Orchestra of Mayhem

activate them to violence. I've been talking about the fact that the New York Times has reported that the talk of civil war on these far right channels and Justin and I don't even want to say it's far right channels, it's Republican chatter is up three thousand percent, and Donald Trump is their conductor, right, he is the orchestra conductor

of mayhem and chaos. And without taking out Donald Trump, without indicting him, without placing a fucking muzzle on that man's mouth, without throwing him in jail and everyone around him for their attempts to try and overthrow the government, we now know through the Department of Justice through yet another league that guess what, they don't have all the documents. Well, surprising no one, we all know that they don't have

all the fucking documents. We all know that Donald Trumps has them stashed around in as many of his homes as he has because they come with dollar signs. You know, I can't help but think and don't I'm not saying that this is true. I'm just saying, let's think about it,

Oh peck. You know the group of countries that produce, essentially in trade, the world's oil that allows our cars to run because we refuse to invest in any type of significant clean energy that is the energy of the future, because we our Earth's supply is diminishing, right, and you know we're going to war over this ship. But nonetheless, I think to myself, it's a part of OPAC. Well, it's the Saudis, Kuwait Emirates. You know, the groups that

are in the Middle East. But when I hear Saudis and I hear that, you know they got a lot and they are like pretty much running things. I say to myself self, the same Saudis that gave Jared Kushner two billion dollars when he exited the Trump White House. The same saudis that the Trumps, all of them, have been in bedwidth Mohammad bin Salaam. And then they decide thirty days before midterm elections, to increase the cost of oil per barrel? Is this a coincidence? Maybe? Or maybe

fucking not right? You know, folks, I'm so tired of being thought of as a fool, because that's what Republicans, That's what I feel like. This Justice Department wants to take the American people for They want to take us for a fucking ride. Because you're telling me that you have motherfuckers that are in jail right now because of their manipulation of documents that are on a lesser level than what Donald Trump has done, and they're serving time,

no questions asked. But we're still trying to die eyes and cross tees for a known criminal enterprise. Really, that's what we are here doing. We know that Jared Kushner was given two billion dollars. We also know that he's no businessman. His fucking father was thrown in jail for his fraudulent shit. So we want to think that all of that is on the up and up, and that these documents have nothing to do with that, Like, are

we dumb? I just like, folks, I gotta tell you, every day is yet another day that I feel fucking crazy, right, And I know that if I feel crazy, y'all feel crazy too, because the questions that I will ask glennar you know what's funny is that I'm not sure if we don't actually get to the root of the root and the core of the core of the rot that is ever present not only in the Department of Justice, but the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, and all

of these places, that we actually bounce back because I'm at a place where I'm just like, you know, maybe Lindsay Graham and all of them are right in dieting. Donald Trump is going to cause more violence. You think the FBI is out there trying to pick up any of those people, No, because they're probably in their own ranks. So I'm just like, folks, are we just fucked? Those are the questions that wake me up in the middle

of the night. Is everything just done? And what we are participating right now is just a show for show's sake? I have no idea, but I know, for one I am exhausted. Coming up next my conversation with our good, good friend, the host of Justice Matters, Glenn Kirshner. Hey there, I want to tell you about another podcast I think you'll love. The Brown Girl's Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Goehler, the president of Emerge. BGG, is the one stop shop for women of color who want to

hear and talk about the world of politics. Join Ashanti this season as she talks to incredible women of color who are changing the face of politics and tackling some of the most important issues basing the United States, from reproductive justice to voting rights, to climate change and more.

Tune in every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, folks, you know that whenever I have the opportunity to sit down weekly with our friend MSNBC legal analysts and the host of Justice Matters, Glenn Kirshner, I am always thrilled, Glenn, you have been making the rounds. I don't know when you sleep, but I really don't. Every time I turn on my TV, I'm like, there he is, so for us, we always appreciate your time on woke. F Let's start with where we find ourselves with the Oathkeeper's case as

a lot of interesting tidbits have been bubbling up. One in particular that I want to unpack, which is what seems to be communication. I won't call it coordination, but communication between the Oathkeepers on the ground and Secret Service. This came out in the case in the hearing. Please tell us more about what you've been paying attention to. Yeah,

I think it's really it's an interesting development. I call it eyebrow raising, but I don't think it's all that your main to the trial, quite frankly, and I think the prosecutors would be well advised not to distract the jury. I know these prosecutors. They're my old homicide folks. I tried the first murder case with one of the lead prosecutors, Kaper Cozy. She's fabulous. So here's how the testimony developed. There was a Trump rally in September, now this is

September before the November election in Fayetteville, North Carolina. One of the witnesses who was a member of the oath Keepers temporarily. I'll talk more about that in a minute, because it's really interesting. Angle He said he overheard a phone conversation where Elmer don't call him because his name is Elmer and he hates it. Elmer. Stewart Rhodes was

on the phone. He couldn't hear the other end of the conversation, but Rhodes said he was talking to a secret Service agent, and this witness, who was retired military himself, said yeah, in context what I was hearing, it sounded like he was talking with a secret Service agent about logistics for the Trump rally and what the Oathkeepers might be able to do to help provide protection and security, all of which is nonsense. That's really not what the

Oathkeepers were ever about. That's a curiosity, but frankly, Danielle, it has nothing to do with the charges against the five Oathkeepers on trial for what they did on January six, So you know, maybe we'll hear more about that in the future. It's troubling, it's concerning, and hopefully DJ. I'm confident DJ has investigated it. Why they chose to drop that nugget in this trial, right, I don't know, but they had a practical reason to do it. Of that,

I'm sure. So, Okay, bring us up to speed on a reminder, a refresher, if you will, on what the five oathkeepers are on trial four, we know that it's sedition, are there any other elements? And again, just out of curiosity, why is it just five? So here is that that's a great question. I actually have a great answer for

a change, Dan Yell. I tried Rico cases in that very courthouse, and there is a rule that has been set by the United States Marshal Service, because those are the ones who provide courtroom security for the judge, for the jury, for the prosecutors, for the defense, for the audience. They have a hard and fast rule that you can try no more than six defendants in a courtroom at

any given time. There are other oath keepers who are pending trial for the same seditious cons piracy, and they will be charged in the future, but they opted only to go against these five. I think it's for security reasons. When I tried Rico cases, we did six in one trial, six in the next trial, and because there was a thirteenth defendant, I had to do a Rico case against one defendant for three months. It really is a security thing.

So I think that's what's driving the train, you know, and just staying on this for a moment, because also we saw reporting from the New York Times that is talking about the fact that the call for a civil war on these far right channels right which is how January six, how these groups organized right out in the open,

is up three thousand percent. Are we to believe Glenn or just in your in your thoughts and an analysis that even though Elmer is on trial right now in the and other members of these other groups, the Proud Boys at three percenters, their folks are on trial, that they aren't that they are not still in control, like

are we? It is what I'm asking I guess is that as we're trying to hold these people accountable for January six, do you believe that there is also someone who is keeping pace with how they're continuing with this coup? I hope so, I hope the FBI is now focusing on them in a way that perhaps they were not in the run up to January sixth. Maybe they were. I don't want to sell the FBI short, but given the lack of security at the capital on January six,

there were some real law enforcement failures or orchestrations. If Trump deprived the capital of the law enforcement resources it needed, to meet the attack. I hope they are. But here's the good news. I actually think that groups like the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, the Proud Boys, have decimated by the criminal charges that have been brought against those organizations. And there's a concrete example of that. Three witnesses testified yesterday.

All three were former Oathkeepers. Now these were not gentlemen who attacked the capital on January sixth. They were oath Keepers in like the summer of twenty twenty and what they saw from Elmer Stewart, Rhodes and other members of the Oathkeepers so repelled and repulsed them that they quit and they started cooperating with the authorities. So they're not the cooperating witnesses who flipped. We're going to hear from

them in the weeks to come in the trial. And here is why I came away from yesterday's court hearing, which was a long day, with a little bit more hope and optimism. Three witnesses testify, John Zimmerman, Abdullah Rashid, and Michael Adams. They all said similar things. You know what, I was drawn to the Oathkeepers because part of their mission was to protect others to provide security to serve

people who needed help. We'll take that with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of organizations you can plug in to to serve others that don't also have nationalism and white supremacy as a part of their mission. But let's set that aside for a minute. These three men, all military veterans, said that's why I was drawn to serve, and I'm a conservative, and I like Trump and all that. Okay.

Then after a month or two when they saw what was going on inside the organization and they heard Elmer's dangerous rhetoric wanting to overthrow the United States government and wanting to do things like here's a testimony from yesterday. John Zimmerman said, we were at the million Maga march in November after Trump lost the election. We were going to provide security, and the leader of the oath Keepers, Elmer, the lead defendant in this trial, said you know what

we should do. There's gonna be BLM and Antifa at this million Maga march stirring up trouble. We should dress like we're really elderly and vulnerable people and carry canes and bait them into trying to attack us, and then we'll give them a good beatdown. And John Zimmerman said, I was so repulsed and angry. He was angry on the sand, and he said so and upset by that. He said, that's the opposite of why I was drawn

to the Oathkeepers. I thought we were here to serve other people, not bait them into you attacking us so we could give them a good beatdown. All three of these military veterans walked away from the oathkeepers and began assisting the authorities against the oathkeepers. Danielle. That caused me to stop and think about my perceptions. I hear oathkeepers, what do I think? They're all a bunch of white supremacists who are in it for the entirely wrong reasons.

Not all of them were. I'm not excusing any of it, but I came away feeling like, Okay, these former of these military veterans, they really didn't have the perspective of the Elmer Rhodes of the world, you know. So that is a little bit of reason for optimism that I didn't have before yesterday's sport. Here, Hey, I'm David Plots of Slates Political gap fest as another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all the noise

and the news. Each week, on the gap Fest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree, We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So subscribe to Slate's Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday. How long, Glenn, and you know again a guest, amit? How long before we get to the end of this

oath Keeper trial? At least part one of the trial and this saga? And that's one and then two? Do you think that a guilty verdict, you know which who knows that a guilty verdict resonates in any type of way, sends reverberations through maga world? Or is it just more fuel for the fire? Look at the government coming against us and we have to rise up even more? You know? I think the Trump base loses people slowly over time, at least those people who are either capable of critical

thinking or willing to assess facts and think critically. And not everybody is right, but I don't think that. I don't think Trump attracts anybody else to his base. So to answer your question, I think sudicious conspiracy convictions which we can't predict. But I'm telling you this has been we just finished week two. It is a very strong case on the evidence because they have videotapes and audio recordings and you know, signal chats and admissions by these people,

and it's a very strong case. I think it helps. I think it helps, maybe only around the margins, but it helps. And to answer your first question, the parties predicted it would be a four to six week trial. I can tell you we always overpredict how long a trial is going to take, so it could be more like three weeks, maybe four weeks. It started last week with jury selection, this week with testimony, will continue the testimony next week. Okay. Switching gears to another announcement that

was made lo and Behold. The Department of Justice now believes that they don't have all of the files that Donald Trump stole from the White House and took to his home in Marilago or what we had been saying, what I had been saying, potentially stash them around all of his other properties god knows where in this country and beyond this once again get another revelation where if it were you, Glen, if it were me, we'd be in jail, we would have been picked up already, we

would be indicted, we'd be under strict investigation. So what does this new news provide to you? Because I can tell you that the people that listen to my show are like, so what else? What else does the Department of Justice need at this point, Like it's getting to the point of ridiculousness that they are, in my humble opinion, are embarrassing themselves. So, first of all, Donald Trump, as you said, it's been reported, still has documents he stole

from the government. I'm shocked, said absolutely nobody. Right, of course he still has documents, probably that he squirreled away in Bedminster, in Trump Tower, at his other properties. Of course he does. Now, first of all, technically, the FBI needs to have enough evidence of probable cause before they

can get a warrant for those other properties. So just because we know it in our gut, and just because there may be some bits and pieces of evidence and information suggesting he still has more documents doesn't necessarily meet the legal threshold of probable cause that would allow the FBI to get more search warrants. So I don't want to say they're being negligent. But here's the thing, Danielle, as you said, stop negotiating with the documents terrorists, because

that's what Donald Trump is. When somebody commits of senses by stealing classified information, national defense information, information about the nuclear weapons capabilities of foreign countries, and they illegally conceal those documents, stop negotiating with them, arrest them, indict them, try them. And you know what that would have the fringe benefit, daniel of having this judge, a lean cannon,

unbelievable horseshit melt away. It would melt away. It would take a back seat to the criminal prosecution of Donald Trump in the federal court in Washington, d C. For God's sakes, Stop negotiating with the documents terrorists. It just I mean, Glenn, you couldn't have said it better. It is outrageous. At this point, we know that there are people that are serving time in federal prison for less.

We know that lock and you know airtight cases. I don't understand how we continue to say that no one is above the law that the Department of Justice doesn't play politics, And yet we hear reports that no indictments will come out until after the midterm elections. How is that not playing politics? We are being told that, oh, we have to take fine care because this is a former twice in peach president of the United States. We can't just throw around indictments. The Department of Justice has

to cross all its teas and eyes, does it? Because Glenn as a black woman in these United States? I gotta tell you it doesn't take much but to walk outside of my home or actually be in my own home, right to be shot, killed, presumed guilty for whatever reason. So how is it that the of Justice you think can justify, can justify this slow walking that they are doing with somebody Glenn, who, as you say, is in fact a domestic terrorist that continues to stir and coax

fires across this country. Yeah, if Donald Trump were a person of color or a Muslim, how quickly would he have been arrested. I can't justify DJ's slow walking. I can explain it by the legitimate concern that if you're going to charge a former president of the United States, you want to do it right. You want to do it, well, you want to do it after you have exhaustively investigated the evidence against him, because there's little room for failure. Now,

no case is a perfect case. And I always taught my prosecutors when I was supervising them at the DCUs Attorney's office, it is far more important to try cases than to win cases, because that is doing the right thing by the victims of crime, by the community that you are obliged to protect. Once you have probable cause, you have enough evidence to charge, you must charge unless there is some countervailing reason in the evidence not to. DJ is trying to build the perfect case, build the

perfect beast against Donald Trump. There is no such thing as a perfect case. And in the introm they're allowing the criminal to do more damage to our democracy. They're in my opinion, they're striking the wrong balance. But I think that is why it's taking so darn long, you know, And just on this point, what if anything is going

to happen with Judge alien Cannon. You know, she has made it now her mission to show the country and the world that she is nothing more than a puppeteer, that she is doing exactly what she was put in position to do, and it is unethical, It's unconscionable. So what if anything, what if any recourse is there, even Glenn, to deal with a person like her? The recourse is anybody who wants to can go to US Courts dot gov. There is a very short, intuitive, easy to fill out

judicial complaint for him. Anybody can fill one out and submit it. And I have reason to believe, and I have heard lots have been submitted already, to try to urge a judicial oversight committee to open an investigation into why Aileen Canon has been ruling in that are not

supported by the law. And you know that, frankly seem entirely unsupportable given the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals unanimous brutal SmackDown of a lean Cannon's ruling in favor of TRUMPA and two of those three judges on the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals were Trump appointees, telling Judge Cannon, you had no business exercising jurisdiction here and doing what

you did, it was an abusive discretion. They have at least slow walked toward that conclusion, given the stage of the appellate litigation, that to me does more than just raise an eyebrow. It suggests there may be a reason that she is ruling for reasons other than the facts and the law, and we need to investigate what those reasons might be. And then finally, for you, Glenn, we've

only named but two cases there are. We have Tish James New York, agh is going after the civil side of what she calls basically a fraudulent criminal enterprise, the Trump organization. And we are still watching what Fanie Willis is doing in Fulton County in Georgia. We're coming up with just a handful of weeks until mid term elections, and we're still, as it pertains to Fanie Willis's case,

investigating the last election. Where what are you hearing and seeing with regard to what kind of insight you can give us to how those two cases are going. So Tish James case is the laydown winner. You know, I has I hasten to add there's no such thing as a short thing. But given what Tish James has put together in that mega indictment, and Donald Trump invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination to all of those questions, he loses, and he loses big. That is a case

that almost cannot be lost by Tish James's team. But all that does, it doesn't put anybody in prison. It basically takes it so they can't be businesspeople in New York anymore, and they're gonna end up having to pay about a quarter of a billion dollars for the fraud

that they've been engaged in. That's great, and let's hope that that adds fuel to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office investigation of Donald Trump for the crimes that he committed together with Alan Weisselberg, who pleaded guilty to them, together with the Trump organization who's going on trial for them. Let's hope that that moves forward. Fannie Willis, I think is kicking on all cylinders. I just think it's that's

a big case. It's taking a long time. I would level some of the same criticisms that when you have the part of the crime caught on tape, find me eleven votes and corruptly declare me the winner. What I just said, Danielle constitutes the crime of soliciting election fraud under the Georgia state laws. How about we get off the dime. So I hope that one is coming to fruition soon. The Department of Justice documents case, the insurrection case,

other charges. I don't know. What I have absolutely no sense of right now is where there's the first indictment drop. But what I am confident of is one it will drop, and two then everybody's going to want to be the second prosecutor to charge Donald Trump. Nobody is enthusiastic about being the first. You know what, Before I let you go, I do have one more question, and it is about the Supreme Court another judge that I believe needs to

be investigated, which is Clarence Thomas. The January sixth Committee sat down with Jinny Thomas. Yeah, the wife of Clarence Thomas, who still believes the election was stolen, says that, oh, this has nothing to do with my husband, because apparently Republicans and as well as her, think that we are stupid.

What do you make of what she shared? And what again, any recourse that we have for judges with lifetime appointments to never be held accountable, Because I got to tell you, there's a reason why we have on the books you can't testify against your spouse and these things. It's spousal communication. I guess that still holds even when your wife is working to overthrow democracy. Yeah, and you can't sit in a case as a judge in which your wife has

an interest or is involved. Right, but Clarence Thomas did that. Yeah, Jenny Thomas lot right. She testified falseley the election was stolen. She's married to a judge. Sixty five judges, including Trump appointees, said there's no evidence that the election was fraudulent. So Jenny Thomas knows better than those sixty five judges, including

Trump appointees. It is such a transparent lie, and I predict she will not be held accountable for it because what would have to happen next is the Department of Justice would have to take her transcript from her appearance before the January sixth committee and begin investigating it for potential false statements and violation of eighteen United States Code one thousand and one. Even if you're not under oath, if you make false statements to a congressional committee, it's

just like perjury. It's the same thing. It's called a false statement, and I'm sure they could find any number

of lies. I mean, remember, this is a woman the only reason she has that access to the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States is because she's married to Clarence Thomas, and she texted him that one reason you must work to overturn the elections results, mister Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, is because right now there are ballot fraudsters on barge's outside of Gitmo awaiting their military tribunal for sedition. Therefore, you must overturn the

elections results. I wish I could have been the attorney examining Jinny Thomas about that factual assertion that she made in support of her requests that the results be overturned. It is such unbelievable horseshit, It just is. Will she be held accountable? Will Clarence Thomas be investigated for his conflicts of interest? Will anything change with respect to life tenure or any sort of ethical rules being adopted to govern what is a runaway, relying, illegitimate Supreme Court. I

don't know. I hope so, but I don't know. I tell you, you know, if you don't get to the root of the root and the core of the core, I don't know how you clean out the rot. That's all I have to say. I really don't. And you know, barring the dropping of the indictments that you say, you know you believe are coming, but we don't know when,

and we don't know who. I'm telling you, I'm at this point I don't know if it will be enough, because that's how rotten to the core our agencies have become, and these rules that we have in place that only half of the country is following. So I honestly I don't know. As always, Glenn Kirshner, I appreciate your time, your analysis, and your passion. Thank you so much for making the time for us. I'm okay if we always appreciate you. I'll see you next week, Danielle. That is

it for me today. Dear friends on Woke f as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.