Critical Mass

And today I will get into, you know, a longer in depth conversation with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel to talk about what is at stake in an upcoming Supreme Court UH case that is going to be ruling UH in New York about whether or not local governance over gun regulation impedes upon the Second Amendment, and if, like the First Amendment, there is no nuance, right. I mean, with the First Amendment, we have nuance as it pertains to acts of violence, as it pertains to hate speech. Right.

But what proponents right, supporters of the Second Amendment believe that there should be no infringement whatsoever right their rights, their liberty. And after yet another mass shooting that for me just felt way too close to home in the borough that I live in, I can't imagine this city that is populated with eight million plus people to have every one be able to have a gun and concealed at that. I take the subway right, as most fucking

New Yorkers do on a regular basis. And yeah, we're all used to seeing a lot of shit on subways, not the terror that people witnessed today, Not the terror of you know, a high time of commute and traffic when children are on the subway, right, Like, for people who don't live in cities, you have to understand that, like, you know, rush hour traffic isn't just about people trying to get adults going back and forth to work in cities, right, it is about also the subways being filled with kids

that are taking the train to school. And you know, I'll tell you that on a personal note. You know, I knew somebody whose young son was on the train, right and who it was shaken and terrified and thank god. Okay, but like, are we supposed to just allow this kind

of terror to be normal? Like have we gotten to a place where just you know, we're all just living in this perpetual state of dread and panic and anxiety, and that the only way to assuage that is to allow everyone to be able to just walk around locked and loaded. Like, I again, how the fuck does that make sense? It really doesn't. And so I sit here today, you know, reeling, reeling from just my emotional state of being that there is no place to be safe in

this country. You know, let alone, Let me not, you know, let alone adding in race and orientation and gender identity and class and all of these things like let alone adding in all of those other layers that make American society in general unsafe, right for black people, people of color, right for black trans women, for you know, queer people, right, like for immigrants and folks that are undocumented. Like you know, my mother, my sister right now is traveling. She's on holiday.

And you know, my mother is always like, you know, very nervous when my sister and I are traveling, even though my sister lives abroad, but whenever we're like traveling more and moving outside of our space, she gets really nervous. And I said to my mother, I was just like, where do you think is more are unsafe than the United States? Like, let's just be really honest. We're the

only you know, industrialized fucking nation that has regular mass shootings. Right, We're the only place where it is common, right for there to be a shooting in a grocery store, a movie theater, a synagogue, a mosque, a church. Right. We're the only country that it is normal for your kids to learn fire drills, but more importantly, active shooter drills. Right,

We're the only country that is like this. So when you take those things into account, and all of the ways in which these people who are proponents of the Second Amendment have have had their their own righteousness, their liberty infringe on everyone else's safety, and just like we've

had to contort and just deal with that. But in a city of eight million people, when you're talking about lifting a weapons ban that is in place because of just how densely populated we are, you're not only posing a threat to you know, mind and spirit and all

of these things. You're posting an economic threat, which I will get into in my conversation with Jonathan, because for those callous people that care about nothing more than money, what happens when people no longer feel safe to take the subway to go to work, and to send their kids to school, and to go shopping and all of those things guess what that we saw it with COVID.

They pack up their ship and those that have the means and the privilege of mobility do so right, which leaves a city filled with what exactly you know, not the tax base that has people give a fuck? I you know, it's it's the it's the regression and the devolving that is become our norm that to me is scaring the shit out of me on a regular basis. Today, Friends, I am absolutely shook, and I am shook in a way that I, you know, realize. The only time that

we didn't have mass shooting since Columbine was quarantine. So we didn't remove guns because they oversold right alongside toilet paper and hand sanitizer in twenty twenty, but we removed the masses. So if there are no masses, you can't have a mass shooting. People were indoors. What does that fucking tell you about our society and how absolutely insane that is. I don't know about you, but, like I, freedom to me doesn't look like living a life filled

with fear, dread, and terror. That's not what freedom looks like to me. And so how do we figure out in this heightened state of just God Jesus, everything being bad. How do we find our way out? How do we find like, what does the other side of this even look like? Because these days, I'm starting to find myself at a loss for words, which is terrible because my job is words. But I'm running out of how to make sense out of absolute fucking nonsense, because where we

are right now in America is nonsensical. I you know, I see this shooting. We had a shooting in Sacramento, we had a shooting in New York, with a shooting in Chicago, Like it's just, you know, the one thing that came back once everything opened up, Ware's shootings. I don't know where we go from here, but I know that we have to go someplace. We have to do

something right. And with the Supreme Court decision coming down in just the handful of weeks, yeah, I'm going to be inside this bunker longer than I had anticipated or wanted. Coming up next, friends, my conversation with our in house doctor,

doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks. As always, I am always excited to have our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel join us on wikaf to talk about a myriad of things, and you know, sometimes, Jonathan, I think that we're going to get on here and have like a conversation that's good, that we're going to talk about, Oh, I don't know, things that don't feel so dire and don't feel like our entire lives depend on it. But today is not

that day. Yesterday, in New York, as many people know, there was a mass shooting on a subway in Brooklyn, New York, and it was a little too close to home. Not in an area that I live in, but in the borough that I live in, and it's a little too close to home, given as how I just started going back on the subway following you know, the omicron spike. Jonathan, Like, I know that right now you're at Vanderbilt and so you're not in New York. But when news broke, you know, what,

how are you feeling? What was going through you know, your mind? I think a couple of things. At first, we're having this conversation before all the details are out, and so I would say that, of course, this is horrific. This is the kind of thing I study. I've seen it up close many times. I don't know what the details are going to be because as we record this conversation, they're just are there just are some really weird, you

know parts of this. You know, this guy had a bag of smoke bombs and firecrackers, he put on a mask. You know, it's hard to know what category at this moment of this conversation to put this in. Is it a mass shooting, is it an act of terrorism? Is it some other kind of dispute? And I don't know. It's like usually with a mass shooting, it's like a white guy with an a R fifteen or something like that,

and that doesn't seem to be the case here. Again, we were We're in a vacuum, and so I guess the first point to kind of make is that we don't know what category this is. I still don't know. Everybody's kind of using it as a warshock test, all

the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the world. They're talking about how this would never have happened if every single person had a gun in their underpants and stuff like that, and everybody on the subway had a gun, and so the gun crowd is making this a pro gun thing. Other people, I guess like me, are saying this is actually why you need fewer guns and search your gun laws. Because as horrible as this is, it happened. The part of what it is, it's rare, right, It happens a

lot more frequently in another places. And so I just I think that the question of what this is is still TBD. And and I say that with a word of caution, because again, when something like this happens, we put it into these categories. But until we know a little bit more about the case and catch the guy, I'm not quite sure, to be honest, how to how

to think about this one? There's something cleared. Let me let me ask you this because I, you know I and I want to appreciate you for kind of you know, pulling us back from making any snap you know, decisions or commentary as this is unfolding. But you know, as you're working through the list of and and as as the governor and you know, the country is working through you know what was this? Um? Was it terrorism? Was it a mass shooting? Was it you know, was it premeditated?

Where you know what all of these pieces were. I guess, like where I find myself right now is does it fucking matter? Like does it like in all like in all honesty like doesn't matter. I think that the fact that things like this can happen and it is the norm for it to happen in the United States, not the norm for it to happen frankly in New York

City to your point, because of the regulations that we have. Yes, people get shot in New York all the time, but I'm going to be honest with you, it is usually targeted. It's usually like gang related. It isn't, you know, just a you know, mass situation. And so I wonder does categorizing it matter, Like is it is it just a way for us as humans to put something in a box so that we can better understand and deal with it.

But I'm finding that the way that we continue to process what has become the norm in America is part of the fucking problem. Well, I think there are there are three parts to that answer, I guess, and they're all probably not complimentary. I mean number one is again like this guy had a gas mask and apparently a favorite MPTA vest. Like there's something about this that just

seems I mean, it's it's almost beyond premeditated. There's something there's something that just doesn't for me quite add up about this story and then you know, the the there's something, there's going to be some weird twist to this. I have no knowledge at all. I'm I'm I'll be back in Brooklyn tomorrow, but I don't know. But I'm just saying that some part of this, I mean, it's it's it's almost beyond premeditated. It's like planned in a in a in a kind of mass murdery or terrorismy kind

of way. And so I have no idea. I mean, it's it's, it's it's. I think that the word that keeps coming up in my mind a sinister. Right there is something that is very sinister about the witness accounts that are coming out that seems so deliberate, right. Um. And you know, one of the other things that we heard is because the gas masks part, to me was

probably the most like shocking. Um is the fact that this is again, folks, just according to the New York Times, and we are discussing this, um, just hours after this

has happened. Um, So what according to the New York Times, they're saying that they're, you know, this person arrived to the city via like a U haul or something like that like that so again it's it's like, who is this person that that as of as of this conversation, there's still a hunt underway, um, but that there is something sinister, go ahead, Yeah, I mean, so that's number one is like just the pattern of the pattern of

this kind of thing, um. And that's why I think it's important just to think about the category and not that not. I mean, we certainly live with a lot of trauma right now, and this is a moment where like life expectancy is falling in our country and around the world. We've got a crazy motherfucker the other side of the world using chemical weapons on people. We've got

a pandemic coming back. So it's kind of an urgent moment to you know, think about just the value of life right now, and and and but but I do think that again, I just I just want to so that that point number one is just there are aspects of this that I think make it seem like it could fit in anywhere. That's that's just that's just number one. Number two. Number two is, of course, we are seeing dramatic rise in gun violence right now, like it's out

of control. Um. And so this comes on the heels of you know, a mass shooting in Sacramento, and a horribly bloody weekend across the country, including here in Tennessee. And so just the out of controlness of gun violence right now feels like it just feels unstoppable in a way. And so all these idiots who are like everybody just needs a gun, like, I just don't think that that's

going to help. But there's no there's no answer right now because more background checks aren't going to help either, And so it just feels like this is in a way the kind of I guess thought. Number two for me is this is a kind of coming home to roost of our pandemic response in a way where we had, um, you know, millions upon millions upon millions of guns sold, right and so the more guns there are, the more

shootings they are going to be. It's pretty linear. And so number two is just this is the reckoning that we've seen even in twenty twenty one by data and CDC data, there's just a lot more gun violence in our country right now, and there are a lot more guns in our country in our country, So I think number two is just the almost contagious nature of gun violence right now is really is really scary no matter what this turned out to, because that's number two and

then number three, as you were talking about before, as I've been doing a lot of research on this case that's coming up in the Supreme Court that is going to basically be the fantasy of Marjorie Taylor Green, which is that we open up New York to anybody who wants to carry a gun. Do it, we can do it.

I think it's important to note that gun crime in New York, even with all these headlines, is considerably lower than it is in just about any other dense urban area across this country because of the effectiveness of New York gun laws. But part of the reason I think we're seeing all these New York Post kind of headlines about you know, crime out of control and all that

kind of stuff. I mean, the crime is bad now, but it's also studying the state for the argument that the Supreme Court is going to make, which is that, Okay, everybody in New York needs a gun because crimes so out of control. It's setting the stage for the gun market that I think they think is going to boom, and so something like this kind of fits right into it.

And so I just think it's hard to see this story outside the context of the case that's coming down the pike with the Supreme Court, where they're basically just going to be saying if everybody in you know, they're going to overturn New York's every they're going to overturn New York's centuries old gun laws. And so I just think that's that's an important part of this. Also. I guess I'm just trying to figure out in my head right now, like how we got here? Do you know

what I'm saying that. I just it's like I'm I feel myself more and more having these momentary out of body experiences that you see like in a sitcom or a drama where they're just like freeze frame, how did we get here? And that's the moment I'm having. You know, I remember us speaking Jonathan in twenty twenty. You know,

we've been doing kids now a long time. Yeah, right, I remember as having this conversation in twenty twenty and you saying, you know guns, and you said it in your Boston Review article, guns are flying off the shelf alongside hand sanitizer and toilet paper, Like I don't understand, like it's a pandemic, it's a virus, Like are you going to shoot it? Like? I you know, what the

hell is happening? And so, you know, I just want you to remind us of what in all the conversations that you've been having as you write your next book, what was the rationale that people had around we have a global health pandemic. I don't have hand sanitizer, We're being told not to touch shit. I'm washing my cereal boxes, don't have toilet paper. But I need a gun? What was like? I think that for me as a non gun owner, but somebody who has begun actually because of

the craziness that we've been living in. What you gonna say, You're gonna get a gun? No? No, I'm not going to get a gun? Are you insane? No? But I understand. I begin I have begun to understand people who never wanted a gun, but then like, are now thinking about it? And so what was the rationale that people have given or are giving to you if they're not these readily? You know, I've I've been building an artillery in my backyard. Like what are they saying? Well, initially, when I when

I was interviewing people in twenty twenty about this. The gun owning crowd was all saying, Um, anarchy is coming and I'm gonna have to fight my neighbor for toilet paper like that was their first thing was like it wasn't shoot the virus. It was there's going to be chaos and I need to defend my stuff. Um. That

was certainly the first round of it. Then it was the government is locking us down and government tyranny, and so there were all those you know, just to use a medical word, there were all those honkeys who stormed the capital m in the in states across the country. Um, and so uh, we have rail totally. I mean, come on, if we're going down, I'm going down with Okay, yay. Um. So then there then there was the I need my R fifteen to go protest, get Gretchen Whitmire and you know,

or Wisconsin or whatever. So there was the whole performance of that. Then the NRA started marketing guns to black Americans, saying the police aren't going to protect you, you need to get a gun. So that was a massive boom was black gunners, um who because they basically said you might have to fight back. Against the cops, and the cops won't mess with you view of a gun. So

we've just gone through different phases. I guarantee you that's what's coming next is massive marketing to people in New York saying somebody could kill you on the subway, go buy a gun. So everything turns to these gun markets and it's so predictable, but it's also effective because of what they do is they just scare the shit out

of people against each other. But ultimately, what you're doing when you arm society and scare the crap out of people against each other as you're sowing the seeds for some pretty bad shit, right, some pretty bad fratricytal shit. And so so it's a tribal moment. It's a moment of mistrust and guns guns fit right into that. It's weird because like the minute the pandemic hit my I mean I never I suck at this stuff, but one of my finance people called and said, you got to

buy gunstocks. That's going to be the hottest stock and the pandemic. Oh wow, And I'm like, yeah, I said, do not tell me that, and do not tell anybody you told me that. And we never had this conversation, but it turned out gunstocks went up nine thousand percent or something like that, and so um, you know, it's just it's a moment where there's a kind of a breakdown of order and there's no answer. I mean, the people I was interviewing the minute Ukraine happened, everybody's like,

this is what happens, We need to get guns. And it's true, if you're in Ukraine you probably want a gun, Like there are examples where people meet guns. But it's just the logic goes much more toward a militarized arsenals level of society. And so I just I guess you

can see. Is that the goal though, Jonathan, you think it is the goal of the ground and I know because you've talked about this before that the goal of the NRA and gun rights you know, groups like them is to make money, right, Like they're trying to bolster their membership and sell as many guns and sell as many bullets and all of the accoutrements thereof that go along with this lifestyle, right, But is it is it also outside of capitalism, which I know is difficult for

us to move outside of because it is literally everywhere. Is it the goal to have a militarized state? Is it the goal to turn neighbor against neighbor and for us all to just live in perpetual fear? You know, it's funny like the way that the way that guns are marketed. Sometimes it's like it's the great equalizer, you know, like nobody's going to mess with the over gun. The police won't mess with the ever a gun. It will level out the playing field. But you know, the government

blah blah blah. But it turns out the same inequities that we have are actually exacerbated when there are a lot of guns around. So actually more black people get shot by police, and more white people commit guns suicide. It's not like it it's not equalizing anything except for it's just it's a kind of mistrust enhancer. So you can hear my voice. The reason I'm being measured today is because I'm scared for New York. Yeah, because people are really nervous right now, and I think it's a

dangerous moment. Because it's just a dangerous moment for New York because people are afraid there's this Supreme Court case coming that's going to open gun markets in New York. And yet New York's a city that depends on population density and people getting along with each other and even I'll give you a small example, not to call out anybody, but I'm on a softball team that plays all over the city and for the first time in ten years,

my team did not. They canceled the game tonight because no one wanted to take the subway to the game we play in. I think it's like Jamaica or something like that. And like it's never been a problem ever, It's never been a big deal. But all of a sudden, so the minute this kind of fear takes hold, it creates this kind of tribalization, white flight, anxiety, and plusit bias. All those things go together and then you throw guns

in and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle. And so I'm afraid because like New York actually is a place that works, because people kind of I mean, because we I mean, I mean, let's just be clear, Like you know, it's funny because I have always heard, and we've all always heard like New York is like by people who don't live here, right, that New York is unsafe. New York City people they're mean and it's a dangerous place. And I while yes, again there are there is absolute violence.

There's violence everywhere, but for the amount of people that live in such a small piece of land like there isn't that kind that level of consistent chaos. It isn't the wild wild West here. And what happens, you know, again, if you just want to make the economic argument right for the city, what happens if you so, if your team right is actually like a microcosm to how people

are thinking. If I want to if I need to take the subway to school, or I've been sending my kids to take it, because there were many kids that were on that were on that train in Brooklyn because it was high rush hour, and rush hour isn't just adults going to work. It is children going to school. That is how they get to school in New York City.

And so if you start to become fearful of any of that kind of movement right there, the freedom of movement, because you're expecting another horrific incident like this, then you're going to flee. And it isn't just like it isn't just white flight. It's people deciding that like I'm literally daying in my three block radius right where I have all the things that I need. I already work from home, and so by virtue of that, you have an economy that starts to shrink. So isn't there also like an

economic argument to make here? No, that's kind of the idea, right, I mean, the minute businesses start leaving and tax base starts leaving, and you know, Wall Street becomes Miami Crypto Capitol and stuff like that. And I mean, you know, part of the argument of dying of whiteness is like red states are already fucked because they have these terrible policies. So terrible policies aren't going to influence them very much, but it would be horrible for a place like New York.

So I mean, I I just think that New York really needs to unify against this right now. I think it's a really important time for New York to come together and to and to really think about what makes

New York great and what makes New York strong. It is people who might not agree about many things even but but New York works because of the kind of layers of New York people inhabiting the same space of a you know, shocklingly low level of crime compared to other places of very diverse spaces across much of the city.

And so I would just say that, really, this is a moment for New York to come together, and I hope, I hope we have leadership to do it, because otherwise there's some pretty there's some pretty dark clouds on the horizon that I think are going to really be challenging. Well, let's talk about that for a second, right, because the Governor Huckel, right, came out and literally was in the streets, came out, you know, another strongly worded statement. This ends, now,

this stops. Now, this isn't who New York is. Blah blah blah. You have Mayor Eric Adams, who is in the virtual space because he has contracted COVID and so is not like out in the streets today. But he is a proponent of we need more cops. As a former cop, he is the one that is saying, well, you know, we need to put more cops on the

subway platforms. And those who remember New York in the days of stop and frisk and consistent harassment of black and brown men in particular, are saying, what are you talking about you need more cops and you need more money. You have one of the largest police budgets in the country, So like, what, what do you think that the pushback should be to those that are going to use this moment of fear and rightful fear to say we need more police, and we need and we need and they

need more money. I'm going to say something very unpopular now, God, I think we need to come together and figure out a common narrative for public safety. I think there needs to be a model of what good and respectful policing is right now. I don't think that the question of I mean, because the thing is if there, if they're the crime narrative serves a purpose which is an ant it's a it's a racist purpose, and it's an anti

New York purpose. Right the crime narrative is, therefore everybody needs a gun, and therefore all you corporations move down to Miami and let just let those guys have their own crazy crime infested area. Like nobody nobody is served by by having shooting or death or harassment or anything like that. So I think there needs to be a kind of unity moment right now where where we kind of talk really honestly about what public safety means. Um, I think that the question of more or less police,

this is just me saying this is it. It's almost in this context. I understand what you're saying about there, believe me. But I think in this context it's a hard it's a dangerous conversation to be having about more or less police because less police is going to fit into the more guns narrative. That's going to be almost a given. I can tell you that's what happened in every place I've studied. Kansas City used to be a

very divers city. The minute they happened, it was immediately white flight, lower tax base, more guns, wall off certain areas. Like I just don't think anybody wins in that narrative. And so I think it's a time to get together and say what is public safety and how can we join across divides to try to do it in a way that is different in a way, And so I think, you know, I just I think that I think again, I just I'm wary of the more or less police

argument right now. Not to say there's not history right now, but I just think that if we're having that debate, it just creates that, it creates the opening for I mean, there's just there're about to be a lot more guns in New York. And and and so I think without communities working together across divides, I think New York is really

going to be in for a lot of trouble. And so I think, I mean, I like and here's the thing is that, no, I get it right, um And and I'm always on the fence of when is the right time to have conversations that make people uncomfortable and when is the right time for us to you know, say, like, for instance, there's a manhunt right now, Why why is why is there? What are one of the reasons for

the manhunt? And again we're we're recording this, you know, just hours after the shooting has taken place in Brooklyn, and so the shooter has not been apprehended at this time. But the cameras were not working or broken in the subway. Right. That goes back to infrastructure. Right, that goes back to how like that isn't That doesn't have anything to do with how many officers shod should not be on a

platform or in a train car. That has everything to do with the basic functioning of a system if somebody was robbed or raped or beaten or what have you, like, there's no there is no surveillance that is happening, like do you know what I'm saying? Like? And the question really it's so hard to There's two things I'm gonna I'm gonna go super meta on you about that point, right, because on one hand, it do you is the you beyond this case? Do you want more surveillance? That's question

number one, which is a complicated question. And then question number two is why why is infrastructure failing? And so I'm just going to go super meta. What pays for infrastructure? Right? Infrastructure is paid by tax income? And why is New York struggling with tax income? Well, there are a lot of reasons, but one is because the twenty seventeen GOP

tax bill made it impossible. It made it really costly for businesses to do I mean, the corporations and wealthy people suck in many ways, but they also pay for a lot of the tax foundation of New York. And the twenty seventeen tax bill, for example, made it really costly for businesses to stay and do business in New York.

And so all of a sudden they all started going to Florida and Dallas and all these other kind of places, and so part of the infrastructure issue, of course, it's structural racism, one hundred percent, But it's also that just New York has a huge financial deficit based on decisions that have been made that have nothing to do with this situation. I don't know if that impacted the camera and the subway car, but I would say that if you're going to invest in infrastructure, you need more tax

income in a way. And so it's it's hard, right, it's it's a hard time to be thinking. But I do I do think that we're seeing the downstream implications of some I mean, again, there's always been you know, we had the seventies and Guardian Angels and Son of Sam. Like I feel like we're in New York. We've been there before. But I would say that New York that the infrastructure question is an important part of this. I

totally agree. But but you have to think, like why why isn't there money for infrastructure, And certainly it's that it goes to certain parts of the city not others, and all these kind of things. But I also think that New York. I mean independent of that subway car. The Quney system is in huge financial problem right now. Education systems, higher education systems that serve minoritized communities and let them get degrees that then let them make money

and become taxpayers themselves, and things like that. Like all these things are happening, and so the city, the financial model of the city is it's just a it's a hard moment, and it's a hard moment for a lot of reasons. But one is that there were a lot of upstream decisions that really impacted the tax base of New York and just made it a lot cheaper for the high tax paying entities to leave the state to

go to Dallas, US or Nashville. I mean, Nashville is a is a is a massive you know, there's our whole skyline is you know, cranes of businesses moving from New York and stuff like that. And so I think, you know, New York, New York. We need a new unity moment in New York that encompasses this stuff. We need to kind of redefine New York. And it's got to be playing on the strength of New York and the strength of New York is diversity and a lot

of people working towards the same. Yeah, Jonathan, you know, I want to say that when we began our regular conversations back in twenty twenty, I thought that the worst of it was going to be how do we preserve our mental and emotional wherewithal to be able to power through COVID, a global health pandemic that just felt like

it hit out of nowhere. And now here we are two years later, and I feel more I don't even know how it's possible to feel more more unsafe and more uneasy than I did in April twenty twenty that I'm feeling in April twenty twenty two, And that to me again is just absolutely wild. I think absolutely wild, enjoy I mean, like April twenty twenty, we didn't know how good we had it. We had the alpha variant, you know that, we didn't have chemical warfare in Russia

or Ukraine. Um So, anyway, the thing is we're Humanity is cyclical, um so um no again, I again, I just go back to what I said before, which is I think there's an urgent need for New York to have a unity moment right now and hopefully this will be that'll be the result of this, because there really is a need to bond together because right now, collaboration and cooperation is what makes strength and without that year privy to all these all these forces, you know, otherwise

you need like Batman or something like. It's like just a savior. And so right now unity is is really our our best, our best resource. Jonathan, thank you so much, as always one for your work that you continue to do and the messages that you continue to spread, the classes that you're teaching, the work um you know that you're producing because it's it's so greatly needed, and just you know, always thankful for the time that you have

been making over the last two years too. I mean, we're making sense of a really hard moment and so I hopefully you and I and the listeners to this show, you know, we're all kind of going through this together. This is very much a real time kind of deal, and so you know we'll get through. But it's just the problems. I mean, I guess we're recognizing the problems are much more complicated than we than we expected. So yeah, it's true. Thank you, all right, take everybody? That is

it for me? Today here on Woke a f as always Power to the people and to all the people. Power, Get woke and stay woke as fuck.