Why is Jane Austen still so relevant to women today?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. You sell your car with Carvana. Get a real offer in minutes. Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot. So fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here? Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. I'm Martha Stewart and I believe the best gifts...

are not only beautiful, but useful every single day. And Lenox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. and their Lenox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. Spice Village transforms everyday spices into inspired memories filled with warmth and joy all year long.

Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection at lennox.com slash spicevillage. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast.

Hello and welcome to a special programme where we celebrate the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birth. Yes, that extraordinary woman was born on the 16th of December 17. So this hour, we're going to delve into the world that Jane was born into and explore why her writing has such a following around the world and why it also feels so relevant to women today. Is that you?

Why does she speak to you? And how? What? text is it that speaks to your heart. You can text the programme the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note yeah they weren't around in the day use the number 03 700 100 444. Now, whether it's Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Emma, Persuasion, to name just a few of Jane Austen's novels, they are cultural touchstones.

She is a master of exploring love, marriage, class, money with legendary heroines and a good dose of humour and sharp commentary on society too. But not just British. She resonates globally. We're going to hear why Austen is so popular in Pakistan and Japan. And maybe if you've never read a Jane Austen book, well, we also have recommendations on where to start and speaking. of starting let me turn

to my first guests. With me in studio is the author Jill Hornby, who is president of the UK Jane Austen Society. She has been so inspired by Jane Austen that her best-selling novel, Miss Austen, follows the life of Jane Austen's sister. the very important Cassandra. And her most recent novel, The Elopement, is also based on the lives of the extended Austen family. Good morning. Good morning.

Also with us, Dr Zoe McGee. Her book is Courting Disaster. It was published last month and explores the theme of sexual consent through the lens of classic novels. And that includes... Jane Austen. Good morning to you Zoe. Good morning. Now for our radio listeners I have to let them know I am fully invested in today's programme. So much so that I'm sitting here at the Woman's Hour desk in full Regency.

Regalia. Yes, there will be pictures on our socials at BBC Woman's Hour. Jill, do you approve? You look perfectly enchanting. Your dance card will be full. You know, this is what I'm hoping for. I do have my fan. I've been learning, you know, what I can say. Signalling. Signalling with my fan and I'm ready to go. But for the next hour instead, it's all...

women, all about Jane Austen. Jill, when did you first come across Austen? Oh, at school. I had one of those unbelievable, life-changing English teachers. Shout out to Mrs Evendovich, who was teaching us Mansfield Park. And it was a passionate Janeite. And she infected me and I think most of the class, actually. Janeite. Yes. That's the term. Janeite. Yeah, that's who we are. Zoe, you're also a Janeite. When did you become one?

By accident. When I was about eight, I had one of these like children's treasury books with extracts and they had a bit of Jane Eyre when she's at boarding school. And I thought, oh, great boarding school book. bought Jane Austen thinking it was Jane Eyre and have been very grateful for that mistake ever since. So a Janeite mistake. Yes. That made you a Janeite. But let's talk about this world that Jane Austen was part of, entered.

250 years ago. A couple of facts. The population of Great Britain was about 8 million. It had been a difficult year. April had seen the outbreak of the American War of Independence. There was a deadly flu in the UK that would kill 40,000 people that winter. Jane was born into relative comfort. Jill, how would a young Jane have celebrated her birthday? Were birthday celebrations a thing? Well, no, there wasn't a great personality thing in the...

sort of Austin family at that time. It was marked, marked in letters, and the family that were around would have had a meal together. There's a mention of Cassandra having made her a shawl, but people were always making... each other things as gifts. And I think it was given on that. There was one birthday where she went to a ball, but that was because there happened to be a ball on. It wasn't a ball in aid of Jane Austen.

So they were quite modest affairs, really. She does have one of those awkwardly close to Christmas birthdays. She does, she does. On the other hand, her rich brother... Edward, his rich wife, always used to give the whole household and all the children the day off. And that was a massive day of celebration. So I think it might have been an economic judgment how much you're...

birthday was going to be celebrated or not. I mentioned Cassandra Jane's sister, as have you, and you write books inspired by the extended Austen family. Tell us a little bit more about, I suppose, the importance of Cassandra and some of the other members. You mentioned a brother as well. Yes, well, I think the whole team are... It was called the sort of cradle of her genius, the Steventon rectory she was born, she grew up in. She was the seventh of eight children.

Her parents were kind of the perfect genetic concoction to create somebody like Jane. Her father was a brilliant scholar. A poor orphan who'd been paid by an uncle to go to school, went to Oxford, became a really distinguished scholar. His wife was obviously not educated on account of having been born a woman. But she had what she herself called a good sprack wit and was a very natural writer. I mean, even in her busy household with...

eight children and cow to milk and parishioners to look after. She would write her recipes in rhyme and endlessly write poems for no reason whatsoever. So I think she was a very sort of natural. writer there were six boys and two girls jane came seventh um cassandra was older by three years and was thrilled to get a sister at last in this great big sea of boys. And it looks like Jane adored her back throughout her life. Such a massive presence that was there in her creativity and her day.

How would you describe the social climate of early 19th century England for women? I mean, it was... There have been like quite a big period of unrest globally. We had the American War of Independence. We've had the revolution in France. There have been all sorts of kind of tensions with Ireland. And women in that time were growing.

living through this change and with a lot of the men being off fighting and not necessarily coming back. And also in a time where they weren't necessarily given a lot of the freedoms to explore. options for themselves, especially if you were in that more genteel class where, like Jane, it's not really the done thing to have a job, to work, to kind of do much with your...

When you come from a certain social class that is quite comfortable. Yes, exactly. If you're less comfortable, you are a bit busy. Yes, you're out and you're working for those more wealthy families. You have written a book about consent in the region. era, which is fascinating because we often hear about the proposals to get married, for example. But what would a woman be consenting to if in fact she accepted a marriage proposal? It's something that basically tyranny.

It's sort of how some other philosophers talked about it. When you got married, you handed over sexual consent to your husband at the point of marriage and legally you couldn't retract that. at any point from then. It also would give him ownership over any children you might have and kind of control over your finances more broadly. You wouldn't have a legal existence. So if you ever wanted to take a case to court, you'd need your husband to take it for you.

it very much kind of took over your legal identity as an individual. But isn't it so interesting that 250 years after her birth, consent... It's so much part of the conversations right now, such a part of modernity. I think it's something that's never really gone away. It's something that people have been talking about. as long as they've had a platform to talk about.

But I think we tend to think about Austin's time as being less focused on that because the 18th century loves its euphemisms, it loves its doublespeak. And I think now we're in a phase where we're having that conversation more openly again, which is great. And important. What was considered a good match? Anyone economically superior to you or with a title that was potentially better than yours. You kind of want to marry nobility and money as much as possible.

Marry up. Marry up if you can. But Jane did not get married Zoe. No. Why? I think something she really advocates for in a lot of her books and in a lot of her letters to her various kind of nieces. is not settling for someone who isn't going to improve your life. She doesn't, I think, want to give up the independence that she does have.

It's not a small thing to kind of hand over that much control over yourself. I think all of her heroines very much look for something that improves their own life, both personally and economically. How do you see that, Jill, Jane's reasons for not getting married? Well, she never had a decent offer. I think that is very important. It was a flirtation when she was 17.

There's a rumour that there was a gentleman by the seaside, but it's no more than sort of, I think it's family apocryphal. And then there was... But again, that comes to us from a very unreliable sister-in-law who always had her own reasons for giving stories about Jane. So the thing is, she...

wasn't particularly attractive. She was slightly cursed with a superior intelligence, which did not make her very marriageable. She could see through people the minute she saw them, and no man particularly wanted a woman who could see through him. time and she didn't have a penny to her name and you know so it's putting all that together putting that together it wasn't going to happen but also to put it in context because

All of her novels end at the altar. We think that that was the destiny for every woman. Actually fewer than... 40% probably of women got married in those days. Her books have been very distorting for us. But of course she died so young at just 41 in 1817. Who knows whether they might have changed, I wonder, as life went on.

You have described, Jill, Jane living in a spinster cluster, which I just love that term, towards the end of her life. What is a spinster cluster exactly? Is it as fun as it sounds? Well, I think it depends who the spinsters are. I think that's crucial. She was very lucky in her spinsters. She was with Cassandra, her beloved sister, Martha, her beloved best friend, and her mother. but you know into each life some rain must fall and she they are the spinster cluster was a natural kind of

It came out of the fact that there were so many single women and so many poor women. As Jane has said, the argument for... single women have the most dreadful propensity for being poor. So, you know, if you've had...

If there were four women and they all had a pittance, if they all put their pittance in the same pot, they could have a house and they could share the duties. And if they were companionable people, what heaven. And for Jane, I think it was utopia. She was able to write. It's so interesting because I have... looked into those female only.

living arrangements, often towards the end of life with older women. They live longer now than men and some deciding on that as the way that they want to live out their days. So fascinating that Jane was doing it there.

getting in touch human nature doesn't change though in austin's day money was more prominent than sex it's now it's all sex but money remains just as important that we pretend it isn't so says barbara lots of messages coming in thank you very much 84844 but i was asking last week you know if you wanted to get in touch with your austin stories a number of you did let us begin with rose for me jane austin represents pure joy

She concludes each tale of love and life with the perfect ending. How I have wished for those endings. I have lived vicariously in that happiness and relished the moments. I introduced my book club to Jane Austen recently with persuasion. The choice was a resounding success. Life would be poorer and less colourful.

without Jane Austen. Oh, I could totally hear Rose Reed be the narrator for one of Jane Austen's books, couldn't you? We also heard from Myra. My favourite Jane Austen book and series has to be Pride and Prejudice. The Jennifer L. Colleen Firth production was wonderful and with a stellar cast. No one put a foot wrong. It was riveting. We will also talk about adaptations later this hour. Let's also hear from Anna.

I arranged my own Jane Austen tribute event, my 30th birthday party. Everyone had characters, performed short scripts and danced reels. It was all very elegant. Naturally, I appointed myself Elizabeth Bennet for the evening, but alas, there was no Mr Darcy. Fast forward a couple of years and I was dating a man I rather liked.

We met at Dancing Reels in West London, and though not in possession of a great fortune, he was clearly in want of a wife, and he became my Mr Darcy. And he still is, 21 years on. Ha ha, Anna. Thank you for that message as well. Thanks to all of you for getting in touch with your Austin moments, 84844. I do see, I'm not sure who the listener is, but they did send me a picture of their dog, Rosie, dressed.

