Good morning, Peepsen, and welcome to ook F Daily with Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, it is a bittersweet that wok F is winding down. I'm going to dedicate a solo show that you will listen to over the holidays on my reflections over the last seven years of helming this show and speaking and
creating an audience with all of you. But I couldn't have done this show without the consistency of the presence of doctor Jonathan Metzel, who for four years has shown up each and every week to engage in conversation with me, with all of us, and just to think about, you know, just think about it for a moment, what we've been through as a country over the last four years, what you've been through personally over the last four years. It's
wild to kind of wrap your mind around. And I have found such solace and hopefulness in the grounding conversations that I've been able to have with Jonathan over the
last several years. And I think that his insight has been invaluable and I have appreciated it so very much, And it is just I can't believe that this is our last interview on WOKF and so today we just take some time to we're reflect on what has transpired over the last four years, what we've learned and you know, and give thoughts to how we move in twenty twenty five. So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, this last conversation on WOKF with our friend, our in house doctor,
doctor Jonathan Metzel. Uh So, folks, I am this is this is so crazy. Uh For four years, for four years, uh doctor, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl has been in conversation on WOKF daily and today is our final interview on WOKF. Which is so wild, Jonathan, it's wiping tears from his eyes. Is so wild to think about the hours Jonathan, that you and I have spent
together on air. I first off just want to thank you for all of your time, for all of your analysis over the years, which has just been like priceless. But I guess I want to start off with you know, some of your reflections over over time together.
Well, I mean, think about what's happened to like our lives, our everything, like you know, so so much has happened just in the world globally and personally, and so it's great to have a consistent friendship above all else that kind of sees you through all of these ups and downs about elections and global shit and relationships and breakups
and everything else. Like we've become really good friends. This love I love that part, and so that part has been so meaningful, and there are days where we have it's funny to think about, like when we first started doing this, Yeah, we would spend quite a bit of time working on the you know before like what's the agenda and where the points that we're to get hit. And then about halfway through we realized, like, okay, just turn on the damn camera.
We'll figure it out the microphone and we'll figure it out.
Because we just figured out that like we had, we had just gotten this like lovely I think resonance. So for me, that's that beside any like one thing. I mean, we've seen ups and downs. Most of America I think now realizes we warned them pretty much about every single thing that was going to happen. We predicted a lot
of shit here that I ended up happening. And uh, but but but but even beyond that, we just created such a nice vibe, I think, And so I'm the most grateful for the fact that we got so comfortable that we would just be like, hey, hey, okay, turn on look on the bikephone, you know that kind of thing.
Yeah, because I think that, you know, over the last several years, like it is wild, honestly to think about what we've been through as a country, but also what we've been through personally in our personal lives, like you bring up. But at some point we just realized, well, we're reading and watching the same things, so let's just get on the air and talk about them and talk about them in a way that can be easily digestible
for people. And I kind of want to take us back to COVID, which is, you know where we started, where we where we started being in conversation around that time, and just kind of what did you what do you feel like you learned, you know, back way back in twenty twenty, you know, being on air every week, Like, what did you What could you say that you took away from COVID?
I would say three things. So we started during COVID, and number one was just that we were in an information vacuum, and so it was a scramble every week just to get the most updated information even though nobody knew, but we were, we were ahead of It's just funny how it was a real eye opener for how information travels. You know, I have my networks of experts, you have your networks, but we were often ahead of the game of a medical journal that had to wait a year
to publish things. But you know that kind of thing. And so there was so much of a we're in a really almost a kind of libertarian moment, you know, about how information's read, and so the power of this kind of media I thought was really powerful, both in terms of the information we were giving people, but also like just what we were learning and how quickly we
were getting it out out there. I mean, the risk is you have to be really careful not to tell people to like drink draino or the other shit that Trump was saying, but or lightsol or whatever it was. But but it's just you know, I think that it was certainly a part of like that here's here's how we're getting information out So that to me, that was it is we would kind of touch base every week and figure out what are you learning? Because nobody knew. It was almost like the information underground.
Yeah, And I feel like we were also able to just be you know, honest with the audience about our own fears about what was happening, right, because while we were busy being on air trying to convey information, as we were receiving that information and trying to process it and then relay it out to the audience, there was also like just a lot of shit of dealing with
the fact that it could this be it? Right, Like, we're in the middle of this health pandemic and you know, we had no idea how long it was going to last. And you know, we're not leaving our homes where you know, we're watching cardboard, We're doing all of these things and and yet still trying to maintain some normalcy by being
in conversation. And I think that you know, and I know that a lot of people have been super grateful for you in being able to keep them same and keep them kind of gathered in themselves as we were going through because you were, you know, they're the trusted doctor that they could talk to, you know, listen to every week and feel like there was some connection to normalcy in that way well.
And I think another part of this is just that that, you know, we were building community in a particular way, we were building we were building community because we didn't all know. So it was also about support, and you know, we thought it was the end, but now it turns out this is the end now, So we're just we were just a little bit early.
We were just a little bit early. And you know, and during that time of twenty twenty when we got on air, obviously you mentioned Donald Trump and Donald Trump being president, you also are our resident you know, gun expert, right, and the gun violence that visited this country over the last I mean, I don't even know, do you keep like, do you know how many horrific you know, acts of mass shootings and gun violence that has happened that at least you know, over the last several years.
Well, I mean, I mean, yeah, one every day, honestly. But the other part is just the other part is just we kind of talked so much on the show about the bigger implications of gun politics, like, for me, the issue of Elon Musk starting to talk about the Second Amendment when he very clearly did not give two shits about it. But it was about like power, anti democracy,
bigger issues that tied in. So guns were also, as we talked about in the book launch, and all these things just so clearly tied into much bigger issues having to do with governance and judiciary and things like that. So I mean, I just I can remember nine thousand shows we did about mass shootings and also many more shows we did about how the gun issue was being tied to the judiciary and to judges and all these other kind of factors that we talked about a lot.
How do you think that people have come to understand the epidemic, the pandemic, whatever it is that you want to call it, of gun violence in this country now versus when we first started.
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting, like I gave the keynote or one of the keynotes at the Public Health Gun Violence Association meeting last week with two big time gun scholars who were who were people who I never would have thought I was on the same side about like in the beginning of the whole thing, like I was critical, I was you know, they thought, oh my god, this guy's coming after us or something like that.
And so part of the story was I think there's been a coming together, like the fact that I was able to give a keynote of this thing and we had this thing and they were on my panel and they said, you know, we agree, we need a bigger political strategy. So I think people are starting to realize that that I think, I think the arguments, I think the argument's coming Doe. But you know, so now it's good. We'll kind of go from there.
Yeah, I just you know, look, we're coming off of the school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. I don't know how many shootings that we've had this year, but I would assume that it is, you know, in the hundreds. And you know, I wonder because your your book, you know, came out this year, what we've become. You've gone around the country speaking to people about reframing our argument. How do you think that has fallen on people? And do you see what what does the movement look like moving forward?
Knowing that Donald Trump is weeks away from taking office, I hope.
We get there, honestly. I mean, that's my biggest help is that we get there. Because yelling about background checks, which we do after every shooting as an impulse, which is important, but it's just not going to get us to where we need to be. We need, we need to come prepared with understanding how to win elections and then how to seat judges. And I think, you know, as much as I respect the work that stuff like background checks do, it's it's just it's not it's not
the answer to the threat we're facing right now. Background Checks are point of sale gun checks, so when you buy a gun, you go through a background check. Thirty five hundred million guns out there, so you could stop selling guns tomorrow, which is never going to happen, and it still wouldn't really matter. And so you know, we need a more holistic, top to bottom strategy. And I do worry I see a lot of people making the mistake of thinking, if we just shout louder next time,
it'll get us there. But I really hope that's not where we come to. I think we need to be much more unified and strategic about this issue. But this issue is such a metaphor for so many other issues.
What do you think is what is most concerning you about this incoming Trump two point zero administration.
We talked about this, I think last week, but that idea that basically the opposite of to be in the political opposition. People are just really tired and they feel like the system's not working for them, and they feel like it's overwhelming, and it it doesn't matter who you vote for. Elon Musk can overturn your entire economy with two hours of tweeting, And so it feels hopeless and people start to check out. And I know from having studied other places that kind of go down the path
that we are potentially going down. It's when people start to become exhausted, they become complacent. But the other issue is the old methods of protests and resistance are not going to work. I mean, doing a women's march right now is not going to work. You know, it's it's it's we need a new strategy that is a much
more strategic strategy that involves more money, more people. And also, I mean, if we're serious about speaking, for example, to the interests of working class people, we can't just shout louder about things that they already know about. We actually need a new plate. And so you know, something's going to emerge. I hope something. I hope something is going to emerge, and I hope it's I hope it's a new thing that is more on the ground and less.
You know, we won the social media a wars for a while there, but we didn't win the convince people that we have their best heart passengers in my mind thing, So I think we're going to need a new playbook, and I think that's what's emerging right now.
Are there any opportunities that you see inside of the obstacles in front of us in this incoming administration?
Yeah, people realize we're on the same side, and you know who knows, you know who who knows? I mean again, like when to be honest, when Trump won, I thought, well, you know, I got to live with this for the next four years. I hope he does a good job. I really do. Like it's not like I want him to fail for four years and everything to fall apart so that I can win some more argument. I want
the economy to do well. And then when he started making the appointments and doing all this stuff, you know, I thought, man, I don't know, So I don't know. I mean, my concern is that our system is like wanting the other side to do bad. So you can point everybody and say, look, how shitty. They are swinging on this pendulum, and there's some serious things at play right now, right like getting it's easy to bluster your
way into a trade war. It's really hard to manage and get out of a trade war, or when a trade war. So we're blustering our way into some really complicated stuff, and I just hope he's got like the right brilliant minds to navigate this.
Jonathan, you have seen who he is appointing, So which one of them is bright and brilliant?
The job of the hut? The secretary of Labor. Yeah, Now, I don't know. I'm just saying I'm making a point, which is that it's going to be important at some point to have qualified people. So who knows how long this cabinet will? You know, I was being a little.
Bit ironic, I think, So I do want to ask you. You know, you've mentioned it a couple of times. People are exhausted, People are finding themselves in a place of hopelessness, and what comes with that is that people tune out. And I think to a certain extent it is important to tune out. I don't think that you can follow everything that this administration is going to be doing and your mental health stay intact, Like I don't. I don't
think that that is going to be possible. But what recommendations do you have for people to keep their wits about them as the circus comes to town?
You know? Again, I think, believe it or not, Fetterman is right about this. Pick your battles, be really strategic about your battles. Think about the strategy of our positions. You know, I just think we're kind of a leaderless organization right now, and we're new a little bit of direction, and so there's a lot of you know, are we for or against murdering a healthcare CEO? Are we for or against like all things? I don't know. We're just like all over the place right now about like things
like that. So I think we're trying to figure out like what we're about, But it's not going to be something we know. In other words, if we yell louder. I believe this, and all my research shows if we yell louder about medicare for all, or if we yell outder about common sense gun reform, it's not going to convince more people. If we become more centrist, we lose
people on the left. So we need some kind of thing that's not you know, that takes a reckoning, It looks in a mirror of how we got here, and then thinks about ways. There was a really, I thought good article in the Atlantic about how politics is the game of persuasion, and right is really good at persuading people, and the left is falling into trap of kind of moralizing people, and so we need to get back in
the persuasion game a little bit more. I just think about in my book, for example, the one guy who said, you think, if you just yell louder, I'm going to know your points. But I understand your points already, and I don't agree with them, and so we you know. So again, I think we're gonna have to think about our playbook, think about how to broaden our coalitions and build from there. And then also, as much as possible, save all the archives of our institutions that are about to be taken apart.
All right, last thing for you is, you know what are you most looking forward to in twenty twenty five?
My softball team is going down to Mexico. We're playing if they'll have us, I guess from local Mexican teams. I'm doing a lot of like different traveling and stuff like that, and so I hope things don't implode. Honestly, I think Vanderbilt's doing some pretty incredible things right now. I think there are there's progress happening in a lot of places in this country, and I just hope doesn't get arrested stopped. I meant too much.
All right, Well, my dear friend, I cannot thank you enough for all of these years, for all of these conversations, and I look forward to seeing you in the new year, and you know, figuring out a way that we continue talking because it has been that has really been an honor, and I genuinely mean that.
Very much the same for me, And thank you to everyone out there who followed along.
I appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear friends, on woke app as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke. As fun