Icebergs Ahead

in Trouble, streaming November seventeenth only on Hulu. Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Okay Epp Daily with Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Because you know the toe, COVID and mass shootings. Nonetheless, folks, I have started to ask a question that you're going to hear me ask today's guest Robert Jones Jr. Who is the author of the Profits and if you remember we had Robert on I want to say the beginning of this year.

It could be the end of last year. Time. It's a social construct. But the question that I'm asking, and I just post it on TikTok and again, if you're not following me on TikTok or on TikTok it's a wonderful way to waste time. But also there's a lot of really good political content on TikTok. So at Danielle Moody Underscore is how you can find me there everywhere else you can find me on social media at D

two cents. But the question that I've been asking is do people feel like it is time to start seriously considering leaving the United States? And I don't say that to be hyperbolic or to come from a place of privilege, because the freedom and the financial ability to be able to pick up and leave is a privilege. And I asked Robert, and I'm kind of asking a lot of folks this Pride season, particularly those that are black and queer, about whether or not it's something that they're even considering.

And a lot of people, I'm really surprised and also alarmed, are coming back to me and saying yes, that they are considering leaving, that they are beginning to do research on what it means to be an ex pat in certain countries and communities. And for those of you who've been listening to the show for a long time, you know that my sister has been an ex pat for the last twelve years. She's returning to the United States in June for the first time to live in twelve years.

She's coming back to a really different country than the one that she left. The one that she left had just elected a black man to be President of the United States. The country that she left was advancing in so many different ways, whether it had been marriage equality, or trans rights or women's rights. We've been moving forward.

And of course, you know my sister Nicole, she comes back and forth to the United States every year, so it's not like this as a shock, but it's just to say that while she's been gone and living abroad, the United States has changed drastically and changed drastically for

the worse. And you know, I am somebody who's not afraid, as you all know, to tell the fucking truth and to say, you know, there are some times when I'll say things that I've said over the years which woke af began because of Trump, began because I saw the direction that this country was willing to head post our reconstruction. To point out, which is what I will refer to as the Obama years, I started woke af because I said,

people need to wake the flock up. Like these people, these white supremacsts, these Christian fundamentalists, these cult members, They're not going quietly into the good good night. They are going to go clawing and screaming, and they want to cause as much fucking harm as possible physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually to those that they don't deem to be

human or worthy right to exist. And so when you see that the direction that things have taken is it has moved so far from rhetoric to policy to acts of violence that we are now losing the ability to keep track of because they are happening so frequently. What

alternative do you see? And so that's the question that I'll ask Robert, and it's a question that I'm asking myself, and I'm having conversations with my own family about you know, I don't want you to think that I am, you know, being crazy, or you don't think that things are going to get this bad. But there was a small, significant time period in which the people of Germany fled right where they fled because they saw what was happening to

their country. They saw what Hitler was doing, and they did not want to stick around to find out how bad it was going to get. And those are people who lived right, who didn't end up in concent dying in concentration camps, or you know, being able to survive that kind of torture. We're not going to have the world intervene in the way that the world, first of all, took six million Jewish people to fucking die before the

world did intervene. And if we're probably honest about it, it was more so about the economic prosperity of Europe and the United States then it was the actual lives of those that were being targeted Jewish people and others.

So if we are now a backsliding democracy, if there are only but a handful of actual strong democracies that are left in this world, and we are seeing each and every day and increase in mass shootings, our schools are not safe, our places of worship are not safe, our grocery stores are not safe, the movie theaters are not safe. COVID is still a thing, racial hatred is growing, and the Democrats who are supposedly in power are not going to do anything about it. Then what is our recourse?

And for me right now, it is starting to think about where else can I live and where else can I thrive. My conversation with Robert, we will talk about James Baldwin and how James Baldwin left the United States because there was going to be no way that he was going to be able to write and create and to even imagine what it was that we needed to do as a nation if he had to be worried

about his own day to day survival. Right, So I think about that as a creative I think about the way I feel so weighed down now, and we haven't

tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole yet. We're in a free fall, but we haven't hit the rock bottom, And so I think about how exhausted I am, how I'm worried about my own mental health, how I've been sharing on this show and others about my mental and emotional stability, an ability to continue to do this type of work when it isn't just reporting the news, right,

this is what we are all currently live from. So there's no way to do this work and be detached from it when every fiber of my being is attached to our ability to have equity in this country, so you know. Funny enough. On TikTok, I had asked you the question as well. So many people responded and have said that they are looking at Uruguay, South Africa. Portugal came up a number of times, and I'm like, what is it you all know about Portugal that I don't.

I've been to Portugal. It was absolutely beautiful. I loved it. I love the food. The country is gorgeous. I don't know anything about how to speak Portuguese. I don't know anything about the treatment of black people in that country, their laws around LGBTQ people. I know nothing. But I thought it was really interesting that in my comments section

that so many people had said Portugal. So if you know something about Portugal, please do share if you why you think it is a safe haven and why it's on your list of places to go, if it is in fact on your list. But folks, you know, the more people that I talk to, the more worried I'm becoming.

The more worried I'm becoming that I'm not hyperbolic, that maybe this ship doesn't turn around right, that maybe we actually are on the Titanic and what Democrats are doing is just rearranging the deck chairs and not recognizing that the iceberg is the Republican Party, and the water that is being taken on by the Titanic, which is America, is white supremacy, and that it is everywhere, and Democrats are refusing to acknowledge this very clear reality. Instead, I heard, oh,

we're going to focus on inflation and gas prices. Okay, that's great, because those issues are important. But do you know what else is important? The ability to go to the gas pump and to the grocery store and not be shot dead. Just an idea. So you know, folks, I am worried. And you know, it's interesting because we are watching the war still unfold in Ukraine at the hands of Russia, and we're watching some of these people that have decided to stay and fight and others that

have fled. And you know, those people that fled may never see their country again. Right, They may never step foot in Ukraine, and if they do, it will not be the Ukraine that they left. And I'm starting to think that way about America. And while we are not under rolling tank attacks, we are under rolling policy attacks. And while some have referred as Michelle Goldberg did in a recent New York Times off ed as US being in a cold war with the Republicans. I don't think

that there is anything cold about this war. It isn't just a war of words. They are instituting policy, and they are ginning up their base, which is a base of violent white supremacist to take action. Right. The insurrection wasn't a mistake for them. It was plan B. And Plan B is still on the table and still unfolding. So if we know all of these things to be true, then what is going to be that thing that sends us over the edge where we begin to see a

mass exodus from this country? And personally, I don't want to wait until I have to sneak out of the country because our freedom of movement is gone. So listen to the conversation coming next with our friend Robert Jones, Junior, author of The Prophets and brilliant, brilliant intellectual thinker of issues of race and gender, sexual identity, orientation, and just overall a humanitarian, someone who thinks about us as humans. But again I post the question for you, what would

it take for you to leave the United States? Is it's something that you're even considering and if it is in the back of your mind, what is it that you think would move it to the forefront. Coming up next, my conversation with Robert Jones Jr. It's no secret that the news is horsepill hard to swallow. Thankfully, there's The Bituation Room podcast, hosted by comedian and commentator Francesca free

Erntini for a lighter take on the heavy stuff. Each week, The Bituation Room brings you progressive comedians, experts, and activists to break down the issues in a way that won't just leave you crying under a weighted blanket. Get The Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and streaming on YouTube and Twitch. Hey, I'm David. Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to

sort through all the noise and the news. Each week on the Gapfest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlon and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree, we definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. So subscribe to Slate's Political Gapfest New episodes every Thursday. Folks, I am so happy to welcome back to Woke a f friend of mine in the social sphere. You probably know him

as Son of Baldwin on Twitter and on Instagram. Robert Jones Junior is also the author of The Prophets and one of the most profound voices I think that I have heard and read in quite some time that paints a picture of our humanity that I think is so missing now. Robert, I don't even know where to begin, because so much has transpired since our last conversation. I am grateful for the opportunity that we get to share our thoughts in social media, you know, on different platforms,

back and forth. But how are you feeling this season, this Pride season? What are you feeling as a black queer man in America right now? About where we are and who you are? Well, first of all, the legendary icon Danielle Moody, thank you so much for having me your show. I was telling you before that you, to me are the vital voice of this generation. You are saying the things that no one else is saying. You're approaching the truth which with such rigor and vigor. So

thank you for all that you're doing. How I feel as a black queer person right now is under siege but also filled with the spirit of resistance. What sums up my resistance? In fact, I just saw on Instagram the US Marines posted a pride post. It was a camouflage helmet with rainbow bullets attached to the side of the helmet. And that is the danger of being a black queer person in a white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. They find ways to make you like them so that your

what was normally your resistance becomes your complicity. And so I'm fighting against that internally and externally. You know, I saw the image. The image was shared with me, the military image that you're talking about, and I said, my goodness, the tactlessness. Right Like, First of all, you know, that image was put up in Tulsa. Hadn't happened yet, the shooting at the hospital hadn't happened yet. But I thought to myself, this is not what my pride looks like.

And this is not how you show um, how you show your connectedness to community or even lift up those LGBTQ plus military members. Right it's talking about Oh, it's gonna be murder, but let's make it rainbow. I like, in my mind, like, that's that's what I saw. It's like, oh, it's gonna be white supremacy. But let's disc go it

up a bit. And so I ask you, you know, pride initially started as a riot, right It was black queer people, black trans women who were at the forefront of the riot that happened at Stonewall here in New York where we are, because they had had enough of being beaten, of being abused by the state right that they were supposed to protect them. And so what do you feel about the way in which pride started those

many decades ago? And where you see that pride, the concept of pride has arrived at the moment that we are in now. When I think about Marcia and Sylvia and all those elders and ancestors who threw bricks through windows and resisted arrest and we're fighting in the streets literally for their lives against a state that didn't even recognize their humanity, I am inspired to do what I can as an artist to remember uplift and remind the society that what liberation looks like is not always pretty.

It's not always clean. It's not always holding hands and singing songs. Sometimes it's punching your oppressor dead in his face. That's what it is sometimes. And you talk about this a lot too, when when we're talking about how weak the democratic opposition to the conservative agenda has been, how no one is saying like what needs to be said. No one's saying the obvious, no one's telling the truth.

The Democrats are playing tiddly winks while the Republicans are playing destroyal monsters like it's it's just this weird kind of thing. And so when I see now that pride has become a T shirt, a party, rainbow floats, and a commodified event, Marcia and Sylvia must be rolling in their graves because the spirit of resistance seems to have been co opted and turned into this thing where it's now.

We will accept you, you homosexuals, you transgender people, if you're more like us so, if you consume rapidly, if you agree with our militarized agenda, global agenda, if you uphold conservative values, if you buy into our way of seeing the world, then we might because at any moment we can turn on you, like this Supreme Court is letting us know um and that is that is how revolutions are destroyed, is because the people in power recognize um a need and some of the people who are

oppressed for a little bit of comfort, Yeah, a little bit of a reprieve yea, And they offer it to you, They dangle it in front of you like a carrot, in exchange for your dignity and your right to be a full human person as you are. And so I'm utterly disappointed. Do you think that our desire for ease in a certain way, right for ease in our lives? And I'm not saying that we're not deserving, just by virtue of our birth to live a life that is joyful,

that is that is happy. But do you think that this sense of ease has fueled the assimilation that has us not see the current iteration of our society as a point of resistance for our community? Right that that that that's that that that and and if you if you just have enough, right, because that's what that's what you're saying, like that carried it's just enough. Right, It's not too much, it's not it's sure, it's hell, it's

not the most It's just enough. For you, so you're not drowning if your nose is sticking out of the water and there is still air to breathe. And I'm wondering, how do you foresee or is there a possibility for us as the LGBTQ plus community to make a switch, to make a transition from this assimilation and life of ease to that of resistance. You see, you, you, you tackle the you ask the essential question because this is the danger of proximity to your oppressor. On the one hand,

you're close enough for them to destroy. On the other hand, you're close enough to them so that you might escape being destroyed because you're too close to them and they don't want to possibly be a residual damage. So you're in this weird place where you don't want to suffer. You're tired of suffering, You're you're exhausted from suffering, and you've been offered this brief moment of reprieve. So what do you do? Do you continue to suffer or do

you take that brief moment of reprieve? Most people, I wager will take the brief moment of reprieve, and that is what the oppressors, the powerbrokers these robber barons count on is that you are. They have so thoroughly exhausted you that the minute they lay down a piece of a pillow for you to lay your head on, and you're gonna lay your head on it. It takes somewhat of impeccable um personality to say, you know what, fucked that pillow? Because if I keep fighting, eventually I'm going

to have the whole bed right. And there's there's too

few of us, you know. I was a couple of weeks ago was in conversation with another thought leader that I really enjoy speaking with, which is doctor Brittany Cooper, uh, associate professor at Rutger's, And we were talking about you know, her or her family, uh and her and gun culture in Louisiana where she um was reared and raised and her family still is, and the need for this kind of protection for black people, black family's, black property because

of the consistent, unrelenting threat of white supremacy and what that looks like in different states and cities and places in rural places and cities. And so I'm curious as to your thoughts about every time Robert, there is a mass shooting, gun sales in this country go up. The only time that we ever had any kinds of genuine, sensible gun regulation was when the Black Panthers decided to exercise their right to bear arms. What do you make

of black people, black queer people as well? Thinking about considering the fact that we've moved out of the talking phase of this project, and that in order for me to ensure to some extent my own safety, and those are the people that I love. If my oppressor is bearing arms, isn't it my responsibility to do the same. Absolutely, I feel that we cannot. We can. No longer we shall overcome our oppressor into thinking of us as civilized

human beings. I just saw a clip of James Baldwin speaking of queer icons where he said, you know what white people mean by progress is how fast I become white. And then he goes on to say, I've drank my share of dry martiniz, I've proven myself civilized in every way that I can, and you still don't see me as civilized. So I might as well act like a nigger. And what I interpreted that to mean was you want to pull a gun, then I'm gonna pull a gun. Two I'm gonna pull two guns just to show you.

So if the only language you can speak is violence, even when I'm speaking to you with peace, you leave me no choice. And if we are in a situation increasingly such that their feel feels like our choices are shrinking and are becoming limited and scarce, where do you foresee Robert us going right? Because my thing, what I've been saying, and what I say on my videos, what I say on these shows, is that a pressure, the oppressor goes for the low hanging fruit first, the people

that they believe are the unwanted. So you're gonna go after trans youth, right, you big bade straight cis gender white man are going to go and attack children, right, You're gonna go and attack policies of people, not the entirety of the LGBTQ community, but the part that we are still quote trying to figure out right that doesn't

really fit anywhere, which is a transgender community. And so if that is the case, then it's like, and they keep picking off marginalized, marginalized, it's not too long before they get to everybody else. And so how do you forstee through your art through all of these different mediums waking up the public to the threat that is now our doorstep. One of the horrible things about being an American is the profound narcissism of that identity come on

that we cannot see outside our own experience. For nothing in the world, we lack empathy, and so we don't understand a threat until it's on our own doorstep. We could see it across the street and swear it's not going to come our direction. We could see it in the street, we could see it walking up the sidewalk, and we won't say anything until it's right at our doorstep, and then suddenly we're like, oh my god, what happened?

What I foresee in this country is rather bleak. I think it's not going to be five or ten years before the United States as we know it crumbles, and that it's replaced by a fastest oppressive openly so because now it's kind of like on the on the d L in some respects, where people like you and I, the people at the margins, black people, queer people, trans people, disabled people will be seen as ultimately disposable, if not re enslaved, and you are the clarion call and That's

why I point so many people into your direction, because you have this uncanny ability to connect all the dots to show how the dominoes fall. And I feel like you have been screaming into a void because I'm like, is anybody else listening to how Danielle is tying all of these things together to tell us what's coming? And that's why I share your stuff so often, because I'm

trying to get people to wake up. But I don't know any other way than saying it and telling the truth out loud to get people to wake up to people who want to be asleep. You know, one of the things that I have been thinking about, Robert, is the fact that James Baldwin ancestor Baldwin left this country because he could not find himself under duress with the clearness of mind, to be able to create, to be

able to discuss what was happening. Because when you are in it and survival is your is your only hope, how can you see anything else, let alone share those thoughts with others. And so he left. I want to know what you think about what you thought about his leaving right, and whether or not we write as this small collective of of of of black thought leaders, writers, artists, academics, activists. Is the writing on the wall for us? I would say, so, um,

you know. Initially, when I, you know, was doing my research on James Baldwin and learning about him and discovered that he left the country, I saw it as a kind of betrayal. Initial so did I, yep um, And I thought, well, why would you leave when you know what the community is dealing with here? But as I have grown up, as I have matured, I've come to

understand that it was necessary for him to leave. He could not have been so incisive, so clear about the American condition within the confines of America, because he would have been under assault at all times, and so his attention would have to be split between getting this work done and protecting himself from state forces. I have three of three friends in my circle and family in my

circle who have left the United States for good. My cousin Kaden is in Japan, my friend Will is in the United Arab Emirates, and my friend Tres in South Africa, and they refuse to come back. They said they cannot breathe in this country, that it is they feel under total menace when they are in this country and they are all now in these other places flourishing. I think of Sonya Renee Taylor, who left the United States and now she's in New Zealand and she's thriving. There is

something to be said about picking up and leaving. And I'm not saying that wherever we go is going to be perfect, it's going to be utopia, because there's no such thing. But there is something I believe to be said about escaping the land of your particular oppressor, who is unrelenting, who refuses to see your humanity, refuses to have any empathy, and doesn't know what compassion means. What do you think, Robert, that James Baldwin would say of

this moment? Because in my mind, now that he has passed, I look back at his writings, and actually right now the interview that he did, that Nikki Giovanni did with him many many moons ago, is now on stage in New York. But I think about the way in which he foresaw and would tell people in the way that I do, because much more, much more eloquent and articulate and less curse words than I offer. But what do you think that he would say would it be, and I told you so would What do you think he

would make of this moment? I'm so glad you asked me that question, Danielle, because toward the end of his writing career, the people who used to praise Baldwin began to really negatively criticize him and say things like he was bitter and repetitive. And I went back to those later works of his, not the ones that get all the attention, like The Fire Next Time such, but his later things like The Evidence of Things Not Seen, which

was his last published collection. Baldwin basically said, I have known these people for sixty years, Over sixty years of my life, I've been writing to them and boring them to please grow up, um, to please find compassion, to please be humane, and I have decided they're incapable of it. So he would exactly tell us right now, what did I tell you? If in fact these people are incapable, what does that say for the rest of us? Because we all can't leave. We all don't have the resources

the wherewithal to be able to leave. So if the diet, if the diagnosis is if I if I were a doctor and I'm diagnosing America, and I'm diagnosing the condition of whiteness, and I'm saying, well, this is it, right, You're in the fourth stage, right, this is this? You're you you this this illness is terminal? What is that? What does that say to the entirety of the product? Jack? Then it basically says, if you're not Harriet Tubman, you're screwed. So that means we are the ones of us who

can't leave. We are in danger, girl, That's what that means. And I hate to be so bleak about it, but I don't see any way out. I don't Maybe I just don't have the intellectual capability, I don't have the optimism. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't see a way out for those of us who can't escape. I see the longer we remain in this place, the quicker we are going to find ourselves in chains again,

wondering how the hell did this happen? Last question for you, Robert, and I just I mean, I honestly, I could talk to you all day because you make me feel sane. What are you doing to keep your wits about you? To keep your spirit? You know? High? And maybe it isn't high. Maybe it's just hovering, but how do you continue to provide self care for yourself when you recognize that everything actually is as bleak as we're saying that it is. You know, Danielle. What gives me hope are

people like you, And that's the honest truth. People who are so clear and walk with a complete knowing of who they are and the situation as it is, who suffers under no delusions. When I listen to you and your wonderful podcasts and all the work that you're doing, I'm like, there's got to be more Daniells out there somewhere. And if there's more Danielle's out there somewhere, then we can resist at least for a little while longer. And

then I go back, of course, to the ancestors. I'm rereading Morrison and Baldwin and Alice Walker and Gloria Naylor and Octavia Butler. Octavia Butler, as a matter of fact, is like an oracle. She was an oracle. Yep. So if you want to find if you want to prepare yourself for what's coming next, read Octavia Butler. So that's where I find my comfort, and the other thing that I do because the world is so ugly to bring

a little beauty into it is. I tend to gardens, So I like to garden, plant flowers and things like that, just to see something of beauty, to remind myself that it doesn't have to be this ugly. Yeah, I do the same. You can't see behind me, but my entire house is filled with a significant a significant amount of players.

Because they do they make they make me see that time goes on, things will continue to grow, the sun does come out, water does remain wet, and you know and that there is in nurturing and by nurturing them, it does help me with the healing of my heart that this country continues to break on a regular basis. Robert Jones Junior, thank you so much for making time

for Woke after making time for me. Thank you so much for your kind, beautiful words that you say about me, but that you write, that you write and that you offer to the world. I just appreciate you so much, and I wish you a really hopeful pride, one that reminds us of the people we came from and the work that's still ahead. All Shay, and thank you so much for having me Daniel, It is always a pleasure.

Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from The Daily Show Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a

closer look at how and why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. That is it for me today. Hear friends on Woke app as always Power to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke, as fu, stay well, Stay safe. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from

the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrifer ka to gun laws and take a closer look at how and why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday.