America's Final Precipice

This week's episodes, I'm sorry to say, have been utterly and completely depressing and really hard to do, frankly, because I don't understand how we are still in a place of indecision, or still in a place of people saying stupid fucking things like they're not going to vote or there's no difference between these two parties. I don't know what else I can possibly do and offer, but I know that for as long as I have WOKF, I am going to tell the truth until the truth becomes illegal.

And those are the things that I have been thinking about. I have been thinking about what must it have been like to live inside of Germany and Austria, as Hitler was making his way across Europe. What must it have been like to live inside of South Africa during apartheid? What must it be like to be in Gaza, to be occupied the way that the Palestinians are in Israel? What must it be like to live inside of Iran

and Turkey and Hungary. So many places around the world have dealt with or are dealing with authoritarianism and dictatorships. It never occurred to me in my entire life, in my entire life, that America could be one of them. I have always believed in the possibility of this country. I've always believed in its creed, even if it has never lived up to it entirely. I've always believed what Bill Clinton once said, that there is nothing that is wrong with America that can't be fixed with what is

right by America. But we are in danger. The forces of evil have conspired to drag this country back into the darkest, darkest depths of itself, to a time when white supremacy was the law of the land, where patriarchy was the law of the land, where black people had no rights, women had no voice and no protection, where people who were queer had no safe space except in dark basements and dark bars where workers had no protections and no rights and were subjected to the will of

their employers, which were pretty much like they're enslavers. That is the future, that is Project twenty twenty five. There are many people who are still alive because Jim Crow was not that long ago. That remember that time in America. It is why black people have been and black women in particular have been the foundation of the Democratic Party because so many remember Ruby Bridges is only sixty five years old, the first young black girl to integrate schools

following Brown versus the Board of Education. Folks, that wasn't so long ago. And these white supremacist bastards have had the desire to bring us back. And like you know what has been said by Kevin Roberts, by Donald Trump, by so many Republicans, they got more guns on their side. Oh it'll remain bloodless so long as we are complicit in our own subjugation. They are ready to rock, folks, They are ready to turn this country into a nightmare.

They get off on fear and terror. So you want to spend time fighting for your life after or fighting for yourself right now with your vote those are the decisions that we have in front of us, and coming up next, Sky Perryman and I will get into deeper

conversation about what is at stake, folks. I am so happy to welcome back to wok F Daily Sky Perryman, who is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward, a non partisan national legal organization that promotes democracy and process through litigation, regulatory engagement, policy, education and research, and has

made many appearances on Sky. Today, we are recording at a time when the Supreme Court gave what I am effectively as many people are calling, one of the last major blows to our democracy by granting a president absolute immunity so long as they can prove that whatever acts they were committing were done so officially. In the descent to that decision, Sonya, so to Mayor Justice KBJ. Kagan, they all basically said, in fear of our democracy, we dissent.

Give us your thoughts and reactions to this egregious move by the Supreme Court to effectively give a president the same rights and privileges as a king.

to act swiftly and to move towards that trial. No one is above the law. But this is a very devastating day for our democracy. This occurs against the backdrop, as you know, we've talked about it before on your show, but in twenty twenty one, the United States was added to the list of backsliding democracies after the rampant election denialism and the attempted insurrection at the Capitol. And so this is really a very unfortunate and harmful and very

highly concerning, dangerous step that could accelerate that backsliding. Further said, we know that people in this country do have a voice, and it's going to be very important, as we always emphasize when we talk together, Danielle, that people and communities understand what's going on, be vigilant and demand better from their elected leaders and also from the Supreme Court.

to look like five months from now? So what does it look like to have this decision come forward and then be thinking about where we go from here in terms of your own organization and then as a society.

of all, understanding what's going on and demanding more. It turns out that while our Constitution wasn't perfect and didn't include everybody when it was drafted, there are tools in that constitution that can in fact bring about a better society. Our Congress, our elected branch of government, has a role to play with respect to courts, when justices are acting out ethically, when justices have conflicts of interest, and when the courts are not functioning in the way they should

function in a democracy. Our Congress has power there or state legislation at the state level, and elected representatives at the state level have state based power and state based disputes and vites, And so I think it's really important that we look at all of the avenues and use

all the tools that our democracy can provide. It is pastime for Congress and for the American people to hold the Supreme Court accountable and to hold federal judges accountable if they are not going to defend democracy and fully execute their obligations under the Constitution. But also we can be prepared, and we can be prepared in courts across

the country. So maybe we'll talk a little bit about what else we saw the suppose sure, and how we have been anticipating this and have tools for communities to be able to use their voices at this time to build for the democracy that we all know the American people want, believe in and deserve.

Congress passes broad laws to help solve problems for folks in the country, but it's really the executive branch, that presidential branch and all the federal agencies that have to execute the laws. But this term the Supreme Court dealt a devastating blow, including today, by the way, and the other decision it issued in Corner Posts versus Federal Reserve, but then also in two other cases known as Low or Bright and relentless, delta devastating blow to that system

of government, essentially consolidating power in itself. The Court as opposed to the way for more than forty years, and you can even go back for decades before that government has functioned, where when Congress passes the law that protects people, it's our federal agencies that interpret and implement that law

in accordance with their expertise setting policy and regulation. The Court really delta devastating below to that system by overturning something known as Chevron defference, which of course I think your viewers are probably our listeners are probably hearing about.

And so this is a really hypocritical moment, right because you have the Supreme Court deciding against the federal executive with respect to routine policy making that it has been doing for decades, but then consolidating just really unprecedented amounts of almost keen like power with respect to this immunity decision,

which is incredibly unfortunate. So a democracy forward, we understood that these cases were going to be coming down, and so we've been really building a lot of resources where we can track what far right organizations that others might seek to do with these new developments in the law, to enable people and communities to go into the courts early on and to be able to explain why these are horriful decisions that should not be expanded further, and to be able to really push back.

coming down from the Supreme Court. For others, you know, I just alerted my own family to the decisions that have been coming down, and they are beside themselves and they're just like, what was like, what was the point of us voting for Biden? What was the point of us being told that we were going to hang on to democracy in this next election when four years later, this is where we are, We're worse off than we were in twenty twenty. So what does democracy moving forward actually look like?

I will also say that our elected representatives have work to do. Congress has power to fix the court to ensure that justices are operating ethically. It is absolutely absurd that we have, years after we are dealing with rampant election denialism denihalism, by the way, that started in twenty sixteen when former President Trump did not win the popular

vote and sought to dispute facts and evidence. But we still see this movement now throughout the country, not associated with any particular candidate, and we see this movement throughout the country. It's really important we have Supreme Court justices that have been seen with insurrection as symbols flying outside of our homes and so here are you know, our

constitution provides the tools. It is time for Congress to take a much closer look than it has been taking at the Court, and to use its power to demand that the Court be subject to binding ethical codes, to think about court reforms that are a number of them that have been proposed by people like Jamie Raskin, by others in the Senate as well, and the House, the Incenate as well, And so I think that there are

these tools. The other thing I would say is that there has been a lot of progress made in the past few years. We have seen the economy start doing better. We've seen people and communities be able to thrive in certain ways. But we have also seen, as a result of I think the rising tide of a more inclusive, more vibrant of allocracy for all people, this extreme pushback which you see with things like Dobbs and the overturning of Rogie Wade. And we'll get to the Court's abortions

decisions this time and other things. And so it's important to know who's behind these This is not a majority of Americans. This is a well funded, highly coordinated extremist movement that is seeking to be louder and will power over everyone. And part of it is making up our minds that we're not going to let them have the last word. We're going to do the work. We're going to be able to look this destruction in the eye

and not blink and speak out. And I know that people are very tired in this moment, but think about what people that came before us did in times of pail and we would not be where we are today without the persistence in the fight for a true democracy. And so that's what we're really trying to focus our work on and using the tools under these new legal frameworks in order to push back.

are out there. Several years ago when the far right really started, it didn't start, but really several years ago when we started seeing the first evidence of really how far the spar right capture had gone with respect to some of our courts. I think the American people didn't really know how serious it was, or it was hard to understand it. We have now seen YEP with dog YEP with decisions last summer, with decisions that are undermining

the environment. This term, we're having a decision that's going to make it easier for people to obtain automatic weapons. I mean, these are distructive decisions for our people and communities. And so I think the American public is there. If you look at the pulling people in our country right now are very dissatisfied with the extremism of the US Supreme Court and of the movements behind it, and so it is important that everyone do, including Congress, the part of this time.

and to be immune from anything that they do. And that is just like again, the seriousness and the connecting of the dots of where we are and what was just decided mif of pristone and Mtala, two major decisions that came down. Talk to us about where we are on that, because the Atala decision in a lot of ways was still, according to Justice Katanji Brown Jackson, a dawdling continuing dawdling of the Supreme Court in the permission structure that is necessary to save people's lives in Idaho.

So tell us about where we are there.

that dire condition. The emergency rooms that take federal funds, which is the vast majority of them, have to provide emergency care. Unfortunately, after Dobbs, far right attorney generals working with these far right organizations that are responsible in many ways their funding structures, are responsible for the courts that we have today. They are opposing basic federal law and saying that state abortion bands can override federal emergency room protections,

which is not what our constitution says. Again, our Constitution does have some tools there, and it's very clear in the Constitution that federal law takes precedence over state law on the two conflict. This got up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court essentially has delayed its substantive decision

in the matter. It did issue a ruling that will enable women in Idaho who have been deprived of emergency care for months of emergency here because the Supreme Court itself stayed a district court order that was seeking to protect these women. So again this is a problem of the Court's own making. The Court is returning this issue down to the lower courts, and as a result, in Idaho, women right now will be able to get some of that emergency care. But the Court declined to rule definitively

as it should have and as our constitution requires. The Idaho abortion band conflicted with this federal protection. What that means is for women in Texas, for women in Florida, for women across the country in these states that a band abortion where far right attorney's generals and special interest organizations are seeking to deprive people of an emergency medical care, They're still going to be deprived of that care apbsent

additional intervention. The cynical part, because we started talking about Seneca, We're not going to give rise to it. But I am going to point this out. The cynical part of this is that you know, we do know this is an important year in many ways, and we know how voters are respond to these attacks on our freedoms and particularly reproductive freedom, and particularly in these situations where these are moms and women who this is really die or

for their health. And so the cynical part of this is that the Court, of course has sort of avoided this issue while all eyes are on it in this gear.

And we already know that there are cases tied up, for instance, out of Texas and out of the Fifth Circuit where this could come back up to the Court, maybe in a quieter year, one where there's not a major national election, and the Court could could be poised to deprive people to go further than Daubs, even further than our constitution permits, and to deprive people of this care. So this is why I say it's really important that we all be following this or am I going to

give into the cynicism. We know that we're the majority. We know the vast majority of people in this country believe in the promise and potential of democracy, and it is time to start demanding that of everybody, whether they're in the judiciary, whether they're elected officials, you know, whoever

they are. But at the same time, we need to be wise to what's happening here and if a pristone case where we're really where we have been, you know, involved there, the Court rejected said that the case ever belonged in the court, that the special interest organization that brought the case was not harmed, did not have standing.

But as you see, the chaos is the point of this because it's been almost you know, it's been over year that there have been you know, emergency had you know, emergency every day where people are thinking they're going to be deprived of or that if a pristone is going to be restricted. And in that case also we have far right state attorneys general who have sought to intervene in the case in a lower course. We don't believe

they should be able to. But again that's another case that could come back up maybe when the court thinks that folks aren't paying as close as attention. So so I think these are really areas to watch. They are areas where with all of these cases, including the immunity case.

And I say this often on shows right now, but when extremists, you know, tell you what they're going to do, it's time to believe them, and it's time to believe them and get real serious about what we're going to do in this time, to fight for the democracy that we know that everyone that the vast majority of people in this country want and deserve.

we are better than this. The future that we deserve is better than this. The present that we live in needs to be better than this, and we are better than this, and we will do the work of democracy. And that has been the thing, not our institutions. It has been the people that have been the shining light in American society, pushing for the country that we know that we can be and what we needed this time.

And so I'll just lead that with your listeners, because I think that you know there isn't an institution that's going to swoop in and save us, but that we do have, we the people, and I will stand by the fact that our constitution, as imperfect as the circumstances were, as imperfect as it can be. As Barbara Jordan, late Congress from Barbara Jordan used to say, over time, through progress, she became included. We became included in we the people. And it is up to we the people in this moment.

So happy to always join you and thinking for what you are doing to make sure that people are informed. And I do think we cannot give into the cynicism, but it is we do. Got to go to work because there's a lot of work to do in this moment to make sure democracy is not a lofty ideal but actually something that can we get to live in in this country.