we would continue the negotiations started two and a half years ago. Biden administration with the European Union to find a global solution. And this has unfortunately stopped. But as the commission president has stated this morning, We are again reaching out to the US and to find such a solution. So it's never too late. Let's put it that way.
It's never too late, but I was looking at some of the comments about the steel industry. Let me give you one quote. This will be the final nail in the coffin of the European steel industry. Is that where we are at the moment? Is it that critical now? It is critical, but the main reason for that is not the new Donald Trump 25% tariffs on EU steel. It's just an add-on which will put us in an even bigger crisis, likely. The core problem is the massive global overcapacity China has put.
110 million tons of steel on the global markets last year in countries like Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, India, Indonesia. And this has led to a huge crisis now on top of... that we see the new measures by Donald Trump. Axel Eger, one of the big concerns if tariffs come in or if they increase is it could lead to inflation and central banks will be looking at that very closely.
My colleague Ed Butler has been speaking to the head of the German central bank, Joachim Nagel. This was his reaction to the latest tariffs. This is economics from the past. The European Union had to react, and this is what happened today in Brussels. So they had to react, did they? Because you're saying it's not a great idea. I mean, this could be the start of a global trade war. Yeah, this is...
One of the concerns I have, there was this necessity that the European Union had to react because if something is working against you, you can't accept a policy like this. So I think this was rational. But now we shouldn't close maybe the doors. So we have to talk to each other. And I hope that there is the understanding within the Trump administration that the price that has to be paid is the highest on the side of the Americans. And if that lesson is learned and understood,
I believe then there is room to maneuver again and stop this. I think this is not a good policy. It couldn't come at a worse time for Germany specifically, could it? I mean, how would you characterise the state of the German economy right now? I think we are living in a stagnating economy. The forecast of my institution, Deutsche Bundesbank, is for this year economic growth by around 0.2%. So this is not good, but this is with our tariffs. Now we are in a world with tariffs, so we...
Could expect maybe a recession for this year if the terrorists are really coming. So it is a challenging situation. So the timing for all this is definitely, this is not a good timing. And you can hear more of that interview on Business Daily, wherever you get your BBC podcast from on Thursday morning. Susan, that interest, inflation dynamic is so crucial. We talk about it so much. We had... Inflation figures from the US today, didn't we?
We did. We had CPI data. So that's consumer price index data released this morning. Now, remember that this data is backward looking. So it told us how prices fared in February and the data was positive. We had. lower increases than what we saw in January when the market got a little nervous that perhaps inflation was still running hotter than was desired.
However, when you look at this, the market had a brief reprieve today. Investors took that inflation data positively, seeing the decline month over month. But when you think about the tariffs, Rolling forward, that's what's important. Tariffs will go back to increasing prices, and that's the problem for the economy. That is a big problem for the economy. Canada responded. They put tariffs as well on the US. Let's hear the reaction of two Canadians. We were just very deceived, disappointed.
because we thought the Americans were our friends and we still believe that some of... Much American, many Americans are still always friends. Well, it concerns me as a Canadian. I worry about our relationships and how it's going to affect the economy and the young people who are trying to make a life. And we have so many struggles as there is. Why do we need to add to it with the tariffs? Let's bring in Laura Jones, president and CEO of the Business Council of British...
Colombia, Canada putting in tariffs now, isn't that just going to escalate the problem? Anger Donald Trump even more, Laura? Well, it may anger him, but it's hard to know. And tariffs, look, counter tariffs aren't ideal, but the challenge is how do you convince the Americans, and how do you convince them quickly that this isn't a good idea and in that context?
Sometimes you have to punch back. And I think that's what Canada is doing. To not punch back would also be problematic in a different way. What sort of impact is this? trade beginnings of what seems to be a trade war between both countries having on businesses in British Columbia? So obviously it's creating an enormous amount of uncertainty for the province and for the country. People are very worried about this sparking a recession. People are confused about why.
this is happening um but uh but trying to adjust to the new reality obviously and make plans where possible um but it's very chaotic and very uncertain and um you know it looks like The president is intent on sparking a global trade war, which will drag the global economy into a recession. So that's not good news for anyone. It isn't at all, is it? Mark Carney's taken a very strong tone, hasn't he, with the EU.
The Mexican leader, though, takes a very different strategy. Isn't that one that's more likely to work? She's quite quiet when it comes to the US Claudia Sheinbaum at the moment. Yeah, I think the difference between Canada and Mexico right now is he's not talking about Mexico as being the 51st state. essentially threatening.
your autonomy as a country. That's a very, very different scenario. It is. Sorry to interrupt. It's a difficult thing. But he also says he's putting tariffs in to protect his economy. Yeah, but except that the problem with that is that tariffs are not a it's not a situation where Canada is going to lose and the U.S. is going to win. This is a lose lose scenario. You're already seeing that play out on Wall Street and it's going to start playing out.
on Main Street. So for example, when you look at the steel and aluminum tariffs that have come in, The U.S. only produces about 16% of the aluminum that it needs. 60% of its supply comes from Quebec. So this is going to have an impact on carbon.
