SUPERMAN II

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Welcome you to Superman 2. This is with Corley and Russ, and I'm the... Titular Gourley. And I am the...

The Astular Rust. The Astular Rust. I wanted to say it with sort of a Superman-like delivery. Oh, that's nice. Astular Rust. How are you, Paul? Now, we haven't even acquainted each other really this morning because... i have a somewhat of a hard out so we you just came in the door recording like the the stream was going and the mics were rolling that's right usually when uh we come in maybe have like a little 10 15 minutes of catch-up time um

But it's good. It feels like with the same speed and velocity that Superman came in his little transport in the first movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And... The things we're about to say now is like Marlon Brando's narration inside that role. I wish I would have picked a reference to Superman 2. What's something that moves with speed and velocity? Rocky, the diner bully, being sent down the counter by a newly repowered Superman. Yes, yes. And a spinning...

The episode is sort of like him getting spun up on the seat at the diner wedge. A lot of spinning in these movies because he spins down to Luthor's lair. That's right. Why am I saying Luthor like Otis? But you're saying it.

That's correct. And that was one of the notes I made was that you got the prison guards. going, hey, Luther, Luther. And I'm like, I don't think they're pronouncing it right. I guess it would be E-R if it was Luther. Yeah, and then Gene Hackman, when he's introducing himself, to the baddies when they're in the Oval Office, he says, Luther, my name is Luther. And I'm like, So Otis

The dummy is the only one who's correctly pronouncing the name right. It is Luthor. But you don't take it from the horse's mouth, Luthor himself? According to Gene Hackman? I mean, this is the same set of movies that have Marlon Brando saying Krypton. Krypton. So I don't think there's the script supervisor coming in and being like, it's actually Krypton. It's actually Luthor. It's a long story and history of, you know, Lucas calling Hoth Hoth.

and things so honestly who can you trust this is what happens when we don't get to talk before recording we do all our fine how do you do is on mic

Well, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. You know, I had a very kind of very non... Superman... Wait, non-the... Supercriminal? Not the Supercriminal. Uh... nor Zod nor um so a non-Superman you had a bizarro man well more Clark Kent okay uh uh last Wednesday, so 8... days ago um my uh daughter went off to her dance class and she was like driving away

She was driving? Yes. This was a weird day. Was this the day we recorded? You went right from our recording to your daughter driving? To her driving instruction class. Jesus. And yeah, she's the first. licensed seven-year-old on the road. Take that, Corey Haim. No, she was getting driven. She was in the back seat and wanted to squeeze in one extra laugh before her dance class. So as she was driving away... I was like running in place.

Not running after the car, just staying in the place and like pretending like, oh, I probably had Superman on the brand. I was doing like Superman train run from the first movie. Oh, yeah, yeah. That kind of like weird in place. Nothing touches the ground. Yes, yes. And she didn't see this because the car had... Driven away. Oh, I really love this, that no one's viewing this. This is a tree falling in the forest. Okay.

Yes, a comedy tree. If a comedy tree falls, will anybody laugh? The answer is no. Didn't you? what did you do okay so I would do that and my left foot sort of catches the side of the sidewalk and my ankle turns and i just completely eat shit i fall over my uh right hand hurts because i used it to stop myself and so it's like one of those things like two days later i like pick up

A banana or something. I'm like, ow, what's going on with that? But it's gone down a little bit. My left foot is really swollen compared to my right foot. See this? No kidding. So I've just been taking it. easy but it is me Jerry Lewis-like Clark Kent style falling over the sidewalk was a very... Did you do this to your glasses after? I pushed them off. Golly, Lois. Golly, Lois. Oh my God, I'm glad you're okay. Yeah, and then my glasses fell off and then somebody walked by and said, who are you?

And then immediately somehow jumped into Niagara Falls. But, yeah, the... There was some... embarrassment of me picking myself up off the ground and like shuffling into my house. How many people do you think? saw you nobody saw david fincher didn't see you you know for those non-regular listeners and i don't mean non from superman too uh david fincher sometimes walks his dog in paul's neighborhood I haven't seen a dog.

Oh, I thought you said he was walking the dog. No, he was just walking. I was walking my. You were walking your dog. I just wanted to, you know. Yeah. So if any people who are like, wait a minute, I know for. fact david fincher owns no hound podcast is a lie yeah this guy must be a liar because he's no hound owner that's right um uh I'm trying to think right now of a David Fincher movie where the title can be changed to a dog party. Does he have any...

F titles that start with F because Fido is like a really funny dog. Fido club. Fido club. And all dogs go to seven.

Phyto Club is pretty good. Matt, how are you? Well, I'm good. And speaking of trying to make someone laugh and do a joke, I have one that bombed horribly. And I thought... No, this actually is better served on the podcast delivered to Paul because I think you're about one of the only people that would appreciate it. Sunday we went to Hermosa Beach for a lovely day down at the beach and we ate at a wonderful old diner called Martha's Diner.

And Glenn ordered the Mickey pancakes. Martha, Clark Kent's mom. That's right. Yeah. You know what Mickey pancakes are, right? Oh, you take three different pancakes to make it look like Plinky Rourke. Oh, that was my joke!

that's hilarious oh my god because it came so messed up and deformed that I was like this is more like Mickey Rourke let's shake hands the livestock right now is getting to see matt by shake hands that's really good oh my god but but you know like glenn obviously didn't know what the hell i was talking about i don't feel like amanda fully appreciate it so i had to just tuck it away because it felt like unclosed tab until i get a laugh on that a little like you were like

I think you might appreciate this. And I more than appreciate it. I know. You've simpaticoed it. I've simpaticoed it. Oh, my God. Well, that's great. I guess there's other messed up Mickeys we could have even chosen, like Mickey from the Rocky movie.

My pancake face is all messed up. And if there was one that came out doing a horrible Asian impersonation, it would be Mickey Rooney. Yeah, if one came out really small, Then like a Mickey thing that's like tiny that you can go, I thought it was supposed to be Mickey Mouse, not Mickey Rooney. Because he's a little tiny guy. Whenever I see, I learn this term where... When a camera is on a dolly on track. And they're like... Just pushing it up a little.

Forward. Yeah. They go, we're going to do the Mickey Rooney. I'm like, Mickey Rooney. And I'm like, yeah, we're going to do a little creep. Is that true? Yeah. Oh my God. Little creep. Mickey Rooney in. Do a Mickey Rooney in. Oh, that's great. Maybe if there's a technique on sets called elder abuse, then you could also say that he was elderly abused.

He was abused. He was an abuser. He was abused as an elder. By whom? His handler or whatever. I don't want to, you know, allegedly, let's say. And legendarily.

Legendarily. Legendarily. He was allegedly. Wow. Now, Matt, I mentioned the live scream. Yes. People who are listening to this podcast for the first time might go, WTF? Yeah. And we'd say no. What the Fido? What the Fido? You're not listening to WTF. You're listening to WGAR. Yeah. Where if you subscribe to... Lock the gates of the fortress of solitude. If you subscribe to our Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Gourley and Rust. With Gourley and Rust. With Gourley and Rust, you're right.

You can get feature length commentaries, mailbag episodes. And if you subscribe at the baby xenomorph level, you can have your name read on the podcast and watch all recordings. of the regular episodes. on live screen which is happening right now hello everybody and i love our crew like healthy batch of people this morning yeah that's awesome love love seeing everybody's names getting love getting to read people's thoughts as they share as we

Yeah, because I fired it up a little early because there was an accident on the freeway. And like I said, I have a hard out. Did I say that on mic? I don't know. But so I was chatting with them a bit and then you came in rolling. Yeah. And here we are ready to go. Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, the accident I saw was.

A little metropolis level in terms of its... Really? Like Richard Lester level of cause and effect? A guy on roller skates was going backwards on the road. For a long time? That wind sequence. Yes, that is... You know, if you kind of like painted a spectrum of colors going from like white. to black or black to white or a rainbow

you can sort of, and you put all the Superman movies back to back, you can see at the end of part two how it begins to blend into the beginning of part three with the slapstick. Yeah.

