Hi, This is Dan and first up, I just wanted to say thank you, seriously thank you to those people who have come forward since we released those last few episodes of this series. Just on the back of those people who've contacted us with their tips, we have broken new news stories about this case. One of those is someone who's come forward and said that a second person told them that Frank Abbot's brother, Bluie, claimed that Frank
was involved in what happened to William. I also spoke to a former prisoner who got in touch to say that he had met Frank Abbot inside prison and Frank had given him a detailed account of what happened to William, and that this former prisoner tried to tell detectives that he spoke to David Laidlaw, who's running the investigation, only to be told that they still think William's foster mother is allegedly responsible, and that the police didn't follow up
with this prisoner about what he said he'd heard. Now, of course, both William's foster mum and Frank Abbott have denied any involvement in what took place on that day, twelfth of September twenty fourteen, and I'm not saying that these new allegations are true, just saying that they have been made and they have not been followed up by
the police. We've also written another story saying the coroner who's running the inquest into William's disappearance has now said they will consider new evidence if it's provided to them by the police, and you can read all that reporting at news dot com dot au. But we also know that this story isn't over. And more importantly, we know that this story is not about us, but it's about William, and it's also now about Helen and Margaret and Sherry
Lee and those people closest to them. But some people have also got in touch with us recently asking how Nina and I are doing, especially after the last episode, where I think you can hear that all this work has had an effect on us. So what we're going to do now is we're going to play the audio of an interview that Nina and I took part in just before the release of those last four episodes in
this series. It's from another podcast called Something to Talk About, hosted by Sarah Lemarquand, and we're including it here because it lifts the curtains a bit on making this series and it does give you a sense of what it takes to do that and what it takes out of you when you end up doing an investigation like this.
Dan Box and Nina Young, Welcome to the Stellar podcast.
Thank you.
I know you're very familiar with how podcasts work, are pretty much more so than anyone else in Australia. But first time here, and of course just full disclosure to our listeners right up front. We all work together, yep.
But before anyone thinks that they're about to watch or listen or read to an editorial meeting, Okay, that might be true, but an editorial meeting with two of the top investigative journalists in the country, the brilliant duo behind Witness William Tyrrel, which launched last year last October, went straight to number one on the Australian podcast charts, millions and millions of downloads since, and is about to return with four new episodes that will reveal new information that
could take the investigation in a whole new direction. So if that's an editorial meeting, let's get on with it. Let's call Ahara and invite Australia to come and join this. William Terrell, of course, being the three year old boy who disappeared from his grandmother's garden in twenty fourteen. He's never been found. The disappearance has been one of the most talked about cases in the country. For months now. You have been working on these new episodes that will
be dropping from tomorrow. You've spoken to everyone who's been involved in the case, including William's biological family, his cares, and former homicide detective Gary Jubilan Dan. I'll start with you. You are a Walkley Award winning journalist who's broken hundreds of stories across the court of your career, both in the UK and here in Australia. Can you tell me what first drew your attention to the William Tyrell disappearance and your first involvement in investigating this case.
I was one of the few reporters who covered the immediate after Martha William's disappearance, so that's going back ten years now. I wasn't there the day after, but I think I was there within days working on the story. And I remember I've covered a lot of murders and you get kind of hardened to it. They don't bother
you anymore, but this one. I remember one occasion I was up on Bellerom Drive, which is the road that William was last seen on, and the detective who was leading the investigation at the time was talking me through their theory then that William may have run down this grass bank from the house to the road, and that maybe someone had been on that road and that person
had taken William. And I had a three year old at home, so the same age as William to within a couple of months, I think, And because of that, I could picture a three year old and how they move, you know, that slightly wonky, slightly funky way of moving. I could picture my three year old running down that slope to the person on the road, and it troubled me in a way I don't think any other case
has troubled me. And I've stayed with it in different ways and in different forms, reporting on it in the ten years since. And I think part of the reason to come back to it and look at it in the way we have done now, and Nina and I have been working on this for two and a bit years now. This is part of the reason I was grateful for the invitation to come and talk to you, because I know normally this podcast is about talking to
celebrities and about with that world of celebrity. But of all the murders that I've covered, I think maybe there are a few other murders in Australia that have that element of almost celebrity to it. Not the good things about celebrity, but the vast amount of media attention. I've literally seen paparazzi car chases pursuing witnesses. I've actually been
involved in one of them. The people trawling through the untold details of other people's lives, lives that are just kind of held up to the examination of the media gaze and kind of ripped apart all that element of celebrity. The William Tiole case has and has been kind of distorted by it, and now I don't think, like maybe with a lot of celebrities, what people think is the truth and what actually is the truth of completely different things. So that that's why we came back to it.
Nina, What about for you, because you have, over the course of your journalism career, tell our audience a little bit about that idea, and as Dan has explained, this story that has genuinely captivated an entire nation, and then from that moment bringing something like witness to fruition.
Yeah. So Dan, I think started at a company about two years ago. We met a Yeah. Yeah, the day he came in, we had a meeting and I was like, Hi, I'm Nina. I've heard you're doing a William terryl podcast and I would like to work on it because I don't do small talk. Sarah Noely, Hello, I'm going to work with you. I don't think I anticipated at that point or could have the amount of work that we were actually going to be pouring into this thing, or that would be working on it two years later, but
we did get straight to work. A lot of that work is sort of quiet background filing, the amount of filing this guy does.
We've got a timeline, so a list of events like bullet points, this happened, then that happened, then that happened, then that happened. I think it's actually about a quarter of a million words now, so it's the length of two and a bit books, and that's just our kind
of main reference document. But you know the amount of work that Nina's done, We wouldn't be here now talking about these new episodes because I thought we'd finished this series last year, and if I used to tell Nina that I was taking the whole of this year off. But at the end of the last year, Nina went off on this kind of side investigation, which I kind of just.
Kept going, like, I'll talk to you about it.
And we finished the series last year. I thought that was the end of the Nina said, right now, you have to sit down and I'll tell you what I've got. And I remember, the feeling is almost this sinking feeling of Okay, there's so much more to do.
So that whole year off, which, by the ways, first I've.
Heard about this as a manager.
But we'll talk about we'll talk about that offline that you knew then that you had to go back coming into the first series. What were the biggest questions for each of you that you initially wanted to explore. What of all of the questions that people were asking, do you think that appetite for answers was the strongest for Nina.
I think there was so much mystery surrounding this case, and despite what had been fed to the media, there weren't really any details to it. So we knew that the police were looking at Williams foster mother as a potential person of interest or a suspect, but they didn't really say why, and they didn't say why they were looking at her rather than looking at other persons of
interests that had been raised previously in the investigation. I think that's the biggest focus that people had when we first started this investigation.
Yeah, for me, it was that that kind of gulf between mean, what people thought they knew because of what had been in the media, and what actually the truth was. But there was another element to it for me, which was because I'd been reporting on this in different ways for newspapers. I did a couple of books that touched
on this. I knew a lot of the people involved in the case and the investigation, and I had a sense of how many lives had been caught up and damaged not just by William going missing, but by the
police investigation that followed. So, you know, obviously you had the families, the biological and the Foster family, but you had different witnesses who'd been held up by the police to media and court scrutiny, and their lives had just crumbled, and then the police and the media had moved on to the next person, and then each time there was this kind of human wreckage left behind, and I I wanted to put the focus back a little bit on those lives as well, the lives that have been damaged
because of this attempt to find this child, which still hasn't been successful.
Let me ask you both a little bit about that, the motivation for doing the work that you do, because it's obviously this particular case, and then of course the other stories that you've investigated over the course of your respective careers. The material is it's extremely dark, it's confronting. You are working through details that obviously there are other people in other professions that we as a society think.
I don't know how I could be exposed to all of that and then go home and live a quote unquote normal life. Is that what has motivated each of you? Nina is As Dan spoke, he had that human connection as a parent, which I think resonated with a lot of people. I know. For me, my son was the same age as William, and I remember one day there was a copy of the Daily Telegraph on the living room table and Logan was in his Spider Man suit
and he said to me, Mummy, is that me? And I'm just sorry, I just wanted to share that money down when you spoke about it. Obviously, we know as journalists we don't need those personal connections to stories, but when they do happen, you know that's also tapping into something that other people are feeling. Nina, sorry, I've aston answered that question. How obnoxious off me? I really want to hear your answer.
Yeah, obviously any parent in Australia can look at William's face and see that connection and sort of no, instinctively, how horrible that feeling would be a lot to lose your child. But I also kind of connected with the idea of there's all these potentially innocent people that have been held up a suspects, that who have had their lives ruined. I mean that could happen to literally anyone. You could just be going about your day, you could
be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I kind of went really naively into this investigation, going if the police are pursuing this woman so strongly, this.
Is William's foster mom.
Yeah, yep, of course they have something.
I thought that too when it was on the front page.
And the fact that we've come through the inquest with no eyewitness evidence, no forensic evidence, no evidence that has really been presented, I'm not happy with that. And so I do feel like I'm driven by wanting to hold people accountable for.
The damage done to those lives by the police decision to focus on those people. And it's not just the people. It goes back to children again, and so it's not just the people you see on the front pages or the TVs. It's their families and those ripples just spread out.
It's so true, isn't At every headline there's thousands of people, entire communities, entire families that are behind that, and then the story moves on, but their lives remained. And that's before we even get into the whole social media I think where everyone Obviously there's a lot of self appointed detectives out there of course with true crime as well, so people then becoming vigilantes and feeling that they can.
Keep the case just on that. And sorry to interrupt, when we started this reporting, because we were reporting that maybe the police hadn't got it right, or we at least investigate in the possibility the police might not have
it right about William's foster mum. I knew there were whole communities out there online who very much thought the police were in the right, and I knew they weren't going to like this, and so talk to Nina about it, about the possibility for online abuse, social media abuse, and it came in, and it came in much quicker than I expect.
Yeah, he had the chat with me one day and just said, look, I'm only going to bring it. Don't look at this stuff, and I'm not going to look at the stuff, but I've told someone to flag if your name comes into it, and also if there are credible threats to come up. It was the next day that's already it happened.
We had to talk to the company about it, just to let them know it's not just me, it's everyone who's worked on this project, their names on it. So there's a potential for all of those people to be chased out. And I didn't mind if they were just having a pop at me. I kind of expected it, but it wasn't okay for them to go after other people. And I have seen some of the stuff that's been said since and that element to it, that kind of modern element of media celebrity that's really ugly.
Yeah, people have tried to message me on Instagram. There was at one stage somebody rang the company here and said that I'd tried to call them and they had forgotten my phone number and asked the reception to give them my phone number. And I know it was the same person because they'd come through your email and Instagram as well. So yeah, it's it's a whole new world now that we have social media involved as well.
And what people seem to be happy to do on social media is be worse towards women. I think the kind of things people have said about me, some of which is laughable, it's actually quite funny, some of which is really nasty.
There definitely is a toxicity I think that is reserved, particularly for women.
Yeah, I was not surprised by.
This, definitely not surprising. But even when you are prepared, and even when you have, as you say, somebody like down warning you, and then the next day it's happening, Yeah, you can be prepared, and then of course there's the reality and you're talking, Nina about people trying to get hold of your phone number. Anyone that's been in that situation would understand that feeling that, well, what else are they trying to fight? And are they trying to get
my address? Are they going to be waiting for me in the office in the car park when I leave? In those moments? Nina? For you, how do you balance that up? Yeah?
And I think for a story like this, when you know what you're doing is important and that it has you know it's worth telling, then yeah, it's worth it.
Let me qualify that. I think it is worth it, and I think on this one it has been worth it. That said, it does take a toll. I don't know if I'll do crime reporting again after this, and I've done in almost twenty years on and off of doing it, but this case, this investigation, this has taken more out of me and we have found things and darknesses that I never expected to and a lot of that is
in the episodes that are coming out from Monday. The things we have seen and found have been utterly shocking. I actually don't know if I want to do this anymore. So I think it's worth doing, but I don't know if I can.
If that makes sense, it does make sense and you just said I think it's worth doing. And when I heard you say that, you don't think you will do?
I don't know. I've got I've got.
That would beg the question. Obviously, WILL want to talk to you both about what you can tell us about what's coming up and some of what you have uncovered. But without getting into that right now, is it worth it? Has it been worth it?
Oh?
Yeah, it's it's definitely worth it. Well, I don't think either of us are sleeping. Well at the moment, we're not sleeping. Dan's had to deal with wild mood swings from me.
That's not true.
Which is I think we could have anticipated. Yeah, I think we could have anticipated where this was going to take us, and I think we both thought it was going to be quite a lot more simple than it was. I think the day I was calling up bowlers from a bowling alley thirty years ago, and maybe the day I was running around trying to find a microcassette tape, and there's just been so many weird wrong turns and
right turns through us. I just don't that we could have anticipated how long, in depth, unusual and dark it was all going to be. But I think it's worth it.
Well, we know there was no small talk in your working relationship, as you're saying, I mean, it got straight straight to the point on your first meeting. This is obviously an extremely intense experience, and it has been the two of you working on it, and you have been doing a lot of traveling as well. You've been on the road a lot to small country towns. You're in
the car together for hours every day. I mean, everyone who's ever done a road trip knows it's not all it's cracked up to be with the little Hollywood movies with their music montage. In fact, talking about montage, I've got a little bit of audio because I was going to ask if you argue, But don't answer that, because just a little bit of audio has made its way into my courtesy of our producer Emma Lee.
We've just pulled up. We have okay. Well, I was going to say, what's on the sign? Certainly helps you yea for the recording audience.
No, I know that I'm not just telling you what's on the sign. I'm waiting for you to say so, Dan.
Well, I was gonna, you know what for once, I was going to say where we were.
But we hadn't pulled up with should we anymore? All right?
See, this is a danger when you're working audio that there's always audio to play back. What that's actually pretty mild. I won't editorialize.
I think we also had a fight where because I was saying that Dan doesn't say yes and enough as a scene partner.
Yes and enough.
Yeah, she didn't know what I.
Was talking about. The role of the reporter is really to do what your producer tells you. And it's possible that that maybe he got blurred after Like I mean, one point, we were doing like six hours in the car next day, six hours in the car next day, and then when you stop it is to do these emotionally charged interviews, and then you're back in the car
driving on. You're staying in these motel rooms. And at one point Nina was up in the middle of the night and the next morning, you know, she's kind of feverishly looking at this thing that seemed really important. And then I get a text the next morning saying I need to talk to you. And the first thing we say is she's back in the car, the microphone's back on. But I wouldn't have wanted to do it with anyone else. And that's the thing that is true. Everything in these
next four episodes is from Nina. Like I, she drove this. The stuff we found, I would never have expected she found it. I'm very much just walking around asking the questions on tape. This is where Nina took charge of the investigation without being asked, because it was mine she to without asking permission, without asking, she took charge of the investigation and just dragged it into being something. It was never going to be that good, but Nina made it.
Dan is exaggerating there, Dan, There's worth a huge amount on this as well.
Coming from that sort of confronting, emotionally draining, physically taxing our duous investigative work. To move in between those different things, presumably is going back to that skill that.
You my wife will talk about this though. I really struggle with the transition from work out of work into family, and I'm not very good at it, partly because our work is intense in terms of the subject because most of my work seems to be murder at the moment, but also the intensity which we bring to it because we're writing scripts, we're writing articles, and then particularly if you're working from home. To flip from that into dinner time.
I've got three kids, one of them is three. It's up to my wife hates I want to say this. It's rolling chaos. And to flip from basically intense murder to oh, it's dinner time with a three year old. I cannot do it. I try so hard. I'm getting better, but I'm working on that. So yeah, it looks we're not perfect at it, but we're doing our best. Is it does affect your sleep? Yeah, he has had dreams
about William Tyrrel. I've got to the point where before I go to sleep, I tell myself, don't think about William tool because I won't go to sleep otherwise.
Will we ever find out what happened to William Tyrell? The answer to that when we come back. Let's talk a little bit then about the next four episodes of Witness, which, as you say, being released from tomorrow Monday, mayn nineteen. As I said at the start, you have uncovered an awful lot of information and that will obviously there'll be new information in each of the four episodes. What can you tell us our audience about what you have uncovered? First, of all.
Yeah, so we came to the end of the Inquest. That's where we left our last episodes.
That's the inquest into William's disappearance.
Yeah, and that inquest it ended very abruptly. In fact, they canceled the.
Last week with a few days warning. They just said, we're not going to have the next hearings.
And I think, again, naively, I was sort of hoping, well, we'll go through the inquest and we'll get all the answers that we need, we won't have any questions left. We got to the end of the inquest, I had more questions than ever and that's when we started looking at some of those questions for this next part of
the series. What we decided to focus on was a particular person of interest in the case who we felt there we're remaining questions about at the inquest, and so we've really gone deep on some of the evidence that was presented at the inquest about him. We've gone on and done our own investigation from there. We've found new witnesses, we've found some potential connections between this person of interest and some other unsolved cases on the Mid North Coast that are not.
William tyrrel we found new allegations about an area the police haven't searched, but that maybe we certainly would have liked to see the police search. And what has struck me throughout is that the evidence we've uncovered, a lot of it was known to the police, or could have been known to the police if they weren't asking questions, and time and again it seems that they haven't.
Again, that's the other thing. I feel like I've been naived the whole time. Every time I go into the next chapter, I'm like, I was really thinking, we're not going to get too far with what we're looking at here, because we're going to realize that the place are in the middle of an active investigation here, and they're going to pop up and they're going to tell us to stop.
Then it became really clear that was not going to happen because the police hadn't spoken to any of these people that they would have had to speak to if they were doing a full investigation.
And people who've told us that they gave this evidence and asked that it be passed on to particular detectives and they've never had a call back. And we've spoken to families of victims who say they call up the police and ask them what's the latest, who's in charge of the investigation now? And they never get phoned back, They never get called back, And you think about the enormity of what's happened to the families involved for the police not to be responding. It just it just appaused me.
And that's not every case. Like I've been a crime reporter and some of the most impressive people I've ever met are in the New South Wales Police Force. I mean that absolutely genuinely. But I used to have such a high opinion of the New South Wales Police Force, and over the course of these two years working on this investigation, that incredibly high opinion of the force, it's just been taken knock after knock after knock after knock,
and there's still some incredibly impressive people there. But I can't say like I used to say that, I just think that force is just a force for good.
Nina, What about for you?
You keep saying that you feel a bit naive sometimes because you assume a certain outcome. Has your trust in the police, investigation and authorities? Has that also been somewhat undermined with your experience in this story.
It definitely has. But I think it's really important to say that these police aren't operating in a vacuum when they're doing these investigations. Everything's being okayed from the top, so they're aware of how these things are operating. So I think that some of that accountability has to go to the top as well. We can't just be saying, like, the police on the ground have done these investigations wrong.
Yeah, and so Nina's right, and some of the accountability has to be kind of reflected back on us as the media, because a lot of what you've seen with the William Toole investigation is newspapers TV taking information from
the police uncritically and publishing it. And I've had conversations with journalists who have said that almost word for word on the back of the most recent inquest, which showed no evidence against the foster mother, who have said to me, we took this information from the police in good faith, and it turns out it wasn't fair, and maybe the mistake is we took it in good faith and just
repeated what we were told. And you can say that about Bill Spedding, and you can say that about me because I reported on Bill Spedding when he was arrested. He was charged unrelated offenses, but he was charged and ultimately that case was thrown out and it was described as the worst case of malicious prosecution in the history of New South Wales. But I reported it all in
good faith, so I'm not innocent here. But I do think when Nina talks about accountability, you've got to look at the cops in charge, and you do have to look at the media.
Once all the information that's going to be revealed in these new four episodes is out there in the public domain later in the week, what would you be anticipating or hoping? Maybe both of those you can answer. In terms of the police investigation.
I would like to see the police investigate some of this new information that we've found, and if they don't, I would like to know.
Why Ninna's more hopeful than I am.
Again, if you I'm going in a bit nicely, I'll come back to you.
I would like to see I would like to see a lot if I'm honest. At this point, we know because the lead lawyer at the inquest just before Christmas of last year said that there is no evidence no forensic evidence, no eyewitness evidence about what happened to William in terms of how William was taken from that house where he was last known to be to wherever he is now. So we know there is no evidence. I would like to see the police and the coroner stop
and say, well, that's not good enough. We're not just going to wrap up the investigation, which they're due to do later this year when the coroner will hand down a report. I would like them to say, we're not accepting that. We are going to throw everything at it again until we find William. I would also, and this is where it gets impossible, I would like to see them do that for do you know how many unsolved
homicides there are in New South Wales. There are hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of families whose loved ones were murdered or went missing and have no answers. I would love to see them do that for all of those. And I would love for there to be a proper investigation, and I mean it's going to have to be special commission or Royal Commission powers into firstly, what went wrong with the William Tirell investigation, because ten years later we
haven't found it. But also I'd love to see that investigation into what went wrong with all these other unsolved homicides, because the closer you look at them, you realize that things were done wrong in a lot of them. I would love to see all of that. I don't expect to see any of it, and that that really bothers me.
Do you think we will ever find out what happened to William Tyrrel.
I hope that we get answers. Am I hopeful that we will. It's looking less and less likely ten years on. Witnesses are getting older, dying and losing their memories. And you know, there are witnesses that we've spoken to in these new episodes that are coming out this week that the police haven't spoken to yet, but by this point their memories are already going. So we know that it's too late for the police really to speak to these people.
It may be too late, But I really really hope we get answers.
I think we might. I think we might, And it might well be something that comes up seemingly out of the blue. A new witness comes forward, a new piece of evidence, A detective picks up the file and goes well, what about that that happens in other cases. But I'm pretty sure that if it does happen, and we know this from talking to other detectives, that if that does happen, if we do get an answer, that answer will already
be there in the files somewhere. The police have got so many tens of thousands of different documents and exhibits and reports and statements. The little detail that is the key to this will be in that file somewhere. They just haven't found it yet or realized what it is. And if we do answer this case, I bet you are able to go back and say there, that's the point it went wrong.
What role also does public scrutiny play in this in terms of going back to accountability when it comes to police? We know that this new information will be picked up by all other media across Australia. What you have uncovered will there'll be huge public interest in it for the reasons that we've talked about. Because William's disappearance has been a source of fascination for eleven years now, we know that that sort of public appetite, scrutiny, renewed interest and
demand for answers. Is this new information being investigated. Dan, you talked about investigators not returning phone calls from witnesses, not having their opportunity to speak being taken up. Are you optimistic, either of you, that that sort of interest that these new four episodes it's going to put it back on the front burner in a way that the Sweetel would and didn't.
Well, we know, I mean we've spoken to homicide detectives about this, about the role that the media plays in the kind of resourcing that they get and the pressure that they get. Politically, Yeah, it can definitely push push resources onto a case and give them more of a focus. I don't know whether we will see that in this case.
It can happen, though, Yeah, it does happen, and that's when the job's really good. Yeah, when you do see a case that has been forgotten or put to one side or left and opened, and you do see it picked up where you pick it up, and then you see because what happens is it's on the front pages or on the websites or on the TV. The politicians pick up the phone and they ask the police commissioner what's going on. The police commissioner picks up the phone
and asks they had a homicide, what's going on? And that filters down and suddenly you've got people looking for answers. So it can happen.
It can happen, and when it does happen, it will happen because of the two of you.
It happens.
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's because of the two of us that a lot of really brave people have come forward and spoken, and they're the ones who are really putting themselves on the line to do that. We're just standing there with a microphone, So it's definitely won't come down to us.
But it is that pressure though, isn't it. And it is giving a platform for those people to be heard and then force some pressure to be brought to bear on authorities to act. My final question for you both and is about the people that are at the heart of this case. William's love to answer his families. Do you believe that this what might transpire this week in the public domain? Do you think that will bring them some sort of relief. Obviously you've spoken to them, you
know them. Are you able to talk a little bit about what you think this new information might mean for them, how they're feeling and again with the case back in the headlines this week, what it might mean for them in terms of that elusive goal of closure.
We've spoken to some of them. Some of them have chosen not to speak to us, and we have to respect that because what they're going through. We can't imagine to lose a child in those circumstances and never have an answer. So we have spoken to some of them, both biological family and foster family. I met with some of them just a few days ago. I'll be honest, I think the effect will be turbulence for them, emotional to urbulence. But the sense that I get at the
moment from talking to them is of anger. Anger everything that has played out since that moment that William was reported missing, Anger at the lack of a resolution, Anger that were still here ten years ago, basically asking why hasn't this been fixed? And I think that anger is going to flare again as a result of what we're about to report.
Well, congratulations on everything that you have achieved so far and in these upcoming new four episodes of Witness, William tyrrel Nina Young, Dan Box, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you everyone, for joining our editorial meeting. I think you would agree.
That's a way more glamorous, not your usual.
Of course, there was audio, because, as we've just discovered thanks to Emily, we always have audio of all of our conversations. Not really HR, that's not legal. Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review or sending it to a friend, and make sure you're following something to talk about, because we'll be back with another exclusive guest next week