Jane Austen's 250th anniversary in Regency costume. Looks like maybe a cockapoo. It's even got a little bonnet. So it goes far and wide. Now, so some of you... perhaps like Rosie's owner, will be avid Austen readers. But there will be others who have read perhaps just one of the books at school, for example. But for those who haven't read Austen at all... There will be others that watched the brilliant adaptations, as we were hearing from Myrna there.

For those that would like to know more about the chronology of Austen and how they were published, which is different to when they were written. Let us go through. Zoe, quick summary of Austen's first novel, Sense and Sensibility, published in 1811. So Sense and Sensibility is the story of the Dashwood sisters, Eleanor and Marianne, who have very, very different life philosophies and views on what...

makes the ideal husband. When they think they each find their ideal man, they discover that all is not quite as it seems. Jill, Pride and Prejudice, published 1813. Mr and Mrs Bennett have five daughters, no sons, and an estate that is going to be passed out of the family when Mr Bennett dies. They are all on the edge of a sort of financial disaster. They've got to get married. Two gentlemen come into the neighbourhood, one worth 5,000 a year and the other worth 10,000 a year. It's...

That's the one that I had to do at school, which I loved, I have to say. Laurence Olivier, though, was the adaptation that I was hooked on. Next one, Mansfield Park, 1814. So this is a story of Fanny Price, who grows up as the poor relation in Mansfield Park, the home of her wealthy aunt and uncle. The entire family is horrendous to her throughout the novel. And rather than being a great love story, this to me is the story of this...

painfully shy girl finally standing up for herself and saying no to a marriage that would make her miserable. Emma, 1816 Jill. Emma, unlike every other Austen heroine, handsome, clever and rich. doesn't have to get married, doesn't need a husband, so she doesn't want a husband. A man comes into the neighbourhood who she fancies rather adores her, but off... Off screen, as it were, from that romance, there is a best friend to romance plot.

which people might be familiar with from various adaptations. Northanger Abbey, the first novel to be published after Jane's death, Zoe. So this is her take on the Gothic. It's a parody novel. It follows a very young, naive Catherine Moore. Holland who is taken to Bath by some wealthy friends and she proceeds to live through a load of the tropes from the gothic novels but with Austen's very

wry and witty take on it. And it all starts when she's mistaken for a heroine who is much, an heiress, sorry, who is much wealthier than she is. And Jill, Austen's last finished novel was Persuasion, 1818. Second chance, this novel. Anne Elliot, when she was young, was proposed to by a man she loved, who loved her, but he had no fortune and no station. She was persuaded out of the match by her godmother.

The novel opens when she's 27. She's ancient, lost her bloom, as we are keep being told. And he comes back now rich, respectable, but too proud. to come back. Pride and fortune, two words that are often used within Austen's novels. Well, thank you very much for that quick fire through the chronology of the novels. I do want to let people know that later on Front Row, they will be taking a close...

look at the power of Jane Austen's writing. That will be 7.15. Do tune in for that. Jill, do you have a favourite? Emma. Zoe? Mansfield Park. Aha. Why did, Jill, Jane publish under a pseudonym?

It wasn't unusual for women. There were women who were publishing under their own name. The example of living under fame was not actually very attractive. You know, Fanny Burney was like a celebrity. Somebody like Jane Austen, she was a... Very quiet woman. She happened to be a genius. She happened to be the best writer writing. She was quiet. She never met a writer. She only met her own publisher once when her...

Brother was too ill to go. She never went to a literary party. She didn't tell her neighbours. She wrote the book that they were reading. Fame was abhorrent to her. She was a woman of the, you know, of the vicarage. And she couldn't think of anything worse than being famous. Did people suspect it was her? Towards the end, she had an ambitious brother who started to blab.

And, you know, but it was, she considered it her secret, but she was very, very modest about it. I mentioned pride and fortune there, Zoe, but there's always this...

precarious situation that heroines find them on, kind of teetering on perhaps the edge of Rune in Mani. Tell me a little bit about how you understand that in Austen's time. I think she's really talking about why it's a necessity or an importance for them to marry. It's never just about romance, although that is the things that her happiest novels have. It's about...

what security they can have, what their life would be like. So with that security, Jill, Lizzie Bennet is in Pride and Prejudice. She's kind of the main protagonist. She refuses two proposals in Pride and Prejudice, for those that haven't read it or watched. What do you think readers would have made of that at the time? Well, at the time, they'd have read Pride and Prejudice completely differently from what we do. We think Mrs Bennet is a ridiculous woman and Mr Bennet is a hero.

Actually, Mrs. Bennet is the heroine. She sees the problem at the beginning of the novel. At that time? Yes, at that time. She sees the problem and by the end of the novel she's solved it. So that's one misunderstanding. Another is Mr. Collins is an absolute... Absolutely ghastly, sort of irredeemably ghastly clergyman who comes to stay. And he is the lucky distant relative who will inherit the Bennetts family home when Mr Bennetts pops his clogs.

And he says very sensibly, almost kindly, actually, that he will marry the second daughter because then it'll keep the house in the family. The women will all have a roof over their head. They don't have to go. care and scare them into a marriage that they can't trust. And Lizzie Bennet says, you know, get lost, which her father totally endorses and Mrs Bennet goes mad. It wasn't an ideal proposal. It wasn't an ideal proposal by Austen's romantic maxims, but...

