Going It Alone, Venezuela, Military children

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giving you unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24-7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. Subscribe to trusted, independent journalism and storytelling from the BBC. Find out more at bbc.org. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast.

Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, since the capture of the Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro and his wife Celia Flores over the weekend, powerful women have been an integral part of this unfolding story. Raid, as Celia was known, to Delsi Rodriguez, the soon-to-be-sworn-in new president of Venezuela. Then there's also the opposition leader and Nobel Prize winner, Maria Corina Machado, plus American Prosecutor-in-Chief, that's US Attorney

Attorney General Pam Bondy. We're going to explore their significance this hour. Also today, a new series, Going It Alone. We're speaking to solo mums, those women who have made the decision to have a child without a partner. in the number of women taking this route to have children. And I wonder if it strikes a chord with you. Maybe it's something you're doing or considering or perhaps you're on your own and you want children but have real concerns about doing it.

This way. I'd like to hear from all of you. You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03700 100 444. We are also going to look at the challenges faced by children in military families this hour with a woman who has just been appointed an MBE for her work.

to support them. But first let us turn to that developing news out of Venezuela and the United States following that eventful weekend. Later today. Delcy Rodriguez is due to be sworn in, as I mentioned, as Venezuela's president after the capture of Nicolas Maduro and his wife. Nicolas Maduro has been in charge of the country since 2013.

But Delsi Rodriguez, as I mentioned, not the only woman in the spotlight. Let us turn to Celia Flores, the wife of Nicolas Maduro and a political force in her own right. She will be appearing in a New York court in the coming hours with her husband. Also, I'm Maria Corina Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner. Joining me in studio to chat about these women is BBC South America correspondent Ione Wells. Good to have you with us.

Good to be here. Thank you for having me. We also have Professor Rebecca Jarman from Leeds University, who's an expert in Venezuelan politics and history. Good morning. Good morning. Let us begin. Bringing us up to date, Ione, for those who haven't been attention to the blow by blow because it was such a fast moving story over the weekend. How did we get here?

Well, in the early hours of Saturday, the US went into Venezuela, captured both President Nicolás Maduro, but also his wife, Celia Flores, removed them from the country and took them to the US. US where they are now in custody due to appear in court today. This was accompanied by a series of military strikes in and around the capital Caracas as well, particularly targeting military infrastructure. And this comes after months of

months and months where the US has been ramping up its military deployment in the region. There have been dozens of strikes on alleged drug trafficking vessels. There have been seizures of oil tankers. And then this culminated in this incredibly dramatic

on Saturday. Maduro has been in power for many years, as you say, in the country. The US... is saying that the reason for him being taken to the US is to face charges, including of drug trafficking, of narco-terrorism, of weapons, possession, all of which he denies. But this is an extraordinary moment. It can't be understated how much of a dramatic fall from power this was for him.

And as we turn to his wife, Celia Flores, I mentioned, you know, first comrade, first warrior are some terms that I've seen attributed to her by her husband, among others. But what charges is she set to face? Are they the same as her husband? That's right. She's set to face the same charges, conspiracy to narco-terrorism, to importing cocaine.

possession of weapons as well. She is one of Nicolás Maduro's closest confidants, closest aides, as well as, of course, being his wife. He always described her not just as the first lady, but as you say, as the first warrior. herself has been a real political force in Venezuela for a long time. She was a lawyer who defended plotters of the failed coup attempt in 1992 in Venezuela, one of whom was Hugo Chavez, the former president.

the predecessor to Nicolás Maduro. She once led the National Assembly, but she has herself faced repeated allegations of corruption, of nepotism. Some of her own family members have been found guilty of cocaine smuggling. the spotlight too. And the US has certainly had its eyes on her as well as Nicolás Maduro for a long time. And you don't have to look too far until you see a picture of her with Hugo Chávez, for example, the predecessor.

That's right. And as I say, part of that is because of her previous history, really. She was a lawyer. She was very much embedded in that left wing. an uprising movement in Venezuela, as I say, taking on the cause of some of those who were trying to attempt a coup back in the early 90s, including Hugo Chavez, who became ultimately a real mentor as well. Nicolas Maduro. You know, it's interesting because they're both in their 60s at this point, which

is decades that they've been involved within Venezuelan politics, just to give that a little bit of context as well. Right, let me turn to another woman, Ione. This is Delcy Rodriguez. This will be a new name for many people. She is due to be sworn in later today. Venezuela's president. How would you describe her?

She is a very powerful woman in Venezuela and very much, I think it is worth stressing, a close ally of Maduro. She was very much at the heart of his regime. Not only was she his vice president, but she was his oil. minister. As of 2024, the oil industry in Venezuela was in her portfolio. So she had huge responsibility over the country's economy and its oil industry. And we know that part of the US's action in Venezuela has been about wanting Venezuelan oil.

