Writing a Little Light Murder

Ted 0:01:
(voiceover) Today's episode is brought to you by dogs. Potentially interrupting this podcast at any moment. (end voiceover)

Ted 0:11:
Welcome to Working Drafts. I'm your host, Ted Fox. And if you have found this show, it's a podcast dedicated to the craft, the process of writing. We focus on what my guests are currently working on and what they're navigating on the page to bring those stories to life. And today, I'm so thrilled to have an opportunity, actually for the second time in my life, to talk with and interview Lauren Wilkinson. Lauren, welcome.

Lauren 0:34
Hi, thanks for having me.

Ted 0:36:
So Lauren's debut novel, American Spy, was a Washington Post bestseller, an NAACP Image Award nominee, an Anthony Award nominee, an Edgar Award nominee. It was shortlisted for the Center for Fiction's First Novel Prize, was a Barnes and Noble Book of the Month, a PBS Book Club pick, and something I am forever jealous of, was included on President Obama's 2019 Recommended Reading List. (both laugh) I'm still very jealous of that. Lauren earned her MFA in fiction and literary translation from Columbia University and has taught writing at Columbia and the Fashion Institute of Technology. Her work has appeared in Granta, The Believer, New York Magazine, and The New York Times, among other publications. And she also writes for TV. So quite a writing background in a lot of different areas. So it's fun to be able to talk to her today.

So I read through all these really cool things that you have done, but as I told you in the email or in the idea of the show is we talk about what someone is working on now or been working on recently. So in whatever detail, level of detail you're comfortable sharing, what is occupying your writing mind right now? What are you working on?

Lauren 1:46:
So I'm working on a new novel.

Ted 1:48:
Oh, awesome.

Lauren 1:48:
I actually sold it in December, but now I have to write it. (both laughter and)

Ted 1:54:
Congratulations, though.

Lauren 1:56:
Thank you. (laughs) Definitely a mixed bag there, though. But exciting to have sold it. It is a whodunit, a classic murder mystery kind of in the vein of Agatha Christie and specifically the Poirot stories, but it's set in the present. And the detective is a Black woman who is also a social media influencer. So she has the same sort of--I'm hoping (laughs), you know, as I'm writing it, because, you know, I know that your audience will forgive me because this is a podcast about being in process.

Ted 2:35:
(laughs) That's right.

Lauren 2:36:
(both laughing) Yes, as I'm writing, I'm like, man, I would love for her to be like Sherlock Holmes and be highly perceptive. I would love for her to be like Poirot and be able to understand some human psychology in this beautiful way. But I'm the one who has to write that. (laughs) So hoping for it is not, unfortunately, just making it happen. So that's where I'm at. (laughs)

Ted 3:05:
You're thinking, I'd really like to read that story. Oh wait, I'm the one who has to make it. (laughs)

Lauren Wilkinson 3:10:
Exactly. I'd love to read it. I mean, I've decided like, I want to, you know, we it's been a hard few years, I think, for everybody. So I was thinking I wanted to write something fun, tonally, that I enjoy that I myself would want to read that wasn't too heavy, I think. But yeah, now I have to have to do that. Do that work. So yeah, that's where, that's where I'm at.

Ted 3:36
I mean, it reminds me, my episode last month was with Bianca Marais, and she is in process on a similar, she had kind of a closed-room mystery kind of story she was working on. And one of the things that we talked about was just how difficult that is to execute because you're trying to make these pieces line up in a way that both keeps the reader in the dark so they don't see it coming, but can't be so much that it's like, oh, well, no one ever could have figured that out. And you just kind of cheated as a writer. And one thing that I've found comes up a lot in these conversations that I have is this idea of, are you a pantser or a planner in terms of how you approach your writing? And one of the things she and I talked about was that she was very much a fly by the seat of your pantser, but that she was finding that really difficult to try to do with writing a mystery. So I'm wondering, for you, how would you categorize your writing normally in terms of how you approach it? Are you a big outliner or more by the seat of your pants? And have you had to adjust at all working on as you start thinking about how to execute this story?

