Black, Queer, Creative: Justin Simien on Making It in Hollywood

PM mood. Justin Generally, when I run into you and get to see you, whether it's on a panel, like we got to hang out a little bit in Sundance, which is my first time going to Sundance, So being able to see you and chat with you there was like cherry on top of the Sunday. But now we're

living in the midst of a global pandemic. All my conversations start differently, how are you doing and where are you I'm doing fine, I'm in la in my house sort of yep, you know, and during the lockdown, and I'm an introvert, so I have very complicated feelings about it. One way, it's like kind of fantastic and it's all the pressure is off on the other side, like, you know the world is really crazy and terrifying, and you know,

all you can really do is watch from inside. On a couple of different occasions, when I was at Serious, we had a conversation about black mental health, in particular in Sundance. We talked a bit about it. On the Telling Black Stories Being Black and Out in Hollywood panel discussion, we talked about it. Are you having more conversations with friends, with family, with folks about their mental health and mental health now? Because crisis hotlines hauls are on the rise? Sadly,

domestic violence is twenty percent, which is a height. How are you like having those conversations and also managing your own mental health during this time? Yeah, it is sort of how someone is doing in the pandemic mentally. It really is the thing that you know, I find myself talking about more often than not. You know, it's interesting because I was already especially coming out of Sundance and sort of at the start of this year, I was

already in therapy. I already you know, was talking to a psychiatrist all those kinds of things, And really, I mean that's just continuing now that we're in now we're in lockdown. I do my therapy on zoom. But yeah, I think it's a I think one where so everyone is sort of being forced to be with themselves intimately because we're all stuck inside. And I think it probably is exacerbating all kinds of issues that were already there. But there's a lot less distraction, and there's also a

lot of bad, genuinely bad news, you know. I mean, this is a real situation. People are really getting sick and dying, and you know, I think, I'm sure I'm not breaking news by saying that the current administration is handling it in a very terrifying manner that does not make me feel safe for taking care of my government. And so yeah, it's definitely top of mind, and I think that, you know, for me, whatever, however somebody needs to cope with it, I think they should be doing that.

And for some people that is, you know, being out there, sort of connecting with people online, more giving structure to the days, being more productive. For some of us that may mean like I want to give myself a whole day to stay in bed, and I think, however it works for you, I think that's what you should do. I don't think it should being a shame over what someone's doing to cope, because this is just really a

unique thing. I mean, we're living through one of those big times and humanity where everything's different and no one's encountered this before. This is you know, our World War two in a lot of ways, you know, for a lot of folks, there is if you're a content creator, right if you're a creative like you know you are, there seems to be a lot of memes floating around that are saying you don't need to be your most productive self right now. You don't need to write the

New York Times bestselling novel. You don't need to put out your Oscar Worthy, you know, film and create right now. Do you feel the pressure to be doing the most? Or have you taken yourself out of that and you're just like, you know what I'm gonna do, Like you just said, I'm going to deal with this how I need to deal with this. So if that means I'm going to be in bed all day, then I'm going to be in bed and I'm not judging myself. Or do you still feel like the constant churn of like

that doing the most culture? It's like, how you know, I keep seeing how are you going to come out of this pandemic? You're gonna come out snatched? Are you gonna come out? Yeah? And I'm like, what is happening? I know, I do feel the pressure. I mean it's everywhere you know where It's an extroverted industry that I live in, I work in and live in. So you know, people are launching businesses and business models right now out of the new American normal. And I mean, for me,

I definitely feel the pressure. But I just I can't. I can't keep up with all that. I will tell you right now, I will not come out of this pandemic snatched. Okay. I will come out a little bier, a little woolier, probably been arrested than I've been in years.

But you know, I think the one thing that kind of helps is that we are you know, we've still been writing Season four, Dear White People, even though I think production is sort of across the board, you know, down right now, we're at least still able to keep a writer's room, you know, virtually and keep the scripts going, which has been helpful to just sort of get structure

to the day. But also, you know, they have an outlet of some kind, to have a deadline, to have something that sort of you know, gives the days in the week some structure. But when we're done with that, you know, I planned to I plan to stay in bed. I don't know. I don't know. I can't quite. This feels like the worst time for me to like pull it together, I know, but it's like, it's just it's crazy the amount of pressure that I feel, like to

pull my shit together every day. It's so bizarre because I really just do want to be in bed, and it's like that everybody around me is just like, we'll launch another podcast and do another thing, and I'm like, what the fuck. I just want, you know, I want to get high and like relax, but through my trauma. I think that is an appropriate response to a global pandemic,

I really do. I think people underestimate just how traumatic this experience isn't all of us, you know, there's something happening in the world that you either have absolutely no connection to because you or nobody you know is sick in this particular way, or you have a devastating connection to because you know, God forbid of somebody that you know, or you are sick with this thing or have any

other kind of serious medical issue. Your life is very very very very impacted by this crisis right now, and it's just very I think most of us are in this weird limbo of like, you know, we turn on the TV or we scroll through the news and we are inundated with horror, but you know, the actual day to day moments of our lives are actually become very mundane and you know, flat, and it's like, what, psychologically,

what do you do with that? And I think, you know, for some people, being extremely productive might help them work through that trauma. But I don't know if that's the key for everybody, And I don't think anyone should feel like that's what you have to do. I think we all have to recognize that this is traumatic in ways that you know, we could never have anticipated because we've never lived through something before. Yeah, it's been a hundred

years since the last I was going to say. Even even the things that we may have read about fifteen twenty years ago, whether we're in school, there was no one around to really give a firsthand account of what it felt like to live through the fucking Spanish flu or what it felt like to live through the Black Plate. There's nobody being like, you know what, I remember like we couldn't go to the horse store like there was nothing nothing, there was nothing to say and be like

the horse store, I couldn't get my bonnet done. You know, I would think I learned how to sew during the Spanish Flu, Like, no, we don't. We have no sense memory of the Spanish Flu, of the Great Depression, of any of that. And we also have a very you know, I think in times like this, you really do, whether or not you like the president, you do look to

leadership for some sign of what's going to happen. And I don't know about you, but whenever I've looked to the leadership or like dared to watch one of these press conferences, it's really it's scary. It is scary to see the level of incompetence on display and to know that all of our lives and our income and you know, the future of our species sort of rests on this group of people to do the right thing, and it doesn't really feel like they even know what they're talking

about Trump in particular. It's terrifying, and there's no way that doesn't get in and doesn't have an impact on one's mental health or outlook community. Yes, which is why I think that. You know, what I do remember through reading about some of the most traumatic and tragic times of the evolution of society is escapist, right, is what

people use to escape. And you know, in many ways the birth of Hollywood and movies and film came from that, right, people wanting to move outside of the traumas of what was happening in World War Two and be able to escape. Right, This was a genre of film. Now people are telling us well, Quarantine and Chill. Right, so we've moved from Netflix and Chill to Quarantine and Chill. Your series Dear White People is sadly they're graduating. It's coming to a close,

which means that I have to graduate with them. I don't want to. I want to be held back. But people are digging into Netflix now more than ever. So tell me about what folks can look to look towards for the left. For the final installment, I should say I'm distilling of Dear White People because it's been a journey.

Yes it has, and it's very difficult to end it, you know, and I can't say too too much, but you know, I think that one we are we have the hard task of landing the plane and figure out what relationships to wrap up and how to wrap them up. And I think it's interesting because the themes that we're dealing with this season, I think are very much on the minds of a lot of people during the pandemic. But like you said, we don't want to sort of make a pandemic season because we need to mentally escape

the pandemic. But this idea that we are, you know, our human lives really come down to how productive we are is sort of a symptom of capitalism, and particularly for black folks or any kind of marginalized community, that is such a double edged sword because we're sort of taught to be productive and taught to sort of have a market value that will sustain us, but we are in other ways denied, you know, human dignities, and that I think is I think that we can address that

in the season, as these kids are about to sort of launch into the real world and you know, trade their passions for careers and for specific ways to make money and to have market value once they graduate. I think that that theme is something that will really resonate with where people are at an experiencing right now, because you know, the show has always been about identity versus self.

It's always been about like, their true humanity versus the demands of you know, the culture and the society on them, and the tension between those things. I think part of what is so dramatic about the pandemic is that everyone is feeling that. It's like, if I'm stuck at home and I'm not being productive and I'm not earning money, what am i? And who am I? Who am I? Exactly? And that's exactly what you'd feel that senior year of college.

