61 - Tahmina Watson - Immigration Lawyer and Published Author

We spend some time discussing the various work Jesus how they relate to a person's immigration status, as well as touched on some other immigration issues that relate to the United States and how that may affect immigrants around the world. I hope you find this conversation informative and I hope that it opens the door for having further conversations with you, your friends, and your family about this sensitive issue. Well, firstly, I thank you for being here or taking the time

to be here. I know that you're busy. I was reading up a little bit on you and you're an published author, have another book coming out, Which is what's an achievement for I mean, just doing one is an achievement. But I mean which which number book is this? It's like number.

coming into our country. And from what I understand, there's always like there's a difference versus when they're on one side of the border and when they cross over. And of course there's the other situation where airports are kind of like Switzerland or neutral if they don't really have any borders, like they're not a country right until they

actually cross over into the destination they're going to. So there's a lot of that, And I also want to get your opinion on how things are being handled by the administration. And we don't have to get too political per se, but I do want to get some better explanation of the laws, the rights and is the administration going about this the correct way. Because I have my opinions, I know other people have their opinions. Again, you know,

I talk to like people in the intelligence community. I have other journalists I speak with, and not a lawyer though that specializes in this particular subject matter. So with that being said, I thought, hey, to me, and maybe you can help us with this, Maybe you can explain a little bit you know would.

the standpoint backed by data. And that's one thing that I'm hoping that you can do for us, you know. And one of the things that were that was in well contested for a while or people didn't understand and even I'm still foggy on was was the right to work as in you know, the h H one H two A visas or H two B visas. Can you explain how that works and how that relates to someone who has one of those visas and works in the United States.

back basics for a moment. The United States immigration system was created in nineteen ninety and the current system that we work with, and it created a family based system, element based system. In the employment based system, we have temporary work visas and we have green card options. But the temporary work visas or the temporary visa programs are in the employment based system. There's no temporary visa in

the family based system. The family system is primarily get a green card you with misfah with you, and so in the employment based pre visa categories there are various different types of visa categories which are labeled as ault and then a number and so H one B, H two B, H two A one A one B. And so there are these letters and numbers and then letters again that signa for specific categories of visas. And when it comes to these visas, they're really defined by the

type of work somebody is going to be doing. So if you're a priest coming here to be a priest to add a church, you would get a religious visa R one. If you are quote unquote a genius, one of the top people in your profession, be getting an old visa, And that was a matter of controversy see during the first time President Trump was in office because the first Lady had that visa. So the H one

B visa is a work visa as well. And the basic premise of the H one B visa is that you must have a bachelor's degree in a specific subject matter that gives you the academic training and theoretical training to do a particular job that requires that training. So even though I'm a lawyer, i would not be eligible for a job in the computer industry because my degree is not in computer science. Okay, so the specific degree

has to match a specific job. Any work visa has three primary requirements to show number one that there is an employer. Number two, there's a job, and number tho, there's an employee that you're going to sponsor. The employer is going to sponsor. Now, the employer has to make specific promises number one that they are going to pay the prevailing wage for that type of job in that

type of breer. So an entry level doctor in Kansas City may get let's call it, fifty thousand dollars a year, but the entry level doctor in New York might be getting seventy thousand dollars a year. So the prevailing wage is determined by the Department of Labor and they decide what the salary will be, and the employer has to essentially promise that they will pay that salary. So that's the number one promise and number two promise is that they are they have the finances to pay that salary

for a job that actually truly exists. Okay. And so when we hear debates in the news, often the debate is about bringing in cheap labor, particularly on the H one B front. You might remember around Christmas twenty twenty four was major you by controversial disctions where Elon Musk supports the H one B, and Steve Bannon does not support the H one B, and then President Trump that yes, he supports the H one B, And so there's controversy among leadership about the benefits of an H one B.

But what are the facts. The facts are that employers in the United States, such as Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing, you name the big corporation, they use H one B visas because they generally cannot find enough talent to take those jobs. Why is that is because our education system is not

producing sufficient talented minds or people for our workforce. Now, the question that comes up from that is, well, they're cheap labor, You're paying them less, And the answer is no, if anything, it costs more to hire somebody on an H one B. And the reason is not only are they they the employer making the promise as per the Department of Labour's guidance, but they also have to be competitive because the people that they are trying to recruit

are being courted by multiple companies, and so they have to make sure that the employer's offer is attractive enough for somebody to say, yes, I would like to join you. So they are often being competitive in the market. But secondly, the employer has to then pay for legal fees, HI fees, compliance fee go forth. And so for anybody listening, each one B is an important visa in our immigration system because often people behind the scenes that are managing important

parts of our lives. And you just need to look at your telephone, your cell phone, the hardware, the network, the software often are being managed by high skilled immigrants who might be working at some of these telephone companies or the wireless companies, or the you know, the technology companies. All the apps that you have on your phone by a lot of high skilled immigrants.

possibly may have come from. And I know this from the construction industry and various other businesses that I've owned also throughout the years, and I will say that sometimes there's a difference between prevailing wage and the market value

of a job in a certain area. So let's say construction work, for example, if you're a framer, prevailing wage I've just thrown this out there could be twenty five dollars an hour, but due to the market demand and what usually pays an experienced framer in that particular area, they're actually getting paid let's say upwards of forty five

dollars an hour, especially if they're in the union. So I'm wondering if that may have contributed to the misunderstanding of you know, as you said, cheap labor was it was it Could it have been a difference between what was considered a market value for a job and what was considered a standard prevailing wage.

me toly talk about Microsoft and Amazon. But when there is somebody both these companies might want to hire, and the startup smaller companies want to hire the same person, they have to be competitive with competitive market rates, otherwise they will not have that talented person join them. So while there is perception, that actually is probably widespread, George, So great question. Thank you for asking that the pool of people that these companies can draw from are still

limited and so you have to pay market value. And in addition to that, there are you know, no no secret if you go look at any job ad for Monster dot com or Indeed dot com or wherever salaries are posted, and these salaries when somebody promises a salary that is through a form on the Department of Labor's website, and the Department of Labour's website will have a lot of data that can be accessed by the public. And so it it is again coming back to you, George.

It's a good question, But the reality is these companies pay the market value.

probably because I've seen it myself, you know. And I'm not saying that applies to the situation for example, when we're talking about engineers, but just wondering if the public may have I don't know if someone out there probably came across out data and they thought, well, yeah, they're getting cheap labor, and of course it has to be competitive, especially and you know, again I have been an employer,

and I do know that. Listen, if you stay a salary in publicly and is plubbly available, everybody has to be you know, offered the same wage, at least the same starting wage, and then you know, move up from there. So I understand that I was just wondering if you thought that might that that issue that I brought up may have been part of that misperception. Is I guess how I should have worded it as to whether or not they're really paying for cheap labor. I don't believe

that's the case. Is but I do want to ask you this, is there a myth? Is it okay? Is this a myth with with an H one visa, for example? Is is there a contract between the employer employee as for a certain amount of time? Is that true?

whatever the way it is. And so that's a contract and the employer actually has to contract with whatever else they're doing they have. There's a lot of compliance involved where if they are applying for a NACHU one B, the employer has to post a copy of the quote unquote wage promise that we just talked about in an inconspicuous place in their office for ten days so everybody can see it. So if anybody is, you know, feeling

like there's an issue, they can most definitely complain. But it's there is a process for this and it has to be open and that posting is a very important part of it to make sure there's visibilit and compliance and then all of those forms get signed by them.

one B is six years. So they can they have to first get into a lottery, and the lottery period is opening up March seventh to twenty fourth this year, and if somebody is selected in the lottery, then they don't have to be in the lottery again once you know Employer A has has gone through the lottery. HAN sponsored them and they worked for Company A, even if it's for one day. You know, we're looking at a lot of layoffs these days, which are you know, bringing

up different types of nuanced problems. But as long as they worked for company A, they can move to company BCDEFG as many times as they want without being in the lottery. But only up to six years in total. And there are people in the US who have been on H one b's for much longer than six years, but only if some technical steps have been taken towards the cards.

you offer that job for a foreign worker. Now, to test the market, there are many steps that have to be taken. First, you have to ensure or the Department of Labor believes that this is the right wage job. So you have apply and Department of Labor might take eight nine to twelve months give permission on that wage. Then in your local area with the main newspaper of

that area, including three other ways of advertising. So the government wants to see that you've made a bona fide effort, a real effort to advertise the position, and that has to be advertised for at least thirty days, and then you have to wait thirty days to applications. Now, if somebody applies for the job who has the minimum experience required, the employer cannot move forward with the application unless he hires this person or they hire this person and continue

with the other position. So if you've tested the market and somebody exists, you can't go forward with that application.

you do these steps. And because it's very complicated and not cheap, the process is expensive, employers don't necessarily want to do this until they have to. But there are a lot of employees chainly start the process as soon as the H one B application has been approved because they know all of these steps will take time, and

often these timelines can't be controlled. So for example, when during the first Trump presidency, everything was backlogged significantly and it took four years for the Biden administration to reduce timelines in various different application processes. And so employers have to be mindful that these timelines can can change and go back and forth. And this is not just the timeline, this is just the processing to get the green card.

That's a different type of calculation and an assessment altogether. If you're from India, China, Philippines, Mexico, the waiting time for people born in these countries is signif longer for people who than people who are born in a or somewhere in Europe.

permanent resident here, got it? And you have to maintain your visa status throughout that time and that green card application with the technicalities I mentioned about certain times and certain applications unless you get to and approved what's called I one forty, where the employer has fulfilled their market testing exercise and proven to the Department of Homeland Security

saying I couldn't find somebody. I'm sponsoring Joe blog. Until somebody gets to that point, they cannot extend their H one bs for three years at a time, and a lot of people in this country are in that situation. Yeah, and so you have to have that employer continuously sponsor you for the H one B. Now, one of the scenarios, George, you might have seen over the last few years is

the technology industry has seen a lot of layoffs. And California's seen the layoffs, Washington stat has seen them over the country. People have been laving.

you here. Well, what happens to that person when they get stuck in this in between status where you know, like you said, there's only so many green cards available, right, one hundred and forty seven percent divided by seven percent among other countries, et cetera. But then what happens to that individual where they get stuck in that middle where it's like, oh, well, you know, we're kind of stuck. We can't get you the green card, or or they couldn't make it happen to where they could extend to

a permanent work status. What happens to that individual.

about the temporary visa and the permanent visa. Yes, the temporary visa is what allows you to remain in the United States, so one must always have if you're on a work visa or employment based in a greation system, you want to maintain status with a temporary visa, the green card application that the employer might have filed and you met that certain stage, you can keep your position in that quote unquote line. But a new employer has to go through the entire exercise all over again.

there are calculations and many reports written. One if anybody's looking, you can look up Cato c Ato which is a think tank and they have done a lot of studies and so you will look in one of their reports, just google it and the reports go through a lot of different you know, methods of doing these analysis and they found that anybody in from India in this backlog, often will have to wait seventy plus years to get their green cards.

seasonal workers, and these two have quotas. The H two B has quotas and so and the age three visa is for people training who don't have training in their home country are coming to the United States to learn a skill that they wouldn't have otherwise. But proving whether it's H two A or B or three or H one B, it's all about the paperwork. And all of the various complicated procedures. So you said you're familiar with

the H two A. There are times for it. I must have done, you know, things in advance to be able to jump into the you know, application process for the H to be or H u A. It's it's not simple, and there aren't that many lawyers who file AH to be an HUOA compared to the H one BS.

seems to automatically think the worst. You know, it's always a negative forever for the United States, for example, when it's not the case, but it can be a negative for the person gets stuck in the middle or gets caught in between those timelines that you were talking about.

of the controversy it's from. But A, we don't have enough of those visas, and b there aren't enough American workers to go and do back in the sun rain, you know, on farms, and so you know, if you were to ever think about doing a follow up podcast on these issues, maybe interviewed somebody who owns a farm and will tell you they see every day.

And the other reason why people have been upset is because you know, look, there's many people who said, sure, I'll go pick cherries, for example, if it paid thirty five dollars an hour for you know, we know that's not the wage for that particular position, but that's been the argument. And so once we started outsourcing labor again,

That's why I said, this is a different conversation. And you're bringing in labor from outside while they're getting they are getting paid the wages according to the market, and what is a standard wage in the guidelines of how the government says you should pay someone for a particular position. Those positions in of themselves have been watered down and degraded to a lower pain. That is, versus if they were paying for somebody else, like you said, you know,

someone someone here. Let's just say a white guy. You know, some white guy wants to go Picturey's. You know that he's probably not gonna go do it because he doesn't he's not gonna do it for that amount of money. So I don't know if I don't know if it's an argument of whether or not people are afraid to do the work or they just don't want to do the work because they don't think it's worth what it's paying. My job, Okay, so for my business, I'll bring this up.

For example, we're in the events industry. So there's times I work with everybody. I don't care what race country you're from. You know, if you're a professional and you know your stuff, and I don't have to hold your hand, we're good. I just don't want to worry about whether or not you're getting the job done. And I have people that are extremely good at their jobs. I mean

no way more than I do, and they should. And I'm a white guy and I and I know people that are Mexican, I know people that are Indian that are all in this particular industry, and we all network with each other. We keep each other going, and we keep each other paid. But we are working hard. Okay, now, now, what I'm I'm trying to get at is all summer. I am in one hundred and five plus weather for sixteen eighteen hours every day working. I'm doing it because

I'm getting paid to do it. I'm getting paid well, and I pay everybody who works for me well because they're specialists within that that industry. But when we're talking about people in the fields, they're not treated the same. And I think that is the issue that we have, and that's why most people say, yeah, I'm not going to go pick those cherries or cut that lawn because I'm not getting paid enough for me to go out

there and sweat. And maybe we need to change the perception of how people view hard work and labor in the United States. Maybe it's just a matter of retraining people or holding the industries accountable for making the wages livable. What do you think of that?

he actually making? You know that that business there's a common misconception, and there are different businesses, different issues. Okay, but what does the standard farm business make and what is the salary that's necessary to do that? Now, if they're paying thirty five dollars an hour for a particular position in which they're actually losing forty dollars an hour. How are they actually going to keep that business going. You know, it's it's very it's a very complicated situation.

We do need livable wages in this country. The Liverpool wages question comes up in childcare, in teaching, in construction. It's not related to the farm, farm workers and the farm. But the answer, you know, I don't necessarily have a good answer for you, because you know, it's just it's way it's way too complicated to go into. But I will say this to you. I have had clients who own construction companies and home care, you know, nursing homes where people are trying to get into hospice care, so

to speak. Because you know, our medical industry has its own very big problems. And so when they want to hire people for the construction industry or the you know, nursing home that he cannot find American workers. And one particular business owner said to me, to me, now, I was going to pay him exactly what he wanted. He showed up, he didn't know which side the hammer was up or down.

I'm not arguing. I'm just I'm just asking the question, you know what I'm saying that I think.

vocational tools and schools? You know, plumbing or becoming electician. You know, are we doing enough of that? Are we putting enough emphasis on stam education at kindergarten level so that the next generation of workforce can do the jobs that H one B workers are doing well?

not a lot of planning really. I mean, you could argue that. Sure, in a business, you have you plan your finances, your income versus your overhead. You know, like you know your net versus your gross, et cetera, how much margin you're making on a sale bunch, your percentages of this and that, and you can go through your sales cycles versus so you know, hey, in Christmas, I know this is going to be huge for me, and then after Christmas it's gonna die down. We're gonna take

some hits because it returns and it's et cetera. Now that's just data. You're just taking all that in strapolading it and you're analyzing it and then you can make certain predictions. But are you truly truly planning for the future? Of the actual industry or the workforce down the road, because fast forward here we are. Now we're finding less and less qualified individuals in the United States to do these positions that we need.

keep moving on with their life. Nobody's really having these conversations except for maybe people like you, because this is what you do for a living and you see it all the time, especially when it relates to you know, immigrants and having to deal with these these work visas. So you see it first hand. But most people, most average people do not see this or even deal with this. They just rely on what's going on in social media

to tell them what's going on. And unfortunately that's not the way to go about getting your information.

they're being managed immigrants. You know, if you go to the grocery store and you're seeing the shiny apples on the shelves, immigrants are likely picking them. If you're getting the milk seamlessly appearing on your table on your shelf, immigrants are likely milking the cow or however they operate dairy stuff. If you're finding the toilet paper in the grocery store, is because an immigrant is likely driving that truck, which you know, obviously was very very prevalent as or

exposed was exposed during the pandemic. Immigrants are actually the fabric of our society, and because it's much of it is invisible, those who are just living lives and you know, day to day doing or whatever they're doing. It's not apparent, but if we didn't have the immigrants, life would be falling apart, and that day may be coming soon. Who knows. I hope I haven't jinxed us, but it doesn't take me to jinx us. You know that the executive orders alone will do it.

legal immigrants versus legal people were legally here. And I'm not sure your feelings because you see firsthand families that have to go through this, But what what how do we how do we move forward in handling those who are here illegally but are trying to be here because

they're trying to make a better life for themselves. And again, I'm I'm gonna keep the politics out of it because I know, I know that there are other conversations we had with this, to be quite honest, and I've done a lot of research that comes straight from the Border Patrols data. So I've seen it all, and I've done more than one show on this. So there's not much you can say about it that I probably wouldn't know or could tell you. But yeah, but for those who

are trying to do it the right way. And and this brings me back to a story of a friend I have who had to come to this country due to I'll just I'll just say he had to come over. Grandfather was already here, grandfather was legally here for many years. Brought his grandson over to protect him. And he's been here for a long time. He actually worked for me for a while. He went to university. He's a computer science major. He works for a utility company. Guy's brilliant,

you know, and he's going through a situation. He did it the way. He and his family did it the right way. They stuck to it the whole deal, even if in the beginning he had to just get him out to save him, right, his grandfather had to save him. But after all that time, legally. He's here illegally period, and he's trying to get his wife over here at right now. But he's battling this like no matter what

he does. He's hired multiple lawyers, he's gone through every scenario you could think of, and it just keeps getting delayed and pushed back. And it's been years and so those people, I think some people or most people these days, look at every single illegal immigrant. Ask someone who's trying to do something bad or they're a bad person. Technically, yeah, you're breaking the law, But at the same time, not every or person is here for nefarious reasons. How are

you handling that? Or in your experience, how have you seen the perception of people when it comes to that distinction of illegal versus those who are legally here or do people just not even see the difference.

that we live. In since the nineteen nineties. And now think about how many times over the world has changed and evolved, and how many you know, evolution we've had. We've you know, industrial revolution, we've had you know the Y two K now the AI globalization. The world is so much smaller. The laws have not kept up with that. In addition to that, America is part of many international treaties, including the Human Rights Convention. And you know, nobody is illegal.

They could be undocumented, but human rights are an incredibly important part of American values, and so our laws are not necessarily keeping up with what we need for this country and what we need for the future. There are jobs that need to be done in this country, and there are people who want jobs from different countries. There are people who want to just stay alive. You know, today you talk about cartels and that's a lot. That's one of the issues for some of the Latin American countries,

but other countries are going through wars. There are climate change issues that are displacing people. You know, the entire world needs to come together and find solutions. But in America, we need comprehensive immigration reform to make sure that our laws are keeping up with the times.

it's all about humanity. So by that statement, does that mean the entire world every country should accept everyone equally? Should it just be an open system for anyone want to just travel in and out of each country without restriction?

or wherever. There has to be world solutions. But for our immedia issue, we are in America, we are at the we have borders, we are bordering Canada and Mexico. You know, there has to be solutions that come from Legypt, that take into the taken into account the values that we live by and finding common solutions. And do I have an answer? No, you know, I'm just one person who advocates for what is what I feel is right for the highest good. But the people that hold the

power can't seem to agree on anything. It's become a very divisive issue. But if we could go back to love as a source of energy in our world, that every human being deserves love, and every human being deserve a way to just live, why can't we come up with solutions that that can actually everybody and everybody does their own share. I'm not saying America should take everybody

in anybody. I'm saying that we need to have comprehensive immigration reform actually can find some solutions, and right now we have nothing. Oh sorry, it's three o'clock. I have to go this. This type of conversation can go on all day long. And so I'm so sorry I have to leave at three because I have a call coming up, but I just wanted to make sure that you knew that before we dive into something else.