We're Losing Everywhere

gun reform in this country. But it's predicated on an awful fucking video that is going around on TikTok that I've seen reposted on Joey Read from MSNBC's Instagram page. Viola Davis, actress, reposted on her page, and it is if you haven't seen this video, because I by the time that this recording come out, I will have done a TikTok of my own. It is a video of an Alabama school district that has rolled out a new product, which is a whiteboard that pulls out into a bulletproof

shelter safe room for your kids in the classroom. It is the most obscene fucking thing that I have seen ever. And the reason why it's going viral is because people in this country and other countries are like, Wow, classrooms are supposed to be safe spaces. Schools are supposed to

be safe fucking spaces. The fact that Americans would rather build safe rooms and monetize bullet proof backpacks so monetize childhood trauma instead of voting for politicians that care more about our fucking children and our nation's safety than they do their fucking donor base is absurd. But you know, let's hand it to Americans to be able to fucking

monetize every goddamn thing, including your children's trauma. You know, we are now living with the first generation of active shooter drill children who are now Gen z's, graduating from college, entering into the workforce. They've been doing active shooter drill since they were three fucking years old. We have created an entire generation of traumatized, depressed, and anxiety riddled children that how are now adults who have never known safety ever.

Think about that. Think about your own childhood. Think about the fears that you might have had, the normal fears, right the boogeyman, you know, maybe the bully at school, maybe standing up and giving your presentation. But nobody from the boomers to the gen xers to most of the millennials ever had to fear getting shot dead in their classroom, getting shot dead at their place of worship, getting shot dead at the mall. But this is what we are

doing now. We're creating bulletproof whiteboard safe rooms inside of classrooms instead of passing gun reform. What in the entire fuck? So coming up next, friends, my conversation with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, who has a new book that will be coming out next year, folks, on this

very issue, folks. I can't tell you how excited I am to welcome back to woke F Daily doctor Jonathan Metzel, our friend and the author of Dying of Whiteness, who is working on a new book that I can't wait to read and discuss here on Woke f when it comes out. Jonathan, it's been a while, and sadly, in the time that we have not been together, there have been so many mass shootings, more mass shootings that have

happened than days in the year thus far. This week, President Biden went to Moderate, California, the site of the shooting that was targeted at the Asian American community during the Lunar New Year celebration. There, he spoke about you know how many times he has done this, the fact that we need sensible gun reform. It's the same conversation that unfortunately he has had as Vice president and now

as president of the United States. And so I just want to get initially your reactions to his speech and where we find ourselves right now in twenty twenty three. Well, I appreciate that President Biden did something. I think it's symbolically important. I think where he did it is important, and I think that it's also important that he signals that he's not going to let this issue diet, that

he's going to keep at it. But I would also, of course admit a frustration because but democratic presidents can do are largely symbolic executive orders that can easily be

overturned if a Republican takes over. That's what we saw with President Obama after his frustration that nothing really got passed after Sandy Hook and all the all the uproar after that, tried to work with people, tried to work with people, and then ultimately passed a bunch of really I think, really good executive orders keeping guns away from

people with serious amounts of illness or convictions. Another thing President Obama did was invest in smart gun technology to guns that could only be fired by recognizing the palm print of somebody who owned them, which I think would be great. But the minute Trump took over, he just overturned all that stuff, and so really there's a kind of back and forth nature of it. And of course the other part is that a lot of things that are signed by executive order really aren't implemented that much

in states that have really strong gun lobbies. So California, we're you know, California's already doing a lot of the things that President Biden had suggested, enhanced background checks, other kinds of factors, but it's limited because it's surrounded by states like Arizona where there are hardly any gun laws, and so it really can't stop the flow of guns

into its borders. And so again, I think this is an ongoing struggle, obviously a polarizing struggle struggle, but I just to be honest, as somebody who's studied this for a long time, I think it's important to keep going. But of course there's always frustration that we just keep going back and forth about the same issues of background checks and red flag laws, when really what we're talking about is a much bigger issue about polarization and public

safety and race and guns in America. You know, Jonathan, what I find so troubling about where we are right now, and I feel like, you know, for the past I don't even know, it's been three years now since you and I have been in deep conversation about so many issues that are affecting Americans every single day. But when I see President Biden, you know, once again, do exactly what she said. You know, he provides a moral barometer, right, he gives a speech, he is empathetic, and he does

what any responsible president of this country would do. But at the end of the day, we know that that community and Moniti. Since that shooting actually happened, there have been I think roughly sixty plus shootings that have happened, right because we know that mass shootings are identified as

four people shot or more at a time. So since then, you know, there have been countless and not everybody gets a headline, and not everybody gets the met the attention unless it's gruesome, unless the ages of the victims are young, unless it's a marginalized community that was targeted. You know, this is Republicans problem. This is the problem of Republicans

solely right. That if we had the will of the Republican Party to recognize that young children shouldn't have to learn how to army crawl and begin active shooter drills at three years old in this country, that that shouldn't be a norm of what it means to grow up in America, we wouldn't be here. So explain to me and just your thoughts on where parents and caregivers are in this country, because this to me, Jonathan, Yes, I

understand the gun manufacturers make money. I understand the gun lobby is a billion dollar industry, and I understand that Republicans, you know, have written their souls off in blood in order for donors right from the NRA. But this has got to be beyond four parents and caregivers, beyond a partisan issue. Unfortunately, it is a superpartisan issue. It's an identity issue for a lot of people, and so of

course I definitely, definitely, definitely agree with you. I wish that we could come together to make school safe, and workplace is safe, and shopping mall safe and every place else that has been targeted by this horrible violence. But I think that the split really is how people respond to it. I mean, I've been doing this kind of work for a long time, and I think that the false dichotomy that we get into is like Democrats want gun safety and Republicans wants shootings, Like nobody really, when

it comes down to it, really wants shootings. Are we sure? Because when you have I mean, honestly, I think about this because when you have, right, I saw another headline this week which was that a four year old got a hand of a gun in Texas that was not locked up and shot and killed their three year old sibling. Right, That's a normal headline in places that have loosened or completely erased any type of gun safety. Right. But I guess the let me let me just what I mean.

I mean that Republicans are so programmed to think that more guns is the answer to every one of these provocations. So it's not like they're pro shooting. I think that's a I think that's a misnomber that the Democrats get into. But I will say that there's no provocation to which the answer for many GOP voters and RA supporters isn't isn't more guns? And so when they hear that there's a mass shooting, the automatic responses, man, I wish I would have had a weapon at that time. I would

have stopped this. And when they hear that there's any kind of robbery or crime or anything like that, all the stuff that the GOP amplifies, the answer isn't let's make communities safer for everyone. It's I wish I wish I had my gun that moment. So that's kind of the ingrained logic, which of course is tied into logic that is as old as this country that is very racialized, that white Americans get to carry guns, that white that

guns are, you know, symbols of white protection. So there's a whole history here going into it, and the question is what do you what do you do about that? Are you trying to reason with centrist gun owners? Are you trying to just create laws that force them to go along? Are you trying to fortify blue states? I just think that the minute you start thinking like, what really is the answer to what we're facing right now, it's it's a bigger issue than it seems, even with

all these mess shootings. And I'm not trying to sound like I'm talking around in circles. But as you can hear from the way I'm talking about this, I've been writing a book about this exact issue for the last ten years now, and the diagnosis for me is very easy. But the question of where we go in this country is really complicated. Let me give you an example. One of the main things we suggest as Democrats, right is background checks. Right initially, we say background checks on all

gun purchases. That's one of the things that Biden just did. Well. I agree we need background checks on all gun purchases. They're way too many loopholes, but we already have four hundred and fifty million guns in this country roughly, and that's almost one hundred million more guns that we have people. And so even if you implemented background checks right now on every single gun purchase, which isn't going to happen,

you still have more guns than people. And so it would take you three hundred years probably to get to

even that out in a way. And so the suggestions that were I just feel like the suggestions that we're positing honestly as Democrats, are way they under estimate the problem, or do they under they're not answers to the problem we're facing so right now we have watched it's mark and there are over three hundred pieces of legislation that have been rolled out to restrict drag performances or ban them, to deny trans kids gender affirming care, to ban books,

to do all of these radical fascist ideas and bring them into fruition in red states across this country, you know. And their hope is that in twenty twenty four they'll be able to nationalize their chrystal fascist beliefs. When I look at how rapidly they're moving to target the LGBTQ community, to target the Black community, to target the Jewish community, there seems to be no guardrails on how quickly legislation can get passed and be operationalized. The same thing has

happened with abortion. So we look to the president to guide us right, and for so long we were taught that the president is the most powerful person in all the land. But it turns out that Ron De Santis actually is. It turns out that Greg Abbott actually is. It turns out that Sarah Huckaby Sanders actually is. These are governors in right states. So again, when I think about the core of the problem, it isn't just an ideological one, Jonathan, or or values based one or lack thereof.

It's also the fact that Democrats have put all of their eggs in the executive branch and none at the state level. Can you speak to that, no, I mean, that's my frustration. That's kind of the core argument of my book is that. And let me just be clear, part of what I'm showing is that guns are a core aspect of the ideology and the movement that you've just talked about. So it's no mistake that, for examples, to Santist right now is overturning Florida's gun laws, right

Texas gun laws. Loose gun laws have propelled people like Abbot to power. In Tennessee right now, they are overturning every single gun law in Tennessee. We they just passed a bill or are about too that anyone eighteen year old and over can open kerry in public, an AK forty seven or an AAR fifteen with no training, no permit whatsoever. And so, in a way, guns are a

massive aspect of this issue. And I feel like it's not just about executive I feel like for too long Democrats have kind of told themselves, well, bad gun policies are just a red state problem. They're just something happening down there. But here in New York we have, you know, tight gun laws, so we have much more public health.

And I think that was part of the lie that Democrats told themselves, is that the country wasn't connected, that the aims of this movement, which is symbolized by loose gun laws and more public carried guns, was just going to stay in the South, when when we're seeing with the Supreme Court, for example, right now, or with the judge in Texas right now overturning MIFFI pristone is that

this movement really has national implications and national designs. And so I think we've woken up too late to the fact that red state politicians, pro gun politicians were building really an orc army in a certain kind of way, like a kind of red state movement that really the aim wasn't just to have bad gun policy in Tennessee, it was to take over the country in the Supreme Court, and so I certainly think that a much more ambitious

national response that starts with taking grassroots movements the way I mean the Republicans de Santa started by taking over the school boards and public health boards. Look what's happening in Tennessee right now with city commissions and so playing the game of investing in local politics is where the

Democrats have to start completely agree. You know, here's the thing, Jonathan, and you know, I hate to be Debbie Downer, right, this is a Downer conversation, right, which is that we're losing, yeah, right, like I mean. And not only are we losing in terms of policy, we're losing in the courts, We're losing in the states. We're losing everywhere. And I posted this,

I joked on Mary Trump Show the other day. I posted this very scientific poll on Twitter, and I asked folks if they thought that they were going to see the end of democracy in their lifetimes. And I'm assuming that people are my age or older. And when the poll came back after you know, twenty four hours, the majority of people said yes, that they believed that democracy will be done in their lifetime. And I'm not talking about twenty thirty years from now. I'm actually talking about

you know, two, five, maybe ten at most. Tell me something, is there a going backwards here to sense, to logic, to shared values in morals and if there's not, then what the fuck are we all doing? Do you know what I'm saying, Like in all honesty, because I people ask me all the time, like we're losing. I need to move right, You're telling me it doesn't really matter if you move from Florida to New York, or Texas to Washington, or you know, or Alabama to Oregon. It

doesn't fucking matter. You're not safe anywhere. So at this stage, I'm just like, so, what the fuck are we all doing? This is not sour grapes. Okay, it's a little sour grapes. But the initial title of my book, which was rejected by my publisher was how We Lost a Requiem for Liberal America. That was my working title, and they said, nobody's going to buy a book about losing, and we're not losing anyway. All the publishers, of course, are in New York. They don't see what I see in Tennessee.

And I'm like, no, we're actually losing. So I actually showed them one of your tweets and I'm like, look,

we're losing. People agree we're losing, but they don't. But I think that we need to figure out like why we lost, Like as I completely agree with you, And the answer that I give about why we lost is that this stuff that's happening in the country right now that people in New York and Los Angeles and Honolulu and other Democratic strongholds that are urban cities largely seats of power, it's been happening in the South for a

long time. And I think that really what we needed was a Southern strategy to say, hey, look, the whole country's connected, and we're going to aggressively intervene into the South and really try to change the issue in the South. What we did was we let a Republican power base grow in the South in a way that then is

taking over the country. And so my answer for that is we need to learn from first of all, from the lessons of the past, Like what would it have taken to win in my home state of Missouri when the NRA took over the state, really or in Tennessee when they rejected the affordable character to fight back against that would be to fight on the ground of racial politics, to fight on the ground of learning for local elections, to instill science and common sense and other factors. But

we didn't do that. We kind of let the South go. We didn't have a kind of reverse Southern strategy. And so I think that's what we're that's what we're seeing

right now where that's that's my read on it. And so the question of our people going to wake up right now, I guess I would just ask you, like, which people are going to wake up right because people in half the country have already been living under the regime that you're talking about for quite some time, and it's led to more power for this agenda, not less

power for it. I mean, I guess my feeling is that, by the way, would you would you buy a book called How We Lost or Recoring for Liberal America because you're my friends? Yeah, Okay, fine, Okay, I like the new working title that you have that you don't want to use. Okay, Okay, that's what I like. Okay, But I think that we're at a time where we got an actual war that is being waged through mass shootings and lack of gun reform, and not even lack of

gun reform. Republicans aren't even in the lack of gun reform type of place they're in the everyone gets a gun as soon as you come out of the womb type of place, right like, this is a hellscape. And I see this getting drastically worse over the next two, five, ten, twenty thirty years. I think that the first half of my life, where things seem like they were going in the right direction, every generation was afforded something better than

previous generations. That that's dead and gone. And I think that a lot of Americans, more so than not, are conscious right to that, which is why there's a war on wokeness. They don't even know how to fucking define it, frankly, but there's a war on wokeness because they prefer people to be asleep and scared. So I guess the last question for you is you know you've spent your entire career trying to diagnose this problem. To me, your book

Dying of Whiteness did diagnose the problem. It's whiteness, it's white supremacy, it's Christo fascism, it's you know, the belief that so long if I'm doing bad is fine, so long as the person down the street that's of color is doing worse, then that's great, right, And the fact that you can monetize that you can sell that you can keep, you know, recreating these characters, these minions to sell this bullshit. And I'm just wondering, like, do you see hope in our future? Or do you just see

an increase in violence? How much time do I have to answer that question, I mean, take all the time you'd like, do I see hope? Well, let me ask you really quickly, rights that, do you see hope in our future? I am you know, some days, some days I see hope in the future. I see that there are more people that are conscious to inequity, to injustice, to the lies of capitalism, to the indoctrination of patriotism. I see hope in that. But do I think that I'm going to see change in my lifetime? No? Do

I think I'll see things get worse in my lifetime. Yeah, we have a pretty big election coming up in a little over a year here, year and a half here. Um so, so I think despair is not helpful right now.

I certainly think that getting getting involved because I do think I mean, we felt like this in the twenty election, but oh my god, the stakes of the twenty twenty four election are in many ways even greater because of all this stuff that's happened since the Biden's election, and so I think mobilizing, I mean, we basically have an electoral fight for the future of our country coming up, and maybe maybe we can talk about this next time, like how do we how do we how do we

flip the things we're talking about into democratic strategy, which I think is going to be the hard part. And I do think the Democrats are really facing a really hard question about really rerunning Biden, who's really old, or or opening up. I mean that should have happened a while ago. It looks like Biden's going to run again. But I do think that mobilizing, mobilizing Democratic voters right

now for these issues. In other words, there's there's a place we can go with this frustration right now which is actually tied to electoral politics, which may not be the case in twenty twenty five, but it's the case right now in twenty twenty three. And so I do have hope that we will mobilize, that people will recognize the stakes. I have just a shy ton of concern about if Biden's going to be able to pull it off. Honestly, right now, I hope he can. He's surprised me at

every level. But yes, he has, and I want people to remember that that he has been. He has been, and I've done it, you know, I did it on this show multiple multiple, multiple times. I underestimated Joe Biden. We continue to underestimate Joe Biden and he continues to opp form. So, yes, is his age a thing, Sure it is. But do I think that he was the man for the job in twenty twenty after I said

that he wasn't even on my fucking lift, Yes, I do. Yeah, no, And and honestly, if it's him, but I just think that I think it's people that cannot be complacent and think that the twenty four election is just going to be a relitigation of the twenty twenty election. There's so many factors that are so exponentially different right now. In

twenty twenty, there was no stop to Steal movement. In twenty twenty, Trump had just gotten on stage with COVID, sweating profusely and shown embodied his mismanagement of the pandemic. So there's so many factors that are going to be different right now. It's a totally different campaign, and I just think people need to realize that even though Biden won in twenty twenty, the fight in twenty twenty four is even more high stakes in a way, but also

a different fight. And so I think that there's a place to go with this despair right now, and I think questions of how to fight back, which is why this show is sitting on a gold mine, as they say on MSNBC advertisements, fighting back against this ludicrous anti woke agenda where anything that happens you just call it woke. But I think there are some strategies that are that need to be formulated now because I think right now there's an avenue to go with despair, which is not

going to be an option if we don't win. Yeah, doctor Jonathan Matzel, it is a pleasure to be back in conversation with you. Friend. We will talk next week and you know, see where we land. Then appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke A f as always power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.