Turning the Tables

of us. But today we decided to turn the tables. We went live from Vanderbilt University where Jonathan teaches a class on COVID and society, and essentially today's lecture was with regard to how COVID has changed our politics and has it changed it forever? And has it changed forever?

And so in this conversation, instead of me asking Jonathan questions, Jonathan asked me questions and turns the table on how I think that media has changed how the public views public health, whether or not we'll ever get back to a community minded space with regard to public health, where we really are our brothers, sisters, our friends, keepers and we care about their well being and so For me, folks, this was a really fun episode to do because I

miss university. There is a war on education right now at K through twelve level, but also at the higher education level, and so there are days when I think to myself, I couldn't imagine going through and getting my degree right now, right Like I remember thinking about you know, political science and framing it in terms of how I want it to be a force for good and be a public servant and helped shape and change the nation. And that was at a time when I thought that

we were on an upswing. So what does it mean to be getting a degree in politics or getting a degree in journalism at this current time? So the opportunity to both speak with and listen to young people for me was a huge treat. So I hope that you all enjoy this. Who I guess it would be a Freaky Friday episode with Jonathan where Jonathan turns the tables and puts on his host hat and I enter into the guest's chair. So coming up next, my conversation with

doctor Jonathan Metzel on COVID and society. It's no secret that the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The Bituation Room podcast hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free Erntini, for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week, The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists to break down the issues in a way that won't just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get The Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Scotify, Stitcher, and

streaming on YouTube and Twitch. All right, welcome to class, everybody. I am delighted to turn the tables today. For the past gosh, how long has it been. Danielle in the pemic. We've been talking every dayn week for the pandemic. So, Danielle is a dear friend of mine and we used to do television together on MSNBC and other stuff like that. Danielle and I were also the only people who were, like,

I think, adequately freaking out before the pandemic happened. And so like everybody else was like, oh, two weeks of canned soup and cash, and Danielle and I would be in the back being like, this ain't two weeks. I can't soup. This is like you know the world is

going to implode or something like that. And so we've been actually doing a TV segment every week over the course of the entire pandemic processing and every week we say, next week, we're going to talk about puppies, or we're going to talk about ponies, or we're going to talk about springtime. Because we're not like dour people. But what we need is for the bummer news to stop happening. But instead what happens is the bummer news keeps coming.

And so I've got a bunch of slides about politics, which maybe' all go into afterwards, but let me just say a few things that I am delighted to welcome to class today my good friend Danielle Moody. Danielle hosts a bunch of different shows. The most important ones by far are wikaf and Democracy, which are both daniel word of those stream everywhere. They stream everywhere. You guys get your podcasts, everywhere you get your podcasts. I love this

on your bio. It says never sorry about shaking things up. We're calling bs when she sees it. Danielle has been an apologetic commentator about America's racism problem. She made waves on election night in twenty sixteen when she called Donald Trump's win White Supremacies lest stand video clips went which went viral and she's the really I mean, how many can you tell us, Danielle really quickly for the audience here, tell us a little bit about your media background before

we get where we get going. Sure, So my background is actually in politics and policy. Um. I worked on Capitol Hill, uh did education policy, was the lead lobbyist for New York City's education lobbying efforts under Mayor Bloomberg transition to education environmental education. And I got into media by way of the marriage equality fight, so in the early two thousands became a national spokesperson for marriage equality.

From there transitioned into doing more policy around LGBTQ issues and recognize seeing that there are two ways to change, you know, to change hearts and minds. One of them is through media and the other is through policy. So that's how I became more active in terms of writing and speaking and creating shows that kind of cut through the bs, which you can only get so much in soundbites on television. And so podcasting and creating content is a way for us to really delve into the conversations

that mainstream media misses wonderful. And as I was just saying, you and I have been speaking every single Tuesday and Wednesday for the past well since really the second week of the pandemic. Yeah, and the class that you're speaking in front of there's a audience of students in front of me, which will go to in a little bit here.

But the theme of this class is COVID and society, and we're kind of asking how the pandemic change the world as we know it, and also how the pandemic is changing the future of the future as you know, what's the trajectory that is being altered or exposed as a result of the pandemic. And so we've done different weeks on science, expertise, race, things like that, and today

we're talking about politics and protests. And I thought, man, I've been talking about this every week with Danielle, and so I thought, let's do let's do this conversation in front of the class and then we'll bring in the class. And so the theme today is how did the pandemic change either politics as we know it, the future of politics, or the future the future of the world in a particular way. Wow. I mean, one, I love the fact that you do this class, and to those are really

great questions. I think that the way in which politics has changed is fundamentally we have to think about the fact that we had never villainized in the way that we've seen public health done so over the last couple of years, where we were always on the same page, like don't we all want to be healthy, don't we

all want to be safe? Don't we all want what's best for our friends, our neighbors, our colleagues, And that fundamentally shifted where you had some people then this is pre vaccine, right, because we've been talking for a long time, Jonathan, Like,

pre vaccine, it was wear a mask. Once we understood what COVID was and how it was playing out in the beginning, it said we were told, wear a mask, it'll keep yourself safe, it'll keep those around you stafe, have six feet of distance, right, wash your hands, And all of a sudden you saw this breakdown with the Republican Party and the far right deciding that by telling people to be in community with one another in order to keep all of us safe, that somehow that was

in violation of their rights and violation of their liberty right. So they wanted the freedom to infect. And so I think that by virtue of this, we lost trust in our institutions like the CDC and the WHO where you know, were they making decisions as the pandemic continue to progress. Were they making decisions that were about our public health or about politics so as not to be called out

by the far right? If they're saying, hey, you need to quarantine for two weeks, well then you have CEOs and shareholders that are concerned that if workers are quarantining every time that they get sick for this long period of time, well then what happens to productivity? What happens to churn? So are we making decisions about capitalism or

are we making them about people's well being? And as time went on, as we would continue in our conversations, I think that we saw that, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag, right, that these decisions are in fact have become politicized, and I think that they will be into the future, which is really detrimental in terms of how we need to operate because I don't think that COVID is going to be our last health pandemic, right, And I don't necessarily think that even with each new

variant that we've seen, that we've shown that we've learned really about what it means to not only care for ourselves, but to care for those around us and the most vulnerable frankly around us. So I do think that it has shifted our politics in a way where, you know, we thought that we could debate climate change, for instance, and science, and that there were two different types of science. And this is the way that we've allowed that same

type of thinking to take over public health. I think that's exactly right, and it ties really nicely into a bunch of stuff we've been talking about in class. Politics, of course, functions on multiple levels. Politics is the politics of public health certainly, and what it means. I mean, I was just thinking the whole idea. When I was in medicool, for example, I learned that public health means it's not so much about saving the drowning person from

the river. It's about making sure they don't fall into the river the first place, which means everybody working together to put up guardrails around the water, teaching people to swim in advance. It takes people kind of working together. It feels like in many ways our country has kind of fallen into the river, and the idea that we could even build guardrails or think about prevention in a way, it just becomes so much more unmatchable, which is ironic, right,

because we've seen what the pandemic can do. But just the idea of public health itself, the idea that people are working together communally to prevent things from happening before they happen, seems awfully fraught right now, would you say, I mean, I think that it's it's terrifying with how fraught it is. Right when we think about thee like, this is a virus that spreads through community, So how can you not be community minded when trying to find

your way to solutions? Right, We had an opportunit unity. I think you and I have discussed this and maybe our opinions differ. We had an opportunity, you know, at the beginning of vaccinations to get everybody vaccinated to kind

of to work to eradicate COVID. We never thought that we would then have twenty five percent of the population that would be like, no, I'm good, right, I think that you're putting a microchip in my arm, right, and not believe doctors who have no agenda, they're not running for office, they don't need to be elected, right, So why wouldn't you believe what doctors and nurses and health practitioners are saying because you've been told that they're out

to get you. And so I don't know how we, as one of guests has said to me recently, how we knit our communities back together where we trust one another right, where we trust that we're in this for the betterment of ourselves and our community at large. And if we can't get on the same page about not wanting to kill our neighbor because we happen to cough on them, or you know, or we refuse to wear a mask, then I don't know what we can get on the same page about. And that's what scares me. Hey,

I'm David Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all the noise and the news. Each week on the gap Fest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree, We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest new

episodes every Thursday. Politics, of course, functions in many different ways. One is about the politics of public health, which just the idea, the idea of public health has been challenged and just think of the irony right were challenged via public health lenked pathogen and the just the concept of public health falls apart, which I guess is terrifying. Maybe it's understandable because this thing has gone on so too long. Maybe who knows, but it does keep happening, and that's

that's certainly going to be something that plays out. And then two other kind of functions of politics I wanted to talk about. One is the politics of the media and the second is the politics of race. And I'll take those in order. I think it would be interesting for the students to also hear what is your sense of just the politics of your job, What is the role of being in the media right now? How does what's happening right now change how you conceptualize like your mission,

or how does it change your daily life? And I say that because we've got a lot of students who are thinking about going into media, and we'll be doing a lot with media in the class. But also because you know, if you if you just think back to like what you and I were doing in the beginning of the pandemic, it was kind of like, let's educate people about about the six feet rule and all that stuff. Like we thought we were educating people and now it's

kind of like we're just chronicling. You know. I don't want to say, do we'd like something there? So can you just talk about kind of what this period has done to how you feel like your job is in a way? Yeah, I mean that's a really good question, And I asked myself, probably what am I doing on a regular basis? I think that when I entered in

when I when I launched woke AF. But WOKAF was launched in twenty sixteen, and it was in reaction to Donald Trump's even being being a candidate, let alone becoming president of the United States. And what I realized at that time when I launched woke AF was that a majority of the country was asleep in the in believing that somebody like him couldn't become president of the United States. Um, somebody who had you know, came with a heavy amount of misogyny and racism um and said all of these

things that were totally outside of the political norm. So when the pandemic happens, and he's still president of the United States at this time, and we're learning in real time what he knew, what he didn't know, the fact that he knew that it was contagious and not just like the flu, and didn't share it with the public because he wanted to use it as a political tool

and weaponize it. I went from thinking about exactly what you had said, thinking about our role as providing information to people to keep them safe, but safety shifted not just about keeping them safe from this virus, but keeping them safe from the larger cancer of misinformation. Right that you were being misguided purposefully. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't unfortunate. It was a strategy. And so I feel like I went you know, the role that I have

has always been to be an alarm clock. Right, Like, you know, everyone is busy in this country. Everyone has multiple jobs, kids, you know, livelihood, homes, you know, things going on. But those all of those aspects of life and livelihood go away if you don't have any freedom. And you know, I don't know how many of your students, you know, have traveled and have traveled into, you know, other countries or from other countries with various forms of

government structure. But I have traveled to places with authoritarianism, and I've traveled to places you know, um that have climbed their way out of fascism, but still have you know, some remnants of that. Um. There is a there is a listlessness that the people have. There is a lack of hope. There's a lack of hopefulness because what are

you being hopeful for? And so I find my job now not just to be an alarm, but to be in a siren an alarm, all the red flags, screaming and waving my hands that you know, don't think that what you're seeing can't happen in the United States, because it is happening, and it's happening every day, and it's happening a lot rapid, a lot more rapid then then

we thought that it would. I mean, it's interesting you mentioned misinformation and disinformation because I remember we did a show, you know, in the first month of the pandemic where we were just explaining to people, Yeah, what is misinformation? And everybody was like, well, that happens in Russia. But I would I would spot that in a second hair

like nobody believed it was happening to them. But it turns out the way it happens is it's a narrative that makes sense to you, and then it becomes your form of common sense in a way. I want to say to you know, to point out something recently that just happened. If if folks are paying attention to a lot of the debates that are happenings as we make

the march to midterms. Representative Marjory Taylor Green out of Georgia was in her debate with her opponent and one of the things that she said was that, um, Democrats are trying to kill us. You want to kill us. That's what she said to her political opponent. And then she said why do you why do you care? Well, you know, why are you for being a predator and and and and grooming children? She said all of these things. No,

the debate moderator didn't stop her. What happened then is that it was picked up in all of these news outlets and it's normalized because it's oh it's just Marjorie Taylor Green saying more of what she has said, and I'm like, but there's no disruption. There's no disruption of the lies, the dangerous lies that are coming out of her mouth, and you don't know who or where they're landing.

So it's it's it isn't you know? It isn't just like, oh, well, those people over there, you know, they're you know, they're they're they're crazy. It's like, no, they've become the mainstream. And when crazy is mainstreamed, people become dehumanized, and then the actions that you decide to take against the people can be justified. And you need not look any further than justifications for all types of oppression, violence, and torture that have happened in this country and around the world.

I think that's really really well said. We have just in a couple of minutes before we go to the gap to the audiences. So if you have a question, if you have a question, just think about coming up to the microphone. If anybody wants to ask about politics or media or things like that, So just go ahead

and line up right here at the microphone. I'm gonna ask one more question now, you mentioned before about about traveling outside the United States, and I'm kind of laughing looking at our room because we have students from pretty much all over the world, all over the country, many different ideological backgrounds, political backgrounds, and what's nice is we come together here to address that. And so there I'll

ask you about race after the students. But could you just say a word a word about just what what could you say to students right now, like students who for example, might be wanting to go into the media or might be wanting to go into the politics. What's what's you know, what's the what's the message to this audience of the kind of the leaders of tomorrow who

are getting going to get us out of this? You know what I would say is if you're going into media, I think that what is really interesting is that media has become in a lot of ways democratized. If you know how to utilize different social platforms, so you don't need to necessarily be a part of a traditional news outlet um that may have a newsroom that is not reflective of who you are. Are not interested in diverse

and I mean diverse in all senses of diverse. What diversifies our perspective, um of the world around us, of our of our body politic and so what what's your I would say to really think about what is your point of view? You know, what do you want to offer that is different? Um, what do you think is missing? And then if you figure that out, then you're able to actually create a point of view and create content

around that that will bring people in. But you kind of have to figure out what kind of journalists do you want to be? And don't fall into the trap of neutrality, because I think that in the current climate that we're in, neutrality is actually a lie. It is a code to just accept the status quo. Um, I don't And I also don't refer to myself as a journalist. I went to school for politics. I just happened to run my mouth really well, you know, but I hadn't

even go to school for media. So don't even think that if you didn't, if you're not getting you know, one of your you know, degrees in media or journalism, then that means that you can't enter into the field. I am sitting you know, evidence to the contrary. Wonderful, All right, well, this is this has been really fun. This is the one time a year were like, I'm the host and you're the guest. Yes, I love it. Usually you're interviewing me and I'm like, damn, her job's

harder than it looks. So anyway, all right, thank you, thank you, thank you, Danielle, thank you so much for joining us, and we will talk next week at this very same time earlier. Thank you, thank you so much. That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke app as always, power to the people and to all the people, power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.