Reading, Writing, and Racism

you have to make that time. And so for me, dear friends here on woke F, I am going to be taking a much needed vacation so that I can rest and recharge as we head into what I believe is going to be one of the craziest falls we've

ever seen. I have left you with eight amazing episodes that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being, and a look inside frankly with some of the guests

that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get video episodes every single day because of their belief and financial support of woke F throughout the years, and so I'm really excited to bring all of you across all the platforms that you listen to woke F daily on these episodes and these interviews that I think will be

enticing to all of you. They hit on all of the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F, from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality, which my God and the need and the need and the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that have been thrown at us over the past couple of years.

And so, friends, while I will be out from the show, I will not be out of sight for the next several days, and so you can continue to follow me on Instagram and on Twitter at D two Cents, D E two c E n TF. Of course, I will be dropping in with my two cents and you can check me out on TikTok, where I'm sure certain that I will drop a few videos in the next couple of days, and there you can find me at Danielle Moody Underscore. I hope that you all enjoy these next

fantastic episodes that we have. Do drop your thoughts in the comments section, do hit me up in the socials. Just don't draw my attention to anything that is terrible because I'm taking a break from the news. But dear friends, I really do hope that you enjoy these next eight episodes and I will see you with brand new episodes after Labor Day. Indisputable with Doctor rashad Ricci is one of the latest shows on the TYT Network and also

the fastest growing news show in America. On his show, Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy dose of fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all the top news stories, focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics, police brutality, Karens, and much more. Listeners can also expect interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even biery debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics

in the Bullpen. It is an indisputable fact that you will love this show. Listen to Indisputable with Doctor rashad Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Hey, I'm David. Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all the noise

and the news. Each week, on the Gapfest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlona and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree, We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday, folks. I am so excited to be joined on woke F Daily with and I don't want to tell you this,

m Brieu. I am a former educator, and so I am super excited about about this conversation with doctor Bree Pickhauer, Associate professor at Montclair State University and the author of Reading, Writing and Racism, Disrupting Whiteness in Teacher, Education and the Classroom. Brie I'm so excited to have you here because you know, education has always been a part of the work that I do, whether it was when I was teaching in

the classroom. I was a first and second grade teacher and with children with special needs as well as general education. When I went to the Hill, I did so because I wanted to work on education policy. Now, as my life has unfolded, I still consider myself an educator. I just do it through different mediums. This book, Reading, Writing, and Racism. Talk to me about it and why now was the time for this kind of book? Well, thank you so much, and thank you for having me. I

don't think now was the time. I've been doing this work around racism and education for twenty years. This just so happened to be the time that this book came out of me. But I think that it, unfortunately is timely, because there's an awareness among white people, particularly as white educators and white people around beginning to recognize and do work on the way that they're enacting racism that they may not have been aware of or we may not

have been aware of previously. But that doesn't mean that that it wasn't there. It just means that suddenly an interest a little bit of a light bulb after the summer and after January sixth, it just so happened that the book is timely, But it wasn't meant to be. You know, I went through a My master's program for early childhood education was a very unique program because it was about unpacking your own racism, your own discrimination, understanding how you were taught and what not to bring into

the classroom as a teacher. And you know, my professors were so intentional about this program. It's called the U Team program at George Mason University, and they were so intent on how we unlearn discrimination, how we unlearn white supremacy. And it's something that I have often said is taught right,

like we teach white supremacy. And so you know what what kind of of I would ask, like what kind of pushback do you get when you're telling people like, oh, we're we're we're doing this work, but we have to like we have to undo this work in our classrooms. Like it isn't just it isn't just a you know, an exercise in like growth in our democracy, but it's like, how do we do that? Well, I'm so glad to hear that that was your experience, because it certainly isn't

the norm in teacher education programs. I think most teacher educators consider themselves specialists in the subject area that they're preparing people to teach. So I'm elementary education, my specialty of social study, so that's what I'm supposed to prepare people to do. Instead of thinking about that we are preparing a whole person that is going to be sitting in front of a whole room full of people. And that what teachers teach is not just their subject matter.

We teach our beliefs. And so if we're not giving our future teachers an opportunity to unpack what it is that they believe, particularly around race, then they're going to go in and teach mainstream, dominant racial ideology to their students.

And that's what the first part of my book is about, is the kind of racist curriculum that is going viral right now that is sort of seen as one off bad teachers or bad apples, but that really point to the permanence of racism and education because, like most of society, teachers have not necessarily done that deep work to understand they're the way that they think about race, the way

that they think about difference. You know, I've often believed, you know, we did such a grave disservice to everyone, not like not just teachers when we say and oh, you know, be blind to race, right, like, let's let's let's ignore it, let's tolerate it, right. I I grew up in a in a schooling system that was ninety

six percent white. I was the only black kid all most of the time in my in my classes, and that wasn't acknowledged and by like, by the not acknowledging it, it was like it was it was, you know, a way to basically say you need to assimilate, right, like you are supposed to assimilate to be like everybody else, and that the uniqueness and the experiences that you're bringing into this place, we don't care. Yeah. Yeah, And it's such a you know for teachers that sort of with

pride have that I don't see a color. I see blue, purple, yellow. You know, it's really based in a deficit notion of people of color when you hear white teacher say that, because what they're what they're saying is if I acknowledge your race, then there's something negative that I'm doing. There's

some reason why I'm not supposed to notice it. And if I'm not supposed to notice it, it must be because there's something wrong with it, and so there's this fear that in actual really what I think is underneath that is a fear of being called racist. You know, that's a fear underneath a lot of white teachers, and

so they espouse this race evasive kind of mentality. I've been moving away from color blind because I'm trying to move away, I know, and I actually when you just I know, and when you just said race a vase, I'm like, oh, that's a better that's a better term. Right. Yeah, we've been working on that one in the field for a while. Um, But I think that it's it's really

what's under underneath that is deficit understandings about race. I a student once who was like, well, it's not that I don't want to acknowledge their race, but I also, you know, I don't want to be making assumptions. It's like, what is the assumption you're afraid that you're making. What was the assumption that they were afraid that they were making. Well, it was actually very confusing when she actually started to talk about when she started to get into it, she

had a lot of confusion around race period. I Mean, there's so much right beneath the surface you know, she started talking about how, well, if she gets a tan, then she's darker than some of her students, and so I think she was wondering if that if she's still white. I mean, it was Look, this stuff is unexamined and it's wet, and so if we're not giving them a place to talk about this, then the classroom is the

place where they're experimenting. And we see the results of what that looks like when we see these pieces of curriculum that are around it. You know, as recent as three days ago, there was a curriculum out of Wisconsin around um. I think that the words were something like that, something about an escaped slave yep, and the punt and

how would you how I could? I like, for the life of me, Bree, when these stories come out, I'm like, how how I know that teachers sit down and they plan out their week, they plan out their unit, and I'm thinking to myself, how how did something like that happen? And that's where this book came out of, really was I was just I started collecting these examples like this because I have students who don't white, students who don't necessarily believe that racism is still a problem at least

prety fifth president. I'm like pre insurrection and you know, the sort of post racial. So I had started collecting these examples show no, this actually is a problem. And so after some point it it got beyond the shock value and the disturbing value of them, and I really started to question, you know, these aren't anomalies, These aren't

going anywhere, and so what is their function? How are these examples actually functioning to a maintain white supremacy and be teach the next generation dominant ideology without them necessarily even knowing the history. How is it still teaching the mainstream ideas around grace to the next generation. How is

it reinvesting in whiteness? And so that's really where the book started, was to analyze these examples to move past the like disturbing shock value, to see that these actually do have a purpose, and their purpose is to maintain racial hierarchies. What do your students say when you present

that truth? Because they you know, what I want to say is that I don't necessarily believe that all white teachers think one like, think about upholding white supremacy, right, but it's almost you are upholding something that you are willingly ignoring And so how when your face like, literally, what I feel like your work does is it holds up a mirror. Right, which your work does is hold up a mirror and has us stop instead of looking at these stories as these one offs, right, look at

the pattern and look at what it's producing. Right, Like you you you teach this, So how do you like when you hold up the mirror? What is the response to you to them to saying like, by doing this work, you are upholding this incredible, believe violent system. Yeah, well, it depends and I found that it mainly depends on not what someone comes into the program believing, but really

how open are they to having this conversation. So there are definitely students that respond with resistance, and I think that, you know, over the twenty years that I've been doing this, I've learned how to navigate that a little bit better so that I see less of that. But there is resistance.

Sometimes there's like an openness to it. Some of them really start questioning and doing that deep examination, and then some of them are just like about it, you know, as soon as they hear it, they're like, yes, I get this, what's my responsibility, now what do I need to do differently? So it's really a range and and it's been a surprise and an interest to me that it isn't about how much are you already thinking about this coming in? It's really how reflective are you willing

to be? Do you find that there is a difference in reception to this based on is it elementary or high school or middle school teachers? Like, is there is there a variance there? Well, I'm an elementary person at heart, but I codirect a program now that's K twelve, and

I don't think so. I mean, I think that high school teachers generally tend to come in with a little bit more understanding of the intellectual nature of education, whereas elementaries teachers often come in because they love children, and so it takes a little bit more to push to say, okay, but it's not just about like picking apples and making apple sauce, and like we're actually going to engage young

people in these critical conversations. They can do, they can handle it, whereas I think high school teachers know that that's what they signed up for. Um. But you know, it really depends on the person and the person's willingness to go deep. You know, it's funny you're now remembering, um, the few white women that were in my master's of education program, and they were really unhappy with the way that it was being taught, right, Like, they because of

literally what you just said. I want to become an early childhood educator because I love children and I want, you know, to to play and I want to create like this playful you know environment for them, Like why are you talking to me about race and racism? Right?

And like it was this it was this feeling that they didn't want to be told to feel to like, they didn't want to be perceived as bad, right, and so it was like an order for me not to be perceived as bad, not to be perceived as racist, then I have to block all of this out, yes, and I just like people, right, Like that was all you know, that was kind of the pushback and you know, and the field the sentiment that the professors would would provide.

It's like, right, but you're teaching all kinds of people. They're not they're not going to stay children forever, like they're growing into adults, adults, right, Like you're training adults like you know, like and I and I don't think I think it was very much lost on them. Yeah, And I think that there's also this idea that if I don't veer into this sort of anti racist social justice curriculum, then I'm just being neutral, like yes and not.

And so for a lot of elementary teachers, they're scared to sort of, you know, teach a more critical history, even you know, the quintessential examples Christopher columb Right. And so if I teach the teach the perspective of the Tino indigenous people, then I'm being political. But if I teach the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria, then

I'm being neutral. But actually you're not. You're you're glorifying the history of polonization and you're ignoring the genocide and the violence of what Columbus actually did and what he set the stage for. And so I think teachers just think that that maintaining the status quo means that I'm not being political, But it's extra and it's all and it's all inherently political exactly right, like the way the way that the way that history has been set up,

the way that we teach is inherently political. Who you decide to say is you know, even in music class, I can remember, like, who you are anointing as the music that children have to learn, right, Like is white men. So it's like and the icons that you're saying are these inventors and what have you? Are white men? So it's like, so, how do you break through? How do

you break through that? Like? That is it is all pull because the purpose I have said this forever, the purpose of our public education system is to uphold white supremacy. Like that that is the purpose of it. What do you want because I think that your book, it's it's not just for teachers, it's for parents, right, it's for anybody that that interacts with kids, right, Like, how do

you how do you break this system? What are the tools you know that if a parent is or you know, a teacher obviously is picking up this book, what are some of the tools that they can get to help to help start to help start the process. Because it is a process. It's not going to be one and done. It's not like I read this book and now I'm

an anti No, it is a it's a practice. Yeah, And I think that the one of the strengths of the books is that it uses a framework that is really very popular and anti racism work now, which is the four Eyes that look at how individual, interpersonal m sorry, individual, internalized,

institutional and ideological oppression work together. And so while it may seem from the book that an individual can take things away and reflect on their own socialization around race, the solution is not an individual one, because, as you said that, it's the institution of education that's upholding white supremacy, and teachers are very unique because they are right in the matrix. They're right in the middle of all four

of these systems of oppression. They're upholding institutional racism through their own individual racism. And so we can't just try to change individual teachers, even though it seems like that's

what I'm doing. But I'm arguing that the institution of deeper education, the institution of education that's providing professional development and training for educators, needs to shift to do this deep examination work because that's the only way that we're actually going to see changes and not only curriculum, but

in relationships in classroom, community, and school policy. Is when everyone is doing that work, we're no longer working to uphold racist systems, we might be working together to dismantle them, right, and that can't happen if on large scales we're not

supporting that kind of that kind of exercise. You know, I want to ask you another question before I let you go, which is that you know it's a Black History month, right, and usually you know, in amal in normal times, in schools all over the country plastered with Martin Luther King posters and Rosa parks and this stent and the other thing, there is an intention, an intentionality,

even if a superficial one around this month. What do you think about black history being like a curriculum for February but then not incorporated at all the other eleven months of the year. Yeah, for kids they have like it makes I mean it could It should be a yes, aunt right, it should be. It's incorporated throughout the year, and we're going to pay special attention to it now, but not that we're going to segregate it into this

one month. And again, if teachers are not doing this kind of examination, white teachers are not doing this examination, it's still going to be taught in a deficit, problematic way that focuses a only on I saw a post the other day on Facebook that was chadow slavery isn't a chadow slavery is not black history. It's white history, right,

but it's taught as black history, right damn. And so all of the ways in which white people have oppressed, marginalized, and and done all of the atrocities that we have done to black people is white history, black resistance, black invention, black joy. That's Black history. And that's not how it's framed. That's not how it's taught in schools, um and it's and it's when it is taught, it's often being taught

through that deficit dominant ideology. So you know, Rosa Parks was tired, or we're going to Martin Luther King, how to tream? Isn't that nice? Not about his anti capitalists, anti war, you know, speaking truth to the white moderate. That's not what's getting taught during Black History when teachers haven't examined that. So that's why I'm saying we can't tinker with curriculum. We need to do deep excavation to teachers racial ideology, and that's what will change curriculum. You

are doing the Lord's work, Bree, You really are. I appreciate you so much. Folks. The book is reading, writing and racism, disrupting whiteness in teacher education and the classroom. Bree, you have got to come back to wokaf because this conversation could go on for the longest, because I think that it is the most important work to do. Like, if we're to break with the abuse and cycle of white supremacy, then you have to start with education. It is the only place to start. Well, it was my

pleasure anytime. Thank you so much for having me as always, dear friends. Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. See after Labor Day.