Rich Thanks to Racism

to make that time. And so for me, dear friends here on woke F, I am going to be taking a much needed vacation so that I can rest and recharge as we head into what I believe is going to be one of the craziest falls we've ever seen.

I have left you with eight amazing episodes that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being, and a look inside frankly with some of the guests that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get video

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to all of you. They hit on all of the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F, from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality, which my God, and the need and the need and the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that have been thrown at us over the past couple of years.

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about another podcast I think you'll love. The Brown Girl's Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Goehler, the president of Emerge BGG, is the one stop shop for women of color who want to hear and talk about the world of politics. Join a Shanty this season as she talks to incredible women of color who are changing the face of politics and tackling some of the most important issues facing the United States, from reproductive justice to voting rights,

to climate change and more. Tune in every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. It's no secret that the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The Bituation Room podcast hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free Erantini. For a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week, the Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists to break down the issues in a way that won't just

leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get the Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and streaming on YouTube and Twitch friends. I am so excited to welcome to Wika affadaily for the first time. Jim Freeman, civil rights lawyer and head of the University of Denver's Social Movement Support Lab and the author of Rich Thanks to Racism, How the ultra wealthy got rich off of Racial justice.

Let me see, Jim, one of the things that really concern me as this pandemic has gone on is that we have seen how much disparity there is in the United States, like we have always known, right UM. But when you see who is essential, who is not, who is actually profiting off of this pandemic, and who needs the twelve hundred dollars that uh that were that was put together in the COVID nineteen relief plan that was just passed by UM and signed by the Biden administration.

What comes up for you when you think about the context of your book and how people have gotten rich off of racism, Like this is not just a oh like you say, this isn't just about educating people out of racism. This is a policy. Well, then there's there's a lot that comes up for me, as you might imagine. Um, I mean, certainly, you know the you know how the cashier at your local pharmacy is now recognized properly as an essential worker, but yet we've never felt it appropriate

to pay that essential worker a living wage. Certainly that comes up for me. But you know, generally, I mean, you know, I think this is really an acceleration of a lot of the things I talk about in the book and and and what that really is is, you know, it's very exciting that there are a lot of people now, particularly after last summer, who started to recognize the urgency to end systemic racism. And it's very exciting that lots

more people are joining this movement, joining these efforts. I mean, I think the movement that's being built right now can can finally achieve that goal. But I wrote the book because there's very little understanding of what and who stands

in the way of that. And it's a lot of these dynamics that you're talking about Right, because I wanted people to understand that the biggest reason why systemic racism persists is that these dynamics pre COVID and during COVID, which are so devastating for so many people of color and so many communities of color, are for a lot

of large corporations and Wall Street banks enormously profitable. They are the biggest reason why we have these deeply unjust policies on the books, and they're also heavily invested in preserving and expanding racial inequities, which I refer to as as strategic racism. So the book is really intended to give people a roadmap of what it's going to take to truly dismantle systemic racism, because while it's very doable, there's still not enough people supporting racial justice efforts and

far too many people opposing them. And as you say, a lot of those people are getting even more wealthy and more powerful as a results of this global pandemic.

I mean, we're looking, you know. One of the things that come up for me is a recent headline Jeff Bezos right is now worth one hundred and forty three billion dollars, and in the headlines, right, are the workers that work in the Amazon factories, right, that have been working around the clock to ship us all our packages so that we could work from home, who don't have proper healthcare, who don't have the ability to sue their employer for unhealthy work environment. And yet he's the becoming

the richest and richest and richest. I mean, he's going to probably reach at some point a trillion dollars in net worth, and yet the people that work for him can't afford to put food on the table. We see these stories and we kind of just shrug Jim about it, Like we get mad, and we're mad, and we're on social media for a day or two, and then we

all go back to business as usual. How do you sustain you think the outrage and the attention where the tension needs to be due, which is that we have a very wrong sized capitalistic structure that is based on racism and injustice and ensuring that some people stay on the bottom while other people stay on the top. How do we sustain the attention and the outrage. Well, I think a big part of it, I mean, you're absolutely right.

I mean I think a big part of it is exposing the full circle of that injustice, right, because there are there are a lot of people who are starting to recognize the injustice of what of what you just said. There are a lot of people who have for a long time, obviously, but more and more people are recognizing

the injustice of what you just said. What I think people didn't have much understanding of is how not only are billionaires like that making a tremendous amount of money off of people who aren't being paid a living wage, who can pay for, you know, all the things that we should take as a given for you know, for

meeting people's basic human needs. Not only are they doing that, they're then taking their money and reinvesting it in strategies to further oppress those people, right, and particularly communities of color. And most of the time that's done in secret. It's not done in public view. Like they're not passing all these criminal justice policies with their name on it, right, They're not passing all these immigration policies with their name

on it. Right. They're doing this mostly in secret through organizations like ALEC American Legislative Exchange Council, And so they're making money off of us, or they're taking the money that we give to them for the products that we need to survive, and then they're using that to make our lives harder on the back end. So I think there's a lot of strategies and tactics that we need to employ to to, like you say, sustain the outrage.

What I hope that this book contribute was shedding some light on what that looks like and how that contributes to systemic racism in particular. You know, in your book Rich Thanks to Racism, you look at three particular areas of focus. You look at our education system, criminal justice, and immigration. Walk me through those three and why those three were chosen, as I mean, obviously they should be. I talk about this unwoke a of all the time

as a former educator. I say that there is no better mechanism to support the consistency of white supremacy without the public education system, Without us telling kids who is important, who is not, who is worth studying, who is not, what is considered classic literature, what is not right. We are purposefully educating under the guys that racism will die out with generations. And if that were the case, it

would have died out hundreds of years ago. So why did you look at these particular areas and what do they show us about how racism is exacerbated and how the ultra wealthier profiting off of it in these particular areas.

I focused on those three areas in particular because you know, there may not be a more significant racial justice issue in the US right now than the massive overinvestment in the criminalization of people of color, alongside the dramatic underinvestment in the systems and strategies that would create healthier, safer,

and more equitable communities nationwide. Right So, on those three issues, you know, we've dramatically expanded the criminal justice system, made it the catch all solution for an enormous variety of public health and safety issues, and particularly within black and brown communities. Then we took that same coach, that same destructive and ineffective tough on crime approach, and we exported it to the immigration enforcement system while implementing a variety

of cruel and discriminatory policies targeted undocumented folks. And then meanwhile, like you say, we have never in the entire history of our country been willing to create a truly equitable education system. We've never been willing to put youth of color on equal footing with white youth. So the harm caused by each of those within communities of color is astronomical. But what they also share in common is that the ultra wealthy are heavily invested in maintaining and even exacerbating

those inequities. So if you follow the money behind all the public policies that create those systems, what you soon find is that you wind up coming back to the network that the Koch brothers created of billionaires and multi

millionaires who are investing in those systems. You find organizations like ALEC with large corporations and Wall Street banks that are, like I said, pushing these policies, usually secretively, and those two groups in particular have made huge investments in think tanks and advocacy organizations and media outlets that have been very, very successful in advancing that that agenda. But then what I also want to do is breakdown why, like what's

the strategy behind it? And I obviously spill a lot of ink about this in the book, but the short answer is because it's all those things are economically advantageous for them, you know, they I refer to them as racism profiteers. They make money off of mass incarceration through the prison industrial complex and those dynamics, but a variety of others too that before writing book I wasn't even aware of. They also make money off immigrant attention. They

make money off of school privatization. That's one layer. But another layer is they pay less in taxes when we as a society choose to dehumanize people rather than meeting their basic human needs, which is a big part of all those systems. And I would also say that systemic racism is extremely effective at controlling us, at dividing us, at causing us not to recognize our common interests. So all of those dynamics help them maintain their political and

economic power. You know, it's so depressing because the reality is is that none of this is shocking or surprising. It is it's just a matter of connecting the dots, you know. A couple of um Like a year or so ago, we had the president and CEO of Color of Change on and Color of Change was very instrumental in unearthing although the things that ALEC had been doing right basically taking the black and brown communities money by day right, and then voting and then creating legislation that

would upend our lives at night. That's that is their m O. And but when you bring these things to the forefront, I feel like the conversation that we continue to have is trying to shame the it's your shame Republicans into doing the right thing. We try to appeal

to their moral character. Shouldn't we do more? Right? We are the eleventh wealthiest nation in the world, and yet our poverty levels in the and the issues that affect our country look similar to those that are in developing nations, right, and so we know then that it isn't about money or access to money. It is about a choice. And so given that fact that we know that you're making profit off of people's back, which is the whole premise

of your book, how do we stop it? What is the What is if the incentive isn't, oh, we're going to give you tax breaks if you keep your businesses here, or we're going to try and you know, give you these breaks. Because Republicans still believe in some type of trickle down when there isn't a desire for there to be a trickle down. There never was, which is why after thirty years, we haven't seen a trickle down. So

what do we do here? Because the naming and the and the shaming is important, right, recognizing you can't fix something unless you actually see the problem. But the reality is many people like yourself see the problem, articulate the problem,

and yet still here we are. Yeah, you're right. I mean the I think trying to expose those issues, like you say, is it's part of you know, popular education, just letting folks know what's going on with with their money and with the politics that affect their lives, but ultimately solving it is, which is really, you know, the only purpose of writing book. I'm a civil rights lawyer.

I'm interested, and I support social movements. My interest is in getting more people involved, and so what I really wanted to say was that, you know, if you actually break down that agenda and the power behind it. You know, for a long time, I thought as a civility, So I thought I was working against ignorance. That's what I thought. I thought if I educated enough people, then then people's best intentions would come out and we would solve all

these issues. And turns out I was the one who was deeply ignorant early on in my career, and now you know, I've recognized that the only there's only one source of political power that is comparable to that of organized wealth, and that's the power of organized people. Right. I think ultimately it's going to require stronger multiracial mass movements to dismantle systemic racism and create a society that's far more attentive to the well being of all its people.

Because the solutions to the issues, the policy issues that I talk about in the book, they're not complicated. They you know, folks of color in the communities most directly impacted by these issues have been saying the stuff for a very long time. The problem is is not the ideas or you know, the folks were supporting. The problem isn't the opposition. So we need to build strong enough

movements to implement those those solutions. And like you say, also, we have to be able to get to the point where we can make a collective demand the ultrawealthy as a group that they stop advancing strategic racism and not only do that, but support the effort to dismantle the systems that perpetuate racial inequity and that lead to profits for them, and they either do that or we find other solutions that limit their powers so that the rest

of us can do it. But you know, my other question is where is the incentive to limit their power when in fact they're the ones that are funding the packs right of the members of the members of Congress who vote against their constituent's best interests as a way to fill their coffers. And so it's there there is the understanding that we need this collective movement, and we know that we've been working on that. We've been telling people you need to vote, you need to vote in masks,

they show up, they do it. Historic numbers. Now we see a historic number of voter suppression pieces of legislation that are being offered up in over forty states across this country. And so while we see the power is actually in the people, right, but we see that the people and their ability to utilize that power is being dead ended by a political party. And so it's you

have this information, you know what will stop it. I guess my feeling is that we're headed towards a powder keg moment in America right like, where there are so many ills and so many problems and we're pointing at the ultra rich, and we're saying you're a root of a lot of these problems. Money is a root of a lot of these problems. How do we how do

we move forward if the masses are being silenced? Right, if communities of color continue to be surveiled in a way that doesn't allow us to exercise our vote and our power to stop to stop this, because just to say that you need to do better, Bezos, you need to do better Murdock, and this, that and the other, they're not going to Yeah, you're right, I mean they have um. Currently they have no incentive to stop what they're doing. Um. They don't UM. And we haven't created

that incentive for them. And so you know, I so it's not enough, um, just to educate ourselves and and vote better. Yeah. And you know one thing I argue for in the book is um um more of what we might call participatory democracy. Right. If if our version of democracy is just you know, voting every two years, every four years and then tuning out and and appealing to the benevolent paternalism of those who are in office, then we are going to be sorely disappointed by what

comes out of it. So what I what I suggest is is folks finding other ways to get involved in a more consistent basis far more often. And you know that. And really what I'm arguing for in the book is people powered organizations, you know, building strong mass organizations. In this work, it's the difference between winning and losing, right, between having a powerful organized force pushing for change and

merely having a large number of isolated voices in the wilderness. Right, there can be a million protesters out in the streets yelling about various injustices. But if those million folks are a million atomized individuals, then whatever impact is created by their actions will quickly dissipate. We'll be back to business

as usual before long. But if those million protesters are members of organizations that can start to build off of the momentum created by that protest and channel it into positive social change, then we can start to collectively shift a needle. So I give I only offer two action steps in the book. UM. One is supporting UM grassroots racial justice organizations that are that already exist. UM. There's

hundreds of them out there in every state. UM. They're usually severely underresourced relative to their opposition in the fights UM that they're taking on and have been taking on for a very long time. UM. So they need financial donations and they need you know, every other kind of support UM that folks can offer as well. And the other thing I say is that we should be creating what I call community equity assemblies in every community in the US. Which so what does that look like, Well, yeah,

it's yeah, it's UM. Initially it can be very informal, you know, just groups of people coming together to talk about equity issues and their issues, talk about systemic racism and other um, you know, other UM equity issues and and just to learn about it and and start to think about how you can address it locally. It could be just a few people, doesn't have to be a formal body, but UM. And by the way, you know, little groups like that create enormous change around the country

every day. I'm fortunate enough to you know, to work with a lot of them. But over time, you start building in more people, bringing in more people rather UM and UM, and start getting more involved in local political processes or state political processes. All of a sudden, UM,

we can start shifting things very very quickly. We can we can have um folks um getting a much bigger seat at the table when it comes to budget decisions, when it comes to policy decisions, And it really doesn't take um that many people or that much time for um UM for all of a sudden things to change pretty dramatically once we start shining a light on equity issues and we have people who are educating themselves about these issues in a in a national level and an

international level, but also in very very local level who are building together and taking ownership over those things. And that is that can be transformative. And it's also, by the way, what the ultra wealthy probably fear the most.

Well last question for you is this just going back to the pandemic and what it has illuminated, especially for folks who are not steeped in this work in the way that you are, is that we have been relying on the benevolence of billionaires and millionaires essentially to do the work that our government has not. When it's done well, we're looking at the Bill Gates is of the world and the Warren buffets and who is trying to reinvest into community right or spend down their wealth When we

look at it in the bad way. Right, We're looking at the Murdocks and the Koch brothers right well one of them now, who have been using their money and their power and their influence for bad How do we move from this space where they wield so much power to be able to decide do I want to be charitable today or do I want to be greedy tomorrow? Right? Like, we know, my question really is about how if you

had the opportunity to work inside of our government. Now we have a new administration, we have one that actually believes in equity. What are some of the steps that they can take at this moment where we are moving away from the philanthropic community to save us and we're looking back at our government institutions and agencies that were

created to do just that. Yeah, I mean, I think I do think we have to be careful about even giving them too much credit for the so called good things that they do, because you know, as you say in the book, I write a devote a chapter to education and specifically the school privatization movement and the you know, while somebody like Bill Gates has gotten a lot of positive press over the years for his investments in charter schools, what hasn't really been exposed is that the Koch brothers

and their network were investing heavily in a lot of the same organizations as Bill Gates. And and I you know what I what I say in the book is that I don't think Bill Gates's intentions were bad, but I do think that what he has done has been very, very destructive in ways that hasn't gotten enough to attention. And it's also contributed to somebody like Charles Cooke advancing a radical school voucher agenda that has taken hold in lots in lots of places around the country. In fact,

there's a major voucher bills right now in Florida. And so I think we have to be I think we have to be very careful about the enormous influence of extreme wealth in all aspects, regardless of whether we think it's you know, positive in one case or negative in another. But I would what I would say is that is that we need to in all aspects of these issues that I talk about, we need to get back to aligning our systems with the values and needs of the

people who are directly impacted. So you may think somebody may you know, one of your listeners may think it's a great idea to put a bunch of money into charter schools. Fine, but if that money is not being put in their neighborhood but in somebody else's neighborhood in a way that is not responsive to that community's history, that communities needs, that community's perspectives, then I would say

that that's, you know, unequivocally wrong. And since it's almost always black and brown communities that that's happening to, I would also say that that's racist. So if we are, if we're going to fix these problems, then we need to start structuring our systems so that you know, we're not making decisions about how black communities should be policed, right, Those communities should be able should have the right to

self determination around those decisions. We're not making decisions about how we're going to close down public schools and open up a bunch of schools in black and brown communities.

We're going to involve those folks in the decision. Right, how do we address the education debt that we owe to you through generations of neglect and under investment, Right, So, um, I think that's the biggest step that this administration and state governments and local governments around the country could make is Now, we're going to start partnering with you, We're going to start listening to you, and we're going to start utilizing our public investments in ways that are addressing

equity issues head on. It's not sort of an ancillary benefit of some universalized investment strategy. Now our priority is going to be repairing the harm and creating an equitable society. We've never done that at any level of government now everywhere, and so that's where I think that's where I think we have to move to. Yeah, I mean I think that we have to move to having the will as well.

I think that the great thing about your about your book is that it shows us very clearly in these three issue areas that we have been working in, and we have seen the problems become bigger and bigger and bigger with our criminal justice system, with our education system, and we're saying to ourselves, you know, we're in the midst of this pandemic, and millions of kids didn't even

have access to broadband, don't have computers at home. But we knew this a decade ago, right, And so when we think about the things that are a necessity in this country for living out your American dream, whatever that is. It's like the basics are not being met, and you know, we have to look at who is actually to blame for that, rather than becoming these crabs in a barrel that are fighting amongst ourselves for scraps when there are people that are literally eating high off the hog, literally

working and living off of our backs. I thank you so much for one taking the time to join willk F. But for this book, friends, the book is titled rich thanks to Racism. How the ultra wealthy profit from racial injustice. Jim, thank you so much for coming, and I hope that you'll join us again because this is a heavy weighty issue that I don't think that we pay enough attention to. Thank you so much, Danielle. I was great being with you as always, dear friends. Power to the people and

to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. See after Labor Day.