Lauren 4:48:
Yeah, definitely. I had the same experience. My first book was really, I didn't outline at all. And one of the consequences of that was it took me seven years to write. (both laugh) As we talked about off camera, I have a kid now, I have a family, I have a child to support. I can't just be dawdling anymore, taking my sweet time, taking seven years to perfect my thing. So as you mentioned in my bio, I've been doing a lot of writing for TV as well in the time between the book came out and now. And that--is outlining is required. You're on a very strict timeline in television. A lot of different people are looking at and want to give you notes on your work. And so outlining is a requirement. It's a phase. There's no getting around it. You have to give an outline to your network executives as a part of the process of producing your episode. So I took that experience and applied it to this novel. So it's been, I'm really working hard to outline. It is hard to write this kind of murder mystery because, yeah, as you were saying, like it's, you know, you want to give enough information, you want to give a clue trail, but not be too obvious. But there's also, there also is such a specific genre. There's a really--like, Agatha Christie had a very specific formula that she was working with. And there are people who have done similar things who have kind of perfected this formula. So I'm trying to keep to that formula. And then sort of in the third act, I intend to break it just to kind of show really what is at the heart of what I'm trying to do with this book. Breaking it is a requirement to do that. But for most of the book, I really want to try to stick to that formula. And sticking to a formula definitely also sticking to an outline really, really helps.

Ted 7:13:
We talk about that there as that being something kind of different and that maybe has kind of come with you from your TV work. Setting that, I don't even know if that, because it sounds like it's being helpful. It's not necessarily a challenge. It's kind of a different way of looking at it. Is there anything as you're--like you said, you sold the book in December. As you're getting going here, anything you're really kind of wrestling with in these early stages as, this is the thing that is, at least I guess we never know from the time we start a book to the time we finish, is it going to be the same thing that's challenging us the whole time? But is there anything that's kind of front and center that you're trying to wrestle through with here at the, in the earlier stages?

Lauren 7:56:
Really, I think the thing I'm wrestling with most is just getting the first 50 pages down. Because I've found that if the foundation is weak and what I'm building on is weak, it gets harder and worse and worse and worse. So I sold Random House 50 pages when I sold the book, but they're an entirely different 50 pages. Because as I was building on it, the sandcastle started to reveal itself as being incredibly weak. (laughs) So I was like, okay, let me--you know, and my editor is a great editor and she gave me some notes on those pages. And I was like, she's a hundred percent right. But the notes that she's given me have completely blown up all of these pages, you know? (laughs) So it was, it was right.

So really, yes, the last few months since I sold it have just been focused on, How do I get this 50 pages solid and showing it in the formula, using the formula of a murder mystery accurately and writing a solid act one that will allow me to get into the clue trail as the reader is expecting from this kind of story? I had as a professor Paul Beatty, who wrote The Sellout, it's like a Booker Prize winner, and he told me once something similar where he was like, he'll take years trying to figure out the first 50 pages, and then only once that's set will he move forward and the rest of it will come up quite a bit faster. But the first part will take him a really long time. And when he told me that, I didn't understand it at all. I understand it now. (laughs) Because I didn't, I mean, I was having--the first book, I felt I could feel it when the 50 pages in the beginning weren't strong enough, but I just kept writing anyway. (laughs)

Ted 10:04:
Yeah.

Lauren 10:04: 
And then I got to the end and I was like, okay, but this is kind of, this draft is kind of a mess because this just doesn't have a strong enough foundation. So now, to cut some of the time, hopefully, instead of just keeping going and being like, I'll deal with that later, I'm just being like really strict with myself. No, if this isn't solid at the top, you gotta just stop. (laughs)

Ted 10:29:
And I mean, for anyone listening to this, if you haven't had that experience because you haven't tried necessarily to sell anything yet, or if you're just listening to this because you're interested in writing, this certainly isn't breaking news, but I have found that idea of the first 50 pages and what are you getting to at the end of those 50? And how is it setting up the rest of the book? You and I write different things, but it's the same sort of thing for me when we were selling the first novel and it was then you're, you know, pitching the next one. It's like, all right, what is happening in this first--more or less, it doesn't have to be 50 on the nose, but kind of this first part of the book? So that's something I feel like as writers resonates with all of us. How did your, how was that conversation with your editor then going in saying, Hey, you know, you obviously were interested in this book with the notes that you had on the first 50, but this is the way I was going to approach it, I kind of want to do things differently now? Was that something--how did you approach that saying like, just kidding (laughs), I want to do this differently now?

Lauren 11:35: 
Yeah, I didn't tell her. (Ted laughs) I mean, and I almost suggested that it was her responsibility that I changed it. (laughs) I mean not, it's not, because she did--she didn't like, it's not like she blew it up. It's not like that works that way in our dynamic. She gave me notes that were really, really, really accurate. You know, she--it was just, I was kind of keeping one character at a physical distance in the story using tech. And she asked me why I was doing that. And I was like--I thought about it, the reason I was doing that wasn't a good enough reason. And then, so I was like, well, I gotta put this character in the actual book. 

Ted 12:18:
Got it.

Lauren 12:18:
So we can see their conflict playing. So I had to then write a lot about that character (laughs), because he wasn't in it in the first part. The second one was, you know, she was saying like, this world is very friendly to the detective character, which is not really how it is in murder mysteries. They're generally an outsider. They're a detective who comes to a small town and unravels everybody's secrets. And she was saying, you know, that I should try to really unpack that a little more. She wasn't, you know, being prescriptive, but just told me I should unpack it. And that she was right on as well. And I realized that in the first 50 pages, I'd spent a lot of time writing and working on having my character interact with people who were easiest for me to write.

Ted 13:11:
Mmm.

Lauren 13:11
And those people tended to be ones who were most receptive to the main character. So I kind of had to kind of cut out everyone who was really nice to the main character and that ended up being like, leaving me with like four pages. (both laugh) So I had to kind of, you know, so I had to really, really restart. I submitted the new version only a couple days ago, and she just said that she'd read it and tentatively really liked it and had some more notes. So we'll see, we'll see. But she's also, I mean, she's also used to this from me. (laughs) So she knows my ways. She knows my antics. She knows what to expect from me. So I think that's also a good thing and a really helpful part of our relationship.

Ted 13:57:
So when you, this is, I mean, I've certainly consumed books and movies and things like this in this genre before, but I've never really thought about kind of, it is a genre where there are very specific beats or archetypes that you're supposed to hit. Can you walk us through, just kind of at like a 5,000-foot level, when you're thinking about, if you're kind of riffing on that form, especially in act three, what is the form that you're riffing on and that you have to make sure that you're--I don't want to say checkpoints, but that you're doing throughout the book to make sure it is defined as a murder mystery?

Lauren Wilkinson 14:36:
Yeah, so some things I've noticed and then also other people have noticed who write about books like this, write formulas. You know, act one, introduce your detective and if they have a Watson, introduce the Watson. Introduce the pool of suspects. I am doing like kind of a closed murder mystery, so there are only a few suspects. Then you have your, you have your body hit the floor. So that's kind of our setup. Act 2, we do more, we interview everybody, interview all the suspects. The first one is less hostile than the second one (laughs), the second interview set, you know. And there are, there should be some plot points that make you--you know, in some instances there will be a plot point that will make you feel like, oh man, the detective is really far away from what they're gonna, you know, this is really confusing. How are they gonna put this all together? And then I think I'd wanna add a little, you know, like, Poirot, he really was like, I don't wanna ever have to go to a crime scene. (laughs) I just wanna sit in my, like, he's literally, I just wanna use my little gray cells and I wanna sit here and figure out, but that's like not actually--I want a little more action than that, so I'm trying to figure out how to have a little action. And that will happen in Act 2 as well. At the end of Act 2, top of Act 3, is what I'm calling my drawing room scene, where the detective reveals who the criminal is. And then here I'm breaking it a little bit. And then there will be kind of an undermining of this revelation. But yeah, that's pretty much it.

Ted 16:35:
Yeah. Is there any debate in that community of people who work in this area when you talk about the body hitting the floor of whether--maybe this is a weird question because if it's a mystery, you can't see exactly what happens. But whether that is something, how front and center is that to the action of the story? Or is it just kind of a thing that gets stumbled upon in order to maintain the mystery? Or is it kind of all over the place just depending on the, on the book?

Lauren Wilkinson 17:07:
It depends on the book. I mean, there are, it feels like some of them, it's like in the first couple of chapters, the body is, the body hits the floor, you know? You don't--and I say it like that because it is like that. It's not about the body in books like that. It's not about a character. It's about, this is like the catalyst for the detective to solve a logic problem, right?

Ted 17:35:
Got it.

Lauren 17:35:
And that's like a different, that's a really different thing than a lot of, you know, a lot of like darker thrillers are doing. But that is a structure that you can also really see pretty clearly in TV and a lot of procedurals, right? You have in like the first act at the beginning or when the detective shows up, the person is already dead. And then it's about, it's a vehicle for them to kind of figure out what has happened, which is an interesting way--an artificial way--of talking about murder. I think there are kind of interesting things to talk about that--about something, doing one of the worst things that you can do. (both laugh) And it's very weird, I think, that we make it into a form of entertainment in this way, where we just are like, okay, this person has done the worst thing they can do. Like, that's bad, that's an evil. And let's follow someone who's very, very good and who's going to redress this wrong by figuring it out. I mean, that's almost like, it's like a little--I mean, it's definitely pretty archaic, right? (laughs) To kind of think about good and bad in those terms.

Ted 19:01:
Have you thought about what drew you to wanting--I mean, I know you talked about the time with the pandemic and everything else and wanting to do something. I mean, it's funny to say it's a little bit lighter: Hey, it's a little light murder. (Lauren laughs) But I know what, I get what you mean by that. Have you thought about beyond kind of tonally what you want to do with it, what drew you to it as a subject--I guess not a subject matter, maybe a subject matter or genre--as what you wanted to tell for your next story?

Lauren Wilkinson 19:34:
Yeah, I mean, this idea, you know, of--there's a lot of things that drew me to it. But I think, so I mean, the thing that I really want to be talking about is--this might not work, but it is the rough draft. (both laugh) So that's the working draft. I think at the same time as COVID, you know, we are also sort of--putting this very present, it's like a rising tide of authoritarianism, frankly.

Ted 20:03:
Yes.

Lauren 20:03
Right?

Ted 20:04
Yup.

Lauren 20:04:
And I feel like we--the murder mystery structure is a very specific thing that is like, something is wrong, law and order progress, and they right that wrong in the story. But I wanna kind of think about, well, in this world that we live in now, you have this really classic structure, but is that a structure that can be reflected in the world anymore? Because with the people, the dictators that we're seeing in different fields, they destroy that. They obliterate how we understand law and order to work. Like you just don't have these things that we find--that we find give us solace. 

Ted 20:56
Mm-hmm.

Lauren 20:56:
Like if their justice is an idea, that gives people solace. Those things are completely obliterated. (laughs)

Ted 21:03
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lauren 21:04:
So I think that this very standard structure, I think it does give readers a sense of solace. It's easy. But then I think that I'm going to try to destroy that in Act 3 because there's a character through the whole thing who's been, who is in my world an authoritarian figure, and he's going to say, okay, I followed the logic. I followed this very strict structure, you know, but I don't care.

Ted 21:36
Yep. Yep.

Lauren 21:36:
Because what's right in my opinion is right. And I think that there are real, very serious consequences to that.

Ted 21:44
Mm-hm.

Lauren 21:44
You know, I think that we have, you know, we are just in this period now where people don't, can't trust these classic structures. Can't trust, don't trust, you know, just the way that our government functions. And I think that we are not, I don't think we--yeah, it's, it's flawed, American democracy, I'll be the first person to say it is flawed.

Ted 22:11
Mm-hm.

Lauren 21:11
But I think that we have forgotten the value in it, and it is being completely destroyed. So, I mean, that's kind of where I'm, so that's where I'm getting. So I think, probably using that structure and the solace that I find from that structure is in some way an analogy for these things. But, you know, in nine months I might just be like, ah, forget that. It's too hard. (laughs) I'm just writing a classic mystery. Don't worry about it. Like, just all the stuff that I, I didn't really, I didn't pitch any of that to my editor because I'm just, you know, because I'm not sure that it's going to come through. I know that I'm like, also when I'm doing the clue trail, I'm also, there are often references to, like, how that there is this rise. You know, it's very present in the story, and I'm hoping that that subtext will come through, but you never know. (laughs)

Ted 23:09:
I love the way you explain that, though. I both love it and empathize with the idea of, yes, that's what you want to do. But then it's like, can I make that come out in the way naturally on the page to build--things like that are always far from a given. But I think you explained that so well and is super interesting and a very cool way to take, to put that different kind of spin and use a very traditional storytelling genre--because you talk about going back to Agatha Christie and things like that--and using it to do something different.

You talked a little bit earlier about the outlining from the TV world and that kind of coming into what you're doing here. Is there anything else that you feel like your experience in television is maybe making this writing different than when you were working on American Spy? I mean, we talked about American Spy was seven years and kind of drawn out. (Lauren laughs) And, you know, here using the outlining tools and things from the TV work. But is there anything else that you kind of you feel like almost like you have in your bag of tricks now that when you go to work on this? Or if it's not that, that you have to kind of shut off the TV writer part of your brain (Lauren laughs) and say, OK, this is, this is long -form novel fiction now, and I have to do this differently. One thing for me that--I love writing dialogue, and I feel like there's this, there's clearly, there's this direct connection between, like, if you're dialogue-heavy in your fiction, you can see, oh, I can imagine characters saying this on a screen or whatever. But I'm wondering, having that kind of different kind of experience, beyond the nuts and bolts of outlining, how it impacts you now that you're working on a new book.

Lauren 25:04:
Well, just a funny story that hopefully you'll appreciate and listeners of the podcast will appreciate is when I was in a--it is related. (both laugh) I will answer that question. But I was in a room, and I was given notes on an outline of the episode I was writing. And I wrote in the corner of it, STET, you know? (laughs)

Ted 25:31:
Which means leave as is. (laughs)

Lauren 25:33
Leave as is.

Ted 25:34
Leave as is if you don't, if you don't know what STET means. Yep.

Lauren 25:37:
I read the comment, and I wrote STET. And my coworker burst out laughing. (laughs) Like, this is not a thing you can say. You cannot say STET. Like, that is hilarious. I can tell that you are from publishing because that is not a--you don't get to say, I read this, leave it as it is.

Ted 25:57:
(laughing) Leave it as is.

Lauren 25:59:
(laughing) That's like just a fancy way--he riffed about it for a while. Like oh, it's just a fancy way of saying, you know, I read it, screw you. (Ted laughs) But you can't say that. You have to respond to notes if they come from your boss. It's a no STET world. So I guess maybe something that has changed for me is that I'm more aware of--more aware of, like, other people. I think I've always been aware of audience, you know, people reading, but I'm sort of, I think that I'm just, I think working in TV has made me more aware of how, like, just telling stories in a way that is more transactional--but more, almost like interactive. I don't know how to, I don't exactly know how to say that very well, but it's just, it just gives me--I just think about audience more. What do I want to do? I think the first with American Spy, I had a sense of an audience. I thought it was going to be a smaller audience. And I was like, I think I know who my audience will be. And these are the things that I think I really want to do. And if this audience was unhappy with what I was trying to do, then I would--then I'd be sad. With this book, I'm thinking, well, it is a murder mystery. And maybe my audience, I should think of my audience as a little bit of a bigger group. How does one appeal to that bigger group? Am I still doing the things that I want to do? Can I still do the things I want to do and make those people, make a larger group happy? I'm not sure, but I do think that--I'm not sure that I can, but I think that comes from TV.

Ted 28:10:
Mm-hmm.

Lauren 28:10:
Because it's just bigger, it's just a lot more people, frankly, watch TV than read books, sadly. (laughing)

Ted 28:18:
(laughing) I was gonna say, for better or for worse. 

Lauren 28:22
For better or worse, true.

Ted 28:24
We won't comment on which way, but it is true.

Lauren 28:26
Yeah, for better or worse, you know, and I get it. Because I know that there are days where the last thing I want to do is write a, you know, read a book.

Ted 28:39:
Yeah.

Lauren 28:40:
And my husband is like, he reads for pleasure, which is lovely. (both laugh) If I'm reading, it's because I'm reading--because I'm trying to, I'm reading murder mysteries now, because I, you know, you can't write a genre unless you know it. Or I'm reading because I have to blurb something, you know, it's not, it's not reading in the same way anymore. There's not a lot of time for it, so.

Ted 29:11:
My wife and I have a perpetual argument over, she is a huge, huge, huge reader. And I always say, well, my reading time gets cut in two because of my writing time. And she always says, that doesn't count. It's not the same thing. I'm like, no, do you realize how much I could read (both laugh) if I wasn't trying to, like, make these things at the same time? I have to be very surgical in what I choose to read because I love reading, but yes, it does take up a big chunk of the time when I could be reading.

Lauren 29:38:
Yeah, and also when you're in working mode, you're reading in a different way.

Ted 29:42:
Yup.

Lauren 29:42:
It's really hard to shut off that part of your brain that's like, I'm reading this for structure. I'm reading this to see, oh, where was the surprise in this? What did this author do? I imagine it's like an architect looking at a building and being like, okay, what did they do to figure this out? So that's kind of, that's not exactly a thing that you're doing to kick back on the beach, you know? It's a little bit, it's a little bit work too. It's hard to shut that off. Because if you find something that's like, if you're really enjoying a book and you're like, that's amazing. Is there anything I could steal here, you know?

Ted 30:18:
(both laugh) I just had that experience with the last novel I read. I was like, oh, wow, I really like the way she structured this with these flashbacks. And I was like, how could I use this now?

Lauren 30:29:
Yeah, so it's like--that's like the big compliment.

Ted 30:33:
Yep, it is.

Lauren 30:34:
You know, as much as, but that means that you're not treating it-- even if you go into it thinking, okay, this is just, that's it, I'm shutting off everything. You still are like, oh, this is, that's good (laughs), let me see if I can borrow that. So yeah, it's different. It's different.

Ted 30:55:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm excited. I know you have a lot of work ahead of you, but I'm excited to read this book when it comes out. In the meantime, if you're listening to this, it's been out a few years now, but go get American Spy because I loved reading American Spy as well. Where can people find you online? What's the best way to find you?

Lauren 31:15:
Oh, lauren-wilkinson.com.

Ted 31:18:
Perfect. Awesome. Well, Lauren, thank you. I really enjoyed this. And thank you so much for talking to me about it. And best of luck as you are heading headlong into the beginning again.

Lauren 31:29:
(both laughing) Yes, I--thank you. I need that luck. (laughs)

Ted 31:36:
(voiceover) Thanks for listening. New episodes of Working Drafts come out on the 15th of the month. For more, visit my website, thetedfox.com.