It was a really sensible one. By accepting it, she would have saved the lives of her four sisters and her mother because they would have had somewhere to live. And she really should have at least thought twice about it, I think. a lot of contemporary women would have thought, oh, that wretched girl. So interesting. So, Zoe, when, you know, we mentioned consent earlier, what is Jane Austen, do you think, telling us about consent when Lizzie refuses?

the proposals? Well, I think what you really get is this lovely dichotomy between Collins' proposal and Darcy's. So Darcy, for those that haven't been following Pride and Prejudice, is... who eventually Lizzie is really romantically interested in. But he also offered a proposal when she thought he was rude.

what would I say, upstart, arrogant, exactly. So he's a much better economic proposition. He's outside the realm of what she could ever have expected. When Mr Collins proposes to her, she says no and he... won't hear it he kind of insists that she doesn't know what she's talking about and that actually she must mean to accept him he can't fathom why she'd be saying no to him because like as Jill said it makes perfect sense Mr Darcy

has even less reason to think she would say no to him but he understands immediately when she does and I think what you see in that moment is this man respecting her as an equal. He takes her word seriously. He thinks about what she says to him afterwards. He changes his behaviour because he's kind of taken some of her critiques on board, even if she didn't really think...

That was what he was going to do. It's such a reflection, though, on conversations we have about consent right now, about, you know, how people understand it or sometimes... that it is not accepted or that the woman must not know her own mind. Absolutely. And I think with Lizzie and Mr Collins, she ends up having to leave the room and ask her dad to back her up to kind of prove that she's saying no.

And I think Mr. Collins isn't a vicious man. He's a slimy clergyman, but he's not a terrible person. But you could really see what their married life would be like with him just consistently telling her, no, no. I am correct. You don't understand what you mean. It's going to be like this. We're going to talk a little bit more about Mr and Mrs Collins in just a moment. Jill, have Jane's novels...

being consistently popular. How would you describe her legacy? Oh, no. I mean, she wasn't huge in her day. At all. There are other authors who were working when she was who might think that there might be a national day of celebration 250 days, years after that. But none of them are, you know, and she would be the last.

Sense and Sensibility was very nicely reviewed and popular. Pride and Prejudice, very popular. Mansfield Park not even reviewed in her lifetime. There wasn't a review in print, although it did sell. Emma, masterpiece, total masterpiece. comes out to very sniffy reviews, and then she starts to get ill, and she starts also at the same time to witness her own professional demise. It is all going off the boil.

before she dies and then goes into a bit of an abyss till sort of late Victorian times, really. When it really took off was in the First World War, when the men in the trenches... This is another thing I'd like to say, actually, is that when her contemporary readers were entirely gender neutral, you know, it was women and men. Not all the reviewers were men and through the 19th century.

men as much were admiring of her. In the First World War, men in the trenches begging her to sending home for her novels because I think they created an England which...

would have been sort of a solace to them when they were there in the mud. And the same thing happened in the Second World War. And then shortly after, around that time, the first adaptations came on film. So she really was... much more of a 20th century phenomenon, but has become very much only a woman's author, for which we either blame the novels of Jane Austen or men.

The nostalgia is so interesting to World War One because I think we see some of that in political discourse at the moment as well, hearkening back to a previous time. And we talk about adaptations. I do want to let people know to stay tuned after a woman's hour to hear a screenshot today. It is about adaptations like the 1995 Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth's Mr Darcy, the incredibly moving Angleese Sense and Sensibility, Clueless, which is based on Emma, as Jill was alluding.

to some people calling it the best rom-com ever. So she has this enduring appeal. I want to read a couple of messages that have been coming in. to thank my English teacher Jane Grey in 1970 for awakening my love of Jane Austen through Emma for A Levels. This year I've reread all six books and yesterday spent the morning doing embroidery at Austen's home. Chowton!

Chawton. Chawton, I knew I was going to mispronounce that. Chawton College. So thank you very much for that. While we're on teachers, somebody else messaged us. I just heard Jill mention Mrs. Evan Doffage. Evan Doffage. Took me right back to Maidenhead High School, 1975, where she was my teacher. A really inspiring one and great fun too. I hope she's listening. Yes, indeed. Indeed. At the BBC, we go further.

so you see clearer. With a subscription to bbc.com, you get unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24-7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com. Find out more at bbc.com slash unlimited.

I'm Martha Stewart, and I believe the best gifts are not only beautiful, but useful every single day. And Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. and their Lenox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. Spice Village transforms everyday spices into inspired memories filled with warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection at Lennox.com slash Spice Village.

want to talk a little bit more about the expansion of... Jane Austen. Jill, as we've heard, has found inspiration in the extended family. We're joined now by Rachel Paris, whose new novel, Introducing Mrs. Collins, extends the story of Charlotte Lucas. Now, she is... the character in Pride and Prejudice who does what Lizzie Bennet

that central character we were talking about, simply could not do. So Charlotte accepts the proposal of Mr Collins, as well as being an author, a writer, a comedian, an actor, a presenter, a founding member of Ostentatious, that hugely successful... successful live improv show. It improvises a new Jane Austen novel in every performance. Great to have you with us, Rachel. Good morning. Thank you for having me. So why did you zone in on Charlotte Lucas?

