A Nation Adrift

the fuck the DOJ is. The thing that I have always appreciated about the past two years of conversations weekly with Glenn is how honest and fourth right he has been in one his understanding of the numerous amounts of crimes that Donald Trump the Trump administration committed over its four year tenure, and then the subsequent crimes that were committed after he lost the twenty twenty election and was

working over time to hold onto power. Glenns laid out in so many ways in which the Department of Justice should in fact take action. And where we start out today is where Glenn is just like, I mean, how many smoking guns do you need at this point does the Department of Justice need to activate? And I ask him, you know, the questions that annoy me that are consistently asked on cable news about you know, the sloth like, glacial like pace of this Department of Justice and what

he thinks right that they are waiting for. And you know, I got to tell you that my patience, as you all know because you've been listening to me for quite some time, is real thin, and it's pretty much fucking translucent at this point when it comes to the Department of Justice, because what came up from me with the League after the Cassidy Hutchinson testimony was that the Department of Justice was taken aback because they had no idea of any of the things that Cassidy offered up to

the committee. And I'm like, where the fuck have you guys been for the last eighteen months? Like seriously, when Merritt Garland took to the podium in recognition of the anniversary of the assault on our democracy, he said that he would follow the facts wherever the facts led him, and however high up they led him. And I say to Glenn on this episode, well, one would need to leave their fucking house and actually open up the goddamn

door and to follow facts any which way. But if you continue to bury your head in the sand, or better yet, find yourself in the Ukraine talking about Russian oligarchs and what it is that this Department of Justice is doing to protect Ukrainian democracy, But you don't have the same fucking base in your voice for American oligarchs in the way in which you have allowed and enabled, in fact, the wealthy in this country, the white in this country, to be able to crime and broad fucking daylight.

And the only people that are being held accountable are the Stephen Ayres of the world, the foot soldiers, the ones that quote unquote got caught up and wanting to believe what their president had said, And now after you've lost your home and your job, are like, oh, maybe he was a fucking crook and a liar, right, and a fucking grifter. Now I'm putting words into Stephen Ayre's mouth.

And look, folks, I am the last person that feels bad for any of these people that find themselves now jobless or facing time and actual prison for betraying their country. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, the Department of Justice has arrested and in you know, over eight hundred people, right, and many of them have gotten slaps on the wrists or warnings or this, that and

the other thing, all because you know they're white. Like, let's just be real, we actually understand and know to be true that if these were people of color, they would be thrown under the jail and there would be all these talks about, you know, the preservation of democracy and you know, law and order and all of these things that pertain only to people of color and never pertain to white people. And so you know, this Department

of Justice. When you listen to this interview with Glenn, even somebody who has worked inside of the department, who still has friends and colleagues in this space, you can hear that he is running out of patience, right. And this is somebody who's spent thirty years doing federal prosecution and really believes in the justice system. But you will hear Glenn say that laws are only as good as

the people that are willing to enforce them. So we can talk about, you know, the creation of new laws, which I do ask him about with regard to domestic terrorism in this country, and believing that we actually do need statutes on the books that go after and can readily prosecute groups like the Oathkeepers and the Proud Boys. But the reality is that we have really good laws, but we don't have the willingness and the desire to hold everybody to the same set of laws. And that

is becoming clearer and clearer by the day. There is no way out of this situation that America finds itself in, which is, you know, just headed off of a cliff right without accountability. You know, there are questions that continue to be asked, and I did a TikTok video about it the other day, which is, you know, would it

hurt the country to prosecute Donald Trump? It's gonna fucking the country's going to be done if we don't prosecute Donald Trump and every single person that made themselves available in that fucking unhinged, crazy ass meeting on December eighteenth. If these people the architects, right, the master minds, which their minds are not masterfull of a goddamn thing but QAnon theories. But I digress. The people who put these

ideas and the insurrection into motion. If all that is prosecuted are the people that entered the building instead of the people that opened the door, gave them the key and shook them up and sent them and weaponize the crowd and sent them in that direction. Then our democracy is done. And you know that isn't hyperbolic at this point, Like you were watching what this overlord or Supreme Court is doing. You were seeing day in and day out,

what Republican governors are working to do. And so if there is no accountability for the crimes that Donald Trump and company have committed, then what do you think is going to happen when a Republican becomes president of the United States again? I'll tell you It'll be the last

fucking presidential election, plain and simple. You know, folks have eyes on twenty twenty four talking about whether or not Biden should run, and I'm like, your eyes should be fixated on November twenty twenty two, right and right now, Democrats are not polling well and why would they, right,

why would they be polling well? And people keep telling me, well, you know, you shouldn't go after Democrats and you should really set your targets on Republicans and I said, and to that, I say, Republicans have always shown us who the fuck they are. Republicans have never minced words or try to convince us they are people that believe in equity and justice for every single American in this country.

They do not. They make no qualms about that. So my qualms are with the people who say that they are of the people and then turn their back on them or do what the outgoing White House Director of Communications did, which is throw those activists, those people that are on the front lines of said movements under the bus and say that we're the ones that find ourselves out of step with the Democratic establishment. Well not according

to the fucking polls. So if this administration and this Democratic Party doesn't begin to actually take the pulse of the people, they're going to find themselves out of fucking jobs and we're going to find ourselves in an autocracy, plain and simple. Coming up next, my conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner. Indisputable with Doctor Rashid Ricci is one of the latest shows on the TYT network and also

the fastest growing news show in America. On his show, Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy dose of fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all the top news stories, focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics, police brutality, Karens, and much more. Listeners can also expect interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even fiery debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics.

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with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy would you Year goes deeper with the notable guests and experts from the Emmy Award winning series. Together, they use comedy to tackle current topics from gentrification to gun laws and take a closer look at how and why these topics matter. Listen to Beyond the Scenes from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you

get your podcast. New episodes every Tuesday. Folks, you know that whenever I have the opportunity to chat with our dear, dear friend, Glenn Kirshner, host of Justice Matters and MSNBC legal analyst. I get excited because somebody makes me feel less crazy than I feel after each and every one of these public hearings that happen, Glenn. So we have all now at this point experienced over and over again

the seventh hearing. We don't know if it's going to be the last hearing, but we do know that it is at least the seventh and in this one, much like the previous hearings, bombshell after bombshell, just more insight into the mindset of Donald Trump, into the fact that Donald Trump, this insurrection was not an accident. It was not people, It was the foot soldiers being caught up in the moment, but it was well strategized ahead of time, and Donald Trump was at the center of that strategy.

So before we jump into specifics, I just want to ask you, what are some of the things that stood out to you that we learned with this seventh hearing that came a lot from the mouth of White House

Council Pat Sippoloni. You know, we learned about that insane battle Royal in and around the Oval Office between I don't want to call them the adults in the room, maybe the aspiring adults in the room, Sippoloni and Hirshman, who, make no mistake about it, this is a team that enabled Donald Trump for a very long time and who refused to step forward and try to save the democracy

from Donald Trump for years. But they were the adults in the room as compared to Team Crazy, the QAnon crew of Flynn and Juliani and Powell and what became so painfully obvious and reinforced, you know, because we already knew that Donald Trump didn't care at all about facts

or evidence supporting claims of election fraud. There was a beautiful exchange between Powell and Hirshman when Powell said, you know all this fraud and there's you know, Hugo Chavis and the Nesta Thermostats and the Italian authorities, all this ridiculousness. And Hirschman said, you need to show us some eviden, some facts. And he said, you lost every single court

challenge you brought because you had no evidence. And Powell said, well, that's because all of the judges are corrupt and Hirschmann said, well, well, even the ones reappointed. But it became clear Donald Trump didn't want evidence, didn't need evidence, didn't care about evidence. He was determined to hold on to power by any

means necessary. So at the end of that battle Royale, which culminated with Rudy Giuliani being escorted out so he wouldn't sneak back into the White House, Donald Trump sent the tweet that set the date for the Capitol attack, and it was on. He'd run out of all other options and it was time to retain power by violence. You know, how many more smoking guns do we need? I'm sure we're going to get more smoking guns in the upcoming hearing this Thursday. How many more do we

need before DJ acts? I mean, Glenn, this is the I mean this, that's the question, Royal, right, this is the question that you know, since the first hearing, we've all been asking every rational person that's been paying attention, who, unlike yourself, does not have a law degree and does not have a career in federal prosecution. But I'm looking around and I'm saying, God, damn, I'm pretty sure a firstly year a law student could get this wrapped up I mean you you have you have intent because I

guess here's what I will say. Here's here's a question that I will ask, right, because every time that a prosecutor or a former Obama person is on is on cable news, the question is asked. You know about the fact that the difference between information being laid out and evidence, the difference between being able to show actual criminal intent, because then you have to show what Donald Trump thought. You tell me, has the committee not been able to

show absolute intent? And now, just what broke at the end of the week is that guess who else is corrupt? The entirety of the Secret Service that deleted all of their text messages between January fifth and January sixth. Oh, that's not suspicious at all. Yeah. First of all, information is evidence and evidence is information. Yes, we have to make sure that when we introduce something in court it is admissible, it withstands scrutiny under the federal rules of evidence.

But for gosh sakes, Danielle, we have Cassidy Hutchinson staying out of Donald Trump's mouth, out of the mouth of the Orange Horse himself. He said, I don't care that my supporters are armed with rifles and pistols. Take down the effing metal detectors. Let them in, and then we will all march on the Capitol because they're not here to hurt me my inference. They're here to hurt the people who are certifying my win up my loss up

the street. Okay, that is directly admissible, incriminating evidence. And I don't understand the people who continue to claim that the evidence doesn't prove Donald Trump's criminal intent are basically moon landing deniers. Now, I'm gonna go with my old boss,

Eric Holder. After Richard Donohue testified a couple of hearings ago that Donald Trump said, I don't care if the election wasn't corrupt, just say it was and leave the rest to me and my Republican allies in Congress, my old US attorney, my old boss, the guy that gave me a shot at being a federal prosecutor. Eric Holder tweeted out, the evidence of his criminal intent is overwhelming and anybody who claims we can't prove it in court,

that is a laughable claim. And just as you said a few minutes ago, you know, the Democrats are always running to the camera and saying this and saying that Eric Holder, lest we forget, was appointed as a judge to the bench in Washington, DC, the Superior Court by President Ronald Reagan. Thereafter, yes, he was appointed by Democrats. But this is somebody who, if you really want to be a thinking person, has enjoyed respect on both sides of the aisle until our country lost its mind along

tribal lines. And you know, there is no straight faced argument that a prosecutor cannot prove Donald Trump's corrupt intent. The only sticking point. For whatever reason, the Department of Justice is about one hundred miles behind the j sixth Committee with respect to its investigation. This is something that I hope we learned someday that there was a good reason for it, would all of the indictments come down

and everybody's been held accountable. But as of right now, I'm left scratching my head because I can't understand how DJ is not stepping up to try to hold these folks accountable and save our democracy. You know, I you know, there are two names, two names that people are are throwing around, which is obviously Merrick Garland, but also Lisa Monico and saying are these folks are are they are

they paying attention. One of the things that signal to me that to your point, the DJ is one hundred miles away is that news had leaked that the DOJ was shocked by Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. And I'm saying, why the hell are you? Why hadn't you interviewed her before? Why hadn't there been since you all were sworn in a series of investigations and you know, and interviews into what had been what happened? How did we get to

January sixth? The last thing that we all heard from Merrick Garland was saying, I'll follow the facts where the facts lead. But I guess you would have to open the door and leave the house in order to get on that path. So the thing that people keep saying is DJ can't get this wrong. They can't get it wrong, Glenn, because everything hangs in the balance. And here's the other thing that people keep saying, and I want your answer to this, can the country handle a former president being indicted?

What about the American people? Yeah, So if we decline to indict Donald Trump, then Ron de Santis or whoever the twenty twenty four nominee maybe gets to put our nation through everything that Donald Trump put us through and then some and he gets to do it with the stamp of approval from the Department of Justice, because the lack of an indictment of Donald Trump is as good as an endorsement from DJ that this is precisely what a presidential candidate or a president gets to do when

seeking office, at which point we're done as a democracy. So and you know, when you say DJ can't get it wrong, the only way they get it wrong is by not bringing charges against criminal politicians. That's the only wrong answer. Getting it wrong doesn't mean they indict. They go to trial, they fight like hell to win a conviction, honestly, ethically, in accordance with the Constitution, the laws, and the rules of evidence. And they don't win a conviction. That's not

getting it wrong, Frankly, that's getting it right. I always told my prosecutors it's more important to try cases then to win cases. The result is never guaranteed. And there are federal prosecutors who are afraid to run the risk of an acquittal or a hung jury because they're embarrassed. You know, they feel like a failure. You're only a failure.

I don't going to use the overused cliche, if you don't step into the arena and fight for the American people, fight for the rule of law, uphold your oath to faithfully execute the laws of the country. That's the only way you're a failure is if you refuse to take the fight into the arena. Remind us again of the path that a case like this would take. What are

the courts that it goes to? Because again, what most people who listen to Woke af are afraid of and keep asking is if this goes up to the Supreme Court, we lose? Right, Like, how do we not lose? We know the machination of the Supreme Court, We know that they're about power and Republican ideology above all else. So do we run the risk of it going up to the Supreme Court and getting a rubber stamp of approval.

So to the extent I can put your listeners minds at ease, let me tell you that's not That's one of the few things I don't worry about. And here's why. First of all, if it comes to a criminal trial, Donald Trump can and should be indicted right now for interfering, obstructing an official proceeding because he plainly interfered with the certification of Joe Biden's win. That's a laid down winner, and there are insurrectionists being convicted of that every day

in the courts of Washington, DC. UM, he can be indicted for inciting an insurrection and inciting an armed riot. Now we know armed because he knew they were as he knew so, and those are two slightly different charges. He can be A lesser known charge that we haven't talked about much is eighteen USC one eleven, which is impeding the duties of a government official. If ever somebody impeded the duties of Mike Pence and certifying the election,

it was Donald Trump. That's an eight year felony. Unless you do it while armed, which he did by extension, then it's a twenty year felony. He absolutely and I'm so glad. I've seen Lawrence Tribe and Morning Joe and some of the others say he has committed the offense of treason. He levied war. Okay, so this is what this is the big one. Treason, that's the big one. I don't even care about about seditious conspiracy. I think that's a bit tougher at the moment because it's hard

to prove an agreement. But I just re up the video that I put up last April about how this is a Hub and Spoke conspiracy. I was thrilled to see Andrew Weissman has said that now at an op ed piece in the New York Times. So he can and should be charged with all of those crimes, and I maintain he should be convicted of them all. Where does the case go from there, Well, he gets tried

in the Federal District Court in Washington, DC. His conviction would be appealed to the DC Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, which I predict will affirm his conviction. Then it goes to the Supreme Court. That's what gives us heartburn because we know the Supreme Court is compromised. But what the Supreme Court cares most about is the Supreme Court's own power. And the Supreme Court will look at the conviction of Donald Trump, will assess the quality and quantity of the

evidence that was introduced against him at trial. And I would bet the farm, Danielle that they will affirm Donald Trump's conviction because if they don't, if they bust his conviction and they put him back into the stream of politics. He will become a dictator. And you know what, a dictator has no need for a Supreme Court. So I don't have faith in the honor or ethics of the Supreme Court when they are in a position to decide

a case involving Donald Trump's power. But I think I have a low enough estimation of them that they will not do anything to install Trump as a dictator, because then they run the risk of losing their own supremacy. He'll become a dictator, and he'll say, hey, now go lock up those justices, because nobody is a top a dictator, and in our constitutional construct, the Supreme Court is the last spot when declaring what's lawful and constitutional. Donald Trump

won't like that. That's the same reason I believe the Supreme Court did not take up any of Donald Trump's election challenges, not because they're great, deep thinking jurists, but because they didn't want to run the risk of putting themselves out of business. So we then rely on their

egos in order, not their honor, but their egos. Um So here's another question, Glenn, and this is with regard to the testimony that we heard from uh Tottenhove, the former Proud Boy Uh, and then um the other foot soldier, Stephen as Steven Airs. Um. So first I want to talk about Jason Tottenhove. Um. He gave a very good

picture of who the Proud Boys are. That they are that January sixth, he said, in his words, was about an armed revolution, That they are a power militia group, that their desire is domination through fear, authoritarianism, all of these things. And he said, let's stop mincing words, right,

And I thought, finally, let's stop mincing words. Those two leaders of the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys are up on seditious conspiracy charges because they, by virtue of what we learned from the documentarian, did come together with an agreement on how they were going to take on the capital. But the window that he gave us into these organizations, right, tell me why we have no rules on the books for white supremacist terrorist organizations. Tell me why that we know who they are, we know what

their intent is. Give me something other than what it is that I believe, which is that we never hold white supremacy accountable in this country. We didn't designate the KKK as a terrorist group, and they were blowing up churches, murdering people, and burning crosses on lawns. So I mean, what would it take Glenn right to label these groups

as terrorist organizations? So I maybe am not in the mainstream when it comes to people who talk about how we have to have more federal statutes on the books prohibiting fill in the blank terrorist organizations white supremacy organizations. Because we have my big blue, ugly book of crimes is right across my office there, the United States Code, and there are more federal laws in there than you

could ever read in one lifetime. Only a fraction of them actually ever get charged, and we never repeal any We just keep putting more and more and more in there. We can enact another batch of one hundred laws outlawing white supremacist groups, misogynistic groups, xenophobic groups, Holocaust deniers, you know, and if the laws don't get rigorously enforced, what good would they do if there was another law on the book prohibiting white supremacy. Do you really think that would

make a dent into white supremacist organizations. I don't think so. And here's the other thing. You can be part of a hate group. What you can't do is act out violently or deprive of others of their rights based on your hateful ideology. Unfortunately, the First Amendment protects the right to assemble, and you can join any little hate group you want. Go sit and have your beers and you know, hate on people in your in your little private meetings.

That is protected speech and protected assembly. But what you can't do is act out violently or deprive others of their rights. And so we have so many laws on the books already, Danielle that if aggressively enforced, would take all these idiots out. Legal would take them out using the criminal justice system. Problem is, we don't enforce them. And I don't want people to think putting more laws

on the books is what we know. It's enforcing the dang laws that are already there that are designed to take out, you know, people who are involved in violent conduct or depriving others of their rights. More laws don't fix that problem in my opinion. No, I mean that's that's right. Okay. So finally, then Steven Airs, Yeah, Steven Airs was the picture of the foot shoulder. Yeah, I had every intent to go support my president. I'm a family man. I just went up there because he told

me to, and I was, you know, caught up. I've lost my home and my job, and now I've done my own research and I don't necessarily believe you know what happened. And I'm sorry about what happened. What how did Steven Airs testimony land for you? So this was so important, this testimony, But I don't know that everybody has the takeaway that I wish they would have. Steven Airs. Now, first of all, Steven Airs was going to portray Steven Airs in the best life as right. I'm a family man.

I'm a cabinet maker for twenty years. I mean, who can dislike a cabinet maker. I go camping, I play ball with my son, all of which may very well be true. He also committed crimes by marching on the Capitol to try to stop the certification and the transfer of presidential power. And there is a deep, deep injustice that was exposed through the testimony of Stephen Airs. And I will not say we need to cry for Stephen Airs, but there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Stephen Airs,

some more violent than him. He allegedly didn't perpetrate any violence. He did commit crimes, though, and they are being convicted, They are being imprisoned, they are being punished, They are suffering the consequences of a felony conviction on their record and all that comes with it. Appropriately so for the decisions that they made. Hundreds of these people, Danielle are

being held accountable. But the person who orchestrated it, who set the date of the attack, who ordered the armed attack, is walking around golfing, contemplating a run for president, going to hate rallies, continuing to push the big lie, and encouraging people to continue to act in their daily lives based on the big lie that is as deep and unfair and injustice as is presently going on in our

Department of Justice. That the steven Heirs of the world are being convicted, imprisoned, and held accountable, and the leader, the hitman who sent them there, as Harry Dunn said one year ago, now is footloose and fancy free and contemplating a run for the presidency so we can do it all over again. This makes my mind explode. There's no justice if there's not equal justice, and there has been no equal justice on any number of fronts, the

racial front most directly forever in this country. This is another kind of deep injustice going on when the insurrectionists are being held accountable, but the person who ordered to hit is not. I can't abide this, and this is why last night on Laurence O'Donnell i started with, you know, we are a nation, a drift in a sea of unaddressed lawlessness, and that ship's not to change right now. Yeah, I mean, that's it that, I mean, that is it

a drift in a sea of lawlessness. And you know, those of us looking around for the Department of Justice to pull us in, to drop anchor to make it seem as if, you know, give us, give us a lifeline, give us something, you know, so that we can feel a bit of hope, right that something that the justice and the law, rule of law can be restored, because to your point, if it is not, if there is no conviction, if there is no accountability, responsibility at the

highest echelons, then all the Department of Justice has done is give a good housekeeping stamp to the next iteration of Donald Trump to be more forceful and worse, and guess what, there'll be no precedent to say you can't do that, that is illegal, that's not the conduct of the executive branch. It'll be like you said nothing last time.

So I'm going to keep pushing the limits. Hello, everybody will go back and listen to Harry Dunne Us police officer Harry Dunn's testimony from almost one year ago to the day at the first j six public hearing, where he said he talked about how they beat it. They beat him, they degraded him, they were hurling racial epithets at him all the while He's trying to protect the lives of the people in the capitol. And he said

a hit man sent them there to do that. And there will be no justice, no peace for Harry until he is held accountable. And he has not been held accountable. And you know, I hope everybody goes back and listens to that, because that's what this is all about. It's not about the Stephen Airs. It's about the Donald Trumps and the Eastman's and the Bannons and the Giulianis and the Flynns and the Powells, Howels and the Clarks and the rest of them. That's what this is all about.

And not one second of accountability has visited any of those people, and that is intolerable until every single person that was in that room on Thisber eighteenth that was concocting the plan from Mark Meadows looking for the constitutional loopholes to everyone else saying martial law sees the machines put out the military until every single one of those

people are indicted. Our country, our justice, our democracy is a drift, and at some point the Department of Justice becomes an accomplice to what happened on January sixth, barring any action from them. As always, Glenn, thank you so much for spending time with us to walk us through where we are. We have. I don't know if it's going to be the last hearing, but we have another one coming before Congress takes recess in August, so I look forward to your recap of that as well. Appreciate you.

I'll see you next week. Danielle. Thanks, Hey, I'm David. Plots of Slaves Political Gaffest. As another election season accelerates, it can be tricky to sort through all the noise and the news. Each week on the gap Fest, John Dickerson, Emily Bathlona and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, and tell you what issues really matter. We do not always agree. We definitely do not always agree, but we always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time.

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Get The Bituation Room on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and streaming on YouTube and Twitch. That is it for me today, dear friend. On Woke app as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power, Get woke and stay woke as fuck. Get a behind the scenes look at Comedy Central's The Daily Show on Beyond the Scenes, an original podcast from the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Every week, host Roy Wood Junior goes deeper with the

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