Polyamory 102 with Dr. Jenn M. Jackson

educate my curious listeners. This time, I also invited their husband, Darren Jackson, who co hosts their podcast That Black Couple, to talk about his experience as a monogamous, asexual person in a relationship with a polyamorous queer person. I ended up getting more than I bargained for, as Jen's live in partner, Tia jumped on the couch and joined them

for what became a nearly hour long symposium. So today I bring you a juicy morsel of that thought provoking session about living as a polyamorous black person in the twenty first century. What is it like to raise three children and a polyamorous household with a married couple and a third partner. Listen in and find out. I think that it is always important whenever I'm talking about various

topics on woke, app to have an explainer, right. And what was interesting to me Jen when we first spoke was the differentiation between polyamory monogamy, what it means to have a nesting partner versus other partners, what it means to show up in these different spaces. Now, these are I guess labels, but I almost I see them as explainers if in fact, you want to explain or describe your relationship. So can you all explain your dynamic again and then we can jump into, you know, even deeper

conversation about kids and parenting and all of that. Yeah. I mean, Darren and I met our first day of moving at the University of Southern California in two thousand and two. So I have known this person for more than half of my life at this point, and we just took to each other. You know, we were not romantic. We just kind of were drawn to each other. We

like the same music, we like the same food. We couldn't stand the same people together, and you know, we found the same things generally annoying, and so that bonded us together in a way where we said, you know, regardless of what this looks like, we want to be in each other's lives forever. If it's a romantic thing, if it's parenting, if it's family, whatever it is, we want to do it together. And that was a commitment

that we had from the beginning. I was always Polly, I was always queer, so I was kind of confused, like, well, you're a boy. I remember saying that a lot to him, like, hey, but you're a boy. Sociers know this is going to get a little dicey for me, and you know, we decided to trust ourselves and trust our bodies and let our lives move in the ways that felt natural to us. And so we wanted to get married, and I for the first time in my life, I was like, I

think I want to have kids with someone. And he was the only person I've ever in my life wanted to raise a family with. And so, you know, I have a hard condition. I was told I could never have kids. I had open heart surgery and they said, well you can. I said great, because I found the perfect person right, And so we have three children, and you know, we are now at a stage where we have a business together. We are raising a thirteen year old,

nine year old and seven year old. We have a home together, we have you know, jobs, and we are nested. We build a life together. We do life together. We build life together. But I also am now the point where I have someone I consider my wife for my future wife, and I want to also now build life with her. And that was something I didn't think was possible. Darren is monogamous, and you can you can also talk everyone. I don't want to interrupt you. I mean, I don't

know when we get a break, you know. Yeah, yeah, I am a monogamous and I think I've come a long way, and even defining what monogamy is, I think, just like polyamory, monogamy is different for everybody. I'm someone who, in various conversations have said, well, maybe I could be polyamorous in another life, but in this life that I'm living, I don't have the band with the attention, the energy, you know, so on and so forth to maintain more

than one relationship with an individual. And I identify as a monogamous person. But I think our dynamic is also interesting because I am also a sexual at the same time, so I am not interested at this point in my life in the sexual interactions. That doesn't mean that we're not romantic, platonic, loving, building life together, like you've said, but that is not an aspect that is important to me.

And so I think what we've done in our relationship that's been very powerful and very important is we've had, you know, decades long conversations about what we each want, what's important to us, what isn't important to us, and we have kind of meshed together to make our lives work for each other, and we've also been there for each other as those things shift and change. So I don't think at any point have we looked at each other and said, you're not allowed to change who you

are away what's important to you. If tomorrow things changed, it doesn't mean, you know, there's a boundary that you're not allowed to cross, and you're now crossing it and that now ends everything. It means now we have a conversation,

and that's I think. You know, historically everyone says that about relationships, it's all about communication, and I feel like that's that much more important when polyamorant is a part of the equation because you do have to have those open lines of communication and understanding with one another to make sure that everyone's needs are met. One of the things that I want to ask go back to Jen, it's mentioning a wife and somebody else that you are

wanting to or are currently sharing your life with. What does that look like when you when you, oh, shit, we could have done a three. I'm very safe. You might want I told her you might want her to come in and say, hey, I may, I may. How did that evolve in what does this look like? And then I want to go into how you talk to your kids? Yeah, so you know, I've always been Polly. You know, I've never understood monogamy for me, I've always

even back to like high school. For me, I felt drawn to lots of different people, and I felt lots of different energies. It was hard for me when people would make me choose and I didn't like it, and so I would just opt out. The moment somebody said you can't be with this person or you can't I was like, okay, I'm out. I would literally just dip out. Some people say this because I'm a virgo. I know

it's because I'm poly. And what that has meant is that, you know, for me specifically, I was also very closeted all growing I'm really very religious. Um. I was not allowed to express the parts of me that are masculine

