The Case for Cancel Culture

of the United States lauded over them. I can't imagine that we are living through a time where a president of the United States uses his bully pulpit and his power to target civilians. And I don't think that we are wrapping our minds around the precedent that Donald Trump has set and up until this point, right, all we are doing right now is hearing about the criminal behavior. It is not being prosecuted right It is being laid out in an evidentiary fashion for the world to see.

But I don't think that we are really grasping that if Donald Trump is not held accountable for the crimes that he's committed, not only against Miss Lady Ruby and her daughter Shae Moss, against Raffensberger, against you know, all of us as citizens of these United States until we understand the consequences of turning into I don't know, let's say hungry. You know, Fox News's new favorite satellite place

to have Tucker Carlson air his shows from. Let's think about other areas like, oh, I don't know, Russia, there are other other places that they love to broadcast from. What it means to have a president be able to wield that type of power and against citizens and have no consequences. What does the future look like? You know, you always hear about the right wanting to talk about free speech as a way to weaponize their language and

their language of violence against marginalized people. Well, I don't foresee having the ability to have significant freedom of speech when you can be targeted killed because the president of the United States doesn't like what you say and decides then to make you a target. And people can say, well, oh, Donald Trump didn't actually say go and storm the capital. No, he just said everything else, but that Donald Trump by virtue of putting a target on Lady Ruby and her

daughter basically said how dare you? How dare you decide to volunteer for your community to be an elector during

a time of a pandemic, How dare you? Because the only people that can be trusted are the criminals that he surrounds himself with, making an example of people like the two of those women, so that others that think to themselves, maybe I too would like to volunteer, will think twice and so that instead you have what people like the Proud Boys and the oath Keepers and other white supremacist with their AAR fifteen standing at our poll places.

Is that what the future of America looks like? Well, it is, frankly and less once and for all we rid ourselves, not only of Donald Trump, but of Trump is a you know, I keep listening to reporters interview Republicans and as if they're like normal people with just a conservative ideology. These are people that believe the big lie, that are part of the cult right, that believe that Donald Trump did no wrong, should not have any accountability,

and that this is the future of our democracy. That you can just cry foul because you don't have policies or a platform that align with the majority of people, and so if the people choose not to elect you, then you can just throw up your hands and say, oh, this is fraudulent. It's not. Your platform is bogus, So it is to me. You know, you would think that there would be more than two Republicans that would actually

stand up. You would think that as Mike Pence his own life was threatened, that he would throw his full weight behind our democracy. But he's a tepid piece of shit right, just like the rest of them. But I just want us to really understand that if not for the handful of people, brave people who decided to not go along with the President of the United States's scheme to defraud the American people, we would be in a

completely different place right now. Now. I'm not going to say that the place that we're in is great, because it's sure as fuck as not. But imagine what would have happened if Mike Pence had decided that he was going to go along with Donald Trump, that he was going to decertify the election for Biden and just institute Donald Trump as president. Remember, we had already had a

six to three Supreme Court. So if you think back to two thousen and who actually decided that election, it was not the American people, it was the Supreme Court. Donald Trump was thinking ahead. The things that I think that are missing in terms of these hearings that are taking place right now is the fact that this was not something that was cooked up in November. It wasn't cooked up in December. It was fucking cooked up well

before the first ballot was even cast. Go back to the first utterances of Donald Trump saying that the only way that he's going to lose this election is if it's stolen. Go back to that. That is when Donald Trump began to devise the plan to defraud the American people. And now we look, we look at actually the human cost of that ill faded plan. And I say ill faded because it didn't succeed this time, but without prosecution by the Department of Justice, it will succeed the next time,

you know. Coming up next my conversation with the author of the book The Case for Cancel Culture, Ernest Owens, and Ernest and I will get into what I think is a really important conversation where he believes that cancel culture is used as a democratic tool by the oppressed to hold those that have power right the privilege of

whiteness to be able to skirt the law. So what else is left for people to do we unpack this, and I ask him questions about, you know, how is the useful way to cancel somebody, And he's just like, well, if you're Elon Musk, if you're Donald Trump, and you've been able to live above the law, exists in the clouds. The only way to get rid of somebody like you is to use the power of our social consciousness and say, this person has a scarlet letter. That hasn't been done

enough with Donald Trump. And I don't think that we will see even a crack in the Maga dome until and unless this Department of Justice goes after not only Donald Trump, but every single person around Donald Trump and takes them down. We continue to say each and every week on this show that democracy hangs in the balance. I can't express to you enough that fact. We're seeing Supreme Court cases file one by one, not even chip away right, not even claw away, but hack away at

our constitution, at the separation between church and state. Because guess what new case by the Supreme Court. Guess where your tax dollars are going to find religious schools? Because the core of the Republican Party has always wanted to defund public education. Well, So now, if state money needs to go to religious institutions that you decide to send your kids to as opposed to the public schools, who do you think is going to be affected? Friends, Each

and every day becomes darker here. And the mustard seed of light and hope that we are holding onto is that while Merrick Garland is often the fucking Ukraine, that he's still paying attention to what is happening in this country. And I say that not because we don't want to support Ukraine, but if I have to make a dischoice between their democracy or hours, I want Hours protected first, because there's no way to protect other countries if America falls.

That's just the reality. We saw it at the beginning of the Trump administration when he was pulling out of global agreements and task for send groups. So if America is no longer a democracy and we leave a vacuum, what do you think moves into place? So coming up next, friends, the author of the book The Case for Cancel Culture, Ernest Owens, and our conversation about how we use cancel culture as a way to regain power that has been lost.

It's no secret that the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The Bituation Room podcast hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free Erntini for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week, The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists to break down the issues in a way that won't just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get The Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and

streaming on YouTube and Twitch. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer look at how and

why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to woka F for the very first time, Award winning journalists Ernest Owens, whose upcoming book the case for cancel culture, how this democratic tool works to liberate us. All join Ernest.

It is great to have you on wokea f Cancel culture is a word, a phrase that has been thrown around. My God, I don't know, probably in my recollection the beginning of the Trump administration. There was literally just a piece this week in I want to say, It's New York magazine talking about how cancel culture is detrimental to high school students and what it means and how it's devastating. So I want to hear from you. Why is cancel culture in your opinion, a good thing? Well, thank you

for having me on. I think for starters, I think a lot of people have used council culture in the wrong way. The term. I think that for some people, those who are privileged and have power, it's a dog whistle to divorce themselves from accountability, and that what has happened is is that you know, in my book, I talk a lot about the history of council culture, Like

before it was council culture, it was political correctness. Before its political correctness, it was well before it was we got after political correctness, it was call out culture, and it's been all of these other terms. But if we actually look at who's been using those terms and when do they come into play, it's often by those with power. It's often those who are are privileged in some type of way, and it's often used as a way to try to deflect attention from those who've been afflicted, those

who are marginalized. And so I think that if we if we actually look at what counsel culture is actually doing and what people are trying to accuse it of, we find that those who are being accused of counseling people often those who've been afflicted, who have been done in a wrong way, who's been abused, and other things, and that it's actually the device that is used by the oppressed to actually act out in ways that the system,

the justice system, other systems couldnot address, you know. So I think that in that way, if we look at counsel culture as a tool by the marginalized to address things the powerful was done to them, that is in itself a good thing. So let me ask you this, you know, because one of the I guess one of the most problematic sides of cancel culture has been are

we learning anything those people right? When we talk about accountability because I talk about accountability a lot on WIKA app, particularly holding white sis hetero men who are often in power accountable for their wrongdoing, whether it is sexual harassment, whether it's you know, undermining our democracy, criminal behavior in any so fashion. Is there a learning that happens or is it just a fear? So I won't say this thing, but I still believe this thing, like is there an

