The Problem With Joe Rogan...and Cancel Culture

given her comments about the Holocaust. Now, I really am having a lot of issues with this desire to silence people and instead of using comments as a teachable moment and putting people like Whoopee Goldberg in the same category as a Marjorie Taylor Green or Joe Rogan and other people on the far radical right who are anti Semites, who are racists, who are the tools of white supremacy. And the problem that I have is in this country we are at a critical juncture right which you all know.

The desire to ban books, band discussion, band curriculum, to suppress votes, to shut women up, to take away their ability to choose. All of these things that are happening are connected. And the problem that I have is that what the right wing consistently does is that they create these issues. There's much ado about nothing. They use black people, people of color, people from multiple marginalized groups as their

bad ram, which is the case with Whoopee Goldberg. Did Whoopie Goldberg misspeak when she said that the Holocaust was not about race? Yes? Do most people believe that the Holocaust was more so about faith in religion than it was about race. Yes, because that's actually what we're taught, right. We don't have a very broad understanding of race outside of the context of American racism, which is white folks over here, black people and then the group of POC right,

the POC blob that we put over there. And so there was an opportunity and continues to be an opportunity not to suspend Whoopee Goldberg as if she had said something or spreading lies or misinformation in a vindictive, manipulative, cruel and intentional way, as opposed to let me, as you know, the executive producer of The View or the network of ABC, model for America, how we have difficult conversations, how we don't see each other as the enemy or as the villain, but instead can see this as an

opportunity to expand conversations about anti Semitism, about the about the construct of race, right, and how we how it is used, how it is used as a tool for a white supremacists to be able to pit, marginalize and oppress groups against each other while they reign supreme right like.

And so when we are seeing right now these what is happening in Virginia with junkins Virginia and the desire to ban curriculum it under the guise of parental control, but it is what is it at its core, the ability to erase and whitewash history and present white people the Christian faith in a particular light while ignoring, demeaning, or just fully invisibilizing everyone else who had a part in the American story right, in creating the American narrative. Right,

White people don't own that. Right, Christian people don't own that. And so here we have this situation that has been in my humble opinion, and I will use my co host on democracy is washahat Ali, which if you're not listening to Democracy Ish, which comes out today on all

of the podcast platforms, you should. It's a weekly conversation that I have with the brilliant washahat Ali, And he said, you know what, white supremacy wants is for those of us that are melanated, those of us that pray different, love different, look different, of these things, to be the

sidekicks in our own story. Right, that we have no backstory, We have no real connection to the fabric of America, right, other than being there for white people's entertainment, right, or to be their scapegoat, or to be a combination of the two. And so I think that this cancelation is not something, let's be honest, that probably a majority of

people from the Jewish faith wanted, right. It was an overcorrection by ABC based on the hysteria that was created by the radical right as a way to pit I believe black people and Jewish people who have had a tenuous historical over relationship against one another, and get this, guess who gets to win? The white supremacists, right, because while we are busy attacking each other, they're reigning supreme.

You know. The other thing that has come up is this conversation around well, look at Joe Rogan and how come he's not canceled blah blah, Because the radical right does not give a fuck, right, they don't care if their people are anti Semitic. They don't care if the people are. As a matter of fact, it bodes better for them with their red bass and their racist bass

if they hold up these people as martyrs. Like they're looking at Joe Rogan, the one hundred million dollar podcast man and saying, oh, they're trying to cancel and silence him. He has tens of millions of listeners who are listening to the bullshit lies that he is spreading about a global health pandemic. He is actually a day danger to

society at this critical juncture. Right, And yet you have Whoopee Goldberg being placed in the same bushel as these people that are actively trying to mislead people, to misguide them, right, that are actively or rating such horrific stereotypes, right, that are leading to the rise in anti semitism and hate crimes across the board. And so it's like, why can't we have these conversations. Why can't we walk and choo

gum at the same time. Why is having a misstep right, not an opportunity not to punish people, but to teach them. And how are we if we're not truly understanding who our allies are and who the villains are then, how are we fighting this war that the radical right is waging against common sense, against truth, against facts right, and against everyone who doesn't subscribe to their scarcity white supremacist,

violent ideology. I'm so confused, folks. And I'm just like, and by confused, I mean just pissed off, like I'm tired of the bullshit. I really am. I find it exhausting. And when I saw Whoopi Goldberg's name trending, I was just like, oh my god. She couldn't possibly have said

something like horrific, right, could she? After all of these years, all of this knowing, all of this learning, and when I read it and heard it, and again, I am not part of the aggrieved community, but I can say, as an educator, right that there is an opportunity to model conversation right for the purpose of expansiveness and to really hone our critical thinking skills as opposed to just erasing conversation from the jump set right. Because here's what happened.

You have a school district in Tennessee which is looking to erase the Holocaust from history right from their curriculum. What kind of adverse effect is that going to have? For these generations of students that will not learn about this atrocious period in our history. The not knowing right, the purposeful under education and mis education, is going to have long term effects on our country. And I don't just mean it in the oh, well, we won't know

about each other. I'm talking about it to our workforce, to our ability to be globally competitive. Right. What happens when you take away critical thinking, when you don't teach it, when you don't teach young people to question, and now you hold up others as an example as to why you even can't have missteps or ask questions, And then

what does that do? It allows people to have false ideology and false beliefs, right, that are based on stereotypes, and just keep them quiet talking to other people that think like them, as opposed to exposing them to a different way to think, to an expansive philosophy, to a deeper understanding of what race actually is and the construct and how it has been used as a political tool, right, and a violent tool. I just I'm so sick and

tired of this country. And you know, one of the reasons why I had I went into the classroom was for this reason. How are we building up a global citizen tury? How are we expanding and strengthening the minds of tomorrow to become the leaders and the innovators and the changemakers right like and the representatives? What does what does our country look like? With all of this whitewashing

and bubblegum education. It's not going to bode well. Coming up next, folks, I get into conversation with columnists at The Grio, returning guests Michael Harriet to talk about his article about Joe Rogan and white boys right and what it is that they're able to get away with and the conversations that they have that the rest of us do not, and whether or not right we should be looking to eradicate these people as opposed to figuring out how to understand them if there is an understanding to

be had. It's an interesting conversation that we that Michael and I get into, and I'll be excited to hear what you all think, So please do let me know in the comment section, or tweet me out or hit me up on Instagram and tell me what you think of the conversation. And you can check out Michael's writing at the Grio, The Grio dot com, g Riio dot com friends, I am very happy to welcome back to wok F Michael Harriet, who is a columnist at The Grio and wrote a piece on January twenty first entitled

the Problem with the Joe Rogan and White Boys. Michael, welcome back, and your article hit a lot of nerves with a lot of folks and spoke a lot of truth. Why is Joe Rogan such a problem? Like? What? Why? Other than the fact that he is, you know, thee hundred million dollar man for Spotify, he is considered one of the most consequential, if not the most consequential podcaster on the globe. Um and yet he spreads so much,

so much misinformation? What is What is your major gripe with him and and his followers, who I don't even think are as bright as he is. Okay, Well, first of all, I wouldn't say that I had a gripe. Uh no, I no, no, no, I say I say that I have a gripe with Joe Rogan. That's why.

But I won't put where I do not not. You go ahead, well, I'll say that that there is a problem with Joe Rogan and I know it seems like, you know, people on the Internet will say, well, that's just clear bait or that's just you know, somebody trying to be hyperbolic. But I really feel like most of the problem with Joe Rogan is that he is a white dude. Right. So, so when like, first of all, let me preface it was said, like, I've listened to hundreds,

literally hundreds of episodes of Joe Rogan. If you know, I'm not a Spotify subscriber. If I was a Spotify subscriber, I would probably still be listening to Joe Rogan because, you know, as someone who writes about right wing issues and racism, I don't think you could write about anything if you don't carefully examine and listen to the other side without an open mind. But that's not why I just I just found him interesting. But even when he added people who I didn't agree with on his part,

guess I will still listening to. And ultimately, what I think Joe Rogan is is he's a very curious person, right And his podcast is him sitting down with you know, someone who he finds interesting and talking to him for like three hours. Right, So a lot of times. Many of the people who he finds interesting are people who are toxic, right. And you know, when you think about Joe Rogan, he is a UFC commentator. If you know his backstory, you know he was into Tae Kwon Doe

since he was you know, like a little kiddy. Is a pretty liberal person if you you know, listen to him a lot. But I think him and a lot of people in his audience. You know, if you look at the demographics of his audience, and it is predominantly white, predominantly young white males, and a lot of those people when they have that you know, that affinity for being edgy, right, Um, he is a comedian who's known for being edgy, being

you know, aggressive. A lot of those people are susceptible to white supremacist is the same group that like the what we used to call the right recruits from, like white supremacists, that's who they recruit because they have this danger, uh, this this edginess to them that they court danger. You know.

There there's a friend of mine who is a poet who talks about like black people don't need to ski down the side of a volcano because we could just drive our car pass the police, right, right, right, but right, And it sounds like a joke, but in a sense like that's the same kind of of danger that they lack in their lives that they coat. They it gets

their heart pumping, you know. And so when you listen to Joe Rogan, he will invite these people on who have ideas like uh, you know, like uh Graham Hancock, who is so called Egyptologists who believes that the Pyramids are over five thousand years old. He thinks they're they're accurate data is twelve thousand years old. Adds to a

lot of archaeologists, and they're you know people. He will have people on who are just comedians, some of them are just as friends, and some of them are people who experiment with you know, I tried ayahuasca because of Joe Rogan after listening to Joe Rogan, right, and so so it's a bunch of disparate interesting stuff. But when he gets to talking about race, he really doesn't know what he talked he's talking about, and again it's because

he is a white dude. Right, So you can play along or tamper with these toxic ideas and examine them in the public view while millions, tens of millions of people are listening. Because if you say something wrong, it don't affect you, right, right, Like, It's just like to him, you know, racism is no different than a pyramid in Egypt, Right, it is okay, it's something that interests him, right, and he has a lot of different interests. Well, when you

listen to him talk about race. One of the reasons that I had to stop listening to him is because not knowing what he talks about, it perpetuates this idea to his listeners because just like you know, one of the reasons people are now holding him accountable is because of COVID. So we will have just regular people on who kind of sound smart talking about COVID, and it'll be misinformation or disinformation. Well, you know, there are hundreds of scientists out here now who are talking about COVID,

who are giving out the right information. But his listeners might not necessarily hear somebody talk that correctly about race. Right, So when he says, for instance, and this is the exact reason I stopped listenings, I had to turn them off. One day, as he was talking about the lawsuit at Harvard where Asian students sued Harvard for discrimination, and he said that, you know, it's racism, and I was screaming

at the radio, no, like you don't understand what racism is. Like, what they're arguing is that the system that Harvard has in place, they adhere to that system, but they it's not benefiting them like it benefits white people. But the truth is, right, a private institution can structure its submissions

policy right. And Joe Rogan would know that though, right, Joe Rogan would know that when you are considering admitting someone to college, and because these Asian students, you know, they you know, they alleged that they are being kept out of Harvard um to admit like affirmative action, black people,

hisspatic people. And I want to show them that. You know, when you talk about who letting the best students in, right, you can't calculate that by SAT scores, right, because the study show, like there's a mountain of data that shows that the people who earned the most money score the best on the SATs. It doesn't really have anything to do with how much you know. In fact, students with high incomes and whose parents are college graduates tend to score the most. It's it's more of a marker of

how much your parents earned than work. Yeah, it's more of class, right of class, and and and access. And Asian Americans are the highest earners in America, not excluding white people. They earn more on average than white people. And the fact is that the most American children, Black children,

attend schools that are underfunded, most of them. It's like sixty six percent of Black children attending majority black schools, and majority of black schools are underfunded, are underfunded about about two thousand and six and two thousand, two hundred

and sixty six dollars per student. So you can't discount that when you're talking about the best students, right, Right, these schools, Black schools generally don't have the resources to have, for instance, ap biology program or at ap us history program. So you're judging them on a sliding scale, right where it is really about money. And we know that the SAT doesn't prett predict success in college, right, it just

predicts the success for the first year. Right, So you're you're when you're talking about racism, and this is a good example, you're not you don't know what you're talking about.

You haven't considered all of the factors, because you've got to consider this, right, is if a student from a majority black, underfunded school gets a thirteen twenty on the SAT and an Asian American student gets a fourteen hundred on the SAT while attending the best school, the best having them being able to afford the best test prep, then who is the better student, right, the one that had most to overcome and in order to get in order to get even remotely close to the score that

you got easily, right. And it's just like your breakdown of that is so important because when we have these like arbitrary fifty thousand foot conversations, particularly around college entrance, all of those other factors are not taken into consideration when we're talking about being quote unquote well rounded, right, Like,

what is what does that actually mean? So to me, yes, that student, the black student at the underfunded school that managed to get a thirteen twenty when statistically that was going to be like a moonshot, should be the one that's lavished with all of the things. Because if you were given even half of what the Asian student had or the white student had, then that shows me that you would be able to leap over them by leaps

and bounds. Right If if you were watching an Olympic race, and you know, the white kid won and the black kid was like point zero two seconds behind them, but then at the end of the race, after the finish line, you realize that the black kid had waited fast on his back, then you could all you could say that

the white kid won, but he wasn't the fastest runner. Now, if you were trying to choose the fastest runner versus the person who got to the finish line first, those are two different things, right, And then you know there are so many more things, Like you can't talk about education and a silo, right because you have to also consider this even if you're not talking about private schools like how like Harvard, when you talking about public institutions, Well, Alabama,

for instance, I attended college at Auburn University, of the largest public institution in Auburn, it's four percent black, right, So Alabama it's twenty seven percent black. So what that means is you're taking all of those black people's tax money and giving it to white kids. Right. And you're not just doing that in the college, but because you

do that on the the K through twelve level. You can say, oh, man, we just want the best students when we get to college, because you gave all of the money to the white kids, right, and you and you have to consider those things, and you have to there's like too many factors to consider to just call just to reduce it down to a simple idea a racism.

Joe Rogan doesn't know these things. But if you don't include those things, all of the people listening will say, man, they're just letting black kids in because they are black. They don't get they don't achieve as much as the white students. And there is really that perception. And the reason that perception exists is because people they've heard that

so many times. And then you don't even consider the fact that, aside from the educational aspects of it, right, and the achievement aspects of it, right, there's the studies that show that the people who get in to Harvard and Ivy League schools to the biggest loopoles or what they call a LDCs. Right. So there's athletic scholarships, legacy students, children of faculty and staff, and what they call a dean's exception. Right, People, the dean those that have a

lot of money. Right, those people are disproportionately white. And I know you're thinking, well, you know, athleticships, but when you think about athletic scholarships, people don't realize that you're not really talking about black. White kids get most of the athletic scholarships. You got football, basketball, and that's it. The tennant scholarships, the golf scholarships, the baseball scholarships, the gymnastics scholarships, the soccer team scholarship, all of those are

going to the white kids. Defensive scholarships at schools like Harvard, those are going to the white kids. So the people who are really displacing the Asian American students are the rich white kids, right, who already have the resources. And so talking about this specific topic in a silo, which Joe Rogan would do, he doesn't understand and I and that's the point of that conversation is when you compare it to COVID, right, he doesn't. He doesn't know what

he's talking about. With COVID. Joe Rogan's was not a doctor. So when you invite somebody on to have this conversation with Joe Rogan about OVID and they also are not a doctor, and they also have this point. But the listeners hear a smart person using big birds to talk about this this topic that they've thought a lot about, then they assume, oh, I heard it, I learned it from Joe Rogan. Right, So is it is it, Michael, that all of the people, the doctors, the medical professionals.

I'm just just on this point. Nobody asked for Joe Rogan to be removed from Spotify, right, because that that is like a huge misnomer. What they asked for was a disclaimer before and after the program to essentially highlight the fact that much in the same way that I've been calling for, you know, the FCC to do with Fox News, this is for your entertainment, right, This is not for your education, This is not for your betterment.

And I wonder if, like, is this is this the point point to where we are and why he is different than let's say, A Howard Stern was thirty years before him, right, that like it, it was very evident that A Howard was for entertainment, that did the shock jock thing, that did all of these things. But he wasn't out there sitting down casually having coffee with the leaders of the Proud Boys. He wasn't sitting down and

talking about in vectorm ingesting horse medication. He wasn't talking in the midst of a pandemic telling people not to actively pursue a vaccination that would keep them well. And so is it the fact that we don't we can't remove every Joe Rogan from the universe, but that we should have a disclaimer, and that would make it better.

I think a disclaimer would help, But again, Joe Rogan's lists, I don't know how mudget would help, because Joe Rogan's list really believe that he is quote unquote addressing something that you won't hear on the mainstream news or from the mainstream media, or that the mainstream media is keeping away from you, right Like, just like they believe that the you know, the academic world is keeping from you. They won't tell you how old the pyramids really are, right,

They won't tell you that mushrooms won't hurt you. They won't tell you that weed is not an addictive drug. Right. So, if you hear the stuff about the pyramids, and you hear the stuff about mushrooms, and you hit the stuff about drugs, and it is for Joe Rogan's intellectual curiosity. And then the next program is about COVID or the next program is about black people. Then it seems as if that he is exploring a topic that has been

purposely hidden from you. And I don't know how much a disclaimer would help, because they would believe they would his listeners would automatically say, yeah, that's what they made him do. So you because they're censoring him, yeah right, not even censoring, like because they don't want you to know the real truth, right, They want to make you believe that he's just exploring these topics because but it's

not real, so they put that disclaimer. But we know it's real, right, I just I mean, then what are we doing? Do you know what I'm saying? Like if if, if you can't you can no longer move people out of their very narrowed thinking, because they have found a voice and a hero in this man, right, and they identify with him, and they feel community and connected with him. And we're out here trying to fight against the global health pandemic, try to fight against the rise of white supremacy.

And you have no friend or no favor in this person, then what are we to do? Like because if it if it isn't about the disclaimers and the calling for more truthful information or to diversify your guest lists or what have you, and there's still this desire to get you know, to somehow bring these people out of this like cultish like thinking, and that's not going to happen, then what like what are we doing? What do you think is there is there a solution or is it

just just to let these people very much go with God? Well? Yeah, I think, you know, for I think there's always been a Joe Rogan in American history right or throughout history, whether it is you know, people who believe in white Jesus, or people who believe that if you allow black kids to go to school with white kids that they'll pass along diseases, or they'll rap the little white girls, or they hold the kids back right there, They're always been,

They've always been these people who uh just just spread misinformation to appeal to a large white audience. Right, whether it's Billy Graham or Russian Limbaugh or you know, there's a million names we can we can sit right, Um, So I don't know. I think it's on us to realize, Oh, there's always gonna be a Joe Rogan, right. Um, I don't know if you know, if it's if we can sense to him because because the internet exists, right, like he was Spotify gave him all that money, but he

was doing this long before Spotify even existed. He was, you know, one of the original three or four podcasts, right, So, I don't I don't even know. Sometimes there are sometimes times there are no answers, right, yeah, problems right, Like, I don't know if there is an answer to a lot of the problems that we face today. I think what people can do is exactly what you're doing talking about them. Let people know that, oh, you know he's crazy, right or you know right or some of the stuff there.

He said he has no idea what he's talking about. But I don't think that there is a solution where we are going to stop Joe Rogan from reaching people, or to bake the people who believe Joe Rogan realize that they need to do some because I mean, that's me, I'm going to do my own research. Is the reason we are even here, right, So, So I don't know if there is a clean solution to it. I just think we just got to talk about it, and somebody's

got to say it, you know. I think that, you know, Michael, that is so very true and very real, and I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I'm just like, yeah, you know, maybe there isn't the clean solution, a solution, the right solution to a lot of the things that we are facing. And so then the question is where does that leave us? Does it just leave us in conversation, does it leave people wanting to stick their heads in the sand and just forget about it because there is no solution, and

so whatever happens will happen. Or do we figure out in conversation with one another how to mitigate, you know, the pain, the cruelty, the frustration, the sadness that we're

faced with on a day to day basis. I think a part of it is, like I am have been thinking about writing this piece for a long time about you know, even before this Joe Rogan thing rose up about you know, voter suppression and police brutality, the and with the idea of what if this is just who America is, right, like they've always suppressed black voters, police

in America have always disproportionately killed black people. Um, you know, there's always been racism and white supremacy in America, and maybe this is who America is like. And instead of saying, man, I wish I could figure out a way for me to stop it from raining outside, maybe we just gotta star every time we got to go outside. We just

gotta have an umbreast. Right, So we just got to know that when we go outside, it's probably going to rain, right, And you know, there's going they're going to be racist

out there. They're going to be there's going to be misinformation out there about every disease, right, Like you I can remember remember when people thought only gay people got aged, right, And we know that's not true now, right, But there are still a lot of people who believe that, like, if you got age, you must have been you know, messed up. And so sometimes it's necessary to put the right information out there and the counter it. But you do that on the margins knowing that, like, we will

never stop people from being racist. I don't believe that we will ever stop white people from being racist in America. I don't think we'll ever stop because it's it's too much of an advantage, right, Like, we know that part of the reason why Republicans do the things that they do, it's not because they believe black people are inherently lesser

than white people. That's part of it, But part of it is it's just one of political advantage, and it's expedient to disenfrestize black people because we vote for the opposite part. Right. So I don't even know if there's a solution except for us to recognize that, oh, this

is who America is. Right, Like, if you got a cousin who steals out of your pocket book every time they come to your house, right, you can keep trying to find a solution to say, oh, man, I'm gonna watch you, or but maybe you should just hide your purpose, right right, Oh, I know you're you're right, You're right. Maybe yeah, yeah, you can't watch them all the time. You can't necessarily always try and change behavior. You can't always try and recourse people because we have over centuries,

over so many goddamn years. Yeah, maybe you just carry an umbrella and hide your purse. Like maybe that is because you know I say that, you say that, and you know it sounds funny, But it's so like otherwise I feel crazy. Right, Otherwise it's the craziness of trying to write an impossible thing to write, right, do you know like you would need it? You need a time machine? Right?

And not only that, right, but it is trying to fight crazy with logic, right, Like you can't talk down somebody who believes that, like black people are inferior to them because they were born their ancestors were born or a certain part of the planet. Right, let them go with God. Right, Because if you believe, for instance, that black people were forbidden from there were whole legislatures that had to write laws that stopped black people from learning

how to read. And then after slavery, black people built all of these institutions to educate them themselves. And then black people sent their children to be spent on by white people to get an equal education. So if you believe that black people don't value education, for instance, there is no way that I can talk you down out of that illogical, stupid thing that you believe. Right, There's

no way to fight that kind of elligic. So what the only thing there is to do is to, like I said, put on a raincoat, hide your prose because you know that those people are out there, they're going to steal the money out of your pocket book. Michael Harriet, let me tell you something. The gems that huge drop on a regular basis. I'm like, wow, yeah, put on a raincoat. I really yeah. It's like it's it's it's

a weight lifted off it really, it really is. I think that we really need to think about it and think about what we're trying to do, what we're doing, what we're in conversation for right, and do what what can be done and and leave the rest. I genuinely appreciate you your writing and the time that you take um to join woke FU. Please tell folks where they can find you and where they can read more about all of these things and really sit with the questions

that we discuss today. I write for the Grio. I'm a columnist at the Grio. I also write a five monthly column for the Guardian, and you can find me on all social media at Michael Harriot as H E L H A R r IoT to RS one. T appreciate you, thank you so much, and I hope that you will join us again. Of course, that is it for me today. Friends, here on Woke f As all ways, power to the people and to all the people power, Get woke and stay woke as fuck.