It's that post adolescent growing into oneself, right, Like the world is supposedly your oyster and yet right now it's actually fucking closed. And so how do you imagine who you're going to be and what you're aspiring to do with such uncertainty? Right? I think the beautiful thing about Dear White People is that for those of us who are very far gone from college, like, it allows you

to relive a lot of moments. And the moment that allows you to relive is just like the birthing of yourself, right and in all the ways that we evolve throughout the different major moments of our life, and like kind of college is one of those major capstones more so than high school graduation in terms of how I look

at it. What for you you're going into season four, but season three to me was huge in terms of the character evolution and where people full like you're creating it, But what was kind of a moment that you look back on now as you're finishing writing season four that was like a highlight, like, oh shit, this character or these characters or this storyline really you know, added flesh and teeth to where this person was even from the

feature film to the first season. Well, I think Lionel storyline last season in season three, meeting with the Deonte character and sort of really getting because you know, Lionel has been our eyes and ears to the queer experience at Winchester, but Lionel himself, you know, part of what his character is about is sort of learning to open up to a new world that has always felt a

little bit bigger than him and intimidating. And so you know, because he's our eyes nearest to the queer world at Winchester, we haven't really been able to see a ton of it because he is very early in that evolution and when he meets Deonte, and Deonte kind of you know, opens them up to this whole other group of people

and experiences. You know, for me, that was really gratifying because as a queer writer filmmaker, I certainly identify with where Lionel was and is in the story of Dear White People, But I was eager to show, you know, the world beyond that that sort of like beginner kind of initiation that Lionel was going through, and you know, to get more of that experience into the overall storytelling

of Dear White People was very gratifying. I mean, all of the characters haven't come such a long way since the movie, but you know, I think Lionel really was on an island in the movie. He you know, he was, he wasn't really friends with any of the people yet, and so now he is. He is fully embedded within this community. He has a place within these people, and I think, you know, for queer people of color trying to find our place within the larger community of color.

You know that that's a big story for me personally, and it's one of you know, many things about that season that I found so exciting and so exhilarating because we Season three really was about like the nature of growth and how unexpected and spontaneous it can feel, and how it can happen, and how overwhelming it can be. But there's also a lot of new possibilities that come

from from that experience. You know. It's like when we dare to grow outside of what we think of ourselves, it's very frightening, but it's also very hopeful and exciting, and I just have a lot of fun trying to capture that spirit. One of the other characters that I felt like really took us, took me, and I think

audiences just in general on a journey was Reggie. Yeah, you know, like he I mean, he was a heart and then my heart broke for watching, you know, him being the character that went through a traumatic experience being at gunpoint by a police officer, and you know him being you know, it started out as like this revolutionary right, like we're going to be fighting the man and then coming face to face with what that means, and then rappling with the trauma of the confrontation of what it

means to be hunted by police, what it means to be seen as a target, as this violent offender tell me about that story because we got to see, honestly, not just the he didn't become a hashtag right, right, So we actually get to see the traumatic impact of that confrontation with the campus police and being at gunpoint and how you're supposed to the right way or not,

how you move through that. Yeah, I mean, we really wanted to get into the humanity of it is sort of beyond the kind of issue based sort of storytelling that you kind of find and other shows about this sort of topic where it's like it happens one week and then the characters move on, or a character has tragically died, or you know, it's sort of like a one time thing. You know. When we have these experiences in the world, they live in us for the rest

of our lives. And I think the Reggie's life after the experience with the campus police and how he is dealing with that trauma, to me, was the most interesting and helpful part about his journey. And I think, you know, for Reggie, to me, Reggie really is the heart of the show. He has our gut, you know what I mean, Like, you know, Sam and Lionel fight over our intellect, and the Coco has the one liners, and she gives us some of our spirit, But Reggie is our heart, you know.

And I'm very invested in showing, you know, what it looks like to become the man that you project yourself to be at the beginning of a journey like this, and then when you encounter hardships and you realize how difficult and traumatic it is to sort of live up to your own sort of way you see yourself. I'm very invested in showing Reggie doing that successfully and showing us how to do it. And you know, I think we give him a lot of obstacles to overcome because

those are the ones we're overcoming ourselves. Like you know, in season three, he sort of finds a savior figure in Blair Underwood, and I think we all certainly that the especially when we were making that season, I certainly was grappling with, you know, what do you do when these heroes in your head have helped you overcome time and time again all of the negative thinking that society has sort of put on me when those heroes themselves are found wanting or divisive or dangerous or you know,

we were losing the heroes left and right, and certainly with the Me Too movement, you know, I think necessarily so, but still like for black people, these aren't just entertainers or interesting people. These are the people who made us feel like we could do anything. And these are people who made us feel like we could get out of bed at the boarding and make us feel like we're worthy. What do we do when those people let us down? How do we find those resources in ourselves? I think

that's really the journey of Reggie. And you know, in that way, he sort of you know, for me, he represents where my heart has been at each year that we've made the show. Whatever's happening with Reggie, like that is saying something about me emotionally. It's a sort of like sneak peek into my into my inner psyche, as it were. Yeah, yeah, the way that you have just developed these characters, how you know connected people have become to them. Does it surprise you the way that people

have connected so much to deer white people? And I know that you said like I can't imagine what it's like to land the plane on a journey like this. How do you do that? I guess is really the question, like is it a gut feeling that you were like, we have to wrap this up, or I know how to wrap this up, or I feel like it's time

to wrap it up. You know, the thing about this era of TV is that we never knew at the end of each season if we were coming back or for how long we were coming back, and so I never really had the luxury of being able to plot out like what the show was going to definitively be. But I certainly, you know, I've always known for me anyway, with the show is really at its core about and

this season, I'm doing what I always do. I'm bringing my whole heart into the process, the things that I'm struggling with, the things that I'm excited about, the things that I'm obsessed with, and I'm having all of my writers do the same. And you know, we all love these characters and so we want to respectfully bring their storylines to a conclusion that feels honest and real. But we also are just dealing with our shit in our art. I mean, that's really what Dear White People is on

this side of it. You know, On one hand, I'm not surprised that people connect to it, because I know, I mean, we really put our foot in the show. Like it is not like we're not just doing some bs, like we are really actively thinking about all the choices are going to the show. We're trying to like dig really deep every season to put the things that are

really on our hearts in the show. And so, you know, I think it's natural that people will connect to it if you know the creative team is doing that on a consistent basis. But on the other end, you know, I don't expect that ever, So you know, I have terrible self estates, so you know, I'm always a little surprised where people like the things I do, which again I am in therapy and we are working. We are working on that. We are we are all a work

in progress. Listen, actively working on it. What does it feel like to you to create these days? As you're no longer a newbie right like, you have been in this game now for quite some time. You have had a lot of success. And again I say that to you. You may you may challenge yourself in other ways, but from the outside, I will say you've had tremendous success. What does it mean to be a black queer creative right now? For you in Hollywood it's a battle. It's

a battle. I am very grateful that I've had success in that I get paid to do what I love to do. But you know, all of the sort of insecurities and this is not like a woe was Me situation, but like you know, growing up queer in black is not easy, period. It is not easy. And just to get into the industry, you have to fight so hard to get people to see you and to get people to think of your stories as important as the other

stories that are dominating the culture. And once you get in there, that drive doesn't really turn off that sort of feeling that you know, people aren't getting it, or they aren't seeing you, or you know, the difficulties of making things for me versus you know, I'm looking at my sort of white, straight counterparts. It's so evident all the time that it's a little hard to sort of not see some of the challenges that are in your way.

Even with success. And I think there is greater pressure because especially you know, our folks, because we have so little, we have so few pieces of content. When we do get things, you know, we're very critical. And I think that that's great. I think that's important, But there's a lot of pressure to sort of tell everybody's story, but tell your own and be truthful, and also form to the marketplace just so you can have funding to do it.

That's a lot of things to juggle, and you know, certainly the voices in my head that tell me I'm not good enough, or I don't really belong here, or I'm an imposter, all those voices are very much with me, you know, as I do this work. You know, I'm no different than anyone else who is dreaming to be in this spot. You know, I'm still once you get there, you're still the same. Your brain is still put together

the same way. You know. For me, it's really just about like not letting success become a burden or become a pressure point, or become, you know, sort of this obstacle that can never be overcome, and to just try to work for my most authentic self as much as I can. And I think what I have to make peace with is that, like I'm an artist that likes

to challenge. I like making things that challenge audiences to watch differently, to grapple with questions when the thing is over, And you know that's not always the same thing as making something that's just popular and fun that makes people happy. That's not my path. My path is to make things that make us see ourselves differently. The response to that is a very complicated thing. And you know, it's funny.

I was at Sundance this last time and everyone was talking about like, well, Dear White People was such a darling and it was such a huge hit and all this kind of stuff, And I just remember at the time when Dear White People came out, like, I didn't feel that way. You know, the industry. No, I absolutely

did not feel like a darling of the industry. I was, you know, having to fight all these battles just to get a release to and have marketing budgets, and you know, these Q and A's were routing man because Dear White People at the time was still really new. The concept of like a multi protagonist group of people of color shot in the cinematic style and was weird and outside the boy. That was like a new thing in twenty fourteen, and you know, now it's sort of like a given.

But at the time, like people did not know what to do with that movie or to do, you know, not everybody knew what to do with it. It was not like a universal embrace. You sort of remember that way, which is interesting. But I just have to keep reminding myself that, you know, I'm not doing it for just unabashed popularity or you know, praise. I'm doing it because I love art that makes us think and wakes us up and inspires us and lights us on fire. That's the kind of art I love to consume. So it's

not how do you stay grounded in that? Because that, to me, I mean, that sounds beautiful and real and incredibly authentic, and you're you're navigating that and holding that in a town that is anything. But how do you not let the perceived popularity get to your head? How do you not like start to ride your own shit? You know, essentially, and Twitter certainly makes it very hard

to ride your own ship. No, I mean, look, you know, when I get a bad review, or you know, a random person I don't know sort of makes, you know, a big attempt to let me know they didn't like something I did. You know, that stuff cuts really deep, And I think for me, it's just been about trying to break into the industry. It's always been about them, whoever they are the audience, the executives, the public, whoever. It's always been about, like, you know, how do they

see me? And my value is only as high as other people decide that it is. And on the other side of you know, having a breakthrough success like I did with Dear White People at the movie and the show, is sort of having an internal sense of when I've done something and when I've completed something, and when I've achieved something that you know, is separate from its reception, it's box office, it's whatever, it's acceptance into this festival where that I have to have something going on inside

of me that tells me good job, justin that is separate. Even while I make things for other people, obviously, you know, I want audiences to come to my stuff and to get things out of it. But it really has been about developing that internal sense of you know, this is good enough and you're okay, and here's another story that

is worth telling. Yeah. Do you think that we will see whenever we come out of this current moment, whenever we come out of this global pandemic and we start to rehabit the new Earth, as people are saying, and we find ourselves further along in this transition. What do you think that the responsibility will be of art to kind of tell the story of what we're going through and how we're going through it. I hope the responsibility

will be taken with honesty. I think this is going to be a very hard thing to make sense of while we're experiencing it. I think we're all trying to. I think it's important to try to like explain and talk about what it's like as we're going through it.

But I really feel like we're not really going to know what this meant until we're out of it, and you know, it's going to take some time to really truthfully lect on this time period because while we're going through we're all still gathering so much information, we're still processing it, you know. So I hope the response to

it will be an honest one. Otherwise, you know, I don't want it to just be like tragedy born or like you know, or escapism either where we just never deal with it ever, you know, I sort of, you know, but I don't know what it means yet. You know, we haven't gotten to that new Earth. I don't, you know. I there's so many things that this pandemic is going to have an effect on that we cannot imagine right now. You know, part of me just wants to sit quietly and watch and see what this is going to do.

You know, I'm certainly hopeful about certain aspects of it, but I'm terrified about others, especially the economic impact on the world and this country, and specifically on people who color. Of course, black folks are you know, being affected disproportionately by this pandemic, which to me is not a surprise. No, it is not if youven paying attention. Yeah, but what does that mean for us afterwards? You know, I'm still

absorbing and grappling with that. Yeah, it's all really interesting, and I think think that it varies in how and who I talk to, right in what industry that they happen to be in, the politicals that I talk to, they're talking about, you know, the responsibility of government and how people will see leadership. Differently for folks that are writers, you know, actors, they're thinking about like, you know, how do I tell this story and what does this story

look like moving forward? And I guess we will wait and see. But one of the last questions that I always ask people on PM mood is, how do you get in the mood to change the world? Boy, to get in the mood to change the world. For me, it always has to be about returning to myself. I can't change the world unless I change myself, and unless I, you know, try to remove the obstacles within me to my greater self and my higher purposes. You know. For me, it's about being as careful as I can with myself

and as gentle as I can with myself. For me, it's about out of a Buddhist practice, it's about therapy. It's about finding an outlet for all the things that go through my head. It has to start with the individual, I think it really does. You have to know yourself and you have to know your own trauma and understand your own reflexes to things to really effectively be able to connect with other people and make change. So I don't know, that's my sort of koumba y'all, little answer, Well,

I love it. Thank you justin so very much for the work that you do, for the art that you create, for the honesty that you have about all of it. It's so tremendously refreshing, And every time I talk to you. I'm like, oh, it's like a deep breath. I love talking to you and I'm breath fresh. Share So please stay safe, stay healthy, and hopefully I will see you on the other side of all of this. Yes, I can't wait to give you a big old hug. Will we be able to do that again? I hope so.

I will find a way. I hope so find the way to hug again in the introm air. Hugs to you, Thank you, thanks for listening to this week's PM Mood. Just a quick announcement, my other political podcast, Woke af Daily, is now on Patreon. You get me five days a week forget this, folks, just five dollars a month. That is five fresh shows a week for just five dollars a month. Thanks for staying loyal and helping to support independent media. And you can continue listening to PM Mood

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