Will We Reach Herd Immunity?

the politics of racial resentment is killing America's heartland. This week, I wanted to talk with Jonathan about the fact that not enough Americans are getting vaccinated and in order for us to hit the seventy percent threshold needed for her immunity in this country, everyone needs to get vaccinated. Our conversation turned into a spirited back and forth about why these people are refusing to get vaccinated and how we can convince them for the greater good of our public health.

We wanted to share our entire half hour chat with you, unedited and unfiltered, to give you the full picture of the health crisis we are continuing to face in this moment. To hear more conversations like these every single week, five days a week, consider supporting me and woke AF daily

on Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke AF. Folks, you know that when it is a Wednesday, I'm always so excited to be joined by our favorite doctor in the house, doctor Jonathan Metzel, to talk to us about the latest with the coronavirus, with gun violence, with dying of whiteness. You know him, you have read his book, which is pretty much our guide in this current apocalypse that we are living in. Jonathan news has been circulating.

Headlines are all saying the same thing, America is not going to reach hard immunity, that our desire for the vaccine has reached a lateau where the people that have wanted to get the vaccine got it. This CDC is now opening, will excuse me, Fiser now has a vaccine that is going to be able to be distributed now

for people from the ages of twelve to fifteen. My assumption one is that obviously they were looking for vaccination that was going to be safe for younger people, but two that if we can get that group vaccinated by the parents and caregivers that actually give a damn, then we will get closer and closer to that seventy percent, which will identify for us the area that we can

say that we can reach hard immunity. Tell me what these headlines mean to you and what they are forecasting for the future of America and its battle with the COVID nineteen. Well, so many thoughts about this. I mean, it's such massive news. I guess a couple things. I mean, number one, let's just be clear, we have a vaccine that works. If everybody got vaccinated, we would add the pandemic. And so why didn't Why didn't we get that right?

I mean, I think that there was so much hope leading up to the vaccine that like, oh, people are crazy about masks, then they're crazy about washing their hands. But when the vaccine comes out, everybody will kind of alining get the vaccine because of course we want to go back to normal. But we did. We did go back to normal. We going back to polarized normal. And so you know, I guess there's a couple ways to

read this. And just to be clear, if people don't get vaccinated, then it makes us more susceptible to variants, It makes us more susceptible to the virus mutating. And this whole thing starting over. It makes us more susceptible

to a brutal fourth wave on the fall. So there are real world implications to what we're seeing now, which is that we have more vaccines than we have people who are willing to get the vaccine, which is the opposite of the problem everywhe else in the world where people would like, you know, eat their lawnmower for a vaccine, right, but we don't have that. We have the opposite problem. And so what do you call that? You call that ignorance? Do you call that privilege? Do you call that whatever?

Let's just be rhetorical here for a minute. Let's assume that people are rational actors, right, I mean, I know it's far fact, so I need to suspect, I need to suspend reality. Okay, let's let's do that. I mean, because this is a new virus and this is a new vaccine, and so how did we get to the point where like thirty or forty percent of people aren't

going to get to the vaccine? You know, I think you could say there's the easy answer, which to me is ungratified, like, oh, they're dumb, or they're racist, or they're whatever, Like, you know, great, but let's assume that they're they're acting as part of a particular belief system. Right. That belief system is mistrust in science, mistrust in authority.

Somebody's telling them not to do it. I think for me, the question is like, how do you address that belief system right in a way that you know that I

don't know. I just feel frustration because on one hand, of course we want people to get the vaccine, but didn't we see from masks, for example, that there are massive, massive disinformation campaigns that try to foment polarization and benefit from it monetarily, right, And so with masks, for example, the whole Trim campaign was built on making people not wear masks and not believing it. And with vaccines it's

even quadrupled. Right. There are huge, huge disinformation campaigns that are based on people making money by people not getting vaccinated, right, selling other kinds of concoctions that they have financial interests, or treatments that are crafted, or just keeping the pandemic going and making an endemic. So in a way, it wasn't just like, oh, hey, good citizens of America, here's

the vaccine enlightenment. I mean, we would hope that's true, but if there wasn't also a strategy for disrupting the disinformation campaigns, then this is going to be the outcome in a particular way. And so I guess I mean, just to be clear, I hate this pandemic. It's ruined everything, and I wanted to be over and I want everybody to get vaccinated. But I also think that we get into this kind of virtue binary on our side of either you're on the side of knowledge or you're like