ability to learn from bad behavior if people are just canceled? Like, is there any is there any redemption? I guess is the question or is it to have a larger conversation about the wrongdoing. I think that this has been going on, like for starters. I want to be clear, cancel culture is not a new phenomenon. You know, this is around for the beginning of time. And so when we say people are canceled, are people really canceled? Right? Are people

actually forever forbidden? And in those cases where we're asking that question about redemption and things, that's a larger conversation about the justice systems that be and society within. I think it's up to the individual who was in that situation if they should But I think oftentimes I'm very worried about considering what's for the offender rather than considering those who have been afflicted. Because that story that you're talking about that's in the cut from New York magazine. Yeah,

time and my opinion victim blaming. It's been a lot of time trying to empathize with those who do wrong, and what we forget in these conversations that while we're quick to jump into, you know, well, what about the consequences that person did that thing, we do ignore the conversation on accountability. I think that from accountability, if these things are done in the order to which they are, learning can come from those things. Resolution can come from

those things. But because we're in society that is so scared right to hold people actually accountable, we oftentimes are answering asking questions that could be answered if we actually went through the process. So I think, you know, actually, did you know, call people out, did address these issues? If people acknowledge their wrongdoing, if people actually face whatever consequences they were in those in that process, learning is

happening there right. People are understanding what they did wrong and why they did it right. I think there's a lot that can be learned in the process within the self. You know. One of the things that had pissed me off at the beginning of the Trump administration and m was hearing people his Trump is his maga. People say that they love Donald Trump because he just tells it like it is. There's no political correctness, there's no whatever.

He's just going to be as misogynistic, as ableist, as you know, racist, as all of these things, and to them, that's authenticity. What is your pushback to that? Because there has been what I feel like, is this progression or actually regression to just vitriol, nastiness and couching that as being authentic, right, And it's not. But that's what that's

what the right has co opted. If you're if the if if we want to say that the political left is supposedly about inclusion, right, then the political right is has made their case for exclusion. So they're gonna they're like, we don't have to use people's pronouns, we don't have to you know, speak kindly to other people, because that's not I'm not going to be forced to political correctness, right, So what is your pushback to that? Well, for starters,

I think that those levels of luxuries that of ruteness. Right, there's a luxury that that is a privilege. There's a privilege to be condescending and rude in that type of way. And that's a luxury to the powerful, right because they don't have to have the same moral code or consequences everything people do. One of the things that I talk about in my book is that I argue that everyday people don't get canceled. That if you say, for example, something racist at your job and you lose your job,

you weren't canceled. You were held accountable to the code of conduct that you agreed to when you signed that contract, right, And I think that's what we're missing here, is that powerful people, super rich people, the Harvey Wine seems of the old. Those individuals are the ones that oftentimes can make the rules and break the rules and behaving frits and have all the power, right, so they're not held to the same standards and laws and rules that the

rest of us do. So that is why people have to arguably cancel them, because there is no other way to hold them accountable. And so what we've seen is that the most powerful, most privileged individuals, right, white cis had men, These real big Republicans on the right that have all this political influence is that they try to make it seem like we're all on the same playing field, that what they're doing anyone else can do. But we see that other people do what they do, they don't

get the same types of privileges and consequences. See if if I or a group of white people you know, just aside to go to their burger king because they didn't like the hiring of a boss or the promotion of a new boss, and they went to that burger king and tore it down and had an insurrection at burger king, they would all be immediate going the JETL versus a former president inciting and now debating whether or not criminal charges we filed, those are not the same.

Those are not the same situations. And so I want to explain to people that to me, council culture is about a power dynamic shift. It's about those who can't be held accountable in any other way other than a collective force of action that caused them out. People are not creating social media campaigns to call out folks that

no one don't know or don't hold any power. And yet the problem is is that a lot of times white people and their white guilt makes them seem like there's a target on their back, when in reality, the target is on anyone with powers back. And so in some cases that do mean white sis head men like Trump, and in some cases it can mean a comedian like Dave Chappelle, who is one of the richest, most well known comedians in the in the planet. Like that is

what people have to understand. It's a real power dynamic. Race do influence, its gender influences, its sex orientation influences, but it's really about power. And I think a lot of people want to believe that they have equal amounts of power to those of Trump, but that's just not true.

You know, we watch at least I was watching the fourth installment of the of the Insurrection hearings, right and just you know, for the example, listening to um, you know, miss Lady Ruby and her daughter Shame Moss, two black women who were targeted by the President of the United States and literally have lost their name, have lost their businesses, have lost their so have lost their ability to live free from violence, right, whether that be verbal or physical.

And as I was watching that hearing and I'm saying to myself, the President of the United States used his platform to target citizens who were doing nothing other than their civic duty right to help out their county, Fulton County and Georgia in the midst of a pandemic. And I said to myself, why didn't we at that time have a conversation about power, right and the abuses of power?

Because to your point, you're absolutely right. I think that when we are having conversations about cancel culture, those of us that are using it as a tool right to hold people accountable, I think that we're not couching that conversation in power. We're always talking about it. We're coming from the defense as opposed to let me talk about

it where you're from, where you're situating your book. You know the case for cancel culture to say no, no, no, Like if we're talking about an Elon Musk, if you're talking about a Donald Trump, you're talking about multi billionaires and multimillionaires that literally can buy and sell whomever whatever they want, right, and they are seen as like a product in that way, there is no other choice but to deny these people the oxygen in the room. So

Donald Trump being canceled from Twitter. Was was a safety mechanism, right, It was about taking back what little power? So, how do you think, Ernest, that we how do you think that we shift these conversations? How do we how do we reclaim the purpose of actually holding power accountable? Because powered, because I have been I've been tweeting this for the past week. White men are never gonna hold white men in power. Ain't gonna hold white men in power accountable.

That is not who the systems were created for. Right, And so how do you think that we reclaim this tool and talk about it from a space that actually has it expressed as what it is, which is a reclamation of power that has always been absent from those that are oppressed? How would they read my book like like I wrote this book because I've been in those experiences. I've covered them in my journalism career, and they've always

shown up and manifested in different ways. Until your point, It is about number one, telling everybody one take a breath, Calm down. Everyday people, everyday working class people. We're not the target of counseling. We're not the ones that are canceling each other having an argument, having a disagreement, having a difference of opinion is not counseling. We need to

look at who is. Always tell people that when you see the most powerful people on the left and the right agreeing over an issue together, that means that they want the rest of us not to pay attention. When you can see Andrew Cuomo saying they come on, and when you can see Donald Trump, you know, banning counseling, talking about counsel culture. Why do what do these people have in common? They all have power, they all have privilege. And sometimes what we've done is we've let counsel culture

become a political issue of left versus right. It's not a blue issue, it's not a red issue. This is a bipartisan issue with the powerful people have agreed that they don't like black power, they don't like counsel culture. Let's take the word. Let's say let's let's take counsel culture out and say accountability. I bet you for every situation where these people have yelled that they don't like counsel culture, replace the world with accountability and it's the

same effect. And who are they doubling down on women, black and brown people, queer people, trans people, poor people. It's something to be said that there's a David and Golia of dynamic here. And I want everyday people to recognize that counsel culture is a tool that scares the powerful people into submission to be more accountable in ways

they were not. My book talks about how before everyday people get to the point of counseling, there's a thousand things we do before things go from zero to one hundred, and no one ever acknowledges that that there was conversations, There was simple requests, and then when those were ignored, people had to hit the streets. People had to then call people out. I think people have to recognize that it's not just some one day people wake up and

choose violence. It's that that is oftentimes the only resort they have after they've tried everything else. And history has shown us that look at what they're calling counsel culture. They called Black Lives Matter counsel culture. They called me to counsel culture. But did me to not give women an opportunity and a voice in a platform to share their stories to hold these violent men accountable? Did Black Lives Matter not create a racial uprising and reckoning for

white people? In this country. Why are we shaming and condemning the very things that have liberated people and have given these people free speech and the same First Amendments that white people have used and abused for centuries. It's a double candle, and let's be very clear, everybody's counseling each other. We're not gonna sit up and act like Jerry Falwell wasn't out here trying to cancel the Teletubbies. We're not gonna sit up here and act like the

