Perception is BS

upcoming interview with our friend Glenn Kirshner. You know, this entire time that we've been talking about the insurrection, talk about this white domestic terrorist mob that overtook our Capitol building, that killed police officers, beat them, cursed them, you know, destroyed property at the behest of Donald Trump. In my mind, I'd been thinking that, you know, these people, they don't believe in democracy. They just want authoritarianism and fascism, and

that's why they went to the Capitol building. But then the third hearing and I had a lightbulb moment because the third hearing was all about the fact that Donald Trump wanted to cause harm to his vice president. Donald Trump sent that mob to the Capitol Building not to just disrupt quote unquote the vote count, No, the certification, excuse me of the election. No, No, he sent them to the Capitol Building to disrupt his vice president by

any means necessary. When you hear that Donald Trump, as his goons were saying, hang Mike Pence, that his reaction

to that was maybe they should. And hearing that, Mark Meadows then walks out of the office all fucking shook, as if he didn't know who the fuck he was dealing with, that he didn't know Donald Trump as a mobster, that he didn't know that he wants power for power's sake, and that like the rule of law, murder, whatever it is that you need to do in order to hold on to that power, this motherfucker was willing to do

so for me. I'm like, oh shit. This mob scene outside and inside of the Capitol Building wasn't just about stopping Congress from certification. It was particularly targeted at stopping Mike Pence because Mike Pence had finally declared that one person was not going to hand over the presidency to another person, that that is not how America works, it's not how democracy worked, and that he knew, much like fucking Donald Trump knew and everybody around him knew that

this motherfucker lost the election. Right, so you lost the election. You've tried every which way until this moment in order to get these votes thrown out. Do these motherfucking recounts? And what did everybody tell you that when we're talking about recounts, you're talking about hundreds of votes, not making up ten thousand plus. That just doesn't happen. So in hindsight, now I'm sitting back and I'm like, this motherfucker tried

to kill you, and you ain't say boo. The fact that Mike Pence didn't want to get into the car for a couple of reasons, and this is the thing that I really hope gets unpacked at some point. Mike Pence didn't want to get into the car to take him and his staff away to safety because One, he didn't want to have that image of the vice President of the United States fleeing the Capitol Building. So I get that, right, because that message that would have been

sent there not great, not great. Two, he told his own secret service person, I don't know who's driving that car, now what Glenn and I surmise and this conversation is that he knew exactly who was driving that car, right, it's the same person that brought him there, and it's probably the same person that drives him around all the time. But what can be inferred from that statement is that

I don't know who's in charge. Am I going to end up in somebody's alasco or am I going to end up, as Glenn will say later, in somebody's cement boots. The fact of the matter is that the reality that we're even having this conversation isn't just about how far off the rails Donald Trump had gone. It's how far

off the rails Donald Trump has always been. And so when these people had the audacity to say, well I was on team normal and they were on team crazy, We're like the rest of us are like, so, wait, were you not around the entire four years? Because the ship that you all were doing purposefully blowing up political norms right like the way in which Donald Trump was governing and admonishing staff via tweet, threatening nuclear war via tweet,

like talking about alternative facts? What part of fucking normal did you think that this was? You don't get to rebrand yourself in the aftermath that we're still all fucking spinning from talking about you were the grown up in the room, bitch, when right, you'all were crazy. You got behind a fucking TV reality host who everybody in New York has known, has been a motherfucking drifter, right, A liar and a cheat and a tax evader, a cheater in multiple ways, right, a sexual assaulter, and just an

all around piece of shit human. You knew this and you got on the Trump train because y'all want power, and you believe in power for power's sake, not power to do good, not power to do right, just power

to oppress and power to do harm. So don't talk to us now after the fact, when you realize just how far Donald Trump and company were willing to go that now you want to catch yourself in the eleventh hour talking about, oh, we were on team normal, bitch missed me with it, right, No one should be falling for that bullshit, just like the tap dance that William Barr was doing in all of his interviews, talking about,

Oh this is bullshit and these people crazy. You got on CBS Bill Barr and you said you didn't give a fuck about your legacy. Right, you did all of Donald Trump's bidding, particularly what you should be going down for what you won't because this Department of Justice just don't got that teeth and that backbone and that swagger

to actually get shit done. But when Bill Barr stood up before the American people and lied about the contents of the Malla Report, you showed us just how far you were willing to go for trump Ism and the Trump train. So you don't get to turn around in the eleventh that we're talking about. Oh that's why I left, bitch, You left two weeks before the next president came in.

Shut up. I just you know the audacity, right, the audacity of these people to try and recharacterize themselves as somebody's patriot, as somebody is like believer right of democracy and the rule of law. Like, oh, that line seems too far for you to break, bitch. You crossed at least a thousand before we got to the insurrection point, and all along you kept saying, no, that's good, that's good. So here we are, folks, halfway through, halfway through these

public hearings. We now know that the Department of Justice has signaled once again and this time even more with firmness that they want all the documents, They want the transcripts to all the over one thousand interviews that the Sixth Commission has done over the past twelve months. And my question is, why did you all wait? What were you waiting for? You knew that we were having public hearings in June, So I'm confused about why you're asking

for the motherfucking transcripts. Now, you could have asked for that ship back in January when we had hit the year anniversary of the insurrection and the Department of Justice show no signs of doing that a fucking thing. And at that time this Commission had already been working, so we can say, oh, well, they didn't want perception in this that the other thing. Perception is bullshit. We all know Donald Trump as a criminal, and he's still walking

around on the streets. So why is it that we, when going after criminals, have to make sure that we got all our eyes and cross all of our teas. I'm just confused by the dumble standard that we're all

the only ones living under. Nonetheless, coming up next, my conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner to unpack the latest one six Insurrection hearing to discuss John Eastman and the fact that that motherfucker is headed to federal prison, and wondering whether or not anyone is going to subpoena Jinny Thompson instead of peacefully and nicely requesting her to come before the committee and lie straight to our faces. That

and much more is coming up next. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer

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Person of the Week, and much more. Listen to The Damage Report on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Folks, each week, whenever I get the opportunity to be joined by our friend Glenn Kirshner, MSNBC Legal Analyst and the host of Justice Matters to discuss the latest in legal news, I'm excited. I'm excited this week, Glenn, for a couple of reasons. We are now at the third installment of the one

six Committee hearings. So far, I think that they have been doing a good job of their roll out. What do you what, I want to get a sense of your feelings around the bombshells before we go into specifics that were dropped in in this week's third installment. You know, they keep sort of tightening the investigative circle around Donald Trump. He has committed criminal acts. He has absolutely no argument that he didn't have criminal intent when he was committing

those acts. They have wiped all of that away, and now they went after his co conspirator, Don Eastman. And you don't have to take my word for it that John Eastman is a co conspirator of Donald Trump's because of federal judge in California, David Carter, has ruled that they acted together in a conspiracy to commit crimes against the United States and to obstruct an official proceeding the

certification of Joe Biden's win. So I was still surprised at the nature of the incriminating evidence that they presented about John Eastman. I mean, it's mind blowing that a lawyer not only put together a treasonous memo setting out how to orchestrate a coup, but he acknowledged in some of his emails that, look, I know this is kind of against the law, but just a little bit against the law, the Electoral count Act. And then I mean,

as if you thought it couldn't get any crazier. After the riot, he said, look, can we just break the law a little bit more? Because we ought to be all in to kill our democracy. At this point, he was undeterred by the violence that had unfolded at the Capitol. He was still pushing the coup. And then to top it all off, he said, oh, by the way, I'm really going to need a pardon. So that just screams

consciousness of guilt. He knows he committed a crime and the only way he could get away with it is if his corrupt co conspirator, Donald Trump issued him a presidential pardon. John Eastman, will, I mean, he must be tried, convicted, and end up in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. There's just no two ways about it, after everything we've learned about his conduct. You know, let's just clear up the obvious, right, if I'm innocent, if I'm a person that is above board,

do I casually send out emails? Would you send out an email that says, hey, that pardon parade still happening, because I'd like to jump in. Is that something, Glenn, as a thirty year federal prosecutor, that you would ever just happen in your breast pocket be walking around with