I find her very interesting. I think she really chooses to write herself out of the story and then, understandably, she goes off to Kent, so we don't see very much more. of her and we have the kent visit but the focus is very much on lizzie and then she's mentioned at the very end of the novel but i just wanted to see what happens to her because i like her i really like her so we Briefly talked about Mr. Collins. Slimy was one word that came up.

I remember the word obsequious because I remember I learned it, what we have as interest in Ireland, like a GCSE, while studying Pride and Prejudice. Pompous was another one that would come up.

How do you find him as a character to delve into? Look, in Pride and Prejudice, there's no getting around it. He's presented to us as a very unattractive character and a very unattractive prospect of marriage. As I've written in my novel, Jill has called him irredeemable, but I don't think I found him irredeemable. I think it was mentioned earlier in the programme that he does choose to go and marry, he tries to anyway, marry one of the daughters.

presumably at least partially as an act of kindness, as an act of charity. And I did also think in the reading of Pride and Prejudice that we really only see him almost exclusively in situations where he would be deeply uncomfortable. A ball where he's... sort of can't dance, with a family who he knows resents him, who he's just meeting, most of them for the first time. He's out of his comfort zone. And I thought, what happens if we see him?

at home? What happens if we see him with the people he's comfortable with? So that changed a little bit of how I felt about him. Why did Charlotte marry him? Because she wanted a home of her own. I mean, Lucy Worsley talks a lot in her book about

How much Jane Austen is about homes, about finding a home that suits you as a woman and how difficult that path could be. And it didn't always involve romance. And of course, Jane Austen doesn't just delve into marriage. She also delves into what does it look like for... for spinsters? What does finding a home look like for dowagers, for widows? And in Pride and Prejudice, we're presented with all those issues. What are the Bennetts going to do when Mr. Bennet dies?

And so Charlotte has got all this going on in her mind. What is going to happen? Yes, she can stay living at her parents' house indefinitely. I think she's presuming she is not going to get proposed to. So it seems to me like a last minute chance and she grabs it. She grabs it, but she does have her head turned.

She does. By Colonel Richard Fitzwilliam. Now, he is a character in Pride and Prejudice. Keep up, people. Why did you decide... to put those characters together. And perhaps also have some scenes that Jane Austen would not have included in her novels. Some spice. The romance with Fitzwilliam, I've just had a bit of a fixation, an idea always for a few years in my recent rereadings of Pride and Prejudice that Charlotte suits Colonel Fitzwilliam infinitely more than he suits.

It's Elizabeth Bennet, who he has an interest in, in Pride and Prejudice. You know, they both... have um a certain genial manner they're both quite measured i think um and also they both cannot marry who who they want to marry you know they're both having to make very practical choices in marriage um And yeah, so I thought that would be an interesting avenue to explore. In terms of writing about things Jane Austen wouldn't have written about, for me...

I tried to keep it in the Austen world in that language. But for me, I didn't know how to tell the story of a nuanced marriage between Mr. Collins and Charlotte without including something about like the wedding night. trying to have children you know the practicalities of what a marriage would look like which were huge issues in a marriage so i did choose to include them

You've also been explicit about sexual violence in a way that Jane Austen would not have been. We were speaking earlier about consent. Yes. Yeah, well, so there is, she does encounter Wickham. Twy, twy, two or three times in the novel. You might want to say who Wickham is. Wickham is the dastardly member of the militia from Pride and Prejudice who really charms Lizzie.

Bennet and lies, spins a web of lies which sets her against Mr Darcy. He's almost the cause of the prejudice against Mr Darcy. And I bring him into my novel and I think what Austen gave us... uh which was that he was a predator of very young women you know yes of course courting happened a bit earlier than it does now but not

not 15 not 60 like it was still gross it was still gross even then and so I just took I I felt like I took what Austin gave us and I put it in a different context which was in in another scene how would he behave in terms of consent and I don't think it would be very good.

So interesting. You, I mentioned, you're part of this huge Austin community through Ostentatious. Jill was talking about, you know, the gender breakdown that there has been over the years about the love of Jane Austen. And her novels. What about for Ostentatious? Do you know what? We thought it would be many more women. And we've gone through periods where that's been the case. But it's fairly even now.

i think words got out a bit that i suppose what we're doing obviously is a more ramshackle version obviously of austin's more knockabout but in essence this is the The world of Austin, that's what we're aiming for. And we've got a lot of men of all different ages coming. I'm sure some of them are dragged, sure, but certainly not. Lots of messages coming in, of course. Here's one.

There's a couple of dissenters. Two women's errors. Will mine be the only dissenting voice? Probably, but at risk of being cancelled for blasphemy, I have to say thanks, but no thanks. I've had enough of Jane Austen at school. I know a lot of people love and respect her, but I just don't get it. My loss, obviously. So says Julia. Rachel, what do you love about Austen? I love the networks that she builds between women, between family members. I love...

the different examples of womanhood that she gives us. As I say, it's not just about the love story. It really focuses in on the feelings and the situations of women and what they had to do. And I think that's why I love it. And it still feels absolutely relevant today. And I have heard it said that you consort your friends into Austen characters. Is that true?

Yeah, it's like a bad habit now. So for those that haven't read Austen, maybe they've seen Sex and the City and people might say somebody is a Carrie or a Samantha or a Charlotte or a Miranda. I remember them all off the top of my head. So give me an example, for example. And who are you? Well...

It's interesting. I've always been more drawn to her quieter, more sensible characters rather than her sparkly ones like her Emma's and her Lizzie's. In Ostentatious, for example, with the brilliant Cariad Lloyd, me and Cariad have always said that we're Lizzie and Jane, I'm Jane. And she's Lizzie. She's much more sparkly and fiery and just a sort of a ball of wit. And I feel like I'm slightly steadier and I'm not taking the beauty card. That's not a factor.

But also, yeah, it's hard not to do it with ostentatious when you're literally dressed up. You're going like, well... Can you see that I am dressed up today? I've got full Regency regalia. I'm kind of in a deep purple velvet with a lot of gold. I do have a feather that is causing me some headroom issues, but my headphones are fine.

Over it. I need to read this message. Hello from a modern day Lizzie Bennet. In name only. And yes, I do have an extra T in my surname. I had pride and prejudice quoted at me from an early age. So initially resented Jane Austen. In my most Elizabeth... Bennet Way I laughed politely outwardly and judged

less politely, inwardly, when young gentlemen tried to introduce themselves as Mr. Darcy. Living as Lizzie Bennet has been good fun. The big question I have for Woman's Hour is this. On marrying, should I change my surname? Rachel? I think it depends what surname it is. I'm a big believer in just if you've got the option and if you prefer the name, go for it. Jill, yeah, if it's Knightley or something. Oh, you could have stayed Lizzie Bennet. You have to stay Lizzie Bennet.

So there we have. I'm sorry I didn't get a complete, what would I say, consensus on whether to change it up. But thank you so much on giving me. some of the details of how Jane Austen is touching your life. Mr. Collins says Tamara is my favourite character precisely because of how awful he is. I think he has the funniest lines of the male characters and I often rate

adaptations based on who is playing Mr. Collins because they steal the show. That and Lady Catherine's fireplaces, of course. Wonderful. Well, thank you very much, Rachel. I should let people know the book. is Mrs. Collins, which tells that story indeed of Charlotte Lucas. So I hope you're keeping up with the various characters that we are indeed talking about.

Last week, the BBC announced it would broadcast another Austen spin-off. It's called The Other Bennet Sister, adapted from a novel by Janice Hadlow. Now, this one follows Mary Bennet, who has been described as anxious. Awkward. That's Bennett's sister. So is this an Austen multiverse, like a collection of universes where various characters connected to her expand ever outwards? Jill, how do you feel about the term an Austen multiverse?

It's fantastic. I'd rather have that than a Marvel multiverse. The thing is, you know, she's left so much unsaid. All of her characters are so real and believable that they can all take a novel or a TV series of their own. So, yeah, let's do it. Is that... How you understand, Rachel, why there are so many spin-offs or adaptations? How do you understand her popularity? I think it is that. I think she wrote such a massive cast of characters and even a secondary minor character.

is very intriguing. So she offered us so much to play with that, you know, you want to play with it. You, Zoe, are a millennial. And for women of your generation, tell us a little. I think everyone's done a group project with a Mr. Collins. Really? Yeah, I think, you know, they're characters you recognise, you've seen in your day-to-day life. And a lot of us end up, you know, living with our parents at the moment or kind of struggling, having to stay in relationships just to get how...

that kind of thing. So a lot of Austen's issues are still very relevant. Yeah, the home aspect that Rachel was talking about, like a home. We hear of a room of one's own for a woman to be a writer, but a home of one's own to actually live with some semblance of independence. Yes, exactly. And, you know, you kind of, who is, you're recognising these characters and you kind of see them around you and a lot of the issues are very similar. You know, we all...

We all have families and everyone's family sees them in a different way. Not everyone in her novels is well understood by their family. And I think that's something people often relate to as well. You know, whether they are... feel like the odd one out or the constantly sensible one or the one who is being constantly upbraided by their...

older relations. And the siblings of course playing such an important role as well. Many young people will be living with their siblings for much longer than they would have expected probably when they were growing up. Rachel

do you think Austen has shaped the modern idea of romantic relationships? I think that she, it was encouraging women to be picky.

to a certain extent i think that we see marriages of convenience like with charlotte lucas um but i think that she wanted love of her characters clearly and she didn't want people to settle like take persuasion like anne elliott is being chased by Mr Elliot and it sort of makes sense to a certain extent until she finds out that he's a cad like she was a practical woman I think and yet I think she encouraged women to

have quite a high standard for themselves. And in that way, I think, yeah, I think she's impacted what women are wanting now. And we talked about women reading these novels, Jill, but what do you think it would take for men to read them in equal measure? I simply don't know because they are everything that you want in a novel, especially Emma, I think, which is just a perfect example of a novel. It has a detective story in there.

They are unbelievably funny, unlike, and still funny, you know, all of the psychological realism of her characters. is really what explains their endurance, I think, because none of it has become irrelevant to us. Another listener in defence of Mr Collins. Jane Austen did mention that his father was illiterate. Yes. He was creating a psychological depth to him which is rarely mentioned. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now.

Jane Austen's novels have been translated into almost every major language. There are societies of Austen lovers and scholars in every corner of the globe, from Australia to Argentina, from Iran to Italy. And joining us now to tell us why Austen still captivates... its readers in their parts of the world.

