Justice Is Coming

know who it did capture. You know who is inside the net, Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon has been indicted again, as we talked about late last week, on twenty five additional charges of defrauding Oh Trump supporters out of roughly a million dollars that they thought that they were paying into, you know, to build that pesky wall that he decided to pocket. And we know that Donald Trump had no problem with him defrauding his supporters because he pardoned him.

But the reality here, dear friends, is that we may not see for quite some time Donald Trump in an orange jumpsuit, which we all know that that motherfucker belongs in. But justice is coming down on Steve Bannen, and as Glenn will walk us through, he is facing upwards of fifteen years in prison in federal prison for the crimes that he has committed. Now, Glenn and I neither one

of us believe that he will see fifteen years. But I just have to say this that any time that Steve Bannon spends off of a microphone, off of our goddamn screens, off of the radio, off of our consciousness, and is locked in a cell somewhere is good for America. It means that America is safe from his bullshit, from

his lies, from his white supremacist fantasies. And that's really where I am in terms of wanting justice to prevail with Donald Trump and all of the sick offense, is that the reality is that putting them in jail will make this country safer. You know, that was supposed to

be the point of prison in the first place. But as Glenn will talk to us about, it seems that when it comes to quote unquote white collar crimes, crimes against society, crimes against this nation, this justice system does not rain down nearly as hard as it does on you know, loose cigarettes, a counterfeit twenty dollar bill, or suspicion of a backpack being stolen. In those cases, if you are black, you are You're dead. It's not even

an either or you are dead. And so what we will think about and talk about in this conversation with our Frank Glen Kirshner is when will we or will we ever make that shift to where it is those that are in positions of power that should be held to the highest standards and account and not those that are doing nothing more than harming themselves. Shouldn't that be

how we look at our justice system. It isn't about the privilege and the money that allows you to walk away from unimaginable and unthinkable crimes, but it should be about how much harm you actually did. And I know that taking Steve Bannon off the street, taking Donald Trump off of his fucking golf course would serve this country a whole heap of good. Coming up next my conversation

with our friend Glenn Kirshner. Hey, there, I want to tell you about another podcast I think you'll love, The Brown Girl's Guide to Politics, hosted by a Shanty Goehler, the president of Emerge BGG is the one stop shop for women of color who want to hear and talk about the world of politics. Join a Shanty this season as she talks to incredible women of color who are changing the face of politics and tackling some of the most important issues facing the United States, from reproductive justice

to voting rights, to climate change and more. Tune in every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer

look at how and why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. Folks. I am so happy to welcome back to Woke app after my long break. Glenn Kirschner, MSNBC legal analysts and the host of Justice Matters to make sense of where we are in this legal web that Trump and his sycophants and now federal Judge Cannon is weaving right in front of the American

people's eyes. Glenn, Well, let's start off, you know, before we jump into Trump and that mess with the DJ right now, let's go to where we are with Steve Bannon. Saw a beautiful site this week, as I'm sure you did, which was Steve Bannon in a perp walk. I thought that it means it apparently looked like a fashion show runway with the amount of paparazzi and cameras that were flashing. Just what were your what were you? What are your

thoughts and reflections on where Steve Bannon has finally found himself. Yeah, So Steve Bannon is indicted again for stealing money for defrauding Donald Trump's supporters. And before I jumped into the New York case in the new indictment, I still am astonished, Danielle that Steve Bannon stole from Donald Trump supporters. And when Donald Trump found out about it, he said, it's all good, Steve, I got you. I'm gonna pardon you

for stealing from my supporters. Now we don't know if Steve Bannon got to keep the money he stole from Trump supporters. We don't know if Bannon split it with Donald Trump. I would frankly be surprised if Donald Trump didn't take a little cut for himself. But just think about how mind boggling it is that Donald Trump pardoned Bannon for stealing money from the people who were supporting Donald Trump. Well, he got away with it in the short term, but now it looks like it's all come

home to roost. I will say, Alvin Braggs District Attorney's office decided to indict Steve Bannon, So I think we have to compliment Bragg's office when it does something well, but continue to demand questions on why Alvin Bragg killed the criminal case against Donald Trump. That by the accounts of the prosecutors working, the case was very strong and should have been brought. But look, we've got a twenty

five count indictment against Steve Bannon. Now he's facing upwards of fifteen years in prison, which for him is kind of a de facto life term life sentence, and the case looks strong for a couple of reasons. One, there are some written communications that looks like they will sink Bannon.

Plus there are I believe, cooperating witnesses. There were multiple code defendants that Bannon was in this conspiracy to defraud with, and we can't tell precisely how many are cooperating against him, but it appears that one or more of them are. Bannon should be done by all accounts, let him go to trial and get convicted. Let's not forget he was indicted while he was pending sentencing in another federal case in which he's been convicted. He's facing up to two

years in his contempt of Congress case in DC. One way or another, Bannon's going to prison, and that's a good thing because he's finally being held accountable for some of his crimes. So, Glenn, A couple of things. A couple of things here, which which is this um so Bannon? According to according to reports, right he stole upwards of like a million dollars right like this. This was part of the build the wall, M give me your money, U scam. And what I think is really interesting about

how these criminals are being gone after. And this includes Alan Weisselberg, this includes you know, uh, folks like that, which is all about basically mob boss type shit, right, like money laundering, the theft, not paying taxes, like this is all of the things that these people get caught up in. And so my question here, and I you know, you really can't answer it, but it's just so bizarre to me. How do these people continue to like, cape for and defend Donald Trump and they're being told they

stole from you? Right, Like this is a million dollars that Steve Bannon pocketed for his own personal use. This is not like a conspiracy of saying like, oh, you owe the government. It's like you stole from these people who thought that you were building a wall. And then Donald Trump put his stamp of approval on Bannon's theft by pardoning him. You're right, Daniel, I can't answer the question why do people continue to support Trump? Why do they continue to send him their hard earned money when

he's not even running for office. He just said, hey, folks, send me money so I can put it in my pocket, and they do it. Some of them are gullible, let's face it. I don't want to be unkind, but some people don't have critical thinking abilities. Not that you need to think critically with you know, with the evidence that's out there about how Donald Trump continues to grift and steal from his own base, his own supporters. But I

have to chalk it up to tribalism. You know. People are like, look, he may be a career com man, but one he hates folk the way we hate folk, and so we have that bond. Listen. I have always maintained hate is the strongest bond and the strongest motivator, much more powerful than love. Unfortunately I wish that wasn't the case, but that's my sense of human nature. And Donald Trump gives people someone and something to hate and

to look down on. Listen. I've been rooting for the Washington football team, the Washington Commanders for a long time, even though I was born and raised on the New York Giants, because my pop was a New York Giants football fan, so I was. And then when I moved to DC nineteen ninety, I for some reason became a Redskins fan, now a Commander's fan for apparently no good reason, because they are perennial losers. Do I still kind of still pull for them. I still pull for them. That's

a form of tribalism. It's like, look, Donald Trump might be a losing team. Budd He's our losing team. And I think there's also a hatred for the other when it comes to the political calculation. I hate Biden and Pelosi and Schumer and this one and that one. So all I really have is the career con man that's on my team. I'm gonna think that explains some of it. But Danielle, none of these explanations are good explanations. So

twenty five indictments. This is on top of what Bannon was charged with earlier in you know, in the year you said at the top, we're looking at five to fifteen years. What I have seen and what we've noticed, as it pertains to the insurrection, as it pertains with anybody with these quote unquote white collar dealings, is that they never get the maximum. Because this isn't Steve Bannon's first indictment, right, what are your what is your what are your thoughts about where this is going to land

for him? Because frankly, you know, we know that Steve Bannon deserves more than fifteen years, right, Like, I mean, we know that, But where realistically do you think that we will find ourselves? Because I think that because Honestly, I think that any time that you take a microphone and cameras away from Steve Bannon, you are making America safer. So if that ends up only being five years, I'm like, that's five years without hearing his voice. I'm good with that.

But yeah, shutting up Steve Bannon helps make America great, No, no two ways about it. But you know, it's a great question, and my heart sinks when you ask the question, what do I expect by way of a sentence for Steve Bannon? My hopes are high, My expectations are very low. You know. Now, maybe if he stole a backpack or sold loose cigarettes, he would be facing some real Well, no, he wouldn't, because he'd beat white and rich and influential

and connected. Okay, if I'm being realistic, I think maybe we see five years in prison for Steve Bannon. Hopefully that's on top of consecutive two the one to two years he's likely to get down here in DC for his contempt of Congress convictions. I would hope for more, but I'll tell you, Danielle, I wish I could be a politican because I would run on a one plank platform. I would kick the living hell out of every ruling

class criminal. I would. I would pardon all of the WE defenders and the non violent drug offenders, and I would make space for every ruling class criminal who's gotten away with defrauding, stealing, from abusing, running rough shot over we the people in a way that is criminal. When I say kick the hell out of them, I'm speaking figuratively, using the rule of law, not physically or you know, literally,

But at some point, why can't you know? There's Stephen van zandt Bruce, Springsteen's lead guitarist, has this phrase that I have co opted, which I love. He says, where are all the tough good guys. We've got so many tough bad guys who are willing to run rough shod over we the people. Where in the hell are the tough good guys who are willing to fight back, who are willing to kick the hell out of the people who are kicking the hell out of us? I think

that's a fair question, you know. And and when you say you know, and I love the term that you just use, ruling class criminals like I love that because you know, I feel like white collar crime right gets a wink in a nod. It's not even I feel

like we know it. White collar crime gets a wink in a nod from our justice system, and I'm like, but their crimes are so much more egregious to me than any drug, you know, any drug offense, right, because particularly with the low level black, low level drug dealings of black and brown people who are in jail on

you know, on attempt to distribute. But it was like a dime bag, do you know what I'm saying, Like you're talking about people like Alan Weisselberg and you know, and Steve Bannon that have defrauded tens of thousands of people, right, that have hurt so many, Like it is akin to how again the government gave a wink and a nod to Wall Street and big banks after they defrauded the

American people with the housing scam. Right. So I'm like, why is it that those people that have the power and the access and the know how always get a slap on the risk. And it is the low level people who have no money, no power, and no access, no friends in high places that we lock up and throw away the key and we're only harming that individual, not right, The syndicate Yeah, who did more damage in every definition of the word damage. Who did more damage

to more people? Steve Bannon or a kid who steals a backpack, and yet look at the disparity entreat and in punishment. You know, That's why I wish, I wish members of the Democratic Party would say, it's time to focus YEA, our law enforcement efforts on the ruling class criminals, because they're the ones doing the real damage, not the person selling loose cigarettes or passing a fake twenty or stealing a backpack. You know, that's not who's destroying America.

It's the ruling class criminals. Somebody's got to take them on. Yep, um Glenn. Now, I want to get back to back to the top with Donald Trump, the stolen nuclear documents that he had scattered all over his floor in Mara Lago, and where we are with the Judge Cannon, because this is the first time that I have had the opportunity to talk to you. What do we know? Firstly about

Judge Cannon? We know that she was pointed under the Trump administration, But what do we know is she one of a myriad of people that actually shouldn't have this position? Does she actually have the resume that matches the position that she is in, or she just another like Trump flunkey. Well, let's start with she was a Federalist Society member since she was in her mid twenties. I when I was in my mid twenties, I wasn't longing for the good

old days when slavery was still a thing. Is she has been a Federalist Society member since her mid twenties. She had zero qualifications to be a federal judge with a lifetime appointment. You can read up on her. There's a lot of good stuff, a lot of good investigative journalism that's being done about her, her plenary lack of qualifications. I mean she had to fill out a form and anticipation of her Senate Information hearing, It's like, have you

published any scholarly legal articles? No? Have you published any articles? Well, when I was a reporter for a local paper, I published something about the opening of a yoga studio. Have you ever given a media interview about any topic that's related to the law. Well, no, but I was interviewed on the day I was getting married, and they published a nice picture of me and my fiance. This is what we're dealing with Danielle This is what we're dealing with,

somebody who has zero qualifications. Let's remember she was confirmed by Mitch McConnell's Senate after Donald Trump lost the election, and I think she was confirmed to do precisely what she's done, rule in favor of Donald Trump, notwithstanding zero factual or legal support for Donald trump position. Thank goodness, the dj has swooped in filed a very targeted appeal, trying to split the baby and be very diplomatic. And if she does not reverse course, she will sort of

lose whatever little lingering credibility as a federal judge. She might be able to sort of retain, but I don't know, you know, on the legal merits, she should absolutely reverse course. But will she look at who she is, look at what she was installed to do, and look at what she's done. She actually said in her ruling that I'm going to do this in part because I'm concerned about the reputational harm to Donald Trump. First of all, if we can stop laughing at that sentence, the reputational harm

to Donald Trump an abject career criminal. But the other thing is that's not part of the law. That's not why you rule. Because you're concerned with the president's reputational harm, and that is something that you are You've never expressed a concern about with respect to anybody else. I mean, we could go issue by issue by issue, but it's pretty How do you how do we, Glenn, How do we not scrub these people from the positions that they were put in that they shouldn't be in. How is

this woman not being being told to recuse herself? How how do you get these people up before a panel of their peers? Right, I'm just so confused about how you can just pick literally, you know, a pumpkin out of a patch and say here's a lifetime appointment and we just all go along with it because it's the

way that things have always been done. You do things the way that they've always been done, if in fact they've been done correctly, if they haven't been yours telling me that we just have to go along with it, I just I don't understand. Well. The way things were done in the Obama administration is when he would propose a name to as a person to nominate to the federal bench, he would await the American Bar association's rating, and if the person was rated not qualified, then he

declined to nominate that person. And that I think is an appropriate way to vet. It's not the only way, but an appropriate way to vet judicial nominees. But Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump didn't care judges. Potential judges could be rated not qualified, completely unqualified, and they didn't care. As long as they had the right ideology, they would

cram them down America's throat on party line votes. That's what Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump were about, and that is why we have a Supreme Court that I think is on the verge of being entirely illegitimate. And when the courts become illegitimate, that's dangerous because you're sending the message to the American people that the rule of law is illegitimate, and therefore, why would anybody bother abiding by the rule of law. You know, that is kind of

a recipe for anarchy down the road. If we don't write our judicial ship. There are still opportunities to do it. I don't see a lot of movement in that direction,

but there are still opportunities to do it. Okay, So the DOJ and I saw, you know, another friend, Joyce white Van said that the DOJ is giving Judge Bannon a gift that she should take, and you know, and other legal scholars on the right and on the left have said exactly the same thing, which is surprising because I would assume that everybody on the right, you know, is just going to go along for the get along.

Is the DOJ gambling here? Yeah, I mean they are gambling, and no matter what position they took, it would have been a gamble. And I agree that That's why I said it was kind of a split debate right approach, because they're giving the judge an opportunity to save face, to reverse course, in part because DJ basically made its best argument as to why we really need to continue

the investigation. We need to continue to be able to protect our national security, and basically, your stop work order, Judge, has endangered everyone and everything. Giving you an out, we're giving you an out. We're giving you an opportunity to save face, to continue to move forward with you know, maybe the Special Master looking at this small batch of information that may have some attorney client privilege attached to it. They were trying to be diplomatic, Yes, it's a gamble.

But here's the thing, no matter what position they took, it was going to be a gamble. And I think it was smart to give the judge who already entered this horrific ruling, an opportunity to both reverse course and do the right thing, but also save face and keep a little bit of what she wanted to do up and running to the extent that little bit doesn't really mean anything to the Department of Justice because it won't

impede DJ's investigation. But the reason I say, no, matter what they did would be a gamble because if they just went hard, they said, judge, you're out to lunch. We're appealing everything. Where does that appeal go the Eleventh Circuit? The eleventh Circuit is lousy with Trump appointees. So when

I say lousy, that's my old Brooklyn term. Man in places lousy with cops, that means there's a lot of So that was going to be a gamble too, because in theory, when a case gets appealed to a federal circuit court, it's supposed to be a random selection of judges from that bench that that make up the three judge panel that will hear the appeal. But you know what, if you get three Trump appointees and they're not honest brokers of the law, then they might uphold what Judge

Cannon did. If you got a mixture of Trump appointees and non Trump appointees, maybe you get a legitimate ruling. Maybe you don't. So that's why I say, no matter what DJ did, it was going to be a gamble. But what they did was in the most diplomatic way possible. They're like, Judge, we would like you to reconsider this piece, but you know what, you can go ahead and keep that piece of your ruling in play even though it really won't have an So I think it's a smart gamble. Okay,

So last question for you, what's the timeline here? What it like? You know, because we keep kicking this can down the road. Everybody is waiting with bated breath for Donald Trump's indictments to come. And I believe that regardless of this ruling, they still have a whole heap of evidence to be able to charge Donald Trump with and

roll out indictments. We have heard that the Department of Justice, whether or not this is true or just gossip, is going to wait until after the midterm elections, which is in you know, sixty sixty days are less to roll

out their indictment parade. What say you? You know, first of all, with respect of the timeline of the litigation in Florida over the Special Master and the classified documents, it's impossible to predict because this is completely within the discretion of the federal judges who are involved, both trial court and appellate court judges. And whereas I want to, you know, if we can go to Georgia for a minute. When you look at the way Judge Lee Master Lee

Master May, I'm forgetting her name. There's so many judges in the mix. Judge May is handling the Lindsay Graham litigation. She's like, bam bam, bam damn. Forty eight hours, dam another decision. Lindsay, you lose, you lose, you lose, go to the grand jury and testify. That's the way the

federal Judiciary judiciary ought to be operating. Now, whether that's the way the federal judiciary judiciary down in Florida operates or not in the judge canon Special Master Arena, I don't know, but that's what they need to do with respect to indictments. I'm almost angry each time I see a new criminal investigation into Donald Trump. Now it's his pack, right, And you know why not, because I'm upset that they're investigating yet more crimes by Donald Trump. But each one

seems to bring with it more delay. Oh, you gotta give DJ all the time you need to now investigate this new thing that should not result in the old things, all of the other crimes now being on hold for some reason. But it feels like with every new crime that's investigated, the old crimes, whether it's the campaign finance conspiracy with Michael Cohen, or the ten counts of obstruction of justice that Bob Muller found, or the insurrection, or

it's like, for God's sakes, indicte something. The way federal prosecutors do business, Danielle, is we indict something and then we build superseding indictments. We had charges, we had defendants, we had conspiracy counts. There is this insane, inexplicable paralysis. It looks like to me from the outside looking into the Department of Justice that you know has resulted in zero indictments, and now as you say sixty day pause, we know we typically don't indict anybody sixty days before

an election. That's not precisely the way DJ operates. There is an internal, unwritten norm, not a rule, not a law. It's the norm. We try not to take any overt law enforcement action that could interfere with the election or be perceived as political or partisan. First of all, Donald Trump ain't on the ballot, so there's no reason to pause your law enforcement activity for Donald Trump. It doesn't matter if that might have a ripple effect. That's not

a good reason to take a law enforcement pause. But there's another reason not to take a law enforcement pause. We have insurrectionists running for reelection. Think about the insanity of having insurrectionists running for reelection to Congress a sixty day election holiday, which will simply give them the opportunity to get re elected to more firmly entrenched themselves inside government so they can keep trying to kill us our

democracy from within. This sixty day Norman tradition might have had a place decades ago, it doesn't have a place in today's environment. Oh, Glenn, you know, I, just like you, patience has worn thin. I get excited by what we see and here, and then I just wait for the other shoe to drop. I think, like what most people think, and like what you've said, I think that Judge Cannon is going to not take the gift that she has been given. And you know, and we will just have

to see where this moves. But I will tell you that I believe that Georgia has moved from simmer to a slight boil, and I think that we are going to see the movement there before we see the indictment parade coming from the DOJ. That is just that is just my opinion, Glenn Kirshner. As always, we appreciate your time and insight, and we will pick this up again next week and see where we land. Appreciate you. I'll see you next week, Daniel. That is it for me today.

Dear friends, on Woke a f as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws, and take a closer look at how

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