Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with me your girl, Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the Home Bunker.
Folks. You know, I want to start off today.
Today is the last pre recorded conversation that I had with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, and I just want to say, which I do at the top of our conversation, is just how grateful I am for Jonathan showing up each week, you know, to join me in conversation, to have some really tough conversations, but nonetheless try and figure out a way through write a path forward.
Whether we're talking about, you know, the gun issue, whether we're talking about abortion, whether we're talking about our democracy as a whole, mental health, all of these different components. It is wonderful to be in the trenches with somebody
like Jonathan. On today's episode, you know, we kind of give a retrospective, like I've been doing with some of our favorite friends on you Know, what we think about twenty twenty three, how it made us feel, how the year has landed for us, and you know, and kind of how we juxtapose the anxiety that we may feel about the politics right and where we are globally versus you know, how we've been managing through personally and what
conflicts that may arise internally around those things. I'm also excited to remind you all that in twenty twenty four, Jonathan and I will be live and in person in New York at green Light Books in Brooklyn, where we'll be in conversation about Jonathan's new book, What Have We Become? And I'm really excited and honored to interview him there. So if you find your way in New York or you're in New York, come out and check us out.
We're going to be promoting that appearance on our socials, so you'll be able to get the direct information there. In the meantime, my dear friends, Coming up next, my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. I cannot believe that this is the last interview that I am having with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel for the year for twenty not forever, but as we close out this year and open up a new one. Jonathan, First,
you know, I just have to thank you. You are literally the best and have been the most loyal and consistent and brilliant analysts that we have brought on wo KF. Every week you show up and it is just it is is truly given your schedule, all that you do, it's truly an honor to be in conversation with you every week and to count on and to look forward to conversation with you every week. So I just want to say how much I appreciate you.
Well, let me say the same. I mean, I it's just this is honestly the highlight of my week. Very often it's kind of like the world is spinning out of control, but Danielle and I will figure it out. So I'm grateful to everybody for listening in on like our mutual therapy every week. But it's really lovely for
me too. It's really a nice, consistent, rounding conversation where we we take things that don't make sense and we try to at least put a frame around them that makes them not manageable maybe, but at least at least gives us a way to think about them. And so I think it's it's very mutual. It's you know, it's it's maybe something to do with me or you, but it's also just the way we talk about things that it feels like it's very much like, Okay, the world's on fire, how are we going to put it out?
Kind of yeah.
And I you know, and I just think that I wish that more people, you know, had these types of conversations.
I wish that you know, that they were modeled for folks on how to have these conversations because we've had some difficult ones, right, We've had difficult ones where, you know, right by your campus at Vanderbilt was you know, one of the deadly school shootings of the year that took place, and you know, you being in the thick of those things we've talked about, you know, attacks that have been made on you and your character as you roll out your new book. So I just want to get your thoughts.
We'll just jump right in with you know. And I did this, I actually did this on democracy. Ish and Waja Hot and I were talking about you, Jonathan, and we said, so we were going back and forth.
We said, if you had to give.
Twenty twenty three a word, a word associated with twenty twenty three, what would your word be. So I'm going to change mind from what it was on democracy. It's for folks you have listened a multiple words. Oh what did Wash say?
You were talking about me on the show, like.
You Yeah, we were talking. Yeah, we were talking about dying of whiteness. And just like one of our you know, thoughtful, thoughtful friends that we rely on.
What was WASH's word?
I'm trying to think I remember what mine was, but okay, tell you tell me yours first.
I was worried that like I was the word of the year or something like that. It's yeah, well, you know, it's funny, but like when I think of twenty twenty three, like it's I don't know, there's not one single word for it. But like, the stakes of stuff are really clear right now, Like the stakes of things are really clear. Like it's more like whatever illusion we may have had about like what's at stake with everything is just like twenty twenty three was a year where like the stakes
of things are exposed like this. You know, the decisions are clear, the implications are clear. There's no mystery about anything right now. And so I guess like almost unveiling might be a kind of word that I would use. Yeah, yeah, it's not like we can ever look back at this moment and not know that the implications of the decisions we make and the actions we take are just have really real consequences. I mean, there, you know, there are
things to be encouraged about. And it's weird, like on one hand, like I don't love the like, look at all that Biden has done for you in something right right right, But if you add up like some of the stuff that the implications of winning the election have had about student debt reform, about building infrastructure, about like saving the economy, about like at least having like right now there's a new COVID variant, and the fact that
we have a reasonably viable vaccine booster that's not ivermectin and kool aid together. You know, those are real things, right. Your life would be a lot worse if it wasn't for those things. And so I don't want to minimize that fact. But I would also say that like it's kind of like that was like the preamble of all
the stuff that's coming. And so it's just there's something about like right now where like what we do really matters right now, And so that my word would be like something about and I really this is a very academic ye kind of word, but like unveiling implications, strategy, strategy stakes, something like that, which I know is not sexy as a word.
Like I would know, I you know, I would I think that unveiling yeah is actually a I think that that is a really good word, you know, for for the year yeah.
And so that that's it. I mean, like we are in we are in act one of something big, right. I made the joke on here before when the pandemic hit. I think about thinking about the guy in year two of the Hundred Years War.
And so I used this all the time, like if I don't know where we.
Are, I'm saying, like I can't believe we put up with two years this shit. And it's like, actually, historically you have ninety eight years ago, and so that's kind of where we are right now. And and so I just think that that's that's that's kind of what's on my mind these days. Like it's like we are, we are in the beginning of something big, and what that
how that plays out, It's just it. You know, who we elect, who's in charge the decisions we make about You asked about global and we've kind of gone back and forth. I mean even in our conversations about Yeah, the world is falling apart, our allies really our allies, and then we kind of come back together and we're like, Okay, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? And so I just think that's that's where we're at right now. What was your Yeah, I'm curious what was your word?
So my my word and I can't remember Waj's word, but my word on democracy ish was nimbleness.
And it was really talking about the fact that.
We are learning, right that we need the ability to roll with and stretch with whatever is coming our way. That this whole idea that we can you know that we're going to be stabilized anytime soon, isn't it. So you need to learn how to ground and be nimble with what is coming at you, otherwise you will break.
And so you know, when I think about.
Your word though, unveiled, you know, I really I think that my other word to two words pressure cooker, right, Like, I think that we are in a pressure cooker, and I think that twenty twenty four is going to decide whether we are able to safely remove the lid or it blows completely off, you know, And so I you know, that's what I think about as I'm like, and you know, it's also really challenging too because for you, I'm assuming as well for me personally, a lot of great things
have happened, right Like, you know, a lot of great things have happened career wise, a lot of great things have happened, and you know, in my personal life, and so to ux to pose that with like the the trauma and like the anxiety that we're collectively experiencing in the world is also a kind of really unnerving place to be. It's like sometimes it's like should I be happy? You know, because all of these things are happening, So it's a really it is It is really complex.
I mean, if we could, I mean the question is like, I mean, people are listening to this way around the holidays, So I think it's important for you and me and everybody to recharge right now because the energy it's going to take. Like the first thing you said, what are your words? And my first thought was hashtag rufi me.
I just want to forget, like like like just checking out is a natural thing, but we cannot do it right now, like the you know, we don't have that option right now to kind of just forget about things, and so it's going to take a lot of energy. I would say, yeah, but you know, I'll tell you why. I'm like, I'm thinking about guns a lot, obviously you know which is. And let me just say acknowledge first
that I agree with you. Like personally, personally things are a great you know, career, I have two books coming out this year. Things are like it's it's weird that there's this saying in psychiatry the negative affect gets the
attention or gets the energy. Like if there's one hundred people in a room at a party and ninety nine percent of the people are happy and like, I'm so nice to be here, and one person comes in and starts complaining, all the energy in the room goes toward that one person, which is obviously Trump and other people have mastered this. But so there's this thing where negative apact just because all of a sudden, it's like wired into our brains that we want to make that person happier,
we want to assuage that or something like that. And so positive affect it doesn't win elections, it doesn't get clicks, it doesn't it's not monetized in a way, and so in a way you have to almost apologetically on the side say oh, by the way, some good things happened, even though like you know, like just misery loves company. There's all these sayings about this in you know, going over the years, but that is kind of how our minds work, is that everything sucks is always going to
be a more compelling message. Particularly in electoral politics. Scaring the shit out of people about other people is always going to be a more effective strategy to get people to vote than is saying, oh, everything's great. This is in part on my mind. I'm writing an op ed this morning about the danger that the Democratic approach to guns poses to the Democratic platform, in for which you would think would be like totally anathetical to like how
we would think. You know that eighty six percent of Americans support background checks, ninety percent of people support banning assault weapons. Why do Democrats lose based on policies that have ninety percent support? And it's because the Republicans don't
even mess with the policy. They just say, you know, gang bangers are coming to steal your stuff, or you're going to be unprotected in a crime, or you need a gun, and liberals are going to come take your guns in a way, even though those positions don't link to any real policy except for like give everybody more guns, but they're incredibly powerful at getting people to vote out of scaring the crap out of people that things like that.
And so part of the issue is Democrats are winning the popular vote on guns, but they risk losing the election on guns even though what they do has ninety percent support, because the mess people are coming to take your stuff is a much greater driver of getting people to actually go to the polls than is ninety percent of people support background checks. And so that's this is
one of many many examples. But the point I try to kind of try to make is there are issues that are popularly supported, but they don't translate sometimes into electoral victories. And we just have to remember that, and not that we should scare the crap out of people, but I mean.
Oh I do. I try to do.
So that's that's that's what we do. So we have to remember that, like it's just weird. Our our winter take all electoral system rewards exactly the thing we're talking about here, which is and then you stop me, You're like, wait, a minute. I actually feel pretty safe in my life, but there's no room for that. And so that's kind of the that's the op ed I'm writing right now is like guns are a popular victory and an electoral liability for the Democrats.
While you're examining guns in that piece, I mean, you can say the same thing about the economy, right like, so you know you had and I can't remember the name of the journalists who coined this you know term, but he was just like, what Biden is saying in terms of biden Omics does not match the vibe that people have about the economy. So he's like, two things can be true at the same time. The economy can in fact be better than it was in you know, in in December of twenty twenty than it is now.
You know then it is better than you know now, But like how people are feeling about it is much more important than like the facts about it. And I think that that too, is what Republicans and the MAGA supremacs have been able to use, is that they go after people's feelings because they're at the end of the day, that's what rules people, not facts.
And so what should Biden do in that regard.
You know, you know, I talked to.
A not shankro Rosadio on this show, who is like the queen of messaging, and what she says is that you like Democrats as a whole, but politicians in general need to not spend time on what they have done because no one cares. They need to focus on what they are doing or going to do, right like, you need to be more future thinking. So great, you know, you save the economy from going over a cliff, and you know, and there are more jobs that have been
added and all of those things. That's fine, But what you need to talk about is what you are planning to do that are going to increase people, like, decrease people's anxiety and increase their possibility that like their lives can get better. Democrats are too busy always trying to remind people what they've done, and the fact is you're never going to remind people care about what's happening right now, what's in front of them.
Yeah, that's a good point, and again, I just think that's the risk right now, especially because we have a somewhat literly candidate heading our ticket, and so the risk of basically being nostalgic and saying, oh, look what we did and stuff like that, like that's kind of what we got right now, you know, And so I think fighting out of that is a huge is a huge deal.
But the question is, like think of all the times, like let's talk about Gaza for example, like you know, horrifying, divisive, polarizing, as we've talked about on here, and now now's the time to like step forward and say here's our peace plan or something like that. Like I think you can rally people because it feels to me and I don't know your sense of this is just one example. I mean, I'm dealing with all these bummer topics, but it was kind of like it felt like it was ripping our
coalition apart. And now people are kind of like, man, how can we how can we be forward looking in this horrible situation and think about like a world that comes next that actually brings us back together and promote StageAbility.
So like there's this vacuum right now of like we we kind of need a peace plan right now, it feels to me, And this is just one example, like there there are there are openings right now to be that kind of forward locking and so that's my question for you, is like, what is there a risk of that? Like then you put all your cards on the table and it might not happen. Is it that path?
Yeah, that's I mean, yes, yes, it is. Everything is a risk right now. So it's like, you know, what, how do how do you want? You know, it's like when trainers say everything is hard. You know, being overweight as hard, losing weight as hard. Choose your hard, right, like being in a being single as hard, being married is hard.
Choose your hard like the yeah, your head. Yeah, it's like you can't pretend.
I think that the lie that Americans have believed and what we have been afforded through that lie, is that like life can be easy, right, and like you're gonna have one year that's just gonna be great all twelve months, like and you're gonna have a president that's gonna be perfect on every single issue and you're gonna get all No,
it's not. That's not how life fucking works. So it's just like, yes, do they have a risk in either staying in the past and telling people what they did when people currently are still struggling and still feeling hardship, or do you tell people how you're gonna continue right to decrease their anxiety and like you know, and decrease their bills at the same time. Whether or not those
things actually happen is not the point. The point is being able to feed people hope, because in the absence of it, they will just gobble up all of the fear. And that is what the Republicans and MAGA supremacs are good at pedaling.
Yeah, I like that. I mean again, it's it's it's going to be interesting to see, honestly, how this flays out, right, because I think every time Trump says like I'm going to be a dictator on day one, to me, it makes really palpable for people like to me, that just seems like, I know, we're far gone, We're not that far gone that I feel like somebody saying I'm going to be a dictator on day one, even for Trump, like I feel like that, it just makes really present the risk.
That But here's the thing. This is the thing that pisses me off about Democrats is that every single time that Donald Trump does that that.
Would be pulled.
It would be a clip and it would be an ad and I would be running it all over social media. I would be running it over the airwaves. I would be running it like it's nobody's business. It would be funneling through TikTok. Just pulled, pull it and have the tie the date stamp on it, so that you know this isn't from you know this is yesterday, right. I
just feel like that, to me is the energy. I don't think that it's gonna decrease people's frustrations with his age, the anger at Gaza, the grief and all of those things, but it needs you need That's how you jog people's memory of who this person is.
I mean the flip side. I'm gonna admit something personal, which is I watch MSNBC like for hours on end. I actually just watch the news like I have it on in the background or something like that. I know that is really nerdy, but the thing is, like, the thing is like if you watch MSNBC, which like you and I are on every so often, like the number of times they show clips from January sixth, it's like eighty five percent of every show is Trump and January.
And I just my fear is that people kind of start to zone out about it, and and like it's very rarely like, oh, here's a story about something great Biden is doing. Here's the story about whatever. It's like January sixth on repeat. And I think the danger of like continually reminding or something is people start to zone out a bit. So you have to kind yeah, either the GOP is good to the temperature or flip it.
I just I think in a way like January six is like the worst thing that's happened by far in many ways to our you know, the threat it poses to our electoral system, but it just feels like if you overplay it without like some kind of hook and people start to people start to tune out. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
So last question for you, Jonathan and our just looking ahead. You know, what are you or how are you? Let me ask you this, how are you going to prepare for twenty twenty four? What does preparation for twenty twenty four look like for you?
Well, it's interesting for me, right because I have a book tour coming up. In fact, I've booked our where you and I are going to be speaking live. In fact, the link went up today. I'll send it to you, so yes, but I'm going to have a you know, when you have a book come out, you have a platform. And so I'm going to be on the road January February March, giving talks and keynotes and talking in towns. So in a way it's not like a political campaign, but for an academic, this is kind of our version
of a political campaign. You prepare for it, you're out there. And so I really hope to hone my message about the relationships between at least for me, guns and voting and what the implications are the stakes could not be more clear, but that in a way just falling into the mistake that democrats fall into that assuming that gun safety has common and sense. To me, that's a really bad position to be in. And instead really are needing to articulate like what that means in really tactile form.
And so you and I all would be talking a lot with me, like in a hotel room in the middle of like, oh my god, what town am I in today? Or something like that, for our, for our, for our at least when I'm on the book tour. Yeah, And so for me, I'm going to have a platform, and the question for me is like how much can I contribute to this? That's kind of how I'm thinking about it.
I love it, and I am so excited for February fifth at green Light Books in Brooklyn, which is where Jonathan and I will be. That is so one of the things that I'm absolutely looking forward to in the new year. So super excited about that, and Jonathan, you know, I wish you a happy holidays, rest and relaxation, and we will see you back here ready to hit the ground running.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, to you to our listeners, to everybody on the show. It's again just my consistent honor to be part of these conversations.
That is it for me today, Dear friends on wokef as always, power to the people and to all the people.
Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.