Arlaleen Sukhera, founder of the Jane Austen Society of Pakistan, and also the founding member of the Austen Society of Pakistan is Laleen, and the Austen Society of Japan, but now at the University of Southampton, is Dr. Hatsumi. Tsuyo Shimakaze. Welcome to Woman's Hour, both of you. I want to start with you, Laleen. What was your introduction to Jane Austen? What gave you the bug? Hi, happy to be here. Well, I grew up with a lot of books.

But it was actually my aunt Helen in Hertfordshire who gave me on my 12th birthday an entire collection and I was besotted immediately. My understanding is the society that you founded started out... with high T cosplay. I mean, this is continents away and centuries away from Regency England. What was that appeal to a group of young professional women in Pakistan? Well, first of all, it was a very eclectic group.

We had teachers, journalists, people from different nationalities. And I would say like international Pakistanis, like I'm a Pakistani origin expat and I currently live in Dubai. It was fun. It was playful. It was relatable. And I just love meeting people in a similar wavelength who can sort of enjoy a little whimsical tea and chatter. And what was relatable about it? What was not relatable about it, honestly? Not much has changed in two and a half centuries.

Whether you're a young lady or you're a mother, I would say a lot of the characterizations of the gender roles, the etiquette, the marriage market still exists. And a lot of other things as well. Whether it's the way you sort of deal with suitors, making a good match, two people don't get married, their families actually marry each other. And some of it is actually quite stifling and frustrating as well. So it's not everything that's fun.

fun and games. There's also, you know, and of course, I can't speak for everybody because it's a massive country. But as a Pakistani origin person, and other expats, I would say for my social class, at least, there's still a lot of similarities and we live a sort of double life where we juxtapose these ancestral traditions and generational etiquette with contemporary lives. It's so interesting. Let me turn to you, Hatsuyo. Hello. How were you introduced to Jane Austen?

I think I read Pride and Prejudice in a course at the university. So that was my first time. So that was in university. And is Austin very popular across Japan? She is. Yes, I think she has been really popular since, I would say, 1960s, but the first translation came in 1926. So it's already a century. And is it particular books that have kind of caught the imagination you mentioned Pride and Prejudice?

Yes, I think so. I mean, initially when Austen was translated and introduced to the Japanese readers, it was about the time, I mean, Edwardian time when... or like Japanese women resonate with Elizabeth Bennet being independent, you know, I am a gentry. woman. And then Kathleen de Bourgh, she's also a gentleman, so we are equal. So that way of speaking to the authority was unimaginable in that time. Unimaginable. So it's like that hierarchy that's within.

society, of the class, of where you are and who you're able to speak to and what way you're able to speak, which you as an Austen scholar, I know you've studied narrative voice in the novels. reading about you. I hadn't thought about it previously, but Austen Style has a narrative technique called free...

indirect discourse. So that's when we hear the third person narrator with the characters first person. So the thoughts and the voice and perspective and I suppose at times the conflict between the two.

Yes. What is Austin is really genius is she is using this for both speech and thought. So this thought part is very... popular um well known so um characters it's almost like you are watching a film and then the characters in a voice which is silent voice but we can hear it so there is a conflicting as you say uh what

she's actually saying but what she's thinking inward it can be you know criticizing a male protagonist or you know patriarch system itself and so How does that, if it does, relate to Japanese society, perhaps even today? Yes, so you will be surprised because language doesn't exist on its own. Always, you know, there's a historical context and we use as Japanese women.

I need to use respect form, humble form and polite form and female vocabulary rather than male vocabulary by choosing which is the best to suit in this social context.

we situate ourselves in a hierarchy. And that is what Austin is doing with this free and direct speech for speech presentation. For example, when Fanny Price... adopted daughter speaking with the baronet she can't speak out what she said and the only thing is used almost muting what Fanny is saying, making it quite subtle using this friend-like discourse.

we can clearly see what Anselt Thomas is saying. So this is a power balance relationship between them. And I suppose that gives us that deeper level of really understanding those characters and I guess human nature. can be human nature no matter what century it's in and perhaps why making it so relatable. Coming back to you, Laleen, what was it that drew you in? Was it a particular book or character?

Well, I started off very young, reading Austen very young. So Catherine Moreland immediately resonated. And I found Anne Elliot, for example, very old and boring. appreciate so much more now as a divorced person myself. And I think Emma Woodhouse has also been very relatable to me over the years. I lived with my widow dad. I, you know, I matchmake a little bit.

We just need to stop there for a second. You also work as a matchmaker. For those that haven't read Emma, they might have watched Clueless. You get an idea of Emma who's kind of interfering in other people's businesses and wanting to make a match while being. kind of clueless about herself or not self-aware. So with Jane Austen's novels, I mean, do you take inspiration from that with your job as a matchmaker? Much like Austin herself, I like happy endings, even though I'm single. I just enjoy...

connecting people, but it's not my full time job. I just do it on the side as a passion project. I'm a writer, editor and communications consultant. But I do want to add one little thing. I've never seen Jane Austen as an other. I've always found her relatable, her world, the Regency world is very relatable. And it's also due to perhaps the fact that there's a historical link. I mean... I believe it was her brother Henry who published her novels and then his wife Eliza. Jill is saying yes.

Warren Hastings' love child and a lot of that money, which actually came from the subcontinent, was used to publish her novels. So I think that's a very fun link. And a lot of the fashions in the Regency period as well came from this part of the world. So I love that. I love that it's hard. It's interwoven.

into the society. Just some messages coming in. Here's one from Ken. I'm a fully grown man of 45. I've never read any of Jane Austen's novels, but after listening to Woman's Hour today, I'm going to read all of them in 2026. We have one convert that we have there. It has begun. I want to come back to you, Hatsu. Oh, I see that Laleen has a fan that she is also using. Very ostentatious, as Rachel might say. Coming back to you, because we're talking about society and we know about the decline.

marriage and birth rates in Japan. Jill was bringing us up to date at that time when Jane Austen was growing up. It was less than half the women were married. What about Japanese readers today and Austen, and I suppose in a way reflecting some of that? Well, and... I am unfortunately contributing to this decline of marriage, probably. However, I don't think the marriage may be declined, but Japan itself hasn't given up on it.

The government even offers incentives to sustain the pension system. We need more labor in the future. And the parents still care about their children, if they can marry. Although, of course, arranged marriage is gone. quite a long time in Japan. But I think the reason is because Japanese people, women, now have financial securities, do not have to rely on male protection in finance.

But I think it's such an interesting point, Jill. I'd like to bring this back to you because, you know, Hatsuya saying that, you know, the government and we've seen it in so many countries around the world trying to have initiatives for people to have children.

times get married, et cetera, that they think might lead to children, particularly in certain societies. Was there any thoughts about that at all in the Regency era? Oh, no. Well, there was no problem with having children because when people did get married, they had like 15. really wasn't an issue at all.

I mean, the issue was that there was a war on and there just weren't very many men. Exactly. Well, I want to thank both of my guests, Hasuyo Shimekazi and Laleen Shakira. Really great to hear from both of you, the Japanese and Pakistani perspective.

As some have said, not every listener will be well-versed in the novels of Jane Austen. But if this programme has whetted your appetite like Ken and you're not sure where to start, Rachel has some suggestions for you. Rachel, what is the best Austen novel for a crime fiction fan? So I think it might be Emma. The obvious candidate feels like it's Northanger Abbey because it's a bit mysterious and what's going on. But Emma, as Jill said earlier, has got a bit of a puzzle to solve in it.

So for crime fiction readers, I would say that. The best Austen novel for a Sally Rooney fan. It's got to be Persuasion. Because it's the yearning. It's the many years of yearning and regrets and longing. Yeah, that feels like the best fit. So yearning, yeah, there is very much that, isn't there, throughout a lot of her books.

Which of Austen's novels would you suggest if you love Marion Keys? Now this, I feel like there's more than one. I think Pride and Prejudice fits quite well in that it feels like there's a big... family vibe you're finding out all the different stories across the family but um and i think that's a slightly funnier but i'm going to go with sense and sensibility because you get the different personalities of the sisters

the conflict between the sisters. So, yeah, I'm going to say Sense and Sensibility for that. OK, let's say a couple more. Young Adult? Northanger Abbey. There we go. It sort of is YA anyway. Moving to the other, Romanticy or Extra Spice, maybe just the steamiest book. I've just got to say persuasion again because I just think it is. It's the most romantic. You pierce my soul. And the best cosy holiday read as we get ready for the next couple of weeks.

I'm going to say Pride and Prejudice. I think it's the most joyful, the most accessible. I think it's the first Austen you should read. So I'm going to go with that. Here's some messages that have come in. At our wedding, the best man announced in his speech that there was a very important woman in my new husband's life.

a longstanding love who would remain throughout our marriage and one that I would just have to accept. The room gasped until he revealed that, of course, the other woman was Jane Austen. That was 30 years ago. We now have three sons who haven't quite inherited the passion for Austen, though not for lack of trying. That was Claire. Thank you, Claire, so much. I also want to thank Rachel and Jill and Zoe for helping us celebrate the two.

250th anniversary of the birth of Jane Austen. Do join me again tomorrow. 50 years this month since the Sex Discrimination Act was passed. We'll talk about that. And also a domestic abuse specialist who's working in a police control room. It's all there. Thank you for all your stories and how Jane Austen meant so much to you and its relevance today. Stay with Radio 4 for more. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

And from BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast, this is The Arrest. A race against time to apprehend a seemingly untouchable man. He had filed a flight plan at 6.30 in the morning. a former dictator accused of crimes against humanity. And I found Laura there. And she says, they killed Dad. We cannot go in history having been those who abandoned the Spanish victims. And there is General Pinochet sitting in his bed in his straight pyjamas. I thought, oh my God, it really is him. The arrest.

Listen first on BBC Sounds. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com. Giving you unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24-7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. Subscribe to trusted, independent journalism and storytelling from the BBC. Find out more at BBC.

I'm Martha Stewart, and I believe the best gifts are not only beautiful, but useful every single day. And Lennox has brought timeless beauty and lasting quality to our tables for generations. and their Lenox Spice Village is the perfect holiday gift for someone you love or for yourself. Spice Village transforms everyday spices into inspired memories filled with warmth and joy all year long. Give a gift that lasts beyond the holidays. Discover the collection at Lennox.com slash Spice Village.