a frigging dipshit who just loves the coronavirus. And that binary itself is something we should have strategies for. And so I believe me, I'm very critical. I mean, I just spent an hour doing a focus group trying to convince people what would it take for you to get the vaccine? I'm living this right now, So tell us, Jonathan. Because outside of the brilliant people that make time to come on Woke a f I don't really talk to a lot of regular people, right, So let me let

me just be honest. I really don't. I don't spend a lot of time talking to like regular middle of the road Americans. I don't even know what that actually means. But the people that I talk to on a regular basis are highly educated, and so there is a ski that's there. What are folks saying because one of the I will say this, I saw a tweet go around yesterday that said one hundred and fifty million people have gotten the vaccine. Right, one hundred and fifty million Americans

have gotten the vaccine. None of them have died. But five hundred and eighty seven thousand Americans caught the coronavirus and did in fact die. Right, that's our death toll, give or take. You know, it's still early in the morning where we are. What the fuck is the rationale right now? Where you can look at the vaccine and say millions, hundreds of millions of Americans have gotten it and no one's dead, No one's lost the limb, no one lost their eyesight, None of this bullshit that people

are feeding to Americans has actually happened. But you know what has happened is that over half a million Americans are dead because of the coronavirus. So what is their rationale? And these focus groups for saying I am so afraid of this vaccine, I'm more afraid of what could possibly keep me and my family and my community safe than I am. The virus that I know for certain, over the last three hundred and sixty five fucking days has

killed nearly a million Americans. Well, I love these conversations. This is the real conversation. But I would also say that even your question made an assumption that is potentially part of the problem. No, no, no, yes, you made an assumption that you speak to educated people, but everyday people aren't educated anyway. I know, I know that's not

what you meant. No, it is like it actually is what I meant, because I believe that if you believe in facts and science, and doctor Faucci is not your enemy, and you believe in the people who have spent their careers in science, in development of vaccinations, in research and data, and you are not believing those people, but you are believing Tucker Carlson. Yes, I actually it was not an oversight. I meant what I said. So let me reframe that question in a way that I think is a different

way to think about it. Right, Because I've interviewed lots of people who are very educated. I've interviewed people whose own parents ended up in the ICU from COVID and so there's something about this belief system. But let's think about this in a very different way. And again I realized, just to highlight what we're up against here, I think that's kind of my point. But imagine that you're trying

to sell something to the country. Imagine you're trying to sell the vaccine, as one example, you get a dollar for every vaccine you get somebody to take. And what would your strategy be for reaching people right in a certain kind of way. And so there are certain people who are just going to You're going to get a dollar forever for them because they're going to run out

and get the vaccine. But then there are other people bold who they're hearing all this other information, their idea of education is something different because the people around in their community is you know, their community is saying something. We know that vaccine hesitancy, for example, comes out of community and communities. And then there's also a competitor who wants that dollar from them to not get the vaccine.

And that person is pumping like it's almost like the smell when you walk by subway and they pump out that bread smell that's fake. But that person is pumping out fake information the other way. So what would you do to address those people? If your goal is to get everybody vaccinated, you would try to say, well, what's their world view and how can I appeal to it in a particular way. How could I sell something to them?

You kind of want to craft a message that works to them in a particular way, and then the next time that happens, you would do it in advance, before the disinformation machine has a right, has an ability to take it over. Now, I understand a lot of people are working. I get that, but I'm just saying that you have to recognize that in a way, it's not just about, oh, those people are uneducated. It's that there's a whole machine that's shaping their opinion in a way

that we don't address in any way directly enough. I mean, I think we made this mistake very, very badly in the beginning of the pandemic, where we were like, of course, wear a mask because that's going to protect your family and your community and all that kind of stuff. But we didn't realize that there was a whole other, massive industry on their side that was saying that's you know,

I mean basically there are two. It's not any mystery if you tell you know, conservative people in parts of the country, it's government overreach and it's taking away your liberty. Or black people are going to cut in front of you in line and get resources that are meant for you. Those two narratives you can get people to do pretty much anything. So the question is if we know that, what are we going to do to disrupt that narrative? Right?

It can't be telling people that they're uneducated. That can't be the answer. No, And let me tell you that would probably a reason why I am not a spokesperson for anybody other than wok F Nation, But I think that in order to sell right, you have to know what is most appealing to people. So for me, I would take a page out of Oh, I don't know every single friggin Instagram, ad pusher, Facebook ad pusher, used car salesman, what have you, which is appealing to nostalgia right?

For me? Do you know what I think would get people back are commercials of showing them the pictures of their old life, right, pictures of you being able to just you know, go to the grocery store, pick up your kid from school, attend a game, hug your friends, like just a montage and say we are on our way back to we are only halfway there, like this is what we need to get you all the way there.

