Gaping Inequality

quote unquote the way things are. And from the great resignation to the condemnation that comes at Generation Z for being quote unquote lazy they don't want to work hard. I've recognized something which is that every generation has its fight when it comes to how we work. Prior generations believe that you just keep your head down, you take the abuse, and that's how you ascend the corporate ladder.

What I recognize is that younger people have seen their parents and their grandparents be treated in a certain type of way. They've grown up with a lot of information and are just like, why would I work for this person? Why would I work for this company? Why would I work for this place that demeans me, that makes me feel small, where I feel like I'm living to work right, and you know, as somebody who has had the great fortune over the last few years to work for myself,

and it is not without its struggles. It's not without its headaches alike. For instance, you know, we have the market place here in New York that allows me to get health care, but the healthcare is pretty shitty, right, and that if I were employed by an organization or a company, then I would have great health care, depending on the organization or the company that I was working with. But it's sure as s buck would be better than what I'm paying for out of pocket. But there is

a level of autonomy. There is a level of ease in which I am able to work these days that wasn't the case four five years ago. So for me, I have made certain trade offs in being an entrepreneur, in being independent. While I watch some of my friends make tons of money because they are in corporate jobs,

but some of them are really miserable. And I think that what we learned during our time at the height of COVID would which is our time is not promised, right, like life can literally go in the blink of an eye, And so how do we really want to be spending our time, and if we're supposed to be in these jobs eight to ten hours a day, shouldn't there be some joy? Shouldn't there be some humanity that is centered

in them. And I'm not saying that work needs to be like one of your hobbies, but it shouldn't absolutely should not be a place that causes emotional and physical diuress.

And so the conversation that I have today bringing back our friend Kim Kelly, the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold Story of American Labor, to talk about the strikes that are ongoing, the Hollywood strikes with the writers and the actors, the UPS strike that was just diverted because the unions and the company came to an agreement that would provide UPS workers raises and air conditioning in

their fucking trucks. Right, because you know, think about the UPS delivery person who is working in say Oh, I don't know, Texas, Arizona, Florida, any of these places California that have seen extreme heat, and they're in an unair conditioned car for eight to ten hours a day. Right. So, when we look at the way that unions are having a moment again to try and create conditions that are

livable right for workers. And we think about the last three years and a lot of places having gone to hybrid work right, having downsized their commercial real offices and have allowed workers to work partly at home because guess what.

The great resignation came because people were just like, Yeah, I don't really have to do this job in an office five days a week, away from my family, away from friends, like locked in this cubicle, and not able to actually live my life, like go for a walk, run an errand make some food in the middle of my day. Now we know that just being fully remote doesn't work for a lot of people. It works for me because I feel like I talk to people all day long, every single day, so I don't actually need

to be in physical contact. The conversations that I have every day all day are enriching enough. But that's me right. And so the conversation that I have today with Kim Kelly is talking about work, talking about Generation Z and whether or not we are in the midst of a true movement, a true dynamic shift, or if this is

just another fleeting moment. That conversation with Kim Kelly is coming up next, Folks, I am so excited to welcome back to woke af Kim Kelly, who is just an all around badass when it comes to understanding American labor workers' rights, is the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History of American Labor and as a freelance journalist. Kim, It's like this summer has been this summer in a lot of way of strikes or potential strikes. In a lot

of ways. We have seen, you know, from three years ago, how COVID began, the initial shift, and how people work, how they see themselves as workers, how they see themselves appreciated or not as workers. And then now we are looking at a historic strike that is happening in Hollywood where writers and actors for the first time, I think in forty years, have linked arms to demand better from the studios and the networks. You had a ups strike

that was diverted. I think there is still a vote that is happening in that space, but there was an agreement that was reached and that was going to be devastating to the country in terms of deliveries. So I just want to open up with what is your feeling, what is the vibe that is happening right now in the American workforce.

Like as much as you know, the government numbers might look nicer to some people than they did a year or two ago, that's not filtering down to regular human beings. And I think so much of what's driving this wave of strikes that we're seeing that it's it's too expensive to be alive in this country right now. Too much money, too much capital, too many resources that have filtered out to the people at the top, the you know, CEOs

and corporations and rich politicians. And I'm sure like half of it went to Elon Musk while I was just talking right now, like there's just this gaping inequality it's impossible to ignore at this point and like you mentioned earlier, early in the pandemic, there was I think a very real shift in the way that people saw the value of their lives and their labor. And we had the

essential worker discourse. We had the Great resignation as it was called, when people were like, oh, I can maybe get a better job all of a sudden because the government actually helped out for like five minutes. You know, I think this shift is still very much in play. I think there's not really any putting that lightning back

in a bottle. I think that the way workers are seeing things now, especially after seeing all of the gains that have been made and the big contracts that are being secured, the big organizing efforts were seeing you know, all eyes around the team stairs for a while. I feel like that store was covered very closely, and the rhetoric that we heard from their leadership and from rack and file workers about you know, nothing gets done without

us need to win a historic contract. We need so much better, We need basic health considerations like air conditioning. I think just putting that into the public consciousness as much as it was that helped too. And you know, we're at this moment where a lot of people are on strike. A lot of very visible workers are on strike. You mentioned the Hollywood on strike situation, that is like that is a big deal, and not just because it's

you know, my union's one of the unions involved. I think one thing that is really kind of tipping the scale is that so many of these big strike actions we're seeing are hyper visible, like Hollywood one that's getting tons of attention, as it should, and people are paying attention to you know, these the funny protest signs, or the celebrities doing this, or the studio bosses saying incredibly evil stuff in a very public way, Like that's a big,

easy one to pay attention to. Meanwhile, you have Starbucks workers in multiple cities off on a bus tour and launching strike actions all the time. It's all very public and immediate. So I think folks that maybe necessarily wouldn't be reading labor stories or looking out for strike news,

you kind of can't avoid it. And I think that's having an impact on people's you know, just ability to imagine what is possible for themselves, Like if all these people are out on strike and they're not making that much money and they're not you know that privileged. Sure in the in the Writer's Guild and the Screen Actors Guild, some of them are doing fine, but even they're the minority, like most people are struggling. And I just think that hammered home.

And I think that this strike in particular has really changed how people see this industry, you know, as a whole. And I guess on that on that note, you're talking about how public things have been, and that in this moment people are just like set up. What is it about this moment in particular? Do you think that are having people set up?

famously cheap places to live. I mean, it's I think it really just comes down to that very basic feeling of this is bullshit, Like things that we're told we're living in this age of great prosperity, great economic you know, solvency, things are going great. But why am I not seeing that? Why is my neighbor not seeing that? Why is my

mother not seeing that? It just seems like there's a great disconnect between what we're being told to celebrate about, you know, the state of the Union, and what people are actually feeling. Like, Yeah, Mazrell is still like seven bucks of ball Let the act me in South Philly, and that impacts me. You know what I'm doing better

than some people are. It's I think just the rampant inequality in this country has gotten to such a brutal point that even folks who do work and have solid jobs are feeling the pinsion a way there's impossible to ignore.

is unrealistic. This is a man I just want to say again, he makes seventy five thousand dollars a day. He just had an extension on his contract with CBS and Disney for another I think two or three years, right, because he came in to quote unquote save the Day. He had signed that contract in two for two or three years at twenty six million dollars, right, and so he's it's extended, So he's getting another twenty six or

twenty you know whatever million dollars. So we're talking about the average writer making sixty nine thousand dollars a year and this CEO who makes seventy five thousand dollars a day telling folks that the requests that they have are unrealistic. What do you say to that.

hard work. What are all these little people complaining about? I think they just maybe you just lose your humanity once you become that rich. I cannot think of any other way that you could get like that and say something like that, or to say like we would rather starve them out than acquiesce to their incredibly reasonable demands and lose a couple million here and there of our profit, Like who do you think is doing all the work?

You would not have those millions, You would not have that nice house, you would not have that gold plated you know, healthcare plan without the people on the picket lines right now who are losing their healthcare, Like it is just I mean, I don't understand what is wrong with these people. Fundamentally. It's the same mentality that we heard from coal bosses in the Deep South who are trying to starve out coal miners last year in Brooklyn, Alabama.

It's just this, it's just so ugly and it's so disconnected, like you will like this great Man syndrome perhaps like oh well, nothing known, this would happen without me. You are the only person in this scenario who could be automated out of existence with AI in a reasonable way. Like you don't do anything. You make decisions about other people's lives, and for this you're paid, Like the GDP of a small nation. I think that is part of

what is fueling so much of the righteous anger. It's like, not only are the studios and their heads refusing to bargain in really in genuine good faith, they're refusing to listen their workers' concerns, They're refusing to acknowledge their workers. They're acting as though these workers who create all the value are a bunch of whiny little brats.

that AI is incredibly dangerous in the world. Like are we not paying attention? But we are a nation of people who don't pay attention. But one of the things that was said, and again just sticking on Hollywood for a moment, was Oh, we can get AI to do this will come in, We'll you know, to photograph your face.

We'll be able to use it into perpetuity. We'll be able to have, you know, to program said AI to create you know, the next friends or the next you know, living single, or the next like whatever, and you know, and you'll be out of a job. So you should be thankful and kissing our feet that you have one right now, because we see your replacement in the next

five to ten years. So what do you make of how the weaponization of technology to go against the actual human creative, content creator and builder.

I think my friend Brian Merchant just wrote a really brilliant new book called Blood and Machine, all about the Ludite uprisings in England and like it was like the seventeenth or eighteenth century way back, and it was so similar to what's happening right now in broad strokes because there was a class of talented workmen like artisans, weavers and spinners, people that created the thread and the fabric that became closed that you know, they had a whole

cottage industry. People had good jobs, they had a whole cultural tradition of doing these jobs. And then machines came in and the factory owners started bringing these machines and cutting their word and taking away these people's jobs. And the way that those workers responded was by smashing the machines and launching an entire movement to destroy the machines that were destroying their way of life. And it took the entire force of the British government to put that

rebellion down. And I'm not saying we need to be going into where you know, tech offices and smashing their algorithms, but I'm not not saying it. You know, just because we can does not.

the lack of resources that they have? Right, So you are mass producing all of this ship and you've put millions of people out of work. Who is buying it?

And I don't know, maybe, but maybe not. Like, just because we have the technological ability to change things, we need to make sure that we're focusing on the human aspect first, because otherwise who is it for? And like you said, who's going to be able to buy all of this cheaply produced content, these cheaply produced goods, if no one has a job anymore, it's just very it feels very shortsighted, even in the most cynical capitalistic way.

Like if you want to have a market to exploit, if you want a product to sell to people, if you want there to be consumers for you to make money off of, they need to have money and they're not going to have any money if they don't have a job, because that's the way things are set up. By embracing AI and automation to the extent that they seem to be hinting at, they're just kind of automating themselves out of a market too. So who even wins besides the robots?

giving teachers any more money. So there's a massive shortage that we're seeing across the country. It's the same way that COVID tapped out the medical and the health industry with people being like, yeah, I don't actually want to do this anymore. Right, it is a thankless in many ways, had turned into a thankless kind of position and job and so and recognizing that this pandemic that we you've had is probably not going to be the last one. Given us how we've seemed to learn nothing right over

the last three years. And so when you see these different pockets, right, whether it's help, whether it's education, whether it's entertainment, whether it is you know, truck drivers and factory workers and all of these similar things, like where what do you think can good? I should say, can come from this moment.

But I think that right, because shit's grim. But I think the most valuable lesson that we're learning, or that people are learning about themselves, is that they deserve better, you know, the that they should not have to put up with this ship, that they should not be effected to, you know, pull a full Victorian orphan and say please, or may have some more for like their five dollars paycheck after some parents spit in their face for teaching history,

you know, like, I think it goes back to people being fed up because they they know that they're worth more than this and they deserve better. And I think that is something that is fueling this this rise in organizing and striking and you know, worker organizing outside of the union structure, because people realize that I shouldn't be expected to live like this. I am valuable, my skills are valuable, my personhood is valuable, and I'm not being

treated as though those things are true. So what can I do about that? And for a lot of people, it seems like that answer has been Okay, let me talk to my coworkers, let me talk to my neighbors, let me talk to some folks on my block, and try and organize and change that, because I think so many people have just been beaten down and isolated and

felt as though they got mad. And one of the only existing mechanisms we have to combat that is organizing and building collective power and taking care of our neighbors and our coworkers, because we know nobody else is they just want to automate us out of existence and make it as if we never were here in the first place. Oh, I think, yeah, that's what gives me hope that people are realizing just how much they're worth and how much better they deserve.

What do you make of their understanding of labor and capitalism and how that is going to shift culture in in in in the workforce.

generation anymore. But but I'm so proud of them and inspired by them and fascinated by them because it seems like the increased access to information and fluidity with digital systems and technology, that's that's an asset, right, Like having a worker come into your place of employment who is not going to allow themselves to be trampled on or her ass who's going to advocate for their rights and their coworkers' rights, who can open the PDF for you

and are willing to learn like that seems like an ideal worker for me. We are far past this idea of you know, the you work in one place your entire life and you retire with a gold watch and a pension. Who that's the fairy tale. At this point, those jobs aren't there, and if they are, they're not there for the vast majority of us. Therefore, a guy's name Jeff who went to Harvard, and I don't really

care what happens to those guys. The thing that I really love about gen Z too, that I see online, which is really where I interact with them because I fear them, you know, is just how loudly and unequivocally they've embraced labor and organizing really, the way that they've honed in on how intersectional so much this organizing needs to be. You know, the same kids, well not kids, the same young people who are organizing their workplaces are

also marching for racial justice. They're also calling out the Supreme Court for destroying our lives constantly, are also standing out for their queer and trance coworkers whenever possible, Like it's all so connected. That's something that I tried to convey in my book. That's something that I think really fuels this current moment in labor, at least the good parts, the parts that are moving, you know. Just realizing how

connected we all are. That's something that is not unique to the younger generation, but it seems much more common among them. Realizing that, you know, abortion is a worker's issue, transrid to a worker's issue. You know, it's all everything's a worker's issue. The climate crisis is definitely a worker's issue.

a site to see. And they've already begun to shift culture in terms of yeah, I don't want to work like this, right, Like I don't want to work in this oppressive you know, fashion and you know, and we shouldn't have to, right, And so just because you did it in a generation before me, this is the right of passage. Shouldn't be work or abuse. And that's what a lot of us, I think, have experienced throughout our time.

If we really think back, and we're just like, oh, wow, I was aggressively taken advantage of when I was twenty five years old, right, and didn't know anything about you know, about the organization or the company that I was in. Right, And so given that, it's like, well I went through it, you should go through it, and it should be like, no, we should actually want better.