a presidential pardon just in case. No, only people who believe they've committed crimes request pardons, And the Supreme Court has said that offering a pardon is some indication that the person committed a crime, and accepting a pardon is some admission of guilt by the pardon recipient. Now, those principles haven't been tested all that directly in court, but

let me tell you not to get sidetracked. If New York State prosecutes Steve Bannon for the state crimes that arose from his bogus we build the Wall scheme by which he stole money from Donald Trump supporters, Donald Trump pardoned him federally. If I were the prosecutor, you bet I would introduce that pardon as evidence that Steve Bannon knew he committed and because he accepted that pardon, that equals an admission of guilt, and let the judges sort

that out. But you absolutely have to start making these arguments in the court. So let me tell you what I thought was the most interesting thing that came out of the third hearing. It hadn't occurred to me, Glenn, and you and I've been talking now for god like two years, right like every week, and it had really hadn't occurred to me until it was laid out by the Committee that Donald Trump really did send that mob to attack his vice president. It wasn't in my mind.

And tell me if it was illuminated for you, But in my mind, I was just like, Oh, these people, these mobsters, these terrorists, they're breaking in to our capital building. They just want to ransack democracy. They want to you know, they want to upset this election. But this is not what the Committee drove home on with the third hearing.

It was really about expressly painting the picture that it was Donald Trump who sent his legions of folks, including the oath Keeper and Proud Boy militia, to go get his vice president. That as the vice president was evacuated into that bunker, Donald Trump was still tweeting that he was weak, that he needed to stand up for his country. So it was that always illuminated for you? Or do you? Was that brought to clearer a clearer picture after listening

to this hearing. I think it comes into sharper and sharper focus as we continue to learn more. You know, I think one of the tipping points for me, Danielle was when we heard the reporting as maybe some weeks ago, that Mark Meadows came out of an Oval Office meeting during the attack on the Capitol and he appeared to be shaken and he said, you know, Trump just said maybe Mike Pence should be hanged. And we're going to

hear more evidency. I think the investigative circle and the presentation of evidence continues to tighten around Trump because I think what We're going to begin to hear are some of Trump's direct communications to his DOJ officials when he tried to get them to weaponize the Department of Justice to do his nefarious bidding. Then we're gonna hear about statements he was making, an acts he was taking during the insurrection itself. We're going to see photographs, maybe even

here some recordings. I don't know, but I think the circle tightens more and more and more and more. But when we heard that reporting that Donald Trump was angry, he was upset because Mike Pence was being whisked too safety and then he said maybe Mike Pence should be hanged. I also think we're going to get more about the direct connection between the Proud Boys Oathkeepers, and the White

House and Trump. And I think those are still some blockbuster revelations that are going to come, and you know, there will be nothing left for the Department of Justice

to do but indict Eastman, Trump and the others. You know, I got to tell the other thing that came up, and I was watching the MSNBC kind of reflection, the special reporting there after what you know, they're the big panel, and Nicole Wallace said something too that took me, took me aback, and she said, Mike Pence told his secret service person I believe his name is Tim, that he wasn't getting in the car because he trusted that secret service person. But he said, you're not driving the car.

We don't know if Mike Pence was afraid to being whisked away to Mars right, or something else a lot more nefarious. What did you interpret from that as well? So there are two ways we can interpret the statement I don't know who's driving the car, because think about this, he actually probably did know was physically driving the car in which he was transported to the Capitol and would have been transported from the Capitol. I assume it would

have been part of his usual security detail. So when he said, look, I'm not leaving because I don't know I don't know who's driving the car to me, that could also mean I don't know who's in control of everything right now. And you know what, Trump may have arranged to take me somewhere out in the meadowlands and fit me for some cement shoes. I mean, yes, that sounds hyperbolic, does it. But when the president says maybe he should be hanged, maybe my supporters got it right.

You know, he could have ended up in the metal lands. I you know, it is the picture that has painted for me is just what a mobster Donald Trump is, and that he was looking for anybody right that was going to answer the call to how to get this done by any means necessary. So you had this group that wanted to dub themselves Team Normal, which there was no actions that this administration took from the beginning until the end that should have ever been deemed as normal. Right.

They broke every political norm that you could possibly ever think of. But then you had Team Coup, right, who believed in their minds that they are somehow somebody's patriot, that they're willing to take whatever is given so long as they keep their person in power. And so what does that say, Glenn about now? They're only halfway done. The House Commission is only halfway done in terms of

the public hearings. The Department of Justice now has said, in no uncertain terms, give us all of your documents otherwise you're impeding. And a criminal investigation that was released you know as well, what are these things add up for you? And what should we be extracting from this

back and forth that we are seeing. So yeah, I've got the letter here from the Department of Justice to Tim Heafy, one of my former RICO co council from the US Attorney in DC, Matt Graves and Matt Olson, who was also on the same RICO cases with Tim and I. What I take away from this is a couple of things. I think most importantly, The Department of Justice is in the grand jury investigating the insurrection, and

they have been for a very long time. They make clear in this letter something we all know, at least those of us who come from the Department of Justice. That because the grand jury proceedings are secret by law, nobody knows what witnesses have gone into the grand jury. But as the letter makes clear, there's obviously lots of overlap between what DJ is investigating and what J six

is investigating and what THEOJ is saying. I actually see this as a healthy back and forth between two coequal branches of government with both with both branches flexing their coequal muscle. And I can tell you how I think it ought to play out. But if I were in the DJUL, I would be making this request too. I would say, Look, we're gonna we're preparing to bring indictments, but we can't really fully vet the information and the

testimony we're presenting to the grand jury from witnesses. If those witnesses also gave sworn testimony to you J six committee, we need it all before we're comfortable telling the grand jurors, okay, indict these people. And that's what they're trying to do. They want to collect up all of the sworn testimony of relevant witnesses so they can have complete confidence in their work product and what they're requesting the grand jury

to do. Think about it. If a witness went into the grand jury and said one thing, but then there's an inconsistent transcript over in the J six Committee that could blow up a future prosecution. DJ is trying to do everything right and cross all its teas and dot all its eyes. I will continue to complain that they've taken far too long in my estimation seven time they're doing they say, look, we have prosecutions up and running that are being impacted by the very evidence we see

unfolding in the public hearings. And the Department of Justice also takes seriously its responsibility to collect up any information that could be exculpatory to defendants, that could be helpful to defendants. That's called the Brady doctrine. The Supreme Court has said, if the government has evidence that could help a defendant, exonerated defendant, impact a defendant sentence, then constitutionally

it must be given over. So I think they're also trying to collect up what they can from Congress and make sure that they satisfy their Brady obligations to all of the defendants that they're prosecuting. Let me just add, I don't want to make this a law school class that the Brady doctrine generally only applies to the executive branch because that's where the prosecutors and where law enforcement resides.

There are cases that say, well, if there's exculpatory evidence, evidence that would help a defendant over there in the legislative branch, the executive branch doesn't really possess it. So Brady strictly speaking might not apply in full force, which doesn't matter. I can tell you I come from a culture of federal prosecutors where if we knew there was something that could help a defendant, we're giving it over

because we don't want to. I don't want to be involved in convicting somebody like Senator Ted Stevens, only to have the appellate court overturn that conviction because prosecutors didn't give over the Brady evidence. So I think that's another piece of what's going on here. Why do you think, though, that it took them so long? Glenn, the Department of Justice, So why did they wait until here? We are in June. We knew, we all knew that the public hearings were

starting in June. Why would they wait until this time to ask when this investigation by the Commission has been going on for a year. I don't know the answer to that, but here's one of my one of my thoughts about it is the Department of Justice, the executive branch, and the J six Committee the legislative branch. I don't think they wanted to be perceived as working together, as colluding, right, because you have different branches of government with very different

mandates about what they're there and different authorities. Yep. And I don't think anybody wanted to make it seem like they're in cahoots they're working together, because that has implications because then there's a whole series of cases that say, if you're a prosecutor or you're an FBI agent, and you co opt somebody else to help you, well, then that person becomes your agent and they then have to follow every rule that you have to follow with respect

to the Fourth Amendment, Fifth Amendment, and sixth Amendment. So I think they've wanted to remain separate to the extent feasible. And now I think it's all coming home to roost and they're like, Okay, we need those transcripts. If I'm Betty Thompson, who I think has been doing a brilliant job with all of this, I love the tandem of Thompson and Chaney. I just I love it. I love watching it. You know, every time there's a hearing, I

would probably say, this is our work product. We understand your interest in it, we understand your need for it, and I assume you'll be subpoenaing it if you really need it, because that will give them some legal that will give Congress some legal cover to say, Okay, we received the lawful subpoena for these transcripts. We've assessed it. We don't think there's a legal infirmity or a challenge we need to launch against it. So here you go.

That's how I can see this potentially playing out. So I want to talk quickly too, because I want to get to Jenny Thomas, but I need to stay on Eastman for a second. Eastman. They play his video. Eastman doesn't even get to the point. He gets to the point where he's not even saying I plead the fifth, because that's how often he's saying it. He's just saying fifth, fifth, fifth, every other word. He's a lawyer, So how how does this look Glenn? And does he do you believe that

he knows how this looks. Yeah, he'll beat this bart eventually as well he should be, and he will also be prosecuted. In my estimation, I don't think there's any avoiding that. But here's here's I really am fixated. Some could claim on the pardons, and especially the secret pardons, the pocket pardons, because we have so many data points now, Danielle that inform my opinion that Donald Trump gave lots of folks pardons that we don't yet know about it.

Here here's those data points we now know that. Jared Kushner said, I had my nose buried in a pile of pardons trying to get them all out before the end of my daddy in law's term. So I didn't really care that Pat Sippoloni, the White House counsel, was threatening to resign because my father in law was trampling the constitution. I don't really care about that. I was busy getting all these pardons out. One data pointment another

data point. Kelly an Conway in her book said Donald Trump sidled up to her at the end of his term and said, and I'm going to use her word, I'm not being disrespectful. Hey, honey, you want to pardon. Everybody needs one, and she reportedly said, mister President, do you know something I don't. I don't think I've committed a crime, so I don't think I need a pardon.

He's like, no, everybody needs one. So if that's not if those aren't alternative facts, if we can believe what Kelly and Conway put in her book, Donald Trump offered her an unsolicited blanket hardened Danielle, do you really think he didn't offer his kids pardons if he's offering it to the likes of Kelly Ann. Here is another really

important data pointment. John Eastman, in an email requested a pardon, and what we learned yesterday from the J six Committee is he did not receive one, and I want to know why. Well, what are the implications of that? Though? He went before the J six Committee and as you just said, I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth fifth fifth five five five five? Are we done? He didn't have a pardon to protect him, so he had to plead the fifth because his statements could have been

used against him as incriminating evidence. Who else went into the grand jury? Don Junior, Ivanka, Jared Rudy none of them pled the fifth They all testified. What does that

tell us? Can't we infer that they had the protection of a pardon so they could testify, they couldn't plead the fifth These are all data points that inform my belief that Donald Trump has given a whole bunch of folk pardons, and we will have to challenge those what I believe are largely corruptly delivered pardons in the court in the future. If he had given Eastman a pardon, it would have been one co conspirator trying to pardon another co conspirator. There's not a court in the world.

I don't care if Trump did appoint the federal judge who would say, yes, that's a valid exercise of the pardon power. Do you think that they can get Eastman to flip on Trump? Yes. The reason I think that is because Eastman absolutely knows that he is going to prison, because it's not stupid, and we've all seen the evidence, and even he said I need a pardon to keep

myself out of prison, and he wasn't given one. The only way out for him, and it shouldn't keep him out of prison, and it should only reduce his sentence correct. The only way out for him is to flip and cooperate. If I'm Donald Trump, if you're Donald Trump, what's Donald Trump doing right now? Still thinking that he has lived such a charm life, He's committed crimes all his life and never been held accountable. I think he thinks, yeah,

they're not going to touch me. I'm going to announce very soon that I'm running for president, and the way I read the system is that that's going to scare everybody off, and they're going to continue to let me run a muck. I think he's wrong about it, but I have a feeling that's what's inside. That man's very very sociopathic, narcissistic, you know, criminal mind. Yeah, last question, Glenn. Jenny Thomas. Jenny Thomas is everyone's best supporting actress for

the Insurrection. Her name has come up just as much as Mark Meadows, just as much as Eastman, just as much as any of the cast of criminal characters in this play. Jenny Thomas says that she's happy to sit down with the J Six Commission so that she can clear up quote unquote misconceptions thoughts. Jenny Thomas ain't testifying. If you take one of the former career prosecutors on

the J six investigative team. We've been seeing them some during the course of the hearings, and these are folks who know how to cross examine a witness, and you unleash them to cross examine Jinny Thomas under oath. Let me just read one thing she said to Mark Meadows from a tweet she sent on November fifth, right after Donald Trump corruptly declared that, frankly, I won this election, even though every adult in the room told him, you can't do this because you didn't win the election, other

than drunken Rudy, who said, Dad, just do it. Here's what Jenny Thomas sent to Mark Meadows quote Biden crime family and ballot fraud co conspirators, elected officials, bureaucrats, social media censorship mongers, fake stream media reporters, etc. Are being arrested and detained for ballot fraud. Right now and over the coming days, we'll be living in barges off GITMO to face military tribunals for sedition. Miss Thomas, what did

you mean? Why did you send that to the chief of staff urging him to help overturn the elections results? Because Miss Thomas. Every word in there was flat out false. And I mean that's one question of a thousand questions. Jenny Thomas cannot survive cross examination on what she has done. That doesn't even begin to talk about her interaction with the Arizona electors or or what she and her husband

were discussing. And not to go down a trim law one oh one rabbit hole, but can we ask her about what would otherwise be privileged spousal communications because the crime fraud exception applies. I mean, this has so many dimensions to it. I think what you're going to hear is, oh, you know what, there were scheduling conflicts and we you know, I just couldn't work it out to find time to appear before the committee. I would bet a buck Jenny Thomas will never hit the witness stand. Is she going

to hit be hit with an indictment? Is her husband going to be investigated? Because there are two cases apparently that he should have refused himself from that he did not. You know what, I am always looking at the glasses being half fulled. I don't think our federal government has the appetite or the determination to investigate a Supreme Court Justice and his wife. I think they should because there's

adequate predication, enough evidence to open an investigation. I also think, and I'm more inclined to think this might happen, Congress at some point should open an inquiry into Justice Thomas to consider to investigate what happened when he unethically failed to recuse himself, remove himself from a case that involved his wife's treason, his text messages, and determine whether they should consider drafting articles of impeachment. I think that should happen.

I don't know that that happens either, because our government is not good at getting its arms around all of the crime I'm in corruption. It needs to unbelievable. Well, Glenn, this was a blockbuster hearing. Can't wait to discuss hearing number four with you. What are you looking at? What are you waiting on? That? We haven't seen Jesse yet? So they're kind of teasing us a little bit because I believe we're gonna begin to hear more evidence of

statements directly out of Donald Trump's mouth. Now we heard some of that yesterday. Mike Pence is the P word because he won't criminally overturn the results of the election, and wouldn't it be cool if you could just do it? You know this is it's just abject criminal conduct. I think You're going to hear more about Trump's statements. You're going to see pictures, photographs, I hope even video. But at least we know we've been teased with the White

House photographer. Yeah, I captured a bunch of the stuff in real time during the insurrection. Pictures worn't a thousand words. So I think we get closer and closer and closer. And I do think the bombs get bigger and bigger and bigger, and they're going to end big. They're not going to end on a fizzle. Well, fireworks and time for the fourth of July. Glenn Kirshner, thank you so much for always breaking down what seems to be the breakdown of our democracy. We appreciate you, and we'll see

you next week. You next week. Danielle Indisputable with Doctor Rashid Ricci is one of the latest shows on the TYT network and also the fastest growing news show in America. On his show, Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy dose of fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all the top news stories focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics, police brutality, Karens, and much more.

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That is it for me today? Hear friends on Woke a app as always Power to the people and to all the people power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts

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