Intersections of Faith and Queerness

this week. Today, we're gonna listen to my interview with Bishop Tanya Rawls, and I can't express to you how much I love this conversation. I particularly really enjoy having conversations with queer faith leaders because what the right has done is they have essentially separated tried to separate the queer community, the Democrats, progressives from religion right by saying that we are godless, by saying that we are an abomination, by using their Bible and using twisted words and rhetoric

as a way to disassociate us with faith. And that couldn't be further from the truth. And so in this conversation with Bishop Rawls, we talk about faith and being queer. We talk about what it means to hold on to faith in you know, times of darkness, and we get into such, you know, an amazing conversation about freedom, about justice, and about religion. And I really hope that you all

enjoyed this conversation. Coming up next, folks, I am very excited to welcome to OOKF Daily Bishop Tanya Rawls, who's a national faith leader and social justice advocate. She founded the Unity Fellowship Church in Charlotte and Sacred Souls United Church of Christ in Charlotte, North Carolina, and is founder and executive director of the Freedom Center for Social Justice.

A lot of titles, a lot of good work. I want to start off, Bishop Rawls with talking about the way in which Democrats, the left, progressives have ceded religion to the right. They've been able to claim religion, claim God right and around that claim, and what we've seen, particularly over the last nine years on Namaga supremacy, which is what I call Donald Trump's regime, is anything other

than godly. And I'm curious, from your perspective, as a faith leader who is also progressive, who also is fighting for social justice and freedoms, why do you think that we've allowed them to claim faith.

and that was in the South. And so I think many on the left before it was you know, after it was late, said oh yeah, the South is going to be important. Oh yeah, we do have to engage with some of these approaches people are taking to using faith as a negative tool instead of positive. There was a deep seated strategy that was pulled together by the right, and the very fact that we even use that word

the right, it was intentionally selected. So if you think about words like the right, the moral majority, all of this language that supposedly centers core Christian Christian principles, in reality, it was all part of a long game strategy to impact the hearts and minds and spirits of those who would be likely to vote for the right, and to make it seem like that those that do that are the most moral. That's the moral majority. We're the majority,

the moral majority. The other thing I think that got complicated was when activists really had, at some point, not all, but many, made a decision that we did not need the church to win. We don't need faith to win. We need good policies, we need strategies that move politicians. We need those things. But what they left behind was the voters right. So we as much as she is complicated, the church still has power and a lot of it.

Communities have power and a lot of it. What I think we on the left are grappling with is what to do with that. But we're pretty far down the road now and we're trying hard to And what the we that I'm talking about now is the broader progressive movement now owning Oh my goodness, Yes, faith is a piece and it isn't about It isn't about the quote unquote church. It is and this is the thing that people have to understand, It is about a mindset. I

had been baffled by two things recently. One is deep concern about what's happening in Gaza, yes, and no understanding about how any Christian person who claims to be Christian could support that behavior, could support that genocide in those atrocities, and people are doing it based on old Testament texts to suggest that the occupier has a right to somebody else's land. The other thing that has been troubling is the huge drop off or rejection that many of our

younger people are having in throwing. And I can't even say younger now anymore, because the churches have problems. Communities of faith have had problems, and so to say to the movable middle, believe in the church, believe in democracy. I have young people now who are telling me they considered voting Republican people that I would have never considered

the thought of thinking about it that way. What's most troubling is while faith got a lot of people, got the right, a lot of capital, what it also did was on the left I think really caused a break in our movement, because you have people that feel that faith is important in others who say, I reject all

of it. And so the thing the wright did was they never lost lockstep with each other there is no grappling someone I heard a post that was so good yesterday actually, and it was someone It was a commentator who said, the reason that people are voting for Donald Trump this time and are backing him and the fact that his popularity is growing with each indictment, They said, it's because, fundamentally, and this was a conservative talking fundamentally, we do not believe he lost, and many of us

believe he deserves a second chance.

is a liar, is an interesting tool of God. I don't know where we meet those people, Bishop, I don't know. And that's why I say thirty percent of the country is gone because you can't meet that type of cult like thinking with facts, because they are not answering to the same set.

fundamentally we felt the election was stolen. We felt that he was at the very least a narcissist and possibly a fascist or other things that I'm lord, I'm up here just saying all this stuff is early in the morning. But but what I will say is that has helped me understand the Republican position because what no one could say anything to many of us after we finished crying that would allow us to cross that bridge to say

I'm willing to support this president. It was just I think anybody can say to me, right, because I felt it was stolen, they feel it was stolen. There is nothing that supports that. We had a lot on the left to support it. The fact that strange things happened during Trump's first twenty sixteen that actually helped me for context. So, no, the goal isn't to go for that thirty percent. They're

not going to move. However, what is important is that we understand at the intersection that I opened with when I said, you know, I work at the intersection of faith and race, social justice, sexual entation, and gender identity to look at culture shift. That's a different kind of work.

It's not transactional. It's not let's go talk to our senator about this particular bill that's coming up or whatever, right, And that's a strategy that I don't know we on the left have been able to commit to as much in terms of staying together with those who can work with us to help move the needle. We're not going

to all agree on everything. I'm in the South, okay, I'm in North Carolina specific we have had to really learn how to and we don't definitely not have it locked, but we have to learn how to work with people that have fundamental differences on some levels but are solidly

and with us on others. And I think that's going to be important, and which is why I'm happy in terms of some of the things happening here at creating change because there's opportunities for us to be together with different minds.

and spiritual connection. And I wonder with the divide that you mentioned that we do have inside of the Democratic Party as we are seeing such atrocities and our human brains are trying to reconcile. How how how do we say that we're a country that stands up for democracy but this is but Gaza and genocide is what we're

funding with our tax dollars. How do we have a president currently that says that he believes in you know, justice and equity and yet is not at all in statements as it pertains to Gaza and Genese doesn't even utter the word Palestinian. Right, So when we see these things, I think that people in general humans struggle to make sense. And so when we can't make sense, right, we search

for faith. And so how do you see that playing into the next ten months of We have no idea how long these wars, multiple wars are going to be going on for. But what we do know is that this is the first time that we're watching it in real time. Yes, right, we're watching it in real time. We're not waiting for it to be filtered through one of a handful of news stations. We are watching it

with our own eyes on all of our devices. And I'm just I know that it's far gone, as you said, but it's just like, is there a way that we reclaim faith and connection and our and coalesce around our common humanity.

she being democracy. I don't like the word morality because it is it has been bastardized at this point. It is a word that is subjective and one that has been so misuse used that it's actually almost toxic at this point. So that said, we all have to imagine differently. I don't trust the systems that we're supposed to be built to make me safe. I'm a black out lesbian woman cis gender. These systems weren't built for me. These systems weren't designed for my people to thrive. And if

that's the case. Then what I'm excited about now, incredibly excited, is the ways that many activists, faith leaders, regular people walking down the street because of exactly what you said. We're trying to find that place, but we're also finding each other, those of us who are doing the grappling, we are finding each other. So if I were to use my faith talk, I would say spirit is drawing us one to another. I was not aware of your

podcast until I came to Creating Change. I came to Creating Change, so your podcast, and like, how do I not know this woman? How am I not engaging with her more deeply? That is happening globally? Actually right, and if we understand a move like that, the transformation that is going on and about to manifest in the next ten months is going to be revolutionary.

supremis are weaponizing. This is where I struggle and I am. You know, the listeners of my shows, they witness me go up and down and vacillate from we can do it to don't bother me. I'm going to stay in bed today.

they were doing. I didn't have to. You know, when I go and i'm talking truth to power, I'm not worrying about somebody waiting outside to stab me in my stomach. I'm not waiting for somebody to drag me to what I've been dragged to jail. But you know not, But but I'm not. I'm not. I don't. I don't have the fear that a dog is going to attack me. How did they dream? What? What did they have? What did what? What made mallion Wright Edelson believe that she

could actually create a fund to defend children? What? What? What in her history? Her background? They didn't have the history we have to pull from. We've got elders still alive who can help show a path. And I bring the word elder up because the other thing I think that we have greatly lost is the power of what comes through the words and experiences of our elders. Yeah,

they're light bearers. They hold lights. They help us to buck up when we want to lay down and our comfortable beds and say, my god, I worked for twelve hours today fighting in justice. It's like, yeah, they would have worked twelve hours fighting in justice and then clean Moss's house or ironed Missy's clothes to feed their children and still walk to work instead of catching the bus. Right. So,

I think we've gotten a little soft personally. Privilege will do that, and if we are not able to own that, it's going to be problematic. This is hard work. This is work that requires sacrifice. This is work that requires us to put ourselves out there and risk something and I don't know that a lot of people are willing to risk I don't know that a lot of people

are willing to cross generational lines. I don't know if you know how many are willing to cross lines to trans people, to gay and queer people, to the disabled community. But again, the spirit is moving and it is drawing us. It's not for me to work with everybody. Yeah, but I can tell you when I do fine tribe, I recognize tribe. I've met white tribe and I've met black folk. It's so far not my tribe, you know what I'm saying. So the it's more complicated because back in the day

it was black and white. That's not our truth anymore. So this is where imagination comes. We're having to now think about ways to work with people we never thought we'd even be in conversation with. We're having to grapple with what it means to own our own biases. I have to push past some of my stuff. I have to do. I got a good therapist, you know what

I'm saying. Because I want to note that too, because to your point, and you've referenced the mind several times, you don't do this stuff and not get damaged on some level, right, if you're not careful.

I think that in many ways we have gotten solved. I think in many ways, like if I'm real with myself, would I have been walking twenty miles to work? Probably not right in order to you know, see through a boycott, right, Like I think that we have to meet ourselves and the moment where we are. But where I'm concerned is with this lingering sense of despair and hopelessness that seems to be taking control and hold over every generation, over every group, so much so that I hear rumblings of

people saying, well, I am not going to vote. It's not this, you know, Biden is not aligned with my values. I am not going to do X, Y, and Z, and I'm thinking to myself, Oh, so you just want to be in the camp then, right, Like, what does this look like for you? So what do you say to that?

in reference to this. One is creating increasing numbers of safe spaces where people can come and grapple together, increasing number of spaces that celebrate joy in a time when it is difficult. I have to do things intentionally to bring joy into my life because of the nature of

my work. Right, I am clear that everybody somebody when they were talking about I'd heard someone say something negative one time about Al Sharpton, and I'm talking about I'm from New Jersey, from Northern Jersey, so I'm talking about Al Sharpton. That would be in the sweatsuit and curlis in his Hey, I'm talking about that Al Sharpton, okay, And they were comparing him to Jesse Jackson and saying how they felt kind of ashamed about the way that

Al was showing up versus Jesse Jackson. And the best response I ever heard of that was someone saying, you don't wear a suit to go to the bottom of the barrel. And those who go down to the bottom of the barrel to stir up the dirt to reveal the stuff, the crud that's down there, they said, that's the work. That's OL's work, and he does it well. And they said, and we need Jess though, because by the time it gets to Jesse, Jesse skimming the residue

off the top. Come on, And I'm saying, I'm giving that to say, you have the people who would have rejected Jesse and who would have rejected Al, but we needed Jesse and Al. And so if there are also increasing ways that we can validate more of the spectrum, and in our world now that has to also be multiracial, multi issue. You know, it was a little bit of a simpler time when all I had to do was fight against everything that's anti black. Well, I want to

talk about the stuff this anti woman. I want to talk about the stuff that's anti choice for what happens to my body and women like me and everybody voting against that isn't my right to choose? Isn't somebody on the far right right? So this is where I talk talk about imagination. We have to be able to open our minds up more and know that there is a

spectrum that we do not have a container for. We don't have the rights container, and I'm happy about that actually, but we do have to find a way of being able to harness the amazing power, the incredible strength, the resilience that is our community. And the hour I'm speaking about isn't even so much just progressive versus conservative, because there are conservatives that I do share some views with. Right. This is why we have to be so careful about

how we do some things. But at the end of the day, we have to get unapologetic about being full throated in reference to the things we don't want, we will not accept, and that we do want right And everybody's not going to do all those things. It's not for everybody to do all the things. We need a jesse and we need it now. And we need to get behind those who are doing that work, not judging just because we don't like their hair color. Today, Who the heck cares, it's their body. Let them do what

the heck they want to do, right. But what I do care about is if you're impacting whether or not my grandchildren and great grandchildren get a good education. I ain't gonna stand by and watching mess that up. So hope can be restored. That's the good news. The good news is hope can be restored. And I am believing for a nation that enables us to build not only hope, but freedom and justice for all.

walk on f I do. And I wanted to say the whole thing. I don't even like having this. Can I say it one time? I love woke as fuck and I'm gonna be acknowledging that everywhere, and I think I want to say the whole thing. I thank you.