And I would pump those out in every single type of commercial, Instagram, social media advertisement that appeals to people for thirty five to sixty seconds, right with songs that hit from each generation about like reconnecting with community and re emerging from lockdown. Right. But the problem here is that you have states like Florida, Texas, Tennessee and others that never fully went down into lockdown and now they're

just going but gangbusters. And I want to know your thought to Jonathan on where New York is and what New York is getting ready to do in the next two weeks on May nineteenth, with everything one hundred percent open, and tell me you're feeling about that. But that is how I believe that if I were in charge, how I would start selling the vaccine. Okay, well, that's a great answer. That's a beginning of an answer, because what you're doing is you're putting yourself in the position out

of the seller, but of the consumer. Right in a certain kind of way, which public health doesn't do. That's my point here. Public health never does this. So you just vaccinated half the resistant people because they looked and they watched you know, the beach boys, and they got it all nostalgic. And then the other half of the people you have to actually understand what drives them. And I have no expertise there. I'm just I've studied guns for fifteen years and I've seen the gun control movement

below this point. That's why this is where my opinions are coming from. But the other half of the people, you've got to understand their catchwords. And maybe there's no right answer here, but catchwords like liberty and freedom, and so if it was me, it's part of it is community and getting back to life. You'll get half the people that way, but the other half, why don't you take the liberty What about the vaccine liberty movement or the vaccine freedom movement? You know, getting vaccinated is a

form of liberty. It's a way of sticking it to the government. You can, you know, all these kinds of things. So one of the words co opt their narrative and then feed it back to them in a way that serves your own goal. If your own goal is getting everybody vaccinated, take their narrative and flip it back to them. And I'll tell you who does this really well, it's the NRA, right, The NRA is now selling guns, calling

themselves a civil rights movement. You know, their ads now are like, the police aren't going to protect you, buy a gun because they're going to protect you. So they take they take the tensions of the other side, they identify them, and they flip them for their own purposes. And it just frustrates me, Like, you know, didn't we learn from mask that just appealing to public health and you know, it just it just it doesn't work for

half of people. And if our goal is to get everybody involved, we should be taking the themes of the other side and then flipping them for our own purposes. And you know, again, I just think that that's better than telling people like what the hell's wrong with you or something? If our goal, again, our goal is strategically to get everybody vaccinated. And so you know, again, I've been thinking about this a lot because I study guns, right, and the whole gun control movement is based on people

are dying, damn it. And it's true, people really really are dying. But we've went hook like in line and sinker for the public health model. But the people who are selling guns, it's all about liberty and freedom and autonomy. And so how come we can't take that and say guns aren't liberty, you're chained to the gun industry or something like that, like something that actually takes their theme and flips it. But when we're just saying, oh, it's a public health model, I just feel like it lets

the other side politicize science. And I guess the reason I'm telling you this is because I see us doing exactly the same thing here, you know, and there are people way smarter than me doing this. But I will say, having done a lot of focus groups, I just feel like we're not speaking the language that people understand enough.

And really, what it does is it gives people like the Santas and people like that total free reign to never have to answer to their own people, right, So that miss those descantists and Trump people are not looking to They don't ask any questions, do you know what I'm saying? Like, I think, to me, what is the scariest point of where we are is that those people

don't ask questions. They are just blind followers. Right. So the Tucker Carlson's and the Trumps and the Descantists and all of those people, they got vaccinated, right, Like, let's all be one hundred percent clear that they all got vaccinated, but are willingly telling their people not to. Right. But the question is what price do they pay for them? Right now, we make I mean, they don't pay any price for them. And that's part of the issue, right,

there's no price. It's only benefit for them. They they've monetized conflict, they've monetized polarization, they've monetized hate. So they actually get rewarded, financially rewarded for positions that rip our country in half. And the question is where is the place where they pay a price for it? Right? Certainly are I can see, oh that they pay a price for it, But where are there certain other words, This is just a totally cress stupid example. But vaccines, vaccine liberty,

vaccine freedom. Why is Tucker Carlson blocking your vaccine freedom? You know, something like that, like make him answer to his base in the language that he's using. But just flip it on its head. Again, this is just a theory on my part, having studied you know what, I feel like our unnecessary tensions between public health and popular opinion. But I feel like we haven't done enough to counter

politicize public health in ways that answers this. So, how come Tucker Carlson doesn't have to answer for blocking people's vaccine freedom? You know something like that, you know, make him answer, why are you blocking our American god given liberty and chance to expand Medicaid? That's part of what it means to be an American. You're blocking our healthcare freedom,

you know, stuff like that. And I don't understand a lot of people are working on this, but I'm just saying that it's easy to fall into the trap of like we're smart and they're dumb, because you know, who wouldn't get a vaccine for everything we've seen, right, it seems so compensible. But I also think it's important to disrupt these very racializing narratives in ways that make people on the defensive, make them answer to their own constituencis.