And manufacturers, if you think about construction, you think about appliances, aerospace components and other goods, all of this is going to become more expensive. Beer cans is one that people have laughed about. It is indeed. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we've got... to move on Laura but we look forward to speaking to you again on World Business Report. You're listening to World Business Report here on the BBC World Service. We heard from Europe there and from Canada. Let's now head...
to the US because Trump's trade policies are being implemented, as we heard that, to protect American jobs. So let's hear from an American steel worker. Kameen Thompson has been working at the Cleveland Cliff Steel Plant near Philadelphia for 20 years. We always wanted a fair playing ground, and these tariffs does give us that opportunity for the steel industry. You know, my plant is a main producer of high-strength steel for the United States military.
We can't have China coming in and just dumping overcapacity still here and cutting our jobs. closing our factories. So this gives us the type of opportunity when these tariffs get on that we can be able to buy American steel to keep our factories and jobs here. Scott Paul is the president of the Alliance for American Manufacturing.
I think there's the potential to have a big upside for American manufacturing. This has been a desire to boost the steel and aluminum industries in the United States. We've had these tariffs in some form. since 2018. So it's become a pretty longstanding policy. But if we see other countries retaliating, like Canada, like the EU, and putting tariffs on US steel, isn't that going to negate the...
Well, I ultimately don't know how tit for tat this is going to be, maybe for the next couple of days, maybe for the next couple of weeks. I do think that part of the reset or the reboot, if you will, of the steel and aluminum tariffs is probably also to gain leverage. It's not surprising that we saw this sort of retaliation.
But I think that this is going to come in fits and starts and there'll be waves of this again for the next couple of weeks until there's a little bit more certainty about the overall policy. This was a crucial part of his election campaign. We heard from a steelworker earlier. in the programme. When you're talking to workers in the manufacturing industry, are they fully supportive of Donald Trump? They want to see him doing this, don't they?
Well look, I do think workers, particularly those in manufacturing, feel like tariffs are part of the solution. to keeping jobs in the United States and also creating the opportunity for the next generation and that we had seen that erode. So I do think that there certainly is that connection being made.
But is it possible to move so much manufacturing back to the US? Will you even with tariffs be able to compete against parts of Asia who can produce some of these products cheaper than you can in the US? Well, I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind. First of all, at the center of a lot of the tariff conversation is China and the challenges that Chinese industrial overcapacity has for countries individually.
and collectively and how that spills over into other trading blocks. That's number one. And I think number two is to keep in mind that in the United States in particular, we saw deindustrialization. over decades. I don't know that we can build it back up in a year or even two. This is more of a longer term project. does have to be coupled by other policies, but a trade reset is certainly one of the kickoff policies that we need to get there.
But some of that deindustrialisation came because US consumers wanted those cheaper products from China. Now, if you move that manufacturing back to the US, are they going to be prepared to pay higher prices? Because that's what's going to happen. Look, I don't pretend like there won't be some cost or some tradeoffs with a policy like this. But I also think that voters and citizens in the United States and elsewhere view themselves as consumers.
but also as workers. And that's part of the identity that has been lost. And so bringing some balance there is something that people are willing to swallow, especially if that means better wages. better living conditions, and more opportunities for future generations. Scott Paulder, now some US companies are getting caught up in the tariff row, even though they're in sectors where no tariffs have been applied.
Well, the far reaching tariffs on U.S. goods will strike deep in the heart of my home state, Kentucky. Canadian businesses are pulling U.S. distilled liquor from store shelves. They certainly are. We talked about this before. Chris Swonger is the president and the CEO. of the US Distilled Spirits Council. The whole scenario is really unfortunate for the distilled spirits industry. We are really the model of fair and reciprocal trade, certainly between the United States, the UK, the EU.
in Mexico and Canada, where our industry collectively with all trading partners have thrived through Zero trade barriers and zero for zero tariffs. Our industry is a line of one working together, trying to encourage all the governments involved to make sure that the distilled spirits industry and really the greater hospitality industry. Fatality industry is not implicated. But that's not working at the moment, is it? Because the whole tariff situation each day seems to get.
bigger, more difficult for industries like your Jack Daniels makers already said, hasn't it, that Canadians pulling US alcohol off shelves is worse than a tariff, but the relations between Canada and the US are getting worse every day. You know, on behalf of the industry, we really don't understand why the Canadians have taken the
The extra step of pulling American distilled spirits off the shelves in their state stores, it's foregoing important tax revenue for the Canadian provinces. And let's not forget about the impact on Canadian consumers who appreciate it. Great American whiskey. We're an industry of distinctive products. You can only make American whiskey in the United States, Canadian whiskey in Canada. And that's another reason why our industry should not be embroiled in the...
broader trade disputes. We appreciate and recognize the greater issues that President Trump is leaning in on. The president is pushing for more steel and aluminum manufacturing in the United States, certainly. It was unfortunate that during the first Trump presidency that the EU first imposed a 25 percent terror.
on American whiskey as a result to the steel and aluminum debate. And that got our industry embroiled in a tit for tat. But as we look ahead to April the 2nd, where Donald Trump has talked about reciprocal tariffs coming in on. far more countries. You could well see not just Canada, but many other countries saying, hey, we're not sure we want to buy these American products, particularly the products that your members make.
Well, we hope not. Let me tell you an important story. In 1997, the U.S. and the EU had an agreement on distilled spirits that the U.S. and the EU would enjoy zero for zero tariffs.
and no trade barriers. And guess what happened? We had 450% growth across the Atlantic for the benefit of both. But that's a completely different time, isn't it? This is a very different era that we're in. Do you think Donald Trump should rein in on the tariffs now because of the impact it's having on businesses like yours. Does that mean you're saying he should stop tariffs? Just to be clear, is that what you're saying? It's time for.
some of these tariffs to stop now? No doubt there should be no tariffs applied on distilled spirits products on both sides of the Atlantic, period. Chris Wonga there, Susan Schmidt still with us. Do you think we're going to see Donald Trump back off this tariff policy or more to come? I think we just have to look at Donald Trump's.
personality and the dialogue that's happened thus far. There's lots more to come. Investors expect that. You're seeing that reaction in the stock markets. This conversation is going to be going on and we'll be talking about this for several months, if not till the end of this year. It's messy. Well, we'll be talking to you about it. Go and enjoy Paris, Susan.
Let us move away from tariffs because the internet appears to have a memory problem. That is a big issue, isn't it? When so much of our important data and information is stored there. Frey Lindsay has been investigating the phenomenon of Linkrot.
Hi, I'm Olivia, and I grew up in the south of Spain. There was this Spanish thing called Twente. I refused to get Facebook for a couple of years, so everything of me as a preteen and teenager, first loves, first crushes, songs I wrote, were going on there.
and then when i went to university i guess that they sent an email around saying that 20 was about to close and that you had to download everything but it wasn't my gmail that i was actually checking it was a hotmail account i lost several years of photos and writings friendships. We think of the internet as a kind of a place, a place where you can go and see things that are stored there. The material in that place is kept on servers, on physical hard drives all around the world.
But companies go out of business, or they just migrate to a new website and they don't do it very well. And all that leads to what's called LinkRot. A 404 message or a file not found. Aaron Smith is director of data labs at Pew Research Center. From all of the almost one million... URLs that we looked at from 2013 to 2023. A quarter of those pages no longer resolved to a functioning website. About half of reference sections on Wikipedia pages had at least one link that was no longer functional.
The thing is, though, for many of those deadlinks, there's still a copy of the original page preserved on the Internet Archive and a few other similar sites. My name's Anusha Hossein, and I'm a historian of computing and the Internet in the 2000s. everyone was producing content that was saved on web pages. And those could be snapped up by the Wayback Machine. And now I think more user-generated content is happening behind walled gardens or on social media platforms that aren't as easy to access.
Journalism is a job that over the last few decades has become ever more online. You, listening right now, might be the last person to ever hear this. And that's the story of a lot of now-defunct online news sites, such as Gawker, MTV News, The All. It doesn't have to be this way, though. My name is Katie Baker. I am currently a senior staff writer at The Ringer and was previously a staff writer at The Ringer's predecessor, which was called Grantland.
Grantland was a well-respected US long-form sports and culture site for the four years that it existed, before the owner ESPN pulled the plug. But the thing is, ESPN are still paying to keep Grantland's archive online. I went to Russia in 2014 and talked to a hockey coach there. And I went to find the link. And I always have a moment of nerves where I think that maybe this time I'm going to go and it's going to be gone. And I'm always so relieved when it's still.
there. ESPN have chosen to pay that small amount to keep Grantland up, but it's not normally that way. Businesses typically operate for profit, and there's little incentive to pay to maintain archives of these sites. But at the same time, companies really don't like it when someone else makes a copy of their intellectual property. And that's where the Internet Archive and its Wayback Machine come back into the picture.
Publishers and record labels have brought an existentially threatening lawsuit or two lawsuits that could erase that archive at the stroke of a pen and moreover salt the earth so that nobody ever tries to do what they've done before. That's writer and activist Corey Doctorow. He's a visiting professor of computer science at the Open University and co-founder of the Open Rights Group. You know, in the early days of the internet, the internet was weird and it was diverse and it was pluralistic.
The people who were, you know, setting up early websites and creating online services, they were capitalists. What won was not capitalism, but monopolism. And you can hear more of that report by Frey Lindsay in Business Daily, of course, wherever you get your BBC podcast. We're going to be back with Business Matters at 0100.
We're going to be in Australia and also in the United States. I'm sure you can guess what's going to be the basis of our conversation. We will be talking more about the issue of tariffs.