Attacking Assumptions

discussing gun reform. And you know, Jonathan is our expert on gun reform and on how to speak to gun owners, particularly with his new book, What We've Become. And so we get into a conversation where we disagree, and I think that we should not run away from those conversations. I think that it is important for us to find ways to connect and understand that what works for one group of people may not work for another group of people.

And you know, if you watched Vice President Harris's campaign rally in Atlanta, which my god, folks, I tell you, let me tell you, it's been a long time since I have felt hopeful. It's been a long time since I have felt possible and I am feeling all of those things and more. Her speech was absolute fucking fire. The call out, the direct call out to Donald Trump is exactly what his misogynistic in sell. You know, white supremacist organization right cult cannot stand black women in power,

women of color in places of authority. And you know, having the audacity to call him out and so in doing so and doing it with the smile and doing it with swag is exactly what shows the difference between her campaign and Biden. I think that Kamala Harris's campaign right now is one that feels fresh, It feels vibrant,

It is exciting, It is mimeable, which matters, right. And you know, while I will continue to say that I respect Joe Biden, I respect his act of patriotism that he did, there was a serious, heavy tone to his campaign. It was not hopeful, right, saving the soul of the

nation while factual was not hopeful. And so the VP's ability to pivot from that into freedom and into using Beyonce and into using images of things that we hold dear as Americans, I think has galvanized folks in a way that we missed dearly and a way that you know, even Obama two thousand and eight. While this is reminiscent, this is wholly a separate beast, and I am just for one here for it. Coming up next, my conversation

with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever we have the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are always thrilled. First of all, Jonathan, let me tell you that your book Dying of Whiteness comes up now more than ever in just regular conversation that I have, which is actually like

really funny. So I don't know why that is, but it is coming up more and just casual conversation that I'm having, not even like political conversations, so you're on everybody's mind like what.

dismantled right now. And I think that all the issues that I was writing about as like almost historical, like, oh God, isn't it crazy that we almost took down our whole healthcare system during a pandemic, But now it's all coming back, Like if Trump wins, he's going to dismantle the justice system, He's going to dismantle the I mean, the affordable carecter would be gone, you know, and people like in places like New York would lose massive health insurance.

And so just the craziness that was just confined to a couple of states when I read about it, now threatens to be a national thing. And so I think people are wanting to understand kind of what we're up against.

but like I would never live in that place. And now that I think that there is this deep understanding that what is happening, what they've been proposing, isn't something that's going to stay in Florida, isn't just going to stay in Texas. That it is something that can travel and become a national crisis, right, And that is what's conjuring. So maybe they'll want you to talk about your new book in ten years.

those issues are. We know that on top right now we have issues as it pertains to abortion and reproductive rights that span from abortion to IVF to birth control and so on and so forth. But always I think at the top of many people's lists is gun reform, because every time that there is a shooting, there is always a call for gun reform and then we go back to normal. So, as you are seeing the momentum gain speed around Vice President Harris, where do you think

they this campaign should be taking the gun debate? As you have said that Republicans at this point are now just pushing for everyone to have a gun. You get a gun, and you get a gun, and you get a gun, and using the shooting at Donald Trump's rally as their trampoline for that.

I support background checks. But that's really different from can you win elections based on background checks? Will people vote based on guns as a wedge issue, which they won't.

We won the war of popular opinion, we've won the war of social media, but we are stuck, I think, electorally stuck by not seeing that that popular support because we've made all these assumptions, Like one example I talk about in the book is common sense gun reform, as if, of course anybody with any common sense would support this, and if you don't support it, you have no common sense. That is roundly rejected across many gun owning purple and

red states. And I think we have to attack those assumptions. And so I think it's an opportunity for the Harris campaign to first, and this is just my personal opinion talk about gun ownership. In other words, what democrats so often do is they jump in and they just talk about regulation right away, like it's not like, oh, I understand why people own guns, or here's why people need guns,

or here's what it means to carry a gun. Something that reflects the people who might be persuaded to vote for you if you're not going to tell them the government's going to regulate your guns, which is what people hear. And so when people vote, they hear Donald Trump's voice saying that they're coming to grab your guts or I'm not going to let anybody come because I'm going to defend your guns. Those are really powerful messages for people.

And I just think Democrats get into a mistake, into a trap, and I'm seeing the Harris campaign do it now where the first thing they're talking about is regulation and not about gun ownership. Now, why is that important? Number One, we have way, of course, way too much gun death in this country. We have fifty thousand gun deaths a year on average, but there are four hundred and fifty million guns privately owned. There are over two hundred million gun owners, and so we're talking about fifty

thousand and they're talking to two hundred million. And so in a way, by not talking about what it means to own and carry a gun, what it means to have public space, these other issues that are not linked just to preventing shootings. I just again, I want to prevent shootings, but I think we go down the wrong path. We immediately alienate people. So if I was doing the Hairs campaign, which I'm not, I would say, talk first about gun ownership, about gun carry, about public safety, about

public space, about crime, and then talk about regulation. I don't think they're going to take my word for it because they're being advised.

we don't want bad people having guns. But the two problems with that. First of all, is that, as I said, we already have like five hundred million guns and circulation. And so even though everybody's like yelling about background checks, that's not going to matter. It's like taking plastic bags out of the ocean. It's not going to matter for a very very very long time. And so that's part

of it. But the other thing is, if you have an incarceration record, for example, you ping on a background check. So who do you think ping's on a background check? People of color, communitic color, who then go to the quote unquote legal gun market and stuff like that. So the whole system is just like we act. I think too often like oh, we need these three things and red flag wells and all these things, and I think

we just don't see the bigger picture. And so for me, when I write about this and talk about it, I have like a broader agenda. I talk about gun safety entrepreneurialism where we can actually take examples from high risk communities, as you and I have talked about. They're all these initiatives like jobs programs and fixing street lights and green space and all these kind of things that I think can be a real national agenda for let's invest and

also reward monetarily community safety. I think there's all these algorithms that we could do. We could do much more about AI technology reducing guns, which is linked to a.

would just be my way. I mean, I mean, I don't know if you have enough time if you're a political candidate, but I would just talk about why people feel like they need guns and about the bigger gun markets. The thing is, I just think you need to lead with like, here's the bigger issue, here's the bigger problem, and speak to the politics of gun ownership. Because places like Wisconsin, as you're saying, have open carry, for example, they have permitless carry, so there are a lot of

people carrying guns. And so the minute you just start speaking with here's the regulations we need for common sense or something like that the minute you jump in with regulations first, I just feel like anybody who might be crossing over to your side, and I just say, I've interviewed like over a thousand gun hunters, and I can tell you it's like it's like they're automatic news on the other side, and for a lot of people, it's an autobat no. So I would start with like, let

me try to understand the issue and let's come up with some new solutions something like that. That just feels like she rebooting this debate. That feels stuck and intransigent.

I guess my fear is again, as I said, if you're just saying we need common sense gun andform and we need to regulate, and we need assault weapons ban, which again they're already thirty million whatever AR fifteen is floating around, it just becomes people who are already convinced are going to be convinced, and people who are not convinced are not going to hear like they're spoken to.

And the reason I'm saying this specifically is because of states like Pennsylvania, for example, real swing states, Wisconsin, things like that, where there are a lot of gun owners who are in the quote unquote undecided voter category. So I don't know. I just I feel like we've tried the way of like bashing people over the head with gun regulation in the past, and I'm just urging a new tone.

conversation for the last thirty plus years. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that just a change in tone is going to soften gun owners who have been so hardened to the place of this is mine, this is mine, and I don't care about the safety of my neighbor because I've always said, why can't we come from a place of community care as opposed to just individual rights?

And so I just think that it creates this easy divide between people on our side and people on their side, which is in part, you know, we're in a zero s on political system. That's probably how it works. But it's also that it's just an automatic no for gun owners, many gun owners who might come to your side. And so I just think, like I was in Minneapolis Saint

Paul yesterday, and they're doing incredible things, right. They're taking this problem of rampant gun crime in many parts of the city, and they're doing all of these programs, all of these investments, they're investing in all these civic things,

they're building, all these programs. It's actually created new avenues of civic life because they realize that like owning a gun is also a form of self protection and the police aren't going to come around, and all these kind of things, like people own guns, and also like white

people own guns, so why shouldn't we own guns? Gun ownership is really complicated, and I wish we had no guns as you know, but I also know that we're in a world right now where I guess my sense just from my data is that Democrats are not voting on guns as a wedge issue so much, but gun owners, if they feel like they're being regulated, that is a big motivation for them not to vote for Democrats. And

I'm just arguing that we rupture that now. I agree that we have like less than one hundred days, so I do think that a change in tone is maybe superficial, but it's also an opportunity right now because we have like a surprise candidate to reboot this debate, and I don't in a way that I don't think would lose her any support, and especially because it's just the automatic trap we fall into is like there's a shooting, the

Trump shooting. One side says we need regulations. The other side, the Trump side, says, this is why people need to be armed, because this unexpected situation could come and we lose that calculus. And so I'm just trying to say, let's strategize rupturing that calculus. I realize I'm not convincing you right now, but maybe one of our viewers.

years since Columbine, Right, and how many shootings there have been, and how many mass shootings there have been, And so I don't know if again saying, hey, gun owner, I understand that there are a myriad of reasons why people own guns. Some is for protection, other is is for you know, safety, other is is for sport blah blah blah blah blah. But the reality is, we have more guns in this country than we do people and people

as a community. We should be safe to go into houses of worship, to go into our schools, to go to the movie theater, to go to the mall, to go to a concert without thinking that this may be our last moments on earth because of somebody with a gun. But what do we also know all of those people who have been found to have been shooters all got

their guns legally. So like again, I am at a crossroads as everyone is, where I don't understand, like I don't if a classroom full of dead children doesn't change your mind, I don't know if a fucking tone change does. Right, like me saying hey, I was a girl scout and I got a gun badge, Like, I just don't see you know how that works.

And maybe this is not the right time to do it, but I'm just saying that, considering that a lot of the purple states, a lot of the swing states are strongly gun owning states, I think that a stance of a different kind of democratic messaging, I personally feel like and maybe there's a better way to say what I'm saying, which is, again my point is just jumping right in with regulation, You're just going to get the people who are already going to vote for you, but you're not

going to get if people are voting on guns as a wedge issue, They're going to hear that and they're going to I mean, owning a gun. I have a lot about this in my book also makes you nervous that someone's going to take your gun. In fact, it's an incredibly powerful message, and the other side is messaging these guys are going to take your guns. And so

I'm just trying to recap their strongest strategy here. But also I do believe kind of what I'm saying, which is that to say, hey, look, regulation is one part of this problem, but we also need to do ABC and D to rebuild civic space and trust, to make guns safety profitable and entrepreneurial, to create all these other factors. Like I just think that it's got to be couched in a message because otherwise people just hear that same message of an assault weapons ban. It sounds great, It

sounds great if you don't own an assault weapon. But if you own an assault weapon, which is many millions of people in Purple States, it's not like you want the government coming taking your air fifteen. And so I'm just saying that this is, to me, is a point where we can kind of reframe the debate and sound different.

I mean, Kamala Harris, the great thing about her campaign is it's unformed, right, you know, she has a chance to actually reboot these debates, and I just feel like if she comes out sounding too predictable about a lot of these issues, it's just got to be too easy

to frame her. And the other issue is that, you know, I don't know if her background is right for this, but I you know, I wrote a lot, as you know about how talking about crime, like you just assumed, for example, that you conflated gun owners with mass shooters in what you just said, and it's true. I mean, I hate mass shootings. They're horrific. I mean they're really

horrific and uncomfortable. We should have zero of them. But it's also important to note that like zero point two percent of guns are ever even fired against other people, Like most people carry their guns out of fear, and they don't see a mass shooting as the need for regulation. They see a need for like, oh, I want to carry a gun, and if it ever happens to me, that's my soapbox.