I feel like we never do. I like this. I'm also on the hook for writing an op ed, and I'm just like, oh, maybe I go after Tucker Carlson, which I haven't done for years. Part of the problem I think that we're experiencing, particularly with this administration, is that sometimes when you were steeped in too much goodness, too much belief, that the American people are inherently good, right, and that they just got distracted by the bad man Trump. But as soon as the good people come in, then

they'll come back to their senses. And that I believe is honestly the belief of this administration. Like, oh, they you know, they're right now out there in the streets talking about how America is not a racist country, and I'm like, we don't get anywhere by continuing to lie.

We don't advance, we don't develop, we don't grow by continuing a narrative that is a lie, right, And so I believe that inherently they think that Americans, you know, are this good, loving people, and so we're going to use this a one size fits all type of strategy, which is just about love of country, love of community, love of self. And that's why you're getting the vaccine,

And isn't that why everybody's getting the vaccine? And the reality is that, no, you have a group of people who believe like wholeheartedly in science and that is what has dictated their movements. Then you have people that are just like, oooh, I'm on the fence, I'm getting misinformation. I don't really know who to trust, and isn't the healthcare industrial complex like all about money anyway? And what

is this really going to do for me? And then you have other people that are just like, fuck this. I'm an American. You don't get to tell me what to do. So in a two year old tantrum, I'm going to say, I'm not getting the vaccine because you want me to get the vaccine and I don't like you. So that's what I'm going to do. Listen. I mean, I'm feeling very I'm feeling very counterpointy today, so I'm going to push back on that, and I like counterpoint Jonathan.

And let me just say this. Imagine that our goal is to get everybody vaccinated. That's our goal. Our goal is not to say we're on the good side and they're on the bad side. Our goal is to get everybody vaccinated. How are you going to do that? Right? Fox News figured this out and I figured this out in the opposite But for our side, what's the best way to get people to do that. It's not telling people that they're dumb, are uneducated. That's not going to work.

It's just going to reinforce their idea that we're a bunch of elites and they're a bunch of like everyday people. So how can you use the material we have? I mean, I personally feel like a minute we're arguing about whether America is racist or not, if we're on that terrain, we've already lost. We're lost because it's like it's like, great, let's have that argument for the next nine thousand years. Uh. And it's just you know, when we're on that battlefield,

it's the long battlefield for us. So there are ways we can manipulate the system toward our own goals. We just don't do it. I mean, if you want everybody in the South to get vaccinated, go down there and say you're just going to vaccinate black people. You know, as one example, like oh my god, Like I say, we have this great new vaccine, it's it's liberty and freedom, but only black people can get it. Um, trust me, you would solve the anti vax problem in fifteen minutes.

You know, something like that. So in other words, it's it's kind of like you're not paying attention to the tensions of the other side, right, Yeah, in a way, it's more like, oh, I'm good and I'm smart and you're bad. Who wouldn't want it? And you know, it does seem that way from from where we sit. But I would also say that you're not you're not addressing or entering or in some cases manipulating the system, and it just opens the door for the kind of counter

manipulations that we see. I mean, Kentucky is a great example. Kentucky early in the pandemic and a mark of genius said we're going to use the pandemic to give health insurance to every black citizen of our state. All of a sudden, all these white people are like, wait, I want I want health insurance. Also give me some health insurance. Because what they recognize is like it's a it's a zero sum kind of thing and you know that kind of thing. And so what it is to recognize the

tension and instead of debating is Kentucky racist or not? Yeah, Kentucky's racist, it said let's let's you know, let's take this and figure out what end point we want if our endpoint is everybody getting health insurance, and I feel like we don't do that with the vaccine. It's you know, and things like that. And so in a way, what it does is it opens us up for this kind of binary of either you're on the side of public

health or there's something wrong with you. And again, I feel like we do the same thing with guns, with everything else like that. It's kind of like wet it's too we let the other side too easily manipulate the distrust of science and authority, and then we just end up having debates about well, of course doctor Fauci is smart and all this kind of stuff. Like the matter we're having those arguments were toats. We should be yep, to be counterattacking in ways that are much more aggressive

and put the other side back on the heels. I agree one hundred percent, Jonathan, and I think that understanding where people are coming from and understanding who people really are is the key to winning this. To your point, you're absolutely right. If we had opened rolled out the vaccination campaign with saying that the only people that we're going to get vaccinated in the beginning, we're black and brown people, my God, by the time that it had

gotten to the second tier. You're one hundred percent right. They would have been with the pitchforks and all of the ship that they had for the insurrection outside of your local CBS and Walgreens in order to get the vaccine that they thought was only going to be given

to black or brown people. And the problem here is that we don't manipulate people in the right way because that is part of our virtue of being democrats and thinking that like you're going to you're going to have this one size fits all approach and not admitting to the fact that, yeah, in order to use that strategy, you would have to understand and believe white people in

some respects in some areas that the country are inherently racist. Right, So appeal to that also, that they're actors acting on a certain set of belief systems that are different from our own belief systems. Right. In other words, we often assume that they are irrational actors, and they're not. They're acting based on a set of beliefs they happen to not be the ones we believe in. Right, we're not racist, but it's not like they're acting randomly, right. I think

that's that's also part of the issue. So you know, before I was we should have the vaccine ad be um. If you have a four hour erection from the vaccine, see your doctor immediately. That would get a lot of people to get the vaccine. But I just think, you know what I mean, we're not strategic enough about like tapping into people's beliefs, anxieties, concerns, while the other side is doing that as right, and so it's not let's just be clear, I'm not saying the other side is evil.

I'm saying that people are acting based on belief systems and we don't take that into account when it's just like, oh damn it, Jim, I'm a scientist, you know that kind of thing. That's our side, and so we never we never put people like Tucker Carlson on their heels. They never have to answer for how come they're getting the vaccine and we're not, like, we never do that, and so in a way, we never turn those belief systems into liabilities for the other side, which is what

I think we should be doing more. You know, Jonathan, as always, you have given us a lot to think about today. So we navigate where we're headed. If we're just going to live with the coronavirus for the rest of our lives because of the population is in a place of refusal, and then what does that mean? What does that mean for the UK variant, the India variants, is South African variant, the New York variant, the California

But what does that mean? And for me, actually, the last thing that I do want to ask you because I think that it's important because of where we are. You and I in New York. What are your thoughts on the May nineteenth, New York City is back and it's summer in New York and everything is open. I think this is a move to try to save the economy,

you know, I need just to be honest. I think that what we're seeing is way too many businesses going out of business, So many restaurants are closing, and so I think right now, I still think it's important to keep the message as much as we can. The vaccinations and social distancing and doing things outside whenever you can, and washing your hands, those things are still really important. But without tourism, New York is in big trouble, right,

stuff like that, and so in a way. I just think it's an acknowledgement that there's a lot of tourism in Texas and Florida and our economy is really going to be in big trouble if we don't catch it up. But I still think that as much as New York can continue with and social distancing matters and eat outside whenever you possibly can, and wash your hands and all these kind of things, those things are still really important.

And so if we can demonstrate a kind of socially responsible reopening, I mean, I realized that's a big thing, and not a reopening that then people turn and say, and therefore, what do I care about? Public health? Then will be okay. Now the issue is, of course, the coronavirus, among other things, is obviously very seasonal, and so the summer should be okay depending on how this goes. But in the fall and the winter, what I'm saying the

key is getting as many people baccinated as possible. That's really the key right now, because when the thing starts on the fall, the more people vaccinated, the better off, the better off we're going to be. And so you know, I understand it's a balance. It's not like, oh, public health of monthside and the economy on the other. They're related, and I get that. So I hope that people in New York also remember that all the other stuff is still true. And if you don't believe that, just turn

on the news any night. So it's it's got to be all of those things. But again, I just think that you know, you just you know, it's a balance of the pandemic and the economy in our system. Jonathan, as always, thank you so much for a robust conversation. I liked our tit for tat today. This is actually very helpful. Well, and again we have to remember our goal. It's not to virtue signal. Our goal is to get as many people to get the vaccine as humanly possible.

And to do that, imagine you're a salesperson. I mean, that's really that's what I tell people when I speak to public health audiences. Don't think about it as just yours. You You have brilliant, world changing science on your side, but that's not enough. Imagine you're a salesperson. What are you going to do? Yeah? Until next week, Jonathan, stay safe, stay healthy. If you want to share your thoughts about my conversation, with Jonathan or have your own perspective on

the fight to get Americans vaccinated. Get at me on Twitter at D two cents d e E two c e nts, and once again, if you want to hear more in depth conversations five days a week every week, you can join the Woke a F Nation on Patreon at patreon dot com slash woke af. I would love to see you in the comments over there as well. Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.