You're listening to a CNA podcast. Welcome back to another episode of the Work It podcast. It's Tiffany and Gerald, your hosts. Graduation season is coming up and a big congrats to potential fresh grads out there. Well, this will mark the start of a brand new chapter for everyone and it comes with the big question, what's next? Well today we're diving into one of the more competitive career. The routes that fresh graduates might aim for a graduate program.
But before we get into what this is, Gerald, what was your first job when you graduated and how did you land it? Wow, it's going to take me back down the memory lane quite a little bit. I think I graduated somewhere around 2009 and that was the subprime crisis. It was global recession and I remembered my batchmates, they were all Really worried about not having a job after graduation. So thankfully for myself, I was offered an opportunity at a
place where I interned at. Same here. I interned at CNA and then when I graduated in 2007, they offered me a full-time job. I think at that point of time, my batch was more of wherever a company offered you, if you didn't mind it, you would just go into it and that's why internships are very important for us at that point of time. Yeah, I think it's still
very important nowadays, right? We covered that in a different podcast where We had students who are doing multiple internships and I think today the path for fresh graduate into a job is not so straightforward anymore. It's not just finding a job, they maybe have internships in between, apprenticeships, short term contracts as well. There's lots of ways for them to start to enter the market and I think somewhere along this mix, we do hear this term graduate programs, also known as management,
associate programs, management traineeships. Yeah, when I first heard the term graduate programs, honestly, I thought it was the postgraduate program. like furthering your studies, but then I realized, oh, it's not. It's a full-time role, lasts around 12 to 24 months and they're often marketed to fresh graduates as a career acceleration program where you can have advancement opportunities and in some cases even direct access to decision makers within the company.
So it sounds really, really good, really promising, a lot of potential if today you're thinking long term for your career, right? Management Associate program sounds like it's a thing to go for, but such programs really the golden ticket for fresh graduates. And if you're considering one, what are some of the
things you should be thinking about? So to help us dig deeper into what graduate programs are designed to do and what they actually deliver, we've invited Samuel Beddy, who is the ASEAN people consulting leader at Erns and Yang, to unpack for us what these structured management associate programs actually offer and whether they are worth it. So welcome, Samir.
I'm very excited to be here to talk. About one of the most premium programs for
graduates, the premium. OK, let's break it down a little bit. What do graduate programs offer that is very different from a regular entry level job?
I think the beauty of a graduate program is it perfectly brings into the employment landscape. So what it's trying to say is from a graduate, you normally get a job, which is then you move towards employment and then you work towards the organizational goals that you're striving to fulfill, right? The graduate program allows you to start your lifelong learning journey after your education as well, because now you start learning. With the company, you start learning what the company's purpose is.
You have multidisciplinary experiences. You sometimes contribute to very strategic projects, you have access to management, right? So you continue to learn, but at the same time you start contributing. So I think it's the perfect mix that allows an individual to move from learning to employment in a premium form or manner.
But some people might say, when I started my first job, I was also learning, I was picking up the. as well. So what is the difference between the learning that you mentioned earlier on and the learning I did when I started my work?
So every new hire that the company has has to have an articulated way to help them start contributing, right? I think the management associate program or the graduate program that we're talking of, has it designed in a little more scientific manner, because normally there's a cohort of individuals that come in, they go through That learning journey, there's a bit of peer learning that happens.
There's clarity not only with the individual supervisor for that short stint, but it's also with the entire organization.
I mean, you use the word premium, my thoughts were, if it's so good, why is it not for everybody? Shouldn't this be like maybe the opportunity for all new hires?
So, all new hires need to do learning, need to do onboarding, need to understand the organization, right? I think this is a cream of the crop kind of a program. There are benefits both to an organization as well as to employees. From an organization perspective, it helps them win the war for talent that has been going on for many years now. This helps them attract.
The best quality talent that they have. So if you started offering this to everyone, firstly, an organization would not have the likely resources to be able to manage this for every hire that they make. This is those hires that they believe are going to perform higher and have potential as well to be able to do this. This doesn't mean that if you join an organization.
From the normal route, you can achieve those. But in terms of the perspective of offering this in a scientific multidisciplinary approach, giving individuals the access to management, instilling new blood and new thinking to help the organization move forward, and also to enable the careers of those management graduates.
What do organizations look for? To determine whether somebody is supposed to be in this group.
The reality is what organizations look for has slightly changed over the last few years as well. Right now, what organizations primarily look for is resilience, lifelong learning, because you need people to invest in this journey, believe that there's alignment between the purpose of the organization and the purpose of those individuals. So the reality is that learning is soon going to be the new dollar. That means it's actually more important.
Then the salary, the benefits, the bonus that a company can offer you. And this program actually provides learning in its truest form or manner, which helps you understand it both from a theoretical as well as a practical perspective and help you implement it across the various divisions, subdivisions that you have access to in the management program, right? So this learning opportunity is what actually differentiates this from a normal recruit.
But do you think all of that can be measured? At the start when they are selecting these people to join the program at an age where maybe they're only in their twenties. I mean some people are late bloomers, right? Or I would argue that somebody that you select in your graduate program may be book smart enough to say the things you want to hear from them in the interview.
And they don't turn out to be like that. So when it comes to these management programs, is it always going to be a situation where the right people will join the program? Tiffany,
you ask a very pertinent question and very difficult to answer. The word that I would be wary for is always, there is no guarantee. Or there is no certainty that will always happen. But yes, organizations do look for certain qualities, specific competencies or skill sets. If you generalize it, lifelong learning, resilience, teamwork, collaboration are pretty much some of the areas that they wanted to focus on, along with some technical skills and capabilities that
they would look for, right? The reality is that the graduates that go through this program have better access to learning opportunities. Now, how they use this access, how they. Implemented is what will help differentiate them from someone who joins the normal recruitment route. Not to say that someone who's normally recruited is ignored by an organization. In fact,
an organization is invested in that individual as well. So does need to give some level of access, some level of learning to ensure that the individual is successful as well.
But then it would be harder for them to even try and get to that same level with the same access, right?
They may not have the exposure to the multidisciplinary approach. They may not have the same level of understanding of the industry in which they operate, which typically a management associate program will go through. They may not have the access to multiple different business division leaders.
But this doesn't stop them from wanting that access. In fact, if a graduate joins not in the management associate program, but joins as a recruiter in an organization, and they clamor for all those reasons, it's also a proactiveness from that individual. So it may go towards their benefit. I would like to say it's probably easier if you're in the management association.
Program, but it's not a guarantee for the other recruits that don't join this program, there's still access to learning, access to career opportunities and therefore, they can still flourish in the organization.
I think I'm also reminded that there are other programs within the company. There's other leadership programs, management programs for staff that are existing. And this is what Samel was talking about. Employees who really want to grow, want to learn, be part of the management team, but they didn't get through the management associate program. So there's supposed to be other pathways within the company for existing employees to travel through.
So I think if a company has multiple programs like this, then I think it takes care of all the employees' needs and not just all the future leaders are going to come from this one program. I I guess coming from the the group of people who are not part of this management program, we can understand that some of them might feel this premium group of people are kind of like the white horse, right? They are treated as very special, they are treated as one day possibly going
to be my boss and everything. I think it makes the dynamics a little bit. I wouldn't say awkward but different, right? And there's a sense that anyone who is part of the graduate program might be measured differently. You're always going to be measured according to whether you are good enough to be my boss one day. So is this sort of program almost in a sense kind of Setting them up for failure if they don't meet these targets.
I wouldn't think it's setting them up for failure. They are hired into certain levels. They're expected to perform at the higher end of those levels because they have that access and there is that expectation from those employees. But at the same time, they are in a loop by which they're given consistent and regular feedback. So you really find in the management associated Program that things go totally off track for individuals because
the feedback loop is very strong. They're counseled towards ensuring that they can achieve the stretch goals that they're all part of.
So after suppose someone goes through the management associate program, they've gone through all the experiences, they've got the feedback, they've learned a lot. At the end of it, how many of them do eventually make it into senior management roles and is there an industry benchmark or number that defines whether the management program. It's effective. So
I think making into senior management roles is still far away for them, right? And they have multiple layers. I think the management associate program is a defined program for a period of time. Typically between 6 and 2 years, depending on the organization and the skill sets that they are trying to help the individuals acquire. Once they graduate from them, they move into roles that test them, stretch them, that allow them to showcase their learning and to help the.
Organizations succeed in a very competitive environment. One of the measures that, you know, organizations could use to see if these programs are effective is the retention rate of these graduates, because again, if you are hiring cream of the crop that goes through this program with you, it's not that you've hired them for life. They also have a marketability in the external environment. So it's important for organizations to continually showcase uh the fact that these individuals
are important to their success. So retention rate is critical. One way of measuring this is to see whether these graduates are able to achieve the stretch expectations that you have set for them in performance. And then over a period of time, see whether they are able to move across the career hierarchy maybe faster or in an accelerated
manner than some of their peers. From an individual perspective, I would say stretch expectations for them may cause A little bit of stress, but sometimes the stress and anxiety allows you to have adrenaline flowing and deliver better than average outcomes and create exceptional outcomes.
Is it always a guarantee that after the traineeship, you would get a full-time position, a permanent position in the company? Because I've heard of cases where you can complete the management associate program and then you're dropped. You're dropped off and you're not even employed. Yeah.
So, if your performance levels in the management associate program are at expectations, more than likely, I'd say it's nearly a given that you will find a role in the organization. But having said that, there may be certain roles in the organization that they may offer to the management associate program graduates, and they may not be the same preferences from the individuals. For example, you may want a role
in sales, but there's only a role available in marketing. So, reality, there may be differences in the preferences for individuals, for certain global organizations that run this across regions globally as well. There may be different roles in markets that you may be offered, which may not align with what the individuals may want. So it's always a supply and demand rationale that we need to consider.
And is a promotion always guaranteed and will your promotion be fast tracked when you compare it with somebody who is hired on a normal recruitment role?
So again, I go back to the point that having gone through this program, you should have a better appreciation of what the industry in which the organization operates. The strength of the organization, the purpose of the organization, the way it engages with its customers, the way it makes money. So you have a very diverse view of
that organization. And thus, I think this is about having access to that and therefore being able to grow your career at a faster rate than maybe an individual that went through it in a short 1 to 3 month onboarding,
where they may not have that level of access. They may understand everything, but they don't have the access to various divisions, various senior managers, and therefore, Because of the access, you are expected to understand the organization a lot better and therefore deliver performance at a much higher level. And this is what then accelerates the career growth.
What about salaries though? I think people will be very interested in hearing this. Are they on a different track? Do they start with a higher salary?
There are organizations that offer similar salary to the. graduates they hire not on the program versus the ones they hire on the program, but they could start with a higher salary. Like I said, again, the expectation to move career levels is higher. So over time, if that does come through, there's a difference in the salary numbers that do come through because people are performing at a higher level or they are growing their careers at a faster rate.
I think also that's say a program is 23 years long. The opportunity cost of being on a management program, right. A typical employee will have clocked 3 years of solid experiences within the department, whereas the management associate goes through 6 months each time, they don't really have the depth. Yeah, so perhaps that's what the higher salary can actually compensate for. But then I guess it doesn't sound fair, right? Because you don't have the depth in terms of being in
individual departments for 6 months. It just looks like, yeah, you get a sense of the whole business operation, but you don't have depth, but at the same time, salary is always accelerated and growing at a faster pace than everybody else. Where is the buy-in from the rest of the people within the company that this program is a program that benefits not just the entire company, but benefits the average worker in the long term if this
person is on an accelerated program. In my opinion, I guess when you are paying someone a little bit more, there are multiple reasons why for the employee itself on the management program having to uproot every time and relearn and learn, it's a little bit stressful. That's one, of course, and expectations to perform. People view you differently. They expect you to perform at
higher levels. You're expected to react faster, change faster, and all this working towards hopefully the potential of being stretched into a certain leadership position in the future. So I think when you look at everything in total, then that's why they have to pay more.
The beauty of the program lies in the breadth of experience they provide to the individuals, right? But the real success comes once they graduate out of the program and are in a full-time job. Where they expected to show their depth in that function in which they're working in. So, for example, no organization achieves what they want to achieve by one particular function. It's always a combination of multiple functions that the organization has. So if you're on sales, you need to understand what
marketing does. You need to understand what corporate services, finance, HR, IT kind of delivers. You need to understand what's the brand positioning of the organization. So, it's that depth that allows them to be more Successful in the job that they operate in. It's that bread that they get. So I think the reality of the rubber hits the road once they actually are out of the program and start contributing in a full-time job.
I think this conversation about the management program makes me start to think that actually our expectations of a person on this program becoming a leader is not that direct, you know. there's actually a long distance. Once you finish the program, there's still a lot you have to do before you can make your way up there. So I think the perception that we connect these two things together could be
a little bit too close and too tight, right? Or maybe we should really look at it as employers, number one, trying to look out for the best talent first and then trying to harness that potential, stretch them. And those who are able to be stretched them maybe see what happens. We know that for the majority of the employees, when they see a management associate, those perceptions hang very quickly. That's why I thought this is something that maybe we should really think a little bit deeper,
a little bit more. Does every management associate really become a leader at the end? And what sort of leadership capabilities do they bring to the table as well? Let's say for example, if I'm 25 and I don't have a healthy mindset of what leadership looks like. Then I would think to myself, I will get to department head by the time I'm 30 and then I will tell you guys what you guys have to do and how you guys have to think because none of
you are as smart as me. And then there are those where they have a very healthy mindset of leadership where they see it as a servant leadership and they are there to serve the company, help people to achieve
the best in their career health. So I think that's where It's not easy trying to not just see out the people with the right mindset, but to also as you said, give them the right feedback along the way to say, hey, you know what, we need to stretch you in this area or we need to challenge certain mindsets that you have of what leadership looks like.
Organizations provide these management graduates with the right to access to even senior leaders so that they understand how leaders operate in that organization. They can pick up certain skills by which they can manage difficult circumstances, manage people, deal with peers, deal with people who are junior to them as well as deal upwards. You know, the learning model has been fairly well researched and pulled through. Actually, 70% of the learning that people get are on the job.
So, these graduates are doing a job and therefore they get that learning. 20% of that learning they get is through mentoring, to counseling, to coaching, and it's only 10% that comes in through formal programs that they want to run. So, the management program provides all of this. The 20% becomes enlarged because you have more mentors, more counselors, more coaches. The 70% on the job is again very stretched because it could be multidisciplinary in nature.
I mean, it sounds definitely that you are a big fan of this program. What do you think is still lacking when it comes to this management associate program and that you feel in the next 5 years, companies can focus on
I think what will be interesting to watch out for is today, you know, technology, GN AI AI is transforming everything that we work and operate in, right? So the reality is how organizations start helping these graduates to Become the epicenter of the technology in the organization, because that will then help the organization propel a lot faster, as well as help individuals to grow their careers a
lot faster. These programs will need to now inculcate both AI Gen AI technology in one of the key areas or aspects of the program that they run in the organization. And organizations are going to be the schools of tomorrow.
I'm just very curious as a last question. Can I, let's say, work for 2 years or 3 years first at an entry level and then decide I will want to join a graduate program, then leave the job that I have, maybe join another company, but as part of their graduate program. Is it possible or are graduate programs only solely for fresh graduates?
Uh, depends. On the organization, but there may be opportunities for individuals to join another organization and join into the management graduate program. The answer is it depends, but it definitely does show from an individual the lifelong learning mindset if they're willing to even after working 2 or 3 years to go back into a management graduate program.
Because the pay might be a little bit lower, is that right?
Potentially,
I mean, depends on the company. moving into. So this is one of the examples that I had one person who who was exactly like that. He was considering to go on a management associate program after working 2 years and then he realized the salary was different. So even though management associates pay more at that level, but he realized that after 2 years of working, his pay was actually higher. Yeah, I guess also not
all management associate programs pay like super good. Maybe some of them they do pack it at more. More rates.
I just like to say this to all graduates, don't chase dollars early in your life, chase learning, and dollars will chase you later in your life.
Good advice, good advice. Wouldn't be good if HR or if the organization starts to become a little bit more transparent about communicating such programs. I think helping people to see that these employees on the program, they are not coming into Lord over you. You know, they have to work really hard. They are also learning about themselves and they're also growing. Maybe they just were able to express some positive qualities in a better way earlier in life, but they still have to
work very hard for it. So I thought that for an organization that has management associate program, the ethos of the company of you work hard. And then you can get promoted, you can become a leader. It must be the main thing. They have to learn to decouple and explain this clearly. Yeah, well said. Yeah, thank you so much, Samir, for coming and sharing your views on this. I mean, I'm not entirely convinced that the program is perfect, but like any program at any organization.
I think there's always sort of work in progress and it only can get better. I'm glad that we covered points to help people who are at that stage of life where they can consider if they want to be part of the graduate program, what kind of accelerated pathways they can take, but also at the same time be very cognizant of the fact that it's not an easy path for them to. The expectations will be very high. So thank you so much for laying all the cards
on the table for us, Samir. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hello, thanks for joining us again. It's our Ask Me Anything segment. We love your questions. So do send it to us. We're at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. Now today's question was sent in by our listener Jane. Jane's question is short, sweet, but she didn't give us a lot of information as to what she's struggling with.
But let's unpack it a little bit more. Jane says with the current situation, do we stay put in our job despite all the possible pain points one could imagine or just look for another and quit this current painful one. Wow, Jane sounds very, very unhappy. Yes, yes, I can feel it in the question a lot of pain. Yeah, there's two states that she's in, in one place she's feeling like she needs to move on because it's so painful. Then the other place that she's at is.
She's too scared to move on because she feels scared that there's no opportunities for her or maybe she's worried that if she goes into the next job, it may not give her the same stability and that's why she's stuck. She can't make a change and she also doesn't like where she's at now. Yeah, so I think we have to make a few assumptions here like you say, she's not happy and she wants out. 2, sounds like what she is so fearful. about is that the job market isn't great for her,
and she's worried she can't find something. You know, we talked about this before we started recording. This is a very, very, very deep and big question, but what would be your advice if we were to look at it from a very general point of view? I think generally speaking, we have to test some assumptions. So for example, some assumptions we have to test is of the job. Market, right? Are there opportunities that would be good for you or is it really as terrible as you think?
I guess if she wants to stay in her current job environment, some sectors might not be doing well, right? But if she can look at some transferable skills that she has, she may actually open herself up to different sectors where she can find work. So I think testing some assumptions about the job market, is it really as bad as she thinks? It's very, very important, right? Then the other part of it is, of course, looking at her pain points in the company. How deep are
these pain points? What's causing these pain points? Are these pain points addressable? Can Jane do something about making challenges at work disappear or make it just a little bit better for herself. But most of us, it's too much work to think like this, right? We are used to the daily hamster wheel of just Surviving. So Jane is in a kind of a survival mode. She's just kicking the can down a little bit every day, but it's painful. I think also has Jane tried to
sort of address some of these pain points? Perhaps she could have and she is still not getting any progress out of that, but also if she hasn't, then it will be a good time to talk to somebody. About it because it's very difficult. I mean, I've been in a situation before where you are stuck in that, you know, silo, where you just feel that everything is against you and there's no other possible solutions because you haven't really spoken to other people who might give you
certain solutions that may work. Yeah, I think when we look at the pinpoints, there are some that we can address and some we cannot. So for example, if we are working in a job and a lot of these pinpoints come from, let's say a toxic work environment, you got really, really nasty boss
and you realize that you can't change people, right? You can't change the culture by yourself, then those become pinpoints that is not addressable and if those are the pain not addressable, then maybe Jane should really go and check out the job market, right? But if today the pain points are self-inflicted.
Within our control, for example, being burned out from work, not setting clear boundaries, setting clear boundaries at work or maybe you feel really very disengaged with your work, your work, you've been doing it for let's say 10 number of years and you're bored and then doing the same work again feels like you're not being rewarded. Or maybe it could be you feel like you are not being treated fairly because you've been passed over for promotions for a number of years.
And then this become painful, right? So if those are the top pin points within Jane, then perhaps it's important to address those things because some of these can carry forward into any other job that she moves into in the future. One thing that we are very aware of is that we are not here to tell Jane to quit your job just because it's painful and we're not here to give you advice to say don't worry, there will be a job out there.
For you and everything because we recognize that not everyone is in a privileged position to be able to just quit a job and look for something else and have enough finances to tie yourself through. So I think the first thing would be to, before you actually get to that stage, look at your finances to see whether there are sort of emergency savings that can tide you through a few.
while you are job hunting and if not, then start on it now so that you have at least a goal that you're working towards and it takes your mind away from any of the possible pain that you're currently holding in your job. And I think I would suggest is to also identify silver linings. Yes, the job may be painful, but I think on a daily basis if you were to break it down, there could be things that you
Thankful for. It could be like at least you have one nice colleague or your office pantry is well stocked. So I would say look for these silver linings that can get you through the day while you plan for your exit strategy. Yeah, so I think for Jane really deeper consideration, you need to really lay out all the cards, look deep into the pin points, why is it like that, look deep into the assumptions. And then start to maybe decide what you want to do.
Do you want to tackle the pinpoints? Are they within your control? Do you want to challenge some assumptions that means that you have to do some homework, you do some research. Or could be you just end up not doing anything and just feeling stuck, right? So, Jane, my advice to you is be brave, to investigate deeper, don't just kick down the can and don't wait anymore. If this is really the feeling of being stuck, I don't know for how long already, it could be years.
So maybe this is the right time to do something about it. Well Jane, I hope our conversation here has been helpful to you. I think you know deep down in your gut, what is the best option for you and be brave, take your time to get there. If like Jane, you have a work-related question, do write into us. We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. We're also on Spotify, Me Listen, Apple Podcasts and YouTube where a video version of this is at.
The team behind the Work It podcast is Hou Pei Ning, Juanini Johari, Joan Chan, Saya Win, Allison Jenner, and Shahza Talela. Video by Hanida Amin. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a great work week ahead and remember, life's too short to just focus on work.