and androgynist. Um. I was always kind of encouraged to be I'm six four and I've been six four since I was twelve, so it was like, you're gonna be a model, and you're gonna be all this stuff, and it wasn't the encouragement to be like leaning too the parts of you dinner and drowg like I feel very Grace Jones, I don't feel Cindy Crawford. Here' she got can we make room? Come on, baby jacket, come on baby, Hi. Hi, that's to you cha. I'm Danielle. This is thank you

so much for bopping in. Well, oh welcome. Fuck yeah. No. So basically, you know, I think for me, it was around the time I was in college where I was like, yeah, I'm queer and I kind of started to really accept it,

but I still wasn't out. I was very very much closeted, and in terms of you know, what it looks like building a life with Tia, same thing that I talked about with Darre And it's like we dream together, like we have dreams of having a compound or farm and where we you know, do work together, where we train folks on self care and polyamory and going back to the land and taking back our bodies from the world

that's tried to claim us. And like, for me, it's like we've connected in that way and I've chosen to lean into it and to let it do what it wants to do. Very similar to what I was just talking about with Darren, Like I don't know how it's gonna look, and I don't need to know how it's gonna look. I don't need to have all the answers. But it felt natural, you know, and I was like, hey, let's just move in together, you know, like let's just be a family. And it felt right and everyone works.

And I think it's one of those things where because we're so wrapped up in cultural normativity about what should be and who is allowed to experience joy, and also we have so much trauma where when things are going well, we wait for the other shooter drop and I say, we because I'm we girl, I'm we okay, so that where I am you are when we are we. But look, but also when things are good, we spend so much time afraid about what's going to happen that we don't

get to just sit and enjoy. And so I think what we're all trying to work on not speaking on the other time, um, but like it's just really sitting with like this is good and we are happy, um, and we are building a life that allows each of us to really go after what it is that we want for ourselves. And so that's kind of how all this, I mean should be copy in my hair color though. I mean, y'all look cute and like twins to tell

me you all everybody now lives together? Yes, okay, Tia, introduce yourself, and then I want to know how long have ye you that? Are you Polly? Are you monogamous? And how does how has this been functioning? Cious? Sure? So I'm Tia originally from Jersey of Jamaican descent, So okay, yeah, um yeah, I've been Polly for maybe the past three four years. I'm getting up there on the right a little Polly. And it started out for me is just

reimagining what it meant to have a successful relationship. I was like, if I want to do relationships or marriage, what would that look like for me? So I started with the idea of living a part together from like RuPaul and his partner, and I was like, oh, so people can I was like, you can love somebody and not want to live with them, like if you have a messy partner, and being able to love somebody on

their terms because I am a neat freak. So that was something that was like a big kicker for me. And then it started to be like a more imagining like ethical nonmonogamy, and then reading up more about that, like The Ethical Slut was a really good book with that. So just kind of like going down the trail and like slowly just making the journey for myself. So polyamory really was just like a natural progression for me. But

I think I've always understood. I was like, I think we should just be honest about like if we like other people, but not understanding what that meant in a monogamous kind. I was like, and then like your partner would be like, oh, well, I don't know. I don't know if I can trust you with my truth. If I'm attracted to other people, I don't know if I

can trust you with my truth. If there are things that have changed for me in our relationship, and it felt like a safer way to be more honest in relationships and to really build it on trust and just more intentionality than anything else. So you have three kids, yeah, and everybody is living in the house, three whole other

human beings. Yeah, tell me about how you have this open conversation and about what you think that you all the three of you are teaching them about relationships, about love, about connectivity. Anybody can anybody can start. So our prefaces by saying, we have raised these kids very intentionally from the beginning to really want them to be their own people and whatever that means, but also being very open and honest and transparent about how we move through life

and who we are as people. We also check in with them, probably too much, but we're always checking in on them to make sure they're okay, to ask if they have any questions, to you know, openly and honestly answer those questions. And so as things have changed over the years, as different dynamics have come into play, as we've moved and been in different situations, right, We've always checked in with them and say, hey, are you okay? It's something bothering you? What do you like? But do

you not like? And so I think that once again, the open lines of communication have been really great with us and raising our kids. And that doesn't mean we don't have fears or concerns or worries and doubts, right, and all those things that do appear. But as Tia has moved in, we have you know, checked in with them and made sure they're okay, see if they have any questions, both privately one on one and then also

as a group. And to be honest, I've been very proud and happy and how honestly, they've really been unmoved really because my my fear and my thought and my expectation was there would be concerns and be questions, that'd be worried that, you know, all these things that we would have to deal with. And really, seriously, it's been like we're good change. My daughter. The first thing she asked, is going to move in? She said, does she like crafts? And I was like, I just told you a whole

human is moving in. And she was like I said what I said because we had already met at them right, they weren't want to be and saw some things. I mean, I want to say a couple of things. I think the first is that you know, we did not they're not When we talked about having a family, because it's so important to me, it was something I was told I would never be allowed to do that. My body could not do it, but I was told that I would never be allowed to do it, right, like I

would never because of my heart condition. And so I was like, if I ever have children, it's gonna be like I'm so serious about this, and I'm like, I want to raise these free black children. You know, my childhood was really rough, and you know, I was coming out of like surviving multiple sexual assaults and having issues with being abused by family members and things like that, and so for me, it was like, if we're gonna

do this, we're gonna do this. And so I was intense I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie or whatever. But when we decided to start a family, I was like, we're gonna raise free black children. We're never gonna tell them who they are. We're gonna ask them who they are, and like we're gonna give them all the options. I don't want to force them into any religion. I don't want to force them into any idea unities. I don't

let them tell us who they are. I want to meet our children, and you know, it was important to us to debunk these myths about how you have to be when they would come home and say, oh, those are boy clothes or those are girl clothes or boy toys or or whatever. Like we've always had conversations around gender. And then I remember one point my daughter was like, you know, she would catch us on pronoun She's like, you do not other person's gender do not? She heard them.

I'm like, you're right, you know, like we were very good about saying like we don't, we don't have to be one way. And so we've done that since they were born, and you know, they've seen me evolved through you know, queerness and how my polyage shows up in the world, and so this is like not new for them to the point where sometimes I feel like they're bored,

and it is they are. I tell them something like yeah, mom, we know, like you're a whole professor, like and you know, it's one of those things where like I just wish people would trust children more, specifically black. Yeah, you know, Black childrens to the nexus of so many identities and experiences, and we don't trust them to understand the world, and they get it more than so many adults. So I mean,

my children. I sometimes feel sad that I don't want to leave my house because the people in my house are so wonderful. My kids, we have so much fun and like they are so brilliant and amazing, So they haven't. Our conversations with them have been more you know, just kind of seeking more wisdom and understanding and making sure that they have clarity than anything else. But they are very much like we're a family and people here love us and they feel the unconditional love and that's what

matters to them. And they haven't felt threatened or unsafe, the routines not changing, like there's nothing that has signaled to them that their lives are in threat or peril. And I think that's what kids are worried about, right. They're worried, like, is this going to materially affect the quality of my life? And what they're saying is actually things are funner and better, so they're good, you know.

And I think people have to look that stuff more and let kids really take their time to work through their experiences in ways that they have the expert knowledge to do, because they actually do they do it. It's funny because I think that there has always been this desire and as a former teacher, I recognize this very clearly, that there's always this desire to protect children from what

adults believe will somehow rob them of their childhood. And there is a protection as opposed to a guidance that is there, right, like how do you learn? You learn through exposure? Right, and how do you you know? And how are you feeling about these things? Well, then we discuss them, right, and we discuss what's coming up for you. And if you shield, if you cover up, then where

is the learning. The learning isn't just how to navigate through this, you know, false idea of perfection or or non struggle like, oh, I don't want my kids to struggle, Well, how are they going to develop, you know, resilience, Like I'm confused about how you back them to have grit and resiliency when you don't expose them to shit, you know, and I'm not a parent, but I have seen how that is detrimental to like when you go into raising

children as opposed to raising people. I feel like that's where the problem comes, is that they're not going to be children for forever. They're going to they are people belong to themselves. Correct, they belong to themselves. Our responsibility is not to keep them and to possess them. It's to teach them how to belong to themselves and how to be responsible for themselves and to be here to witness it. I see myself as a witness. I'm like, this is so cool. Like they do stuff and I'm like,

that's a new word. Hi five. Like I just think that they're interesting. I would insulate things for other people. So, like the other day, one of the kids was in school and we were kind of being loud adults and we were like kids, we're like making out of their kiden orselves. They're like, sorry, that's just my two moms doing stuff. They're like, it's okay, continue on with the math. Lesson.

Sorry I'd say a little over here, but it's you know, it gives them language because now they have to translate what they're seeing they're like, well, for you, this might mean this. So they're giving other people language for how they can interpret what is happening even in their household. I mean, it was one of the confirmations for me, like aside from like meeting Darren and I was like, oh,

you're a cool human, you know. It was just like the kids were confirmation that I was like, oh, this is the person that you say you are, because kids are often a reflection of their seeing that. You know, these were just human beings that were living their best free lives. They had opinions and thoughts, they had their own politics, they were free to express themselves, and it was like everything that you said was also true. So

it's like confirmation come to fruition. So that was one of the things that I was like, Oh, this is my person. Like we go together now. Woke. F is a space to get you woke to all facets of life. And that is why I have these conversations about sexuality and queerness, because these are important aspects of our lives that mainstream society would prefer we simply not talk about.

Later in our discussion, Jen Darante and I dissect the Red Table Talks episode about polyamory, and we break down the age gap in how non traditional sexualities and relationships are perceived by older people versus millennials and the next generation who are coming into adulthood. To hear the full hour of my three way interview with these amazing intellectual polyamorous peeps, head over to patreon dot com slash woke

f and support this show. By joining woke f Nation, you'll get access to hundreds of past shows, including my very first interview with the incredible doctor Jen M. Jackson, and who knows, this may not be the last time you hear from them. Whether I see you next on Patreon in the tweets, or on Instagram at D two cents, or here on this weekly podcast. Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.