Dixie Chicks weren't canceled. We're not trying to act like there was not islamophobia and canceling of Muslim communities during nine to eleven. Like the same people out here talking about religious freedom are the same people that use that to dictate how they've canceled books in communities, Like this is a hypocrisy, Like they're trying to they're trying to counsel us and use the very tools that we've done to hold them accountable to now weaponize that against us

to suppress us. It's a big hypocrisy. And I just want everyday people to recognize that there's nothing to fear, recount the culture that this is a term that I am reappropriating. I don't want to call it accountability culture. I don't want to call it anything. I want to embrace this term because there's power in the term. Because they're scared, because the world is getting browner, the world is getting woker, the world is starting to recognize things that they used to be able to turn off and

shut down. What do you hope, Ernest? My last question for you, what do you hope that people take from your book? What? What what tools do you hope and what do you envision after folks read read your book that they take from it. I want there to be a real reshifting of the narrative around holding people accountable.

I want people to stop victim blaming. I hope that a lot of people don't automatically this gut reaction that every person has, or at least we're seeing on social media that people are like, oh, I don't want to say that because I'm want to get canceled. That. It reminds me of like during Me Too, where people are saying, what will happen? Will men will me to make men, you know, rethink everything they do. No, because I shout shod it right? It should right? But also the department.

It's like people who've been practicing etiquette and practicing decent behavior or trying to are not the people that's on the chopping block, like these people. Like we have to understand that we as a society, especially in America, always feel like when people do problematic things, they're mistakes. We're quick to believe that all of these things happening are mistakes and people are innocent, and it's like own, what was them? They made that mistake, they caused that insurrection,

They said that very racist thing on national television. It was such a mistake. Oh my goodness, Joe Rogan said the N word several times. What a mistake. These are not mistakes, Come on, These are a real abuses that cause harm. So I hope that when people read this book and see all the case studies and examples and interviews I do, that they'll take a step back and say, you know what, that person deserved that consequence. I can understand why people did what they're do. This community had

no other choice. People were put in a position to have to make these decisions because there was no other way. And we start to reshift the conversation and not looking at how to redeem and heal problem with people, but how to better protect defend those who've been afflicted that when they read this book, they say, you know what, this is gonna make me think about ways that I can show up to help the trans community. This is going to help me be a better advocate for women issues.

This is going to help me think twice before I play Devil's Advocate and conversations about race. I hope that this is going to create a cultural reset on how we talk about accountability in this country because the people out here it's fighting for our democracy, our rights, o our livelihood. Those people this book is dedicated to them. I dedicate this book to those people, and I hope that we don't forget them in these conversations. Ernest, let

me tell you something. I hope that folks will run, not walk, to go out and buy your book because I think that we need it at this time. I think that we need you know as because what we are seeing it is the power grab right between the oppressed and the oppressor. And what did you know, what have so many philosophers said is that no one relinquishes power right. It has to be taken right and So if we allow them to dictate the narrative, if we allow them to co opt and weaponize, to use your

word to weaponize accountability, then we continue to lose. And so I think that your book is a going to be that tool that is needed at this time. So Ernest, thank you so much for making the time to join woke f folks. The book is the case for cancel culture, how this democratic tool works to liberate us all. Get it now at Amazon and everywhere that books are sold.

We appreciate you, Arnes, Thank you, Thank you. The Damage Report with John Idarola is one of the most popular shows on the TYT Network that serves as your daily breakdown of the genuine threats and challenges facing our country and world. These days, we're confronted with an overwhelming sea

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the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to apple current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer look at how and why these topics matter.

Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday.