Does Justice Matter?

States fucking continues. The New York Times has reported that, oh, along with packing up i'm sure all of his McDonald's rappers and packages and red fucking ties, that he also happened to pack up a bunch of you know, top secret documents and information that should have remained with the National Archives, and that the National Archives apparently has been negotiating with Donald Trump for over a year now in

order to get those you know, documents returned. I'm going to get into a conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner, and you know, I will tell you that in the year, in the two years that we have been in regular conversation with Glenn, Glenn has always been my He's always

been my beacon. He's always you restored my faith that we need to keep pushing forward and that you know, justice indeed matters, and that it will prevail, even now though Glenn is beginning to look around and wonder what the hell is going on with the Department of Justice.

The Department of Justice when they walked in, had all of the documentation from the Muller Report, had all of the documentation that had been done over the last four years of the Trump had been stration that they could have rolled out indictments after Joe Biden had put his hand on the Bible and became the forty the forty six president of the United States, but instead they decided

not to. And we'll have a conversation today about how this administration, Department of Justice, and both parties, Democrat and Republican, continue to want to turn the page on the Trump administration and on the one six insurrection. And I'm saying, how the fuck did we get here when we're the only ones right, the citizens of these United States are the only ones that actually still give a damn about justice, that give a damn about accountability. So, on one hand,

you have Republicans that want to turn the page. They don't want the RNC to bring up the fact that, you know, they believe that one six was rightful political discourse, justifiable, political discourse. They want to be able to move forward

so that they can once again take power. We're not as a way to advance, you know, the American people, not as a way to ease our day to day lives, but so that they can, you know, have their moment in the sun to reactivate their long standing grudges against Democrats for having the audacity to want to hold the forty fifth president of the United States to account for

his fucking crimes. Right, and so instead of pursuing policy that would help our lives be at easier for us to come to the table as a more equitable and just society. We know what Republicans are going to do right when they get the gavel back, and so that's the reason why they don't. They want to turn the

page right and move forward. But then you have Democrats, who we all stood out and fucking line for risk our lives at the height of a health pandemic in order to vote in accountability and responsibility, also wanting to turn the page because they want to talk about bigger agenda and bigger plans for the American people. Folks, I

can tell you that there is no bigger agenda. Then ensuring that the rule of law is not just for those that have no money and those that are marginalized or those that don't have the right kind of complexion, right, too much melanin in order to be seen as innocent

before guilty. Right, that the rule of law in this country is something that, regardless of Donald Trump's attempts and the attempts of this cult the Republican Party, that we would in fact make sure that people in this country have a restored faith in their Department of Justice, in their government to do what's right even when it is uncomfortable. Now we know right now that Republican's new favorite word is discomfort. We don't want white people to feel uncomfortable.

We don't want white people to have to come face

to face with their own fucking book bullshit. Right. So this is where we are where I will say, and you'll hear in this interview with Glenn where I'm just like you know, are we at a place where we as a collective right should just issue civil lawsuits against Donald Trump for the abuse and the assault on the people of these United States, Like if our Department of Justice is no longer in a position or has the desire to ensure that justice does prevail, then what is

the responsibility or what is the ability of the American people to do what our electeds won't Because you see, folks, we are careering, careening towards the end of our democracy. We all know this, we feel it, we sense it, we know where mid term elections are going to go. Now, I will continue right to tell folks, register to vote, make sure your names are on the role, do all

of those things. But at the end of the day, if you are not creating the guardrails, if you are not making sure that my vote is actually going to count, and instead you are doubling down on jerrymandering, and then Democrats are only tap dancing for your vote every four years. But black and brown person, when we get into office, we ain't gonna do shit for you. How do we think that it's going to continue moving forward? Right? How do we think that this country is going to continue

moving forward? So you know, I will say that the times are deeply precarious. The road that we are on

is not one that frankly I saw coming. And you know, and I will say and offer that every single time that I see Donald Trump's name in headlines, every single time that yet there is another another way in which he has manipulated this country where he has torched our political norms, where he has operated like teflon don being above the fucking law, and that no one bothers to want to do the hard work of making sure that he is held responsible and accountable for his crimes. I

want to scream. I want to scream because if I know that how I'm feeling, and I'm a person that is highly engaged right in politics, then how do we think that folks who aren't listening to wokeiak who are trying to go back to quote unquote normal, how do we think that they are feeling about our body politic right now and our democracy. There are too many times when I'm getting on the phone with folks and they're like, yeah,

I stop watching the news. I don't care anymore. I care about what's happening inside my own home, inside of my own block, inside of my own community, whatever else is happening. Go with God. That's the conversations that I'm having with people who in fact, had dedicated their lives to public service and who are now saying, nah, I don't think so. So you know, I can't pretend to say that I have all the answers, because I don't. I have more questions. I have more questions about what

the fuck Democrats are actually doing. I have questions about what it is that Joe Biden thinks that he's going to get done, being as how he's gotten very little done in his first year and by the time that we get to midterms, his first two years that he has gotten very little done. What does he think is going to happen when Republicans take control of the House

and possibly the Senate. Does he think that he's going to be holding these like White House summits and they're not going to try and impeach him and hold ridiculous, highly publicized hearings to do what pull another Benghazi, but this time Benghazi on crack. I don't know where their heads are at, folks, but I will say this about where my head is at, is that we need to really start focusing on the local level. We need to start focusing on the things that we can control, on

our school boards, on our city councils. Right, if you have even the smallest inkling to run for office, any office, I say go and do it. Right, because it is going to take all of us taking matters into our own hands in order to get things done in this country. Because what we realize, what I have realized over the last several years under Donald Trump and now with Biden, is that our elected officials do not apparently have an alarm bell that goes off in their heads. They have

no sense of urgency. They think that, like the majority of Americans, want to do the right thing. And I'm telling you, given the opportunity to not do the right thing and face absolutely no fucking consequences for it, that's what they will choose. So the difference is, now, folks, what are we choosing? Because I don't want us to just lay down and fucking take it whatever it is that either one of these parties are dishing out right,

which is either disappointment or disrespect. So coming up next is my conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner to walk us through the latest bullshit stinking up Mara Lago and continuing to plant a stain on our nation's democracy. Good morning, friends, it is another day in America where Donald Trump is getting away with yet another crime. Could we leave our homes knowing that there was top secret documents there that belong to the National Archives, that belong to the federal government.

Could we walk around committing crimes left and right, surrounding ourselves with people who need to plead the fifth over a hundred times when interviewed about their relationship ship with me with the administration. No, no, we couldn't. But another day in America reveals to us what that Donald Trump can do no wrong. That the name that he received in New York during his time as a real estate mogul, and I put that in quotations, being called teflon don Yeah,

nothing sticks. So to walk us through the latest once again, is our friend Glenn Kirshner, MSNBC legal analyst and the host of Justice Matters. Glenn, I gotta ask you, does justice matter as it pertains to Donald Trump? It does it? I mean, at this point should we even care? Or should we just continue about our days? Danielle I made a very exasperated video yesterday after the latest revelation about Donald Trump whisking away to Marrow Lago classified materials in

violation of yet another teral statute. And we can talk about it in a minute, But I said, you know, we the people are out here abiding by the laws of the United States, and I think it is deeply disrespectful of us that high government officials have violated countless federal laws victimize the people of the United States, and they're prancing around footloose and fancy free. So I think justice matters to us. I think if we care about our nation, justice has to matter it timely. Justice does

not matter to the Department of Justice. And you know it's one of the three words in the title, Department of Justice. And yet I don't think anybody can argue with a straight face or in a fact based way that there has been timely justice for what we have endured, this unabated crime wave of Donald Trump and company. So I am I'm at my wits end now, as I say, we're gonna get up every morning, We're gonna pull on the gloves and we're gonna keep punching because there's no alternative,

I don't think. But you know, when we hear and you know what infuriates me, I think more than the fact that he's been destroying presidential documents all along. Amorrosa told us years ago that she walked into the Oval office, Michael Cohen was there and Donald Trump was there. That was not an aboveboard conversation going on. And when she walks in, Donald Trump pops a piece of paper in his mouth and starts chewing it up. Why to destroy

evidence of his own misconduct? Right? I don't even care so much about all of that, because that is who Donald Trump is. He's a mob bus. What I care about most, and what I'm going to probably vent about today, is that we heard reporting that the National Archives has been negotiating with Donald Trump for more than a year to do what to claw back evidence of crime that

Donald Trump was housing at Mara Lago. Danielle, If you or I had improperly removed classified material, If we had destroyed, removed, or mutilated government records or documents, those are two separate crimes I just mentioned. Let me mention a third if we had taken documents that belong to the United States and violation of the Presidential Records Act. That's three different

federal statutes he violated. If we had that stuff. Do you think the federal government would negotiate with us, you know, in hostage like fashion, for a year, or do you think one minute after they found out we had violated those laws, there would have been federal agents banging in our door, guns drawn after having obtained a search warrant and taken back the evidence of crime we were in possession of. That's the insanity of the way our federal

government has gone about dealing with Donald Trump's crimes. I just you know, here's the thing is that even as you're saying this, I'm like, didn't we just try one of the insurrectionists for removing documents from Nancy Pelosi's office, right, like it's a crime. And I'm just so tired of hearing that we are a nation of laws when we know that that's not true. We're not ana of laws.

We're a nation of laws that applies to those that are most marginalized, those that are most downtrodden, those that can't bribe their way out, lie their way out, and don't have the right complexion to get their way out. Right. And so we have a case of a woman, once again, black woman, six years in federal prison for the crime of what not knowing that she couldn't vote in the

United States. Donald Trump, up and down these United States, up and down this country has been lying cheating, stealing, using the White House as essentially a money laundering operation from diplomats and foreign entities. And we know all of this.

We know all of it. So I'm like, Glenn, you know, at this point in time, I try not to get my blood pressure up anymore because I don't think it matters, right, Like, I don't know how to continue to sustain a level of anger and outrage when I am no longer shocked by the ineptitude of this Department of Justice and this administration. So tell me how you think that we're going to see this play out other than by the headlines, because those are the only people that are doing any work.

Are the journalists that are out there right that are saying, Hey, Department of Justice, look what we've unearthed, Look what we've discovered, And then nada. I don't know how this is going to play out. You know, even though we have more revelations about more Trump crimes that have gone unaddressed, I still find it impossible to conceive of a Department of Justice that has all of this evidence of crime and just completely disregards it and lets our nation limp toward

the end of our democracy. I don't at this point, it's just faith. I don't even know if it's hope. It's certainly not a realistic expectation based on what we've

seen do. I still think that federal prosecutors are doing what federal prosecutors do, which is moved too slowly, investigate everything exhaustively and to perfection in the grand jury before they're ever willing to return indictments against anybody other than the foot soldiers who attack the Capitol on January sixth, and that they're gonna indict their way up the chain. I still believe that's going to happen. The question is will it be too late, and you know, will it

be too little? Will the House end up flipping to the Republicans, at which point the Department of Justice's work will slow from a crawl to a halt, not because DJ will make those changes itself, but because then it's

all frivolous subpoenas all the time. It's like a Benghazi investigation on steroids, where all the Republican controlled House does is carpet bomb the Department of Justice and the Executive branch more broadly with congressional subpoenas and then find reasons to say you're in non compliance, lock them up using the power of inherent contempt that the Democrats in Congress refuse to use. So you can see this gathering on

the horizon. And the only question is does the Department of Justice care enough to accelerate whatever it's doing and start indicting the insiders of the insurrection, the coup plotters, the conspirators who designed Green Bay sweeps and false electors and fraudulent legal challe lenges. I don't know. I don't know if the Department of Justice has it in them, has it in its DNA to do what's necessary to

keep our republic up and running. I don't know. You know, the RNC once again showed its hand, said the quiet part out loud. Right, we're going to censure anyone that doesn't go along with the big lie, that doesn't fall in line with the party and do what is necessary in order to advance our authoritarian ideals. Right, they are telling you that out loud. When we get power, we

have one desire. It is to discredit and dismantle the Biden administration with a series of impeachment hearings to impeach him. On what right they're going to take part this administration, they're going to take apart any small bit of investigation that has been going on. We know all of this, Glenn, the Department of Justice. I would assume that those career officials inside that have been there for decades also are

aware of the politics of our current moment. And so there's no sign of anything changing in the next seven eight nine months. And so I for me, you know, I did have faith. I had faith that by the time that we reached the year anniversary of the insurrection that those that were pulling the levers of power would be behind bars or at least awaiting trial, right, which

means that they would have been indicted. But to continue to show the American people that so long as you have enough money, right and like, you can be above the law. So, you know, I harken back to the press conference that Merritt Garland gave a couple of weeks ago, and we're all sitting there waiting for some type of announcement nothing. This administration, everybody, it seems, wants to turn

the page on the insurrection for a different reason. Republicans Mitch McConnell says to RNC chair, we need to stop talking about the insurrection because we have the House and possibly the Senate within our grasps. If we keep looking backwards, right, then we're going to remind the American people who exactly is responsible for the insurrection. Then you have a Democratic party that says, ah, we want to turn the page. We have bigger agenda items, we want to do work

for the American people. Everybody, Glenn wants to turn the page. How is it that both parties, for different reasons, want to turn the page and the rest of our stre hanging on believing that this criminal president who victimized so many, all of us, it's just going to get away scott free. Yeah, they keep turning pages. The end of the book and the end of the story is the end of our republic. So without accountability, we don't remain viable. We just don't.

And when you you know, in yesterday's video, I catalog just you know, the top ten hits of Donald Trump's crimes, starting with the campaign finance violation, conspiracy he was in with Michael Cohen on the front end to get elected unlawfully, not even talking about his encouraging Russian interference to help him win the presidency. And then you know, you tick through everything he did moving forward, you know, bribing and

extorting President Zelenski. Ten counts of felony, instruction of justice that's been investigated and is ready to be indicted. Sitting in there in volume two of the Muller Report, he made false statements to Muller in his written answers to questions. Each one is a five year federal felony. He obstructed congressional proceedings a thousand times over by telling his executive branch officials do not comply with lawfully issued congressional subpoenas.

He didn't tell them to invoke executive privilege. He just said be in contempt, and they were, and he has not been held accountable for that. He witnessed hampering of Ambassador Marie Ivanovitch avoidable COVID debts. Take it from this old homicide prosecutor. There's criminal liability for what he did to the American people by lying to us and chasing us all out into a deadly oncoming pandemic, inciting an insurrection,

conspiring to criminally overturn a president election. And now we can add multiple counts of destroying documents and mishandling classified information and all for naught. If we turn the page on that, then the next president will have no reason and no motivation to behave in a lawful manner. He or she just won't. I hope it's a she, because maybe then we've got some luck of pulling ourselves out

of this morass. But if you allow a criminal president to run rampant during the presidency and after the presidency, then it feels to me like we're done. I mean, and that's the thing is that it does. It just it feels like we're just done and we're spinning our wheels and we're trying to have to continue to have faith to believe that like justice will prevail. But you know, this isn't a movie, right and it doesn't always when

empires fall, they don't have a happy ending. And you know, I look around and I have to ask, because again, the people inside of the walls of the Department of Justice, you know, what are they thinking? What are the murmurings? Because I just I can't imagine honestly, going to work

day in and day out. You have dedicated your life to public service, I can't imagine in this moment right now, when you have the ability to shift the course of this country, to re establish rules and law and norms, and that's not happening that your moral your commitment to the job is still present. Yeah, I don't know. It's disheartening.

I think it's probably good that I'm out of government after thirty years, because if I were inside government, the first thing I would have done is I would present a case to the grand jury for any number of Donald Trump crimes, including his responsibility for avoidable COVID debts, and the leadership at the Department of Justice would either support me in that or would fire me, and I would be I would welcome either of those two outcomes, because when you see crime being committed in the harsh

light of day by high government officials, you can't not respond any more than if my next door neighbor kept breaking into my house, stealing my stuff, assaulting me and my family over and over and over again, and I reported it each time, and the evidence was there, and the law enforcement authority said, oh, well, we're not doing

anything about it. Even if their response was we're just going to keep investigating it to perfection, so in the event we have to go to trial, someday our case will be bulletproof and we can't lose, which is a fiction. There is no such thing as a bulletproof case. But that's what motivates federal prosecutors to investigate a case exhaustively in the grand jury. It's it's in part a fear of losing, a fear of embarrassment, and a fear of criticism.

But it's the same holds true if my local law enforcement officials completely refuse to remedy or address the victimization that was going on in my house to my family, even though they had enough evidence to make an arrest. What does that leave me to do, Danielle, What does that lead mean to do? The American people are victims. You know. I'm going to do a video about the Crime Victims Rights Act, which says, and I quote, the federal law is such that a victim of crime has

a right to be reasonably protected against the perpetrator. That's one of the rights and the Crime Victims Bill of Rights, the Crime Victims Rights Act. We are victims of Donald Trump and Company's crimes. We have a statutory right to be protected from the perpetrator, and the federal authorities are not doing it. So you know, we can talk about this all day long. We've identified the problem, we see the damage. We don't have a remedy. We don't have

a remedy. You know what is also laughable to me at this moment too, is the fact that how could the Department of Justice not see this as a slam dunk when you are aware of the types of attorneys that Donald Trump is surrounded himself with. They are not the best and the brightest. They were laughed out of sixty six different courtrooms, right. They have brought cases and tried to I mean, what they are good at, right is slowing down processes, That's what they're good at. But

actually coming up with a defense they have none. They have no literal leg no legal leg to stand on. So how is it that the Department of Justice, withal right, the information in their arsenal, how did they look at this and say, oh, no, we're uncertain about how this

could go. Look at who you're up against. It's like a team of muppets, and I don't want to insult muppets, right, So how do they look at these people, all of these attorneys, some of whom are being investigated or have been disbarred like Giuliani in different places and think to themselves, oh, I'm not sure if we can beat them. It really and it doesn't even matter. The poor quality of Donald Trump's attorneys and poor quality is giving them too much credit.

Their their clowns, their buffoons. Right. The evidence is so overwhelming of Donald Trump's crimes that there is no legal team, no matter how good, how accomplished, that that could win this case. I mean when I say I've taken a lot of tough cases to trial, I won some, I lost some. But when I say these are strong cases against Donald Trump for a dozen or more crimes, that is you know that that's my experience of thirty years

from being in courtrooms making that assessment. And what what's so infuriating is and I have to relate it back to my experience when I was in the grand jury investigating crime. The way I believe the Department of Justice is we know they're in the grand jury the insurrection because they're returning indictments against people, and I can guarantee they are not putting blinders on with respect to that investigation. When you know there's evidence of the organizers and the

funders and the planners and the insiders coming in. That's part of the grand jury investigation. You can't segregate that out. That doesn't mean they're any closer to indicting those people, but that's part of the grand jury investigation. When I was in the grandjury investigating cases covertly before any arrest had been made, the moment I had probable cause, I had a decision to make, together with my team of fellow prosecutors, FBI agents, law enforcement authorities, we now have

enough to indict. We now have enough to make an arrest. As we've had against Donald Trump for years. Every day we decline to make an arrest is a day we are endangering public safety. And so the calculation was always we have to indict. We have to make an arrest, because if we don't, then all the bad stuff that happens from this moment moving forward is on us. That's where we are with Donald Trump. They have more than enough to make an arrest ten times over of Donald Trump.

They had it back in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, I guess the day after Joe Biden was sworn in. They had it in the Mother Report. They had plenty of evidence to indict him for felony obstruction of justice, and they decline. They declined to for whatever reason. Every day they leave Donald Trump in the wind, in the community to do more damage. That really is on the Department of Justice because they've made a decision not to indict him, not to arrest him, even though they have

enough evidence too. And that is the Department of just falling down on the job. I mean, you know, Glenn, you couldn't have put a better exclamation point. It is it is. It is the Department of Justice. And I will add the entirety of this administration falling down on the job because you know, a year plus later, I have no idea what I voted for in twenty twenty.

I really don't. And for folks that want to tell me, well, things could be much worse than they are now, I want to ask you how exactly, because it's not great, it doesn't feel great, it doesn't look great. And for an administration that came in and said that they were about the rule of law, following science, re reigniting people's faith in our institutions that have held steady for over two hundred years, I don't see it and I don't

believe it. And if that is me, I can only imagine what people who have only been partially engaged how they feel now. Glenn, tell folks when where they can always watch your videos, because I'm certain that people want to see you go in on the myriad at the litany of crimes that Donald Trump has committed, Donald Trump in company. Yeah, you can go on YouTube. Just plug my name in Glenn Kershner I think it's actually Glenn Kershner two. Or just type Injustice Matters and you'll find

my YouTube channel. I post a video every single day, seven days a week, taking on the Trump crime du jour. And then you can also find me all day and night on Twitter. If you want to more formally support what we do at Team Justice, we are an all

volunteer operation. Here, you can go over to patreon dot com sign up to become a patron and you'll get you know, all sorts of Team Justice and Justice Matters stickers and a handwritten note, and you'll get an invitation to our annual Team Justice gathering, which is an event I put on. It's all on me, dinner, cocktails, the whole, the whole thing. That's my way of saying thank you to the people who support me on Patreon, so Patreon, YouTube, Twitter,

those are some of the places that folks can find us. Oh, Glenn, you know, as I end today with you, I just wonder, you know, can the American people just bring a case against Donald Trump? I mean, you've done all the research. There are so many smart attorneys that we all know and see every day. I'm just if I can't rely on the Department of Justice is our last hail Mary potentially just you know, Kirshner and company justice matters versus Donald Trump. You know I would support that. I support

just about anything. It's and there are a number of lawsuits that have been brought, including by members of Congress and Capitol police officers against Donald Trump. In those civil

suits take forever to work their way through the system. Unfortunately, I would like an answer from the Department of Justice that if crimes have been committed and there's more than enough evidence to prove it, but DJ refuses to pursue those crimes, can you please explain to us, the American people, what our remedies are, What can we do to protect ourselves, to protect our nation. If you are unwilling to do it. I would love for them to answer that question, because

I don't have a good answer to it. Well, We'll continue to follow you and continue to keep faith the little bit that we have because that's all we can do, and that's literally all we have. But Glenn, I can't thank you enough for spending time with us each and every week to walk us through this legal, eaesy web of lies and hopefully to be able to celebrate something on the other side at some point. We appreciate you now my pleasure, Daniel, and now folks for your woke

moment of wellness. You know, over the past couple of days, I've been in conversations with just a bunch of different people and one of the refrains that keep coming up is finding your moments of joy and really really connecting to the outdoors, even if where you are is cold. And I've had this conversation and I brought up the fact that my sister said that there is no bad weather, there is only bad clothing. But I want to talk about the power of walking and walking meditation. For me.

When I go walking, I put on my music, I zone out, or sometimes I will put on like a long kind of ted talk type of meditation where I'm able to just take in the beauty of what's around me. There was something about just going on a walk for a walk's sake, not to get to a destination, but just to experience your body moving and the environment around you.

To see how the sun hits, you know, the ground, To see families walking and playing and engaging with one another, to see cute little dogs, or people like in New York with their cats and backpacks and out on walks. To just experience the fact that regardless of all that we know to be bad right when we are glued to our screens and our computers and our TVs and all of these things, that when we actually decide to put ourselves in in our environment, we can see these

little moments, these sprinklings of joy. And so if you feel overwhelmed, I encourage you. If you have a park because you don't have sidewalks in your neighborhood, or you have a place that you can actually drive through just to kind of sit or just walk around just a little bit, you know, count the beautiful things that you

come across. Count you know, the moments that smiles just curl up on your mouth, because I will tell you that, you know, I am constantly reminded that there is still beauty in the world when I choose to go out in search of it. So I encourage all of you, you know, in this new week to really take in those moments, make the time intentional to look for the joy that, friends, is your woke moment of wellness. That is it for me today, friends, So as always, power

to the people and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.