She is embedded in the power structures of the country. Her brother Jorge runs the National Assembly, which is where she will appear later today to be sworn in essentially by the country's Congress. legislature which is opening for the new year as it always does on this day but today there is only one topic on the agenda which is her essentially. I want to bring Rebecca in here. How do you see this rise Rebecca?

this unexpected, perhaps, zenith, really, of Venezuelan politics. Definitely not expected to happen that quickly, I would imagine, not even by Delcy Rodriguez. Well... I have to disagree with you, actually. I'm not sure it is necessarily unexpected. She's very ambitious. She's held many different ministerial roles, as I only set out. She comes, as do all the women, come from a long family background. politics and politics in Venezuela, as it is in many countries, is largely a family affair.

Delcy's father was a Marxist and he was involved in kidnapping and was later tortured and killed in detention. So some see this as kind of channeling anger and frustration into a... political career which she has you know in which she's shown a lot of ambition a lot of shrewd manoeuvring and a lot of canny negotiating with really difficult actors. But I suppose what I meant by this, that she wouldn't have expected to come to the height of this power.

in such a short time, let's say if we talked about this six months ago, or maybe the writing was on the wall, you tell me. But how is she viewing her... role as this new leader? Because I think we've seen a change definitely in what she's been saying publicly, even between Saturday and today. Yes. It's difficult, you know, who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but I must say that in order for...

the targeted seizure of Maduro to be successful, there was internal cooperation. There absolutely must have been some internal cooperation. So we do not know who has been previously cooperating with the US, but that's something to bear in mind. mind. And Delcy has previously suggested that she would be open to working with US politicians. And so, again, that's something to bear in mind. Although, of course, the timing will have shocked many. She began her first...

public statement by denouncing US actions and by calling for a defense of Venezuelan sovereignty. She wanted to know where Maduro was. She wanted proof that he was alive. It was this kind of militant rhetoric that we know her for. And since then, and since Trump's press conference on the Saturday when he said that he would be working with Delsi Rodriguez, or hoping to at least, her rhetoric has changed. So in her later statement, it was still denouncing.

US actions, it was still calling for sovereignty but she also said, which is very important, we are open to working with US forces, which is something new.

Ione, she has been warned. A lot of people will have heard this headline this morning by US President Donald Trump that Delce Rodriguez will pay a very big price, probably bigger than Maduro if she doesn't. do what's right, his words. How are you interpreting that? I think what this means is that when Donald Trump said that the US will now run Venezuela, he...

at least for now, doesn't mean that in a practical sense. There are not boots on the ground in Venezuela. But in a psychological sense, the US does have a form of control and leverage right now. And that is because Delcy Rodriguez, as well as other members of Maduro, in a circle who are still in the country in power.

will have seen these images of Maduro being sent to the US, blindfolded with his hands tied in his tracksuit, now appearing in court. They know, and Trump has reiterated that in that statement that he made directly threatening Delsi Rodríguez. that if they don't comply with what the US seems to want them to do...

they could well face the same fate. And I think that is the calculation and that is the reason that we are hearing this contradiction between Delcy Rodriguez on the one hand saying that Venezuela will defend itself, but on the other hand saying that it's... ready to cooperate. And I think that is because there will be privately a nervousness among those figures. And I mean, what do you think, Rebecca? How do you think she'll handle this tightrope, I suppose, that she's walking?

Yes, it very much is a tightrope because beyond the threat of further violence, there's also the fact that Maduro's inner circle, including Delsi, are facing very severe sanctions. And so they're really unable to leave Venezuela. Or if they do, they're going to be forced to negotiate some sort of residency in an allied country, which they may not necessarily want. So there are personal reasons here for remaining in power, not just political reasons. And sometimes personal reasons are...

much more compelling and I suspect that she will do what she can to remain in power as long as she has cooperation from the inner circle and crucially from the military because if the military are not on side then she's not going to be able to stay in government.

Constitutionally, there should be an election within 30 days. But whether or not that is going to happen, whether or not that's in the interests of Del Cido Rodríguez and Trump is yet to be seen. You know, as you say that, Rebecca, about the military being on side.

is also making me think of another woman who is... a player of sorts in this story, and that is Maria Corina Machado. She is the opposition leader. People will have seen that she was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I think Donald Trump called her a very nice woman, but didn't see... I think at this point, any position for her leading. Iona, do we know where she is?

We don't know her exact whereabouts. She had certainly said that she intended to return to Venezuela after going to Oslo to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. I would almost go further and say that Donald Trump directly snubbed her, I think, when he gave that press conference. He said she didn't have the support, essentially, to take power in the country. And that comes after months and months and months where she has been deeply...

praiseworthy of Donald Trump and of the US and called on them for support. And I think that comment from Donald Trump came as a huge surprise to many within the opposition who hoped that US intervention would potentially pave a... a more clear path, if not an easy one, for the opposition. But she hasn't been seen speaking. No, she has given...

various statements since this happened. She called it a day of freedom. She said that the opposition's candidate in the last election, Edmundo Gonzalez, should now assume the presidency, but she hasn't really appeared publicly or much since then. As I say, I think the opposition has somewhat got a little bit quiet in the last couple of days, with the exception of...

calling on its supporters to conduct peaceful protests, for example. Rebecca, let me turn back to you. We've mentioned a number of powerful women in politics now in Venezuela. Is that unusual for the region?

There are other examples. This is a particularly interesting example because we have three women across the political spectrum and in some ways they actually represent... the three kind of powerful strands of venezuelan politics so you've got cilia flores who has traditional links with with the military um and it's of course first lady we have delcio rodriguez who is the kind of

of the hard left historically. And then we've got Maria Corina Machado, who is the right wing business interests, kind of historical political elite of Caracas. So we have these three figures who... who are almost kind of representing the three different stories of Venezuelan politics as they've unfolded in living memory, I guess. Maria Corina Mochala is interesting because in some ways she has held the more kind of traditional role.

that a First Lady would hold in terms of her dress, she dresses very conservatively, in terms of evoking religion, in terms of exhibiting her Catholic beliefs and in terms of helping the poor and so on. So she's a very conservative figure and almost more what we would expect of a first lady figure in Latin America. Interesting.

Cross back over to the United States with you, Ione. One more woman in this story that I want to mention, and that is the US Attorney General, Pam Bondi, seeing that she has promised that Maduro and Flores will soon, and I quote, face the full... Wrath of American Justice on American Soil in American Courts. How are you watching that part of the story?

Well, this is a fascinating part of the story. She's the top legal authority in Trump's administration. And yes, she's responsible for outlining the charges against Maduro and Celia Flores. But also she is in charge ultimately of...

defending the Trump administration against any possible legal challenges. And I think this is a really interesting chapter in this story because already the Trump administration, both internationally but also domestically, from both Democrat but also Republican lawmakers...

facing scrutiny over the legality of what they did. They justify this as a law enforcement procedure, as a way of enacting an arrest warrant that was in place for Nicolás Maduro. However, many lawyers believe that calling this law enforcement... strikes, military action within a sovereign state, the seizure of a country's leader is not in itself law enforcement. And that is a stretch. And therefore, I think we can expect legal challenges to come.

Really interesting. Thank you so much. The BBC South America correspondent, Ione Wells, as well as Professor Rebecca Jarman from Leeds University. That will give us real context as we go forward with the story, who some off those players are. Thanks so much.

If you'd like to get in touch, perhaps on our next item, because we were going to have the first part in our new series, Going It Alone. This week, we are talking to three women about their decision to have a child without a partner. So that's women who are having donor conceived children, which is different to single mums who.

might have split up with the child's father, for example. More women than ever in the UK are choosing to become solo mums by choice. Now, statistics show a dramatic rise in single women turning to IVF and donor conception to start a family on. Lucy, who you'll hear from today, is now 41. Her son is nearly three. She's expecting her second son.

In February, when Lucy started her solo mum journey, part of her plan was for her mum and dad to help. But when she was halfway through her first pregnancy, her parents became seriously ill. And last year, when her son was one and a half, Lucy's dad and then mum. sadly died within six weeks of each other. She wanted to talk with us about her decision to go it alone and how she navigated being a solo mum and also the loss of both.

her parents. Lucy lives in her childhood home that's in the North West. Our reporter Jo Morris joined her there. I'll give you the tour. So this is my son's room. So this is where he was born, this spot. This spot here? Yeah. Just by his bed? Next to the bed. Yeah. This is literally where he came into the world. Yeah.

So you're actually stood on the spot where you gave birth to him. My sister's cleaned the carpet since. So Lucy, this is the house you grew up in. Can you remember the day you decided to go solo as a parent? Yeah, it must have been during one of the times in COVID where we could see people inside houses because I was here with mum and dad.

I think I must have thought about it a little bit because of missing my sister's children and my friend's kids because of not being able to see them through lockdown that made me...

really start craving it more. Like I, you know, that real feel like I need to have, I want children around and imagining life in that way. And I think it just... probably led me to start imagining my life and what I wanted my future to look like and so I remember being with mum and dad and just saying to them as a bit of a joke I

Maybe I'll just have kids by myself anyway. And I expected them to laugh it off, but they were just like, yeah, you should, you should. I got really excited about it. And so then that made me go, oh, okay. I wasn't really expecting that. that reaction, maybe I actually should. Then I just kind of had that kind of conversation with some of my friends as well. And everyone had the same response, pretty much.

And especially here, living here, I kind of thought, I don't know anyone else who's gone down that route. Did you think about adopting? I think I would have thought about it, you know, as an option, definitely. I've also in the past thought about fostering. I still wouldn't rule out doing that. Part of me craved and wanted to experience the feeling of nurturing a baby.

as it's growing just like a longing isn't it you know like a you imagine your like your body going through that process and feeling those things and like feeling a baby kick and um Watching your body grow. Oh, there's a train! Yeah? Bye, train! Bye, train! Okay, you ready? Yeah. You are getting heavy. So how old is he now? He's two and a half. How old are you now? Two. Two? And now I'm 40 and so I'll be nearly 41 when I have this baby.

That was so cool, wasn't it? It's so funny because I've never seen pictures of the donor. Did you think about his donor when he was born? Yeah, I think about it. I mean, I look at him all the time, my little boy, and think... How much does he look like the donor? Because it's so impossible to know, isn't it, without knowing? Wait a minute! And every now and again he pulls a face that I think is so uniquely him.

And I don't recognise it in any of my family. And I think, I wonder if that's what the donor looks like. And in some ways, I'd love to know. And in other ways, it doesn't matter at all. You know, he just looks like him. But it will be interesting to see what the new baby looks like and if they look similar and if there's anything, you know, similar traits between them. Because you're using the same donor again.

How much is this the life that you expected for you, Lucy, growing up? Growing up, it's not the life I expected at all, at all, because I was engaged in my 20s. And I think in my head, I did imagine that I would have kids and wanted to get married and have that whole life. And then I think then when I became single, when I was probably just before I was 30, it was a...

There was a real period of grief of what if that doesn't happen for me? I came to realise later that is not what you have to do whatsoever and I feel completely confident with that.

now and that choice i think at the time it was hard because i had imagined that that was the route that i'd go down because you were engaged yeah then as i changed as i got older and spent more time as a single person um and establishing my my own life you know i probably actually came i i loved being single and i think that was part of the problem when i was dating well not problem but

I never actually felt like this person's going to bring something different and better to my life. I always felt like I'm actually going to have to probably sacrifice something about my life that I love to make space for a new relationship. He just loves being outside. And also when he was really little, my mum would take him outside. And when he was a little baby, like show him the flowers and the plants.

Yeah, it was lovely. How old was he when your mum died? He was... She died last September, so yeah, about one and a half. And such a shock when that happened. And it happened. We found out about her not being well when I was about halfway through my pregnancy.

So it kind of, you know, all my plans and expectations and thoughts about how it was going to be all of a sudden came crashing down because she was... the person really that was the other you know like the the person I was kind of planning with and um getting excited about things with so you've had huge life change in the past year you've not only had your first child on your own but you've lost both your parents yeah how have you navigated that time um

It's been probably a bit of a mix because it's been the hardest times and also the best times. And I think that although... Sometimes I would think, how am I going to do this? How am I actually going to have my son and look after mum and dad and grieve? But actually, there were times when I thought, I don't think I can do all of this at the same time. But then he just brought so much light to such a horrible situation. Mum and Dad were so excited about him being here.

During the time when they were so unwell, he just made everything better because it was a huge distraction for them. And I think that it was a case of like navigating it. It was a case of just having to because there was no choice. My two sisters being around, as well as their families and my friends and everything, made it all so much easier because it didn't feel like we were doing anything by ourselves, but there was just a lot of juggling to do.

Don't go too quick. I think his legs go faster than his body can keep up with him. Should we put it down here and make a little bed for the teddies? I mean, he's clearly got a lot of questions, hasn't he? I know. I know. God, if he carries on like this. God help me. Lucy, what have you told your son so far about how he was conceived?

I've tried to do it in a very age-appropriate way, and I also use quite simple but honest words as well. Mummy, mummy, mummy. That's right. This is a book we read about how you were made, isn't it? Well, this is about a mummy who hasn't got a baby yet. tummy it starts to grow in her tummy but first she needs the egg and the sperm doesn't she yeah yeah and she's got the egg but she has to get the sperm from a donor

Like when we made you? Yeah. And then I'll build on that story, I think, as he gets older and as he develops his understanding. You know, I'll talk a little bit more about the... who the donor was and why I chose them and all that kind of thing. But you use the word honest. It's important. Yes. Yeah, I think so. Because I want him to... develop confidence in talking about it. I don't want him to feel like his family is not as...

I don't know what the words are, acceptable as somebody else's family. Although it's not as much of a solid family as somebody else's family that's got two parents in it. I want him to, I want to always... role model the kind of confidence i want him to have around it it i didn't want there to be like a point in which we started talking about it so it's just always like an open conversation

My baby. That's right. And the baby in mummy's tummy now is this big. Yeah. Isn't it? And that's my mummy. Yeah. And you were obviously really close to your dad. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think it will be for your son not having a dad in the picture? I know it is something that I've thought about because my family situation is so different to the one that I knew myself because obviously... you know had both parents they stayed together and um and I think he won't know any different I guess he won't

He hasn't had a dad that then has left or, you know, he will always understand that our family looks a certain way. Well, I hope he always understands that or at least that's how I'll be explaining it to him. This is what our family looks like. And every family is different. And so he doesn't need to have exactly the same experiences as me. But our family will be, you know, the two of us and his.

baby brother are there any questions that you dread him asking Lucy yeah I think I think he probably will ask well I imagine he might want to know why Why there isn't a dad in the family or why our family looks different. And I hope he always understands the reasons why. I think I'll talk about the fact that...

I had so much love to give. Some people, Lucy, might say your decision to go alone is a selfish decision. What would you say? to that i i think that um i've got so much love and so much that i know i can offer my little boy and this little one when they're born and I'm bringing a child into a situation where all they will be given is care and everything that they could ever want. And I don't believe that whether...

child's got one parent or two parents is what makes a difference in terms of a child's happiness or their ability to thrive. I think that what's important is the love and the care and the time that you give them. And I always think, though, about what mum would say. Like she always said, nothing ever stays the same. And I think that that is something I've had to really try and embrace because that is life, isn't it? You know, there are always changes and things that you have to adapt to.

watching them get through such difficulty with such grace and humour and just, you know, it was just so inspiring. And I think...

It's probably helped me accept that, you know, life doesn't always go to plan. You know, they were probably thinking about my future as well, my family, the people that were around me. And although they knew that they might not be there to kind of... be part of that i think the fact that they could see that i'd done something that i'd really dreamt of and was amazing for them you know they were really happy about it

everything they built so the relationship I've got with my sisters and and the relationship that my little boy's got with his cousins all of that is to do with them you know and So even though they're not here, our family still feels big and strong. Lucy there, speaking to our reporter Jo... At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer.

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Well, over the next two days, we're going to hear from two other women about their experiences. I mentioned earlier that this is a rising trend. Data from the fertility regulator found that in 2019, just over 3000 single women... in the UK chose fertility treatment using donor sperm. Fast forward to 2022, and that number had jumped to more than 5,000, so an increase of 60% in just three years.

So we're asking why are more women making this decision and what are the ethical, the legal and the practical implications of it? Joining me to discuss in studio, we have Nina Barnsley, director of the Donor Conception Network, which is a charity based in the UK. It offers advice, resources and community to help families navigate the process. I'm also joined by Clare Ettinghausen, a director.

at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority or HFEA. That is the independent regulator for fertility treatment in the UK.

Welcome to you too. Nina, let me begin with you. It's important to be very clear about who we're talking about here. Maybe you can reiterate the difference between solo mums, who we're talking about today, and single mums. Yeah, that's a great start, just to clarify, because there is a bit of confusion probably for people.

Lucy is a solo mum by choice, so she decided she wanted a child and went forward on her own. There's just her, and as she described so brilliantly in her story, there isn't a dad in the picture. So that's not the same as when you've got a couple who, even if they've been together very briefly or for a longer time, they split up and then... You have a single woman, a single mum, but there is another person still around. There is a dad. That person is very often contributing financially.

helping out, taking the children. There's a whole other set of grandparents, cousins, aunties and uncles, that sort of thing. And so there's just another person who's got a strong vested interest in this child who... pick things up when there are challenges, help out if there's an emergency and may often, as I said, be contributing considerable resources, time, money, energy into that child. So doing it on your own is, you know, it's a big step. It's a big step.

one that many are prepared to take, or there is a rise, shall we say, in the numbers that are prepared to take it. Why do you think that is, Nina? I think that's a very complicated answer, probably. I think Lucy described it quite eloquently that she was in a relationship and that didn't end up working out, but that's perhaps what she would have preferred.

And then actually, you know, time moves on and it can be difficult to find somebody that you feel that you trust to have a child with, that you have had enough time to form a relationship that you... You feel that this is secure. And then the time pressure. So for women, there is a pressure time-wise. She was lucky that she was able to conceive just using sperm donation. So lots of our members have had to use double donation. So they're also using an egg donor.

as well as a sperm donor. And that can be another sort of psychological jump for women. Because you won't have a biological connection with that child. Yeah, exactly. And losing that genetic connection can be... more challenging sometimes. But yes, so just that drive, I think she will use the word longing. And that longing that lots of women have for children, if it doesn't...

happen in the way that it might have traditionally happened, then they are seeking these other routes and understandably. So they are the options that people have, donor sperm or double donation. Yes or embryo donation but that's sort of less common. But yes it's normally either sperm donation or double donation. Immediately we can think about many of these challenges that... women will be facing if they're thinking about this. Claire, what do you think they should be very aware of?

So as you said, we've seen a really big increase in the number of single women having treatment, particularly with donor sperm. But, you know, this is a really, really big decision. And having treatment with a donor is, you know, like having children. It's a lifelong decision. weil...

Any child born from donation in the UK, when they turn 18, they can apply to the HFEA to get identifiable information. They can find out the name and address and date of birth of their donor. So anyone thinking about having donor treatment really needs to think. about how might they feel when their child wants to...

contact that donor or perhaps have a familiar relationship with their donor. And anyone having treatment in a UK licensed clinic will by law be offered counselling to think about the implications of their treatment and also before... they consent before they agree to treatment.

really have a think about what it means to have a child with a donor, someone you don't know, and someone who may have, there may be other donor-conceived families in the UK who have the same donor. I suppose what I'd really emphasise for anyone thinking about... having a child alone with a donor is it's always safer to have donor treatment in a UK licensed clinic and there are real dangers of going through a private donation route. What are the dangers?

So there are some very lovely stories of people finding a donor, you know, on Facebook or an introductory website. And it's all very lovely and everyone's very happy. I don't want to take it away from any of those people. But there are also some very horrific stories of people being pressured. to have sex with someone who they don't know. They're being told that this person has health screening. They're being told that this person may have a number of donor-conceived people.

donor conceived children, there's no way of knowing if any of these things are true. So for the health of the women involved and particularly the health of any babies born, it's always safer to have treatment in a licensed clinic. And we've also seen some really horrific stories.

where someone meets someone online to have a donor-conceived child, and the donor goes away, and then a few years later they go through courts to try and have access to the child, try and claim legal parenthood, access to their medical records. about the child's education. And although it may be cheaper financially to find a private donor in the long term, those are health risks and safety risks that we would really discourage anyone from taking. How much does it cost if you go through...

the route that you are suggesting, which would be registered and regulated? So it can cost thousands of pounds to go through treatment in a licensed clinic. So many single women are having donor insemination, which can be... cheaper per cycle, though the success rates can be lower. IVF can cost many thousands of pounds and people are choosing to have IVF.

because the success rates are higher, particularly for single women. Success rates are one of the highest of any category of patient. And also they may end up having embryos created from the same sperm donor that they can then store for future years. future use as we heard from Lucy to try and have a sibling. So that that child that is born would have a connected biological sibling, perhaps even a full.

biological sibling. You mentioned donor insemination, you mentioned IVF. The difference for those for the uninitiated? IVF, much more medicalised. Are those success rates higher? Let me... Come back to you, Nina, because we mentioned there that they have to, by UK law now, have the donor's name, address and date of birth.

But what rights does the donor have or does the donor have any obligation to get back in touch if reached out to? The donor doesn't really make any commitment in terms of their response. They're allowed, I think, to find out how many children, so the year of birth and the sex of any children that are the result of their donation. But they're not able to lead the search or the connection. And they're also not obliged to respond.

And we're hoping that with good counselling, donors really understand the responsibility that they're taking on with this role and that they are open to contact in the future and be able to answer questions that children may have. We heard Nina Lucy teaching her son about his conception. Really...

She was talking about age appropriate, but I mean, he's only he's still very little. So she must have started even younger. Is that the current recommendation? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think she said something very, very wise, which was around starting so that. He's always known. It's kind of bedded into who he is. So there isn't that sit down moment. And I think for single women that they can sometimes be surprised at how.

the questions come either to their child or from their child. So they can be thinking, oh, you know, I'll wait and at some point... You know, my son, my daughter is going to ask a question. And then it just comes out of the blue at the age of two or something before they can almost speak. And they start talking, you know, where's my daddy or, you know, very, very interested in daddies and men.

stories or in in the playground or whatever um and that can really throw women who aren't aren't ready they're not quite sure what are they going to say to those questions and of course the questions that may come from you know work or or friends colleagues oh I didn't know you'd got married or oh I didn't know you had a boyfriend or who's the lucky dad and so even when you're pregnant those questions can start and it can be useful to be a little bit

that it's understandable that people would ask that sort of question. But of course, it can completely catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. What do you cancel in those instances? We would generally say for people to think about it ahead, you don't have to say...

You know, honesty is obviously hugely important, but you don't have to tell everybody everything. And so, yes, certain people you may not want to share any details with and people can actually become quite nosy. So sometimes it can be helpful.

Yeah, to put a bit of a boundary down. But to be ready, I think that's the point, is that you don't quite know when these questions might come, as I said, from your child or from others. And so that's where our organisation in terms of a sense of community, being able to... ask people a bit further down the road who've been through some of these experiences. It's going to be really, really valuable.

Lots of messages coming in. Let's run through a few of them. I am also a solo mum by choice, says this listener. The Donor Conception Network were amazing in their support. In reference to the question, is it selfish? Yes, as is every pregnancy. No child. asks to be born, Lucy is right.

Is the action with love or not? That is what is vital. Another one, Natalie, I've always wanted children, but I'm 35. I'm single. I suffer with long term chronic pain. Income is inconsistent and at the moment it feels unfeasible. to have children on my own at this point. My mum was a single parent as well as an incredibly strong woman. But even she found it tough at times. I mean... Claire, and then I'll come to you, Nina. There's probably certain people that this is not for.

Absolutely. I mean, as you both said, this is a really big decision and something that people will think about for many months or years. And financial circumstances play a huge part in any decision about to have a child in any circumstance. I mean, what I would always say to anyone thinking of going down this route, have a look at the HFEA website, have a look at the Donor Conception Network website. There's a lot of information and support out there for anyone thinking of this route.

Go and speak to some clinics, find out about the process and the cost. But ultimately, if someone is in the position financially and in mental and physical health, then it can be a very rewarding decision for them. But there are unknowables, of course, because... We heard from Lucy there that she very sadly lost both her parents, who were such cheerleaders, it sounded like, for her and for her child. And they died soon after the birth of her son.

How are you thinking about that, Nina? I was wondering your thoughts when you heard that or perhaps also hearing from our listener. Absolutely. Very sad for Lucy, gosh, what a tragedy. But also it reflected very well, I thought, on her that she'd thought about these things ahead of time. She thought, well, how am I going to manage on my own? I need to have a team around me and my child.

And she's still got her sisters and the cousins and there'll be other people in her. It sounds like she's really building a good community network of people that have a... you know, as much of an interest in her child as she does. And that's really, really protective and important. And then relating that to the woman who was not very well and has unpredictable income.

I mean, these are really serious questions for her to think about. It's not for me to say whether she should or she shouldn't. But it's great that she's even thinking in that way rather than just motoring ahead with a decision.

Because it is, you know, I would say that the women in our network who are thriving and doing really well and the children in those families doing well tend to be the ones that have really thought about it. They've prepared. And, of course, you can end up in a lucid situation where something...

completely unexpected happens. However, Lucy is having a second child. She sounds like she's doing brilliantly. So, you know, there's no, there's no, you can manage, you can manage these, these big changes of plan if you've at least... you know thought ahead and put things in place. Just before I let you go we talked about people can be very nosy and wanting to know people's personal business but do you feel there is still a stigma around it?

I wouldn't use the word stigma personally. Okay. But I think there are questions. There's a different way to create a family and there are some downsides and there are certainly some upsides. We shall continue talking about it. Do join me on tomorrow's Women's Hour. We'll hear from Jay, who left her arranged marriage and decided to become a solo mum. For now, I want to thank Nina Barnsley and also Claire Ettinghousing for coming into studio to start.

off our series. Now I want to turn to the Holocaust survivor Eva Schloss, who has died at the age of 96. King Charles is among those who has paid tribute to the co-founder and honorary president of the Anne Frank Trust. Eva was Anne Frank's stepsister. Now, something she discussed when she... joined Jenny Murray on Women's Hour. That was back in 2013. I'm going to bring you a short section of that interview.

I must admit, you know, when my first book came out, Eva Story, the publisher said, you must put on Stepsister of Anne Frank. I was a bit reluctant to do this because I said, well, it's my own story. But, of course, I was not known. Nobody knew Eva Schloss. And through putting Anna's name on, it was acceptable. And so I realized that I am a great connection to her and her.

And, of course, through Otto, I knew a lot more about her. And I accepted that this is what I am. I'm a funk stepsister. But I still resent if people introduce me just as... Anna Frank's stepsister, not Eva Schloss' Anna Frank's stepsister. But, of course, I know her story is very important, and there are, of course, millions of children who have been murdered who had the swellest story.

Kids can't relate to this. And so having one example, reading one story, was very, very important. Holocaust survivor Eva Schlosser, who has died at the age of 96.

Well, next we meet Louise Fettigan, who has just been appointed an MBE for her services to young people. Louise set up the charity Little Troopers to provide specialist support for the children of military families. She saw some of these challenges firsthand after she had her daughter while serving as an officer in the army.

about 100,000 children in families with one or more parents serving in the British military. And even during peacetime, families are required to move the length and breadth of the country, often overseas, every couple of years. I think a good example is Louisa.

daughter who went to 10 schools during the course of her childhood. You're very welcome to the programme, Louise. And congratulations on the MBE. Thank you. Yeah, it's literally very hot off the press. So thank you. I appreciate that. How does it feel? Very unexpected. Yeah, just an honour. And it's not about me. You know, it really is. So many people have created Little Troopers, but the recognition for military children and our little charity.

has been overwhelming I know it was your brother that nominated you that has since died so I'm very sorry for your loss but yeah that was a a special element to find out for sure. What a beautiful legacy. Now you joined the army when you were 17. You met your husband both on deployment in Kosovo when you were 20 and you had your child Madison when you were just...

23, still serving. Yeah, those dates were a bit wrong. So I met my husband when I was 17 and I had my daughter and I got married at 20. Oh, forgive me, forgive me. Thank you for that correction. What were the first challenges you saw as a young woman with this child? It was really difficult. You know, I joined the army and it was one of the best things I ever did. I really enjoyed my time.

I think when it became difficult was juggling being a parent and a soldier. And at the time I had a husband in a war zone as well. And I was only... 2021 living in a foreign country. So when you kind of look at all of those, you know, that was a lot. I was proving myself as a woman in the British Army. I was trying my best to be a parent to a young child and obviously worrying about my husband.

So in the early days, it was really difficult to juggle all those things. And as time went on and I left the military and my husband was deployed and it then became about me. dealing with my stress and my fear of all those deployments.

And when Madison was seven, seeing those challenges that she was experiencing. And that's how Little Troopers came about. And what were they? Can you describe them specifically? Yeah, it was really hard for her. There was so much in the news. My husband was in the household. He was deployed a lot to Iraq and Afghanistan for a long period, six, seven months.

Communication was sporadic and very limited. And it was really difficult. And there was fear. And her brain at that time wasn't developed enough to understand what was going on. I think even if you were older, though, it's very hard. It was difficult. And, you know, that was, you know, 15 years ago when I started the charity. Not a lot has changed even now for military children. There is still all those challenges.

So, I mean, what can you do in that? Because they are the hard facts of life if you've got a parent in the military that has been deployed overseas. that they will be gone and there is a fear, to put it bluntly, that they may be killed. Absolutely. And that is really difficult. And our job as a charity is to ensure that military children understand in a military-specific, age-appropriate...

way they're included in those challenges whether it's deployment whether it's moving home whether it's moving school changing friendships changing of the home environment all these challenges that military children are facing regularly and what can you do i mean i was struck by

the 10 schools that Madison went to. Yeah, absolutely. That is nature of the beast. It's nature of being part of a British Armed Forces family a lot of the time. There are things to mitigate that. Like? Like there's a boarding school allowance that some military families do.

take up for us that wasn't an option that we wanted to to take part in so therefore madison went to state schools and moved and with us and moved you know when she needed to with school so that did lead to lots of schools but you know as a charity we've got little troopers at school we're advocating that schools have a little troop

Club, we are really trying to do our best as a charity to highlight those challenges and support them. I mean, when you talk about little troopers being in schools, do children of military... families find one another in the schools? Is there that community even if they don't stay that long? So it's really different. You know, the British Armed Forces is changing. We're not living on patches. We're not all in one concentrated area. Military family.

are in the community everywhere so there may just be one or two military children at a school and what we're really doing is really advocating that you can support those children in school even if there's only a couple and it really is about making sure they understand that there's other children that are going through exactly the same experiences as them and children being able to draw on that and find the positives from it. Because I'm thinking there's some things that are so...

I mean, both are deep in a way, but one that you might, you have a parent that you're concerned that might be killed. And the other, it might be maintaining a friendship. Absolutely. And a whole raft of everything in between. You know, it's about, you know, my bedroom is changing. My friendships are changing. You know, my daughter hasn't got friendships from her early childhood because she moves so much.

I think what I saw and what I'm keen to get out there is that military children don't have to be disadvantaged. You know, my daughter is now 22. She got a first in her degree. She's an A&E nurse. even though she lived in three countries, went to 10 schools. Which is...

Amazing in many ways, what you will be exposed to culturally, perhaps, which could stand to her, but obviously some of the challenges. But what are you calling for exactly? What would you like to see happen? So I think for us, it's about definitely with schools. It's about them.

really investing time and energy. It's a funded programme, Little Troopers Clubs. We really want to see every school have a Little Troopers Club. And that's really important, whether you've got one military child or your 90% military children. your schools it's really important that that thread of change um that thread of you know when everything else is changing that thread of continuity exists that there's a stability that's there we did uh get a statement from the ministry of defense they say

When a parent serves, the whole family serves alongside them. That's why we work to make sure the children of our personnel aren't disadvantaged, whether that's through funding that follows them to their new school or support services that help families stay connected during deployment. We're also upgrading tens of thousands.

thousands of homes across the country made possible by our landmark deal to bring 36,000 homes back into public ownership and backed by £9 billion investment. Service families give a great deal. We're determined they get the support and housing they deserve in return. What do you think? I mean, I'm not here to talk about housing. That's a whole nother...

you know, conversation and not one that Little Troopers is invested in. For us, it's about military children. And yes, the service people premium does exist, but more needs to be done. you know, that's what we're here to do. MBA will bring a little bit of attention as well to Louise Fettergan. Thank you so much for coming into us here.

on the programme. I want to thank everybody who got in touch with their messages as well. Here's one. I was a single father. I was also raised in a dysfunctional and aggressive household. Ideally, I wish my son had a mother figure, but better to be a... Haunted child by a solo parent than a child raised in an incompatible relationship. Hats off to Lucy, who we heard from earlier. It's no more selfish than a couple's desire.

for Children. 84844 if you'd like your messages to continue coming in because we are going to hear the second story in our Going It Alone series tomorrow. I hope you join me for that. Also, Dr Miriam Stoppard. Her book is... sex, drugs and walking sticks. Also, lots to talk about there. And Sophia Barkley, she'll also join me tomorrow. I hope you will too. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Amol Rajan and from BBC Radio 4, this is Radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it. What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. And also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands.

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