Oh you've done this before. Yeah, all good, okay, thanks you. September twenty twenty one, you break the story police close in on a new suspect, William Copp's confident they have cracked the case. How did that come about?
So I bump into somebody and I've got to be very careful, obviously is the source.
Mark Murray, or Moz to his friends, is the crime editor at Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper. Moz is old school. You'll often find him on the phone or in the pub, usually halfway through telling a long story about Sydney's underworld. And he's been working the crime beat in this city for as long as I have been alive, and for my money, Moz is the best crime reporter in New South Wales.
I'll literally bump into somebody who is not a detective, was not even based at Paramount of Police headquarters where all the detectives are. I just want to establish that this person somehow knew quite a lot about the new way the investigation was going in the police. Person in the police yes, okay, but not a detective. But anyway, somebody in the police force who said, look, this is
what's happening now. I believe that William went over the balcony, that the foster mother was involved, and quite a few details full disclosure.
I like mos He and I go back where colleagues and have been rivals, each trying to break bigger stories for our different newspapers. And in the past couple of years, I've overseen another podcast where Moz is one of the hosts.
And I'm paranoid. Like everybody, I didn't want to talk on the phone this person. I didn't ring police because I didn't want anyone having their phone records matched up to when this story potentially comes out. So I was in here and I I ran to Ben, you know, the editor English. Yeah, And I told him this whole story is mind blowing. This is probably the biggest mystery in Australia currently, the biggest crime story mystery. And here
we have this massive new information on it. And I said, I've got to confirm it, but I've got to be careful how I go about it. And he said, okay. And I'm still thinking, who the fuck do I ring here?
Right?
One? I don't want somebody shutting me down or but I want to make sure I don't stuff up an investigation like that is every crime report is primary. You don't want to stuff up an investigation because one, you don't want to see somebody get away with something. And to no one's going to talk to you again.
And this scoop Mores is describing being it was always going to get attention. It's the moment the police went public saying they were looking at William Toole's foster mother as a suspect. Only the way that happened, at least as Mos tells it, this scoop was a stuff up, just not his.
So I was in the office Ben and I and he said, oh, maybe i'd make a call or two. I go, yeah, right, And he comes out like an hour two hours later, he said, I've run that past and I don't know who. And he said, we're find a runner. I said, you're sure it's not going to stuff anybody up. He said, it's it's one hundred percent.
You're okay.
And I then made no more calls because I thought it was one hundred percent. It was sweet. So I wrote the story. Said to Benn, are we going to run in a day or two? He said, oh, you know what, let's just run up tomorrow and go okay. I said, are you sure it's okay? He said, yeah, sure, it's sweet. I'm thinking, well, I'm not going to ring anyone because I know he says it's fine. So I thought all the major players had been notified, right, investigators, everybody.
But everybody hadn't been notified that MOS's story was coming. And that matters because we're talking about a live police investigation into a missing child, meaning detectives are still working the case. They're talking to witnesses, they're choosing what to tell people and what not to tell them, and they have covert surveillance running.
And in the end, we put it up at about eight o'clock and so you published it and my phone went nuts. And it's a turtle miscommunication somewhere along the hierarchy chain.
So they didn't know the story was coming.
They didn't know the story.
So the cops in homicide, particularly running the investigation, the investigation didn't know.
Didn't know. So that would be Dave ladlaw right, who's now still in charge. He had no idea. Now I've had known him again for years. It just meant that everyone in homicide believed I'd broken the golden rule. You know, potentially an investigation, that's the golden rule, and that is the golden ruar.
So in this case, the cop running the investigation into William's disappearance didn't know that you were going to run this. His boss who's the head of homicide didn't know you were going to run this. My understanding is the assistant commissioner didn't know, and the relevant deputy commissioner didn't know either.
Yes, subsequently I found that out. Yeah, but sickening feeling. It's really because this one that's my lifeblood, is your reputation and your contacts, and there was anger, There was serious anger.
So the question is who should be the target of that anger. Who's blame for this stuff up that might have damaged the William Tyrrell investigation?
Even to this day, people would like to know the initial source.
But it's not just the initial source, is it. Because the initial source with what you do, maybe has a casual conversation with you, and that is your job, and that's that happens. But there's also the secondary source who confirms it to your editor. So there's two sources of this league, which the.
More importantly saying it is Okay.
The thing about the story was it was pretty strong. It wasn't you know. It starts off police zero in on a new person of interest, fair enough, who they believe is responsible for the death and disappearance of William Tyrell. Police are now confident they will solve the mystery of the disappearance. A new investigation has uncovered clues previously not explored. And although at the start you're talking about a person of interest, by midpoint through the article you're calling that
person a suspect. You're not naming them, but you're saying the cops suspect this person is respective.
Wish we'd actually said that it's on the foster appearance now, I think we probably could have gone with it.
It was pretty obvious who you were talking about. I mean, everybody knew. Everybody did know, because as soon as Mozzy's article is published, other reporters are calling the police force, who do confirm their new suspect is William's foster mother.
Good afternoon, There have been major developments in the William Terrell investigation today, and as we go to wear this afternoon, this is what we know. The toddler's foster mother is now the key person of interest in his disappearance.
The key person of interest, despite as we now know from the inquest, the police having no forensic or witness evidence to support that. And all of this attention also explode what had actually been a careful, gradual strategy to apply pressure to William's foster mother through other leaks to the media and select interviews with chosen reporters.
So if anyone out there is thinking I might have gotten away with this, what's your message?
They haven't like this Sky News interview with David Laidlaw, the new lead detective.
You know what happened, don't you? You know who it is. We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes, and who was responsible?
Yes. The police strategy was to slowly ratchet up the pressure while all the time the foster parents' house and car and telephones are being recorded with covert surveillance. It's exactly the same kind of tactics that led to the downfall of the previous lead detective, Gary Jubilin. But Moz's front page story blows up without warning, right in the middle of this careful strategy.
I was told, in no uncertain terms, an explosion has gone on. There is which hunts, there is anger, and I can understand because this is a huge case. They're trying to solve the case of a missing boy at a little child, and no matter what we say, and how no matter what they say, and that every case is equal, every murder is equal, every it isn't emotion gets you know, there's a little child, you know, And so to have their strategy stuffed up innocently bye whoever, I don't know.
I take issue with that because, yeah, you may have stuffed up their strategy innocently, because you, as a journalist, to writing what you've been told and what you've been told by someone in the police is good to go. Yeah, But that person who your editor, Ben English spoke to.
He's SARTI spoken in more than one and I might have been, and I've got to be you know, he has he has sources that still amaze me.
Right, But that person who to have known that must almost certainly have been in the police themselves and confirmed it to Ben and said, yeah, you can go with that. That person is not acting innocently.
No, And I want yeah, I can't answer that because I don't know the person.
I spoke to Mozzy's editor, Ben English, and he's not going to reveal his source, and I wouldn't expect him to. But it's not really about Ben. It's about those people caught up in the fallout.
And I've currently found out it didn't stuff up any investigation. In fact, there was a media strategy almost in place to use the telegraph exactly the way we did it, except for it didn't match their timetable.
There is one other aspect to this in terms of the fall out is that William's biological foster parents weren't told this story was coming before it came, and there's an element of emotional damage done by.
That, yeah, which again I didn't know. Well, I'd imagine the foster parents who were target of the investigation. I thought, when you're given the good to go, I would have thought that there was something in place, and I think that there still would have been saw something in their house no matter what there were you. Yeah, so that wouldn't have bagged that part up. The emotional to the
biological painchere. I can see where you're coming from, and that's something I think we hadn't probably explored enough.
But I don't think it's on you. Moss says it's taken him years to repair his reputation and his relationship with some of the detectives in the homicide squad. So he's another person who suffered at least a little in the fallout from the way police have handled the William
Tyran investigation. And talking to Moz, I'm starting to think how this is only the latest in a history of leaks from the police force in this case, going right back to the first raids on Bill Spedding, to Bill's arrest, the details of what he was wrongly charged with, the existence of other potential suspect that was leaked, as was Gary Jubilin being taken off the investigation. And then there's this leak about the police suddenly suspecting William's foster mother,
which will in turn be followed by another leak. Good evening.
We begin tonight with breaking news on one of Australia's most baffling cases.
This time revealing that police have sent a brief of evidence to the States Director of Public Prosecutions.
Nine News can reveal detectives now believe there's enough evidence to charge the toddler's foster mother over his disappearance.
This news breaking in June last year, a day after what would have been William's twelfth birthday.
Talking about leaks, that's the one that's caused more consternation than anyone. That they had handed a brief to the DPP. Now that was even a bigger leak because I think only seven people knew, and I know there was an internal investigation over there. So I think the reporter involved in that, she's been sent to Coventry. I know it actually feels because they're furious about that.
And if the police are furious, it's because these leaks keep threatening to damage the investigation into who took three year old William Tyrell, who kind of gets forgotten in the storm of headlines and the internal politics in which this whole case has played out over the past decade.
I think Tyrrell has no boundaries. It's a national It's like one of those stories that captures the whole nation. It just doesn't. It's not just a Sydney or Telegraph story, don't you think. And certain reporters have become obsessed, haven't they.
I'm not innocent within this. I'm a reporter. I like leaks, like being leaked to, But standing back, I can see how innocent lives get caught up in the explosion when these bombs go off on the front pages, or because someone couldn't keep their mouth shut on a phone call with a reporter or an editor. And I can see how these leaks also feed the damage and suspicion surrounding this investigation, as have other leaks which are more illicit and more damaging and where the police are not the
only guilty party. From news dot com dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrol episode ten. The suspect.
Had a higher Yeah great, oh thanks you interested?
Yeah.
This is a woman called Alana Smith speaking to another colleague of mine, the journalist Caroline Overington, in twenty twenty one, the same year MOS broke that story about police now looking at William's foster mother.
All right, let's go it comes true.
Alana has some skin in the game here. She once went to court arguing for the right to publicly identify William Tyrol as a foster child when the government was refusing to let that happen, which is partly why Caroline wanted to talk to her.
It's just audio, it's a podcast, is just boys, boys.
That's not what interested me though, listening to this recording, I'm interested in one particular moment.
We don't need to clear everything off, but do you want to just move that computer?
Which happens while they're still setting up the interview, and we might need this cheering.
Here's some stuff on news from the proof perfect, thank you.
But Alana says there's some stuff on here from the brief and hands it over. The brief is the brief of evidence, meaning all of the evidence the police have gathered in this case for the inquest into William's disappearance, and which somehow leaked, got into the papers and ended
up circling around the internet. And that matters because this is evidence from a police investigation which today is still ongoing, and these leaked documents include police statements and transcripts of interviews with witnesses, including William's foster parents, and their phone records and photographs marked protected and confidential, all of which, if it becomes public, can only undermine the police and the inquest and their chances of bringing to justice whoever
it was who took William. And Alana must know she's not supposed to just hand this stuff over listen again.
There's some stuff on these from the proof perfect.
Thank you, but.
There, she says, but you don't know I have that. Alana has her own take on William's disappearance. She's gone online herself a lot, calling William's foster parents quote dirty fucking parasites, and calling Gary Jubilin a corrupt, fucking motherfucker and worse. I shouldn't need to say this, but there's no evidence to back up her insults, and I'm only mentioning them to demonstrate just how dirty and polluted everything surrounding this case has got. So I called Alana, but
she didn't answer. Then she called me back, Hallo, Hello Dan, Hi Alana, how are you doing? Yes?
Good, thank you. I just want to let you know that I'm recording the conversation.
That's fine, you are happy if I record it as well. Of course, Alana has written things about me online also. Since starting this series, we've exchanged messages on Facebook in which she's called me assy but definitely not classy. She's called me a weak ass journo and that it's about time I was brought into line.
This will be a one way conversation, but I'm all used, Dan.
When you say one way conversation, how do you.
Mean, Well, it'll be you talking because I truly have nothing, honestly nothing to say to you. I've articulated my thoughts and my feelings about what you and your current colleagues are doing and how you are stewing, and I don't give a fuck.
In Alana says, I'm skewing the facts.
The facts between within that brief of evidence.
Because there is nothing that I have further need to say to you.
There isn't already abundantly clear within the documents.
Sure you're getting cliques, Sure you're getting paid, Sure you're hanging.
Out with the fucking bee boys, but your morals and.
Your ethics are in the fucking gutta and shame on you, Dan Box.
Basically, Alana doesn't like the way we've made this podcast.
What is it that you fucking want from me? Apart from the truth.
And I'm giving it to you.
I'd have you and Gary Jubilin in a quarter of law in a fucking heartbeat.
She says, we're pursuing a narrative one that she does not agree with.
Shame on you because you use every god.
Damn day and get out of bed and put your fucking fancy pants on and continue to go down this contractual sheep fuckery. And there's only one person to blame apart from yourself. You you, you, yourself.
And yourself.
Can have nothing to say.
And the people that I'm going to say it to.
I said it online.
Actually I said shit about you on an open from I went and said that.
Listen.
I hope we're recorded.
I truly hope we're recorded.
Oh yeah, we are. Yeah you said you said you're recording, and I am as well.
And I'll be a push for.
A fucking gondab inquiry one way or another, come hell or high water.
Can I ask you a couple of things nation trial alone? Can I ask you something?
Well, whether you can ask or I'll allow you to ask me, whether I.
Yeah you one hundred percent, You don't have to answer. I just need to ask. There's a couple of things I'm interested in. You talked about putting things, putting things online. You've you've obviously said a lot about William's foster parents. You've said their murderers, you've said their pedophiles, and so on.
Yeh, sure we got taken a call over and got fucking.
Tried about it.
You know, I'll bean yeah, and we'll go.
Again, because fucking we'll go again.
If that's getting into court, pushing the boundaries is the only fucking what.
You don't have any evidence of that.
How you got the fucking files? How I got the fucking files.
That's actually my second question. That's the second thing I'm interested in. You have shared documents from the brief of evidence with journalists.
So what you're talking about.
I've got you on tape doing it, Alana, sure.
Sure, And if I have, then if I have, then it's been in private.
And that's what journalists do.
But why have you shared documents from the kid? But why did you share documents from the brief of evidence in a live homicide and investigation?
The same reason I started a petition, the same reason I told a Supreme Court judge to go fuck himself, The same reason I continue to argue the point to you in every other journo, the same reason why I continue to tell you that you're a lie life scumbag on a moral principle, because there's a fucking child missing in state care.
So you shared those you shared those police documents because.
I don't give a shit.
You want to get litigious.
I'm not I'm definitely not threatening. I'm just trying to understand.
Quite okay for you to do that.
I definitely I'm not threatening. I've got no interest in legal action. But I am trying to understand why you would share documents, Why you'd share police documents from a live homicide investigation and other reporters.
Why do you receive other people's brief of evidence documents in your own in blok?
Then before you ask the questions of me, how about.
You make sure that your own fucking bed, you're an in box, your own nurse is clean.
Sent me documents, But there's a difference between receiving them and sharing them. And I'm just curious as to you.
And will argue that point out like I did in a criminal trial or any other trial.
There's no criminal trial because I don't even know if there's a criminal offense, but I am interested in why you didn't.
I'm baiting.
It's baiting. This has gone along enough.
This is stupid, absolutely stupid, one way or another, regardless what I said, regardless of who is guilty, what you're doing, and the narrative in.
Which you're running is filthy.
That's it.
You want to get higher.
You want to understand why I've done certain things.
I've just given you.
I've just list.
You asked me a question, and I've given you.
An honest, tenant, ten point answer as to why I do the things that.
I do it because you think it's in them Do you think it's in the public interest?
Not for a dirty pay packet, Not for a dirty old.
Fucking paypacket there not to sell my soul, not to.
Get a fucking leg up in the media, fucking not to not to get on jump onto the biggest fucking case there is, to making the air for yourself in your new job. I do everything that I do authentically from my fucking heart because of those children.
Have you thought about the possible damage you might do to the investigation by sharing those documents?
The investigation knows who I am, they know where I lived.
There's been nothing come at me.
What were the facts?
What were the context?
What was what?
Letst put it in context?
So is that why you shared them alone? So what is that why you shared them so people will understand the fact.
Probably not even about that, It's about the child.
By child Alana means, I think it's about William.
How many times have I said it's about the child and.
About child, about child, about child, about child, about child, about child.
Why do you care so much about William?
Because I do because of what's happening to him, the way in which it's happened, the ass covering that the government do, the gas lighting that they do, the way that the media in which cover it or don't cover it, the way in which the government and the Parliament use and abuse legislation to protect their own fucking goddamn mars.
There's a whole myriad of reasons why I want to be invested or why I am, apart from the fact that I too was a little William at one stage and fucking forcibly removed from my mother.
Like William, Alana was taken from her birth family and put into foster care. Her experience of that was awful, and I don't pretend to understand what she's been through. But she and I are going to have to agree to disagree on other things.
I do later at nights sometimes and I think to myself, Dan is an unredeemable, fucking low life prick. But I still don't understand why he's chosen the road that he has.
So are you asking me why we're doing what we're doing.
Why are you doing what you're doing with the narrative in which you're doing it, Dan.
Look, the only narrative we're trying to tell is to look at the investigation from the beginning and what was done right and what was done wrong. That's been our starting point.
There needs to be an inquiry. What do you think about an inquiry?
Do on record?
I'd love to see a public inquiry into this one because it's not really my job. My job is to report the facts and not to call for things.
Why aren't you pushing an advocating for one?
Because I'm not an advocate. I'm a journalist and my job is to port the facts as best we can. It's not my job to You haven't been doing that, you know, I promise you. We've been trying to listening back. I think that's a weak answer, So Alana, if you're listening, I would love to see a public inquiry into the
William Tyran investigation. And ten years on with no answers about what happened to him, I think there should be an inquiry, and I know from speaking to them for this podcast that Bill Spedding and Gary Jubilin they both think the same. There's one last thing I asked, Alana, where did you get the brief of evidence? From? Alane?
Listen, I've been a part.
I've been an advocate for the Biological Family for the alas.
I was told you. I was told you got them from the biological family.
Listen, I've done at all. Where did I get the brief of evidence? Where do I get any court documents? Where do I get any family information?
So you got it from the biological family? Are you?
How dare you?
Because I worked as an advocate for that fucking family and I continue to do that.
Look, it's no criticism, it's I'm curious. So you got it from the Biological Family.
I'm saying I did.
I'm not saying I'm told I was told you did.
Sup questions because you saynd stupid.
Is there anything else you wanted to say to me?
What you fucking apart from all the fucks in and that you shoot fuckery and that that you're morally along with what you're doing now?
No, I I got all of that. Yeah, I got it But there is a problem here because I spoke to Natalie Collins, William's biological grandmother, who denies giving Alana the brief of evidence and says Alana is no longer acting as an advocate for her family, and said some other things about Alana and about William's foster parents, which I'm not going to repeat here because they're offensive and there's no evidence to support them, just like the things
Alana's been saying online about William's foster parents. Their insults and they're not true. But now there are all these different voices, William's birth and foster families, the police, people who say they are advocates for something, those posting lies and abuse online, and reporters and editors who are all talking and sharing confidential information, getting louder and nastier in
what they're saying to each other and online. Even before that front page story about William's foster mother, she and her husband had become targets.
Cold, cold people. They are, how do they sleep at night? William has been murdered, cocaine addict.
I'm interested in seeing him and handcuffs.
William Tyrrell was tortured, raped and murdered.
Motley crew of pitophile mates, pitophile rapist.
Doc William has been murdered by his narcissistic psychopath foster mother and the corps, then dismembered and courted for disposal by the besotted foster famer.
These are lies, they're false, but they still added to the pressure on the couple, who, throughout the time they were under police investigation, were also managing the fallout of William's disappearance on another child who was living with them and who we can't identify for legal reasons. William's foster parents were also providing emergency and respite care for other children at the request of the state government's Department of
Community and Justice. A court will later hear from one of the department staff saying William's foster parents were often called upon to help out when the department was in a jam, and the corporate view of the department was that they were very responsible and trustworthy parents. But these kids aren't always easy to look after, taken from their birth families by the state, often dealing with their own trauma, so that's pressure. At around the same time, the COVID
pandemic shut Australia's borders and sent Sydney into lockdown. So that's pressure. Then in December twenty twenty, Williams foster nana died. William's foster parents suspected a cop who turned up at the funeral was wearing a wire, and they're not wrong
about being under surveillance. The police put five listening devices and two cameras in place in the foster parents' home, plus intercepts on their mobile phones, and these run for nearly a full year, meaning in total something over sixty thousand hours of surveillance, from which the cops gather over
one thousand hours of recordings. Among them, the police record William's foster parents arranging for someone to place dummy bids when they sell their homer auction, which frankly is stupid and greedy and illegal, but it happens, and the cops will charge them with dishonestly obtain financial advantage or cause disadvantage by deception, which carries a maximum ten year prison sentence.
So that's pressure. Only the cops later withdraw this and the couple plead guilty to a lesser charge and a fined three thousand dollars.
It must feel like the police are hounding you.
You're not going to make any comments. Thank you. Did you have anything to do with William's disappearance. I'm not going to make any comments, thank you.
Listening to vices also record arguments between William's foster parents and the child, a teenager. I can't play those recordings for legal reasons because the police charged William's foster parents over these recordings.
Also, are you disgusted at hearing how you spoke to that little girl?
Do you see how bad a look this is given your a person of interest in William's disappearance. I've sat in court listening to these recordings more than once, and their unpleasant listening. In the worst, you hear disembodied voices. It takes a while to work out it's a child. The child shouts no, go away, go away. There is a long, indistinct drawn out crying. William's foster mother says, get up, stand up, stand up. Then she asks the child where did you put the wooden spoon. The child
says it's behind there. No, please, no, The foster mother says, move your hand. There's the sound of an impact. She says, sit. You can hear the child crying. It sounds bad, and it is bad. In court on either side, I can sense the other journalists feel revolted, and I do too. But it also sounds like a family that's not working, where people are breaking under pressure. Also listening in the courtroom is the former lead detective Gary Jublin. And during a break here and I go outside and we talk
about what we just heard. What did you make of that?
The two recordings that were applied.
I did know this.
You listen to that recording that's confronting, there's a child screaming, But it was a child screaming. It wasn't There was no it wasn't someone that had lost their temper. It wasn't the adult screaming irrationally. It was a child screaming.
Now, yeah, but a child could be screaming because you're really hurting that child.
That didn't sound like that.
I we listened to that twice. The first time I listened to that, and I thought, that sounds really bad. That sounds like a child in absolute distress.
I thought it was very interesting, and we only bearing your mind. We heard a very small snippet, which is obviously what the prosecution want as the worst snippet.
I'm going to call the police.
That was a child that was contained, not a child that was in pain or injured. Then it just escalated, but the child escalated it.
We might have to agree to disagree on that. Yeah, I heard a parent going off with their child and a child at a distress, screaming and screaming. But if you recorded, I don't actually for very comfortable sites. But if you recorded some of the of the worst conversations I've had with my kids, they might not have sounded much.
I would say the same thing then, And I raised my children in a house and no violence or threats or whatsoever.
The police charge William's foster mother with assault, and she pleads guilty. She also pleads guilty to a second assault charge over a kick on the same child, which happens during another argument where the child was going to kick another much younger child who the family were looking after. The foster mother kicks the older child to stop her, then says, now you know how it feels. Do you
think you want to make that decision again? The older child cries, and later on a telephone intercept, the foster mother tells a friend, I'm ashamed. I can't believe it happened, but I lost it. In another phone call the same day, she says, I'm not used to being like this. I'm not coping. The problem is we've got this investigation hanging over our heads. The police believe we did something to William. How do I live with that? How do I live
being looked at? When the foster of the checks the elder child later, the kick doesn't leave a mark, But all the time the cops are listening. One court will later hear the detectives knew about this first assault with the spoon as early as the next day because they're listening. But they don't remove the child. In fact, they leave that child living with William's foster parents for almost a full year after And you have to ask, if the police really believe the child is in danger, why wait
so long? And there are other recordings for which the detectives investigating William's disappearance will charge the foster parents with intimidation, but where the magistrate hearing the case will say she's listened to the entire recordings and will say those parts that were played in court have not been put into their proper context by the prosecution, and that the transcript of the recordings provided by the prosecution doesn't always match
the words that she heard on the recordings, and she'll say it can hardly be said the alleged intimidation was continuous, and that, having listened repeatedly to the whole of the recordings, she views the child's call for help as calls for help with cleaning her room, a frustrated young girl at the end of her tether. And the magistrate will say the recordings aren't nice, but they don't go far enough
to demonstrate criminal intent to intimidate. And it's also true that in court we hear only minutes or at most, I think a couple of hours of the thousand or more hours the police recorded. But outside one of the court hearings, the police prosecutor will come out and he'll walk over and start talking to the reporters who are sitting about to file their stories, and the reporters will say the tapes sound awful, and the prosecutor will say, how he has kids, and the first time he listened
to them, he was chain smoking and drinking wine. And he'll say, there's a damn sight more that I can't share with you, and he'll say it would have been easier for him to close the court so the hearing took place in private, but that it's in the interests of justice for people to hear this, And every day the detectives investigating William's disappearance will be in the court room, despite the fact that these offenses have nothing to do with what happened to William and took place years after
he disappeared. And at one point the police prosecutor will say in court that this case isn't about William Tyrrell. But if it's not, and it's only about a kick on a different child, then why is the strike Force here? And later that same police prosecutor will turn up at the inquest hearing into William's disappearance, sitting with the detectives and talking to the police lawyers because really, these other charges have everything to do with the investigation into William's disappearance.
One of the strike Force detectives, Andrew Lonegan, will later say this in court, saying he thinks they quote go to the character of propensity of violence to children. But most of the charges the police bring against William's parents end with not guilty verdicts. And the couple are now appealing others.
A major blow for police, a major victory for their latest target, William Tyrrell's foster mother leaving court and overwhelmed after the magistrate let her.
Off not guilty. Isn't really a major victory?
How has the pressure been these past few years?
The pressure continues. The detectives visit the foster mother's family and friends, asking questions had they ever seen her angry as a parent? Ever seen her lose control? The police investigation morphs into a joint investigation with something called the New South Wales Crime Commission, which was set up to prevent, disrupt and reduce the incidents of organized and other serious crime.
The Crime Commission works in secret. You actually can't tell anybody you've been called there to give evidence, and it has unrival powers. It can force people to give evidence, make them answer questions. In October twenty twenty one, two of the detectives visit William's foster mother at home to give her an order that she's to face questions at
the Crime Commission. A court will later hear how one of those two men, who's a short, red faced detective called Andrew lonegan tells William's foster mother it's not personal and we're not here to fucking bluff. The other detective, who is a big, swaggering man called Scott Jamison, tells her, you'll have to live with it. We aren't guessing. We know why, we know how, we know where he is. William's foster mother says, I'm actually trying. I'm trying to breathe.
You're actually now saying I tried to hurt William. Andrew Lonegan says, we're not saying you hurt him. Scott Jamieson says again, we're saying we know why it happened, we know how it happened, and we know where he is. But we know from the inquest that the police don't know those things. They have no forensic or witness evidence of what happened to William. Andrew Lonegan will later say in court that he was telling the truth during this exchange.
Inside the crime Commission, William's foster mother is questioned over two days. She's asked over and over and over did she have anything to do with William's disappearance, and over and over she says no, while William's foster mother is giving this evidence. The child, who's been living with her and her husband, is at school. A detective from the Strikeforce arrives without warning. The child doesn't know why the detective is there. She thinks maybe it's to do with William.
The detective takes the child from class for an interview, asking her seven hundred and fifty one questions, which a magistrate will later describe as being of a patently leading nature, such as, has William's foster father ever hurt you? Has anyone ever put you in time out? Has he ever grabbed your neck when you tried to get out of time out? When was that? She says, she doesn't know that child will never go home to William's foster parents.
The next day, she'll call a family friend and leave this message, which we've asked someone else to read out, And.
That's alle else's house, a foster home, and I want to go to your house.
And of this one.
I've seen emails from detectives on the Strikeforce to state government officials saying they don't want this child to have any contact with William's foster family or friends. The police also take out an apprehended violence order preventing contact even phone calls. It's not certain if their Christmas presents are passed on to her. And it's been years now, during which time this child must have gone online and seen what people have written about William's foster parents. I've got
a daughter around the same age. I look at her and I can't imagine what being treated like this would
do to her. So when I look at all the people who've been caught up in the investigation into William's disappearance, this child is the first person I think of, and I find myself actually hoping the police are right about what happened to William, because at least then what's happened to this child is justified, because if the police are not right, then the damage done to this child is just too great.
We were just a regular family.
This is that child's cousin. Her aunt is William's foster mother. Tell me about William. When did you first meet him?
I think it was not long after he came into their care. He was only a baby. I mostly remember him as more of a toddler. He was full of energy. My nan I would always say he was full of beans, that was her saying, And he was just happy and giggly. He would run around the house when we were there for occasions, being just super excited to see people and the buzz that was happening because it was a Christmas
or a birthday. I looked after him. One time I baby sat for a few hours in an evening and he would want to play monkey in the bed when.
I put him to bed.
There was a girl as well, who we can't name. How do you remember her from that time?
She would double on him when he wanted to play monkey in the bed.
And.
She was just saying she loved, just loved, loved, loved when we came over, loved to see family, wanted to play.
She was still pretty young then as well.
Would you say they were a happy family.
Yes?
Absolutely, This was before William went missing and the police investigation. Obviously we both know what happened to Well, no, neither, we don't know what happened to William. William went missing. You remember that.
I found out via Facebook. I was studying and what I was meant to be studying, and I was on Facebook and I saw the picture that came up from I think New South Wales Police that there was a missing boy. And I remember thinking no, it can't be. But I don't think I understood the gravity at that moment of what was happening. That took days, I think, to realize. And I went up there shortly.
After how long after?
I think it took me a couple of days to get.
Up there, And then I saw my uncle and my aunt and it became apparent that this was h a real situation and it wasn't good.
And in the years since then, you stayed close to your cousin.
Yes, how was she going?
This is probably really bad? But I always tried to like not focus on William. I don't know, It's trauma is a difficult thing for a kid to process. So my relationship was always to just treat her as I had always done, and try.
And not.
Highlight the trauma that had happened in her life, and to give her the most normal relationship with people. So we didn't really talk about it. I just tried to carry on and give her, you know, just that normalacy.
Can I maybe skip forward in time, because obviously you would have sent the newspapers the same way everyone saw the newspapers about the police having a new suspect.
Yeah, But then I was contacted by the police, and can you tell me what happened. I received an email from my dad telling me to contact these detectives because they wanted to speak to me. I had a formal, an informal telephone conversation with two detectives and seemed very casual, very kind of almost lighthearted to start with. They asked me what I thought had happened, and they asked me
what my Nana thought had happened. And you know, Nana has always been the same, like she'd only ever really thought whoever they had just you know, recently highlighted as a suspect might be the person. And then they just went to, well, what do you think do you think he was just plucked out of thin air? And I think they suggested that aliens had beamed him up, and
I said, well, obviously not. And then they were asking me about my aunt and uncle specifically and how they were with William and my cousin, and they tried to lead, well did they try to leave me? They tried to suggest that children can misbehave and how my aunt and uncle managed that, and I started to realize that they were actually looking at them, and I asked them that and they said, yes, how.
Did you feel about that?
Shook It really just shook me. I couldn't believe it, and I was shaking, and I got off the phone and I think I screamed into the air because it's just it was so frustrating the way that they had constructed this conversation without I suppose being I mean, they're the police, They're not going to be very transparent in situations like that. But I feel like they'd led me down a path. And I called my aunt immediately after,
and I said, they're looking at you and Nana. Actually at that point they were suggesting that Nana had something to do with it as well, and they were asking me about her death and whether she'd said anything on her deathbed, and you know, things that just really it was an upsetting conversation.
So I think that's what they were trying to do.
I think they were trying to at all the cage.
And how did your aunt respond when you told her that?
To be honest, it seemed like it was the first time that she'd heard that, and she was so upset for a number of reasons, but for the most part, she was upset the fact that they were actually just not even looking for William. If they were looking at her, I meant they were wasting their time, that they actually didn't have any proper leads, that they actually didn't have any idea of what that had happened to William, and that I think it just all hope just felt like it had gone.
Around the time William's fostermother was facing questions at the crime Commission, the police seized a car, a gray Masda III, that used to be owned by Williemiam's foster Nana. William's foster mother had told police she drove that car to look for him on the morning when William was reported missing.
The police just seized it one day. They just turned up.
It was at my partner's parents' house, and they just turned up with a cameraman and a tow truck.
And took it.
And the cameraman who turned up with the tow truck was to film themselves seizing the car. Yes, And did you ever see the footage that they took of themselves seizing the car.
When it aired on the news.
Yes, And we told that was going to be released to the media. That footage of the car being seized was sent to journalists around the same time as police launched the latest huge forensic search of the area around where William went missing. It's carefully stage managed.
David Laidlaw Laidlaw Detective, Chief Inspector at the homicide Squad.
The police film themselves at work and send this footage to the TV stations.
We are here today at Kendall in relation to the circumstances of surrounding William missing from this residents seven years ago. The investigative team is here together with the local detectives and also with the Fornzy personnel to have another look at the scene here and also the area around Kendall.
This search for evidence in the car and outside Kendall takes place months after that front page story saying police are confident they've cracked the case, and those detectives told William's foster mother, we know why it happened, we know how it happened, and we know where he is.
They're looking for evidence.
So how long did they have the car for?
Over twelve months? They said it had to go to the panel beater and they sent me through the panel beater's report.
So they've done enough work to the car that it had to be substantially repaired afterwards.
Yeah, but it seems to me that almost every panel in the car was replaced.
I've seen the list of repairs to that MASDA. The front bumper, the headlights, new door handles, new door mirror, new rear bumper, new cabin and boot trims. The list goes on. It looks like the police took that car to pieces and found nothing, which is all the police find in their excavation of the area around Kendall where
William was reported missing. At which point you have to ask when does legitimate police investigation and putting pressure on a suspect trip over into harassment or malicious prosecution of the kind we've seen before in the William Tyrrell investigation with the very first suspect, the washing machine repairman Bill Spedding. The police would go on to charge William's foster parents with lying during their questioning by the Crime Commission, but
both foster parents would be found not guilty. That would take more rounds of court hearings and hostile headlines, and after the last of these, the foster parents will go home to a silent house that no longer has any children in it. While I catch the lift down from the courtroom to the ground floor, along with the detectives from the strikeforce. Inside, we all stand cramped together, me, the cops in their dark suits, and a few lawyers.
I will look at the lead detective, David Laidlaw and say, honestly, I wasn't expecting a not guilty result. He looks at me and is defiant, almost dismissing the court verdict. He says, common sense did not prevail. The lift doors open and we walk out in silence, looking back on everything that has happened. How do you feel now?
I still feel really frustrated and angry, angry at who, Angry at whoever took William and started this and ruined so many lives, Angry at the police in recent years, Frustrated that they haven't found anything. One of my nana's greatest regrets, in what she would say in the moments before she passed away, was that she would never know, but what it's done to my family, and it's changed. It just turned everyone's lives upside down completely and life will never be the same.
And we'll leave it there. But that isn't the end. I mentioned how the police sent a brief of evidence to the state's Director of Public Prosecutions seeking advice on whether to charge William's foster mother over disposing of his body. Well, the DPP did look at it and started asking questions. The detectives were sent back to talk to some of the witnesses again, asking things like did Williams foster mother
have access to any other cars that morning? That took days, which turned into weeks, which turned into months, then silence, and then the new South Wales Police Force asked the DPP to suspend its consideration of the brief of evidence until the end of the inquest into William's disappearance, which is still running and will now come back next week for what it says will be its final hearing and we will be there. That's in the next episode of
Witness William Tyrrell. A lot of different people have been involved in making this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor voice acting in this episode by Bethbox. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Box