But yeah, I saw three cars. Three cars. And the people were seeing outside and I was going by it just when the... maintenance uh the people who are coming to help with the well i hope they're okay they were okay everybody was okay but it was a real smasharoo jeez yeah when i went by i rolled down my window and i said Did Zod come by? Lester much? Yeah, they're like, Richard? They're like, yeah. They're like, did you just watch The Lester God of Superman. I'm like, yes. And they're like, but.

For the bonus episode next month, you guys are doing the Richard Donner cut of Superman. I said yes, yes, yes. For the commentary. For the commentary. Deal with your family. Why are you talking to me? Mickey Rourke.

So for Superman 2, I mean, as we get into it right now, as we launch into the air, I will say that... If you're a fan of superhero movies or a fan of Superman or not, Superman 2, if you're just a movie lover, is this really interesting object of because you know Matt here on our podcast we love talking about franchises and how a sequel tries to capture the same lightning in the bottle as the first movie that was so successful and we always go, you know, there's always a difference.

the first and second there's never i don't think ever been a sequel where the tone or the level of verisimilitude continues gracefully and then maybe godfather part two it's like the only thing that i think of like they don't over i mean They go bigger because they're doing the two parallel stories. Yeah, and it's more international. Yeah, but they don't, it doesn't quote unquote like jump the shark. It never goes into a realm of like, this is hard to believe. If anything.

they burrow down more into the psychology of the characters that there's even more verisimilitude. You're like, wow, I can really understand how all these people are feeling. It doesn't overreach.

Superman 2, I think, is the rare exception because Richard Donner has 20% of his footage in there. And that's the original team. That's him. Jeffrey Unworth. John Barry. John Barry. John Williams. Yes. Gone Williams for this movie. Gone Williams. And Gene Hackman, you know, he didn't come back, so all of his scenes are Richard Donner shot scenes.

I can't think of a sequel where you can watch this like weird scene to scene scene to scene kind of connecting original team of part one and part it'd be like if you could watch Friday the 13th Part 2 where... Sean Cunningham directed 20% and Steve Miner directs 80%. You can kind of go, oh, I see the part oneness and still in here. And I see the new part two, like,

Just as an object, for that reason, it's a pretty fascinating movie to watch. I agree, because I found when I... always historically loved this movie, especially as a kid, even more than the first one. I haven't watched it in a while. This time it didn't hold up as well for me, but in the context that you're saying, as the study of an academic look at what happens when a movie gets cobbled together by two directors.

and how you can see they have totally different styles. It's like Lester wasn't even really trying to match, which is so strange because Warner Brothers was so adamant if Donner, they wanted Donner, and if he wasn't going to do it, it had to be Lester because...

the Salkinds wanted Guy Hamilton who actually is very I think would have made a very similar movie to the lesser Superman 2 because he's just got a kind of a little bit of a slapstick approach to the Bond films, but watching all of this come together and then watching in a wonderful way all the seams in the action set pieces where you can just literally see the seams like when non shoots his laser eyes at the the rails of the truck, the wood rails.

There's just a segment that's just slightly discolored and you can see that it's papered over and painted and that's where the little fire squib is going to be. And I just love those little moments when a manhole cover pops off. You can just see the little... spout for the steam and it's like it's almost like you're on a dark ride you know where you can see all the little special effects and it's so pleasurable and so like dopamine releasing for me even though the movie this time really kind of

didn't hold me like it used to you know yeah yeah but i hear you that and the whatever that like tactile combination of like uh what the final fight when they're like going through the sky yeah the like Just the look of those three baddies in Superman. against a like cobalt blue night sky and a projection screen of real New York City night footage combined with a model and then combined with a facade fake building and then combined with like just stunt show.

cloud of dust yeah the set makes it look like a theme park stunt show it's the best I mean it's really I'm in in heaven and there's stuff yes that like is just as good or if not there's moments that are just as good if not better than the first superman movie i feel but yes the first superman movie is like

it feels like. And the Richard Lester thing, it's funny that there are two Richards, Donner and Lester. The Richards having it out. And Richard Griffiths. Don't forget Richard Griffiths who plays one of the terrorists from Harry Potter. Oh, right. I forget. This one is... full of people from like all the films you know and love and also duo syllable Richards Donner Lester Griffiths Griffiths yeah that The first Superman, it's not like, okay, Richard Lester, he's a...

Gag man. He puts in a lot of gags. Gag man from way back. Gag man from way back. It's not as if... The first Superman and the Richard Donner touches are... funny like superman the first superman's really funny i'd say arguably more capable with its comedy exactly maybe not even arguably i think demonstrably well then this 2080 split that we're talking about, like, you can even see it in the differences, like... There's a wet

to Richard Donner stuff. Yeah, that's right. Like a character-based wit. And in-world humor. Yes, yes. With Richard Lester, it's like... Not wet.

And it's not like I'm against stuff that's not witty. No, I'm actually very curious to see Superman 3 when he has it all his way. Yes. And it might work better. But it's like, it's... silent film comedy that he's doing so like yeah you have the like when zod starts blowing metropolis and you get like a five minute like extended gagaroo unbelievable one of them that is like okay so there's the guy in the roller skates blowing back it's okay why that guy just wouldn't

dropped to his knees and why is there a guy in roller skates to be given but the gag that like goes really far because it's not even the character doesn't have human intelligence. The guy on the phone. That went so far that I actually laughed. Oh, I laughed too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not above a funny joke of a guy getting blown over at a payphone. continuing his conversation even though he's getting blown away on the ground and he's like

Mary Poppins style, I love to laugh style, like laughing. Like these other people are like, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'd be very curious to know. How? much time there is between that moment and either before or after the soonest Donner. take yes because those have got to feel like the most nosebleed to go from one to the other yes yes yes um so that like weird

push and pull between wit and slapstick makes the comedy interesting. And the drastically noticeable production values. For one thing, John Barry, the production designer, died. as well as the DP, I believe. Yeah. Who was the DP on 2001. Yeah. And he passed away between the shooting of Superman one and two. So not only a change in personnel, but clearly there.

cutting way back on the budget there's just not the like put the money on the screen kind of thing that's why you're seeing all these seams so heavily and you can see it like with um There's a moment of Donner shot Zod flying into the fortress of solitude near the end. Yeah. And it's such a graceful. in camera like he's just kind of lowering and you're like that's I know what I haven't been seeing in any of the Richard Lester flying stuff it's like so

Janky. Well, they were using this new system called the Zoptic method that I don't fully understand, but it sounds to me... It's almost like how Star Wars did motion control with its spaceships and the camera. So they're doing projection that seems to be able to be synced with the camera for zooms and pans, not just like lock down the camera. And the background is doing zooms and pans. It's matching what the actors in front of the projection are doing.

But according to Brantley's great notes, like Sarah Douglas said, it was just really uncomfortable. Uncomfortable, yeah. Yeah, because you're in more of a harness than you are. And let me just say, Brantley Palmer... who gives us all these wonderful notes that we later put on the Patreon.

He's our Superman, man. He is our Superman. These notes are fantastic. Every movie he ever does. He's got a Superman build. Yeah, like carriage. Yes, yeah. Is that a word? Proust-like. David Proust-like. Yes, Proustian.

The original Proustian. But the, like, yeah, the... distinction between like those two is like uh pretty fascinating the like the stuff that's like awesome about superman 2 that i like love is um oh oh just what i was just gonna say about the effects like you said that they're wonkier in this one like I've noticed it's it's really really bad when they have to do like those wide shots of somebody like flying up and away or far and close they kind of just do this like weird like

What were those things that you'd color and then you'd put into the oven? Shrinky ding? Yeah, like a shrinky ding. Oh, yeah. Shrinky-dink looking kind of stuff just like gliding past. Yeah. Those look really, really bad. So did when there were a few optical effects and they weren't great either. I mean, sometimes, and I like it for it.

charm yeah but there's times where they just take the really lazy route of just animating so they'll have like when and I love it but like there's a part where like at the beginning when after

Superman throws the terrorist bomb up in the sky and he kind of falls back where they just animate this little cartoon Superman. I know, and same with when they get busted out of the Phantom Zone here and it just becomes like... from Fantasia yes it's crazy yeah it looks like a heavy metal or something like this kind of like water colored animation that's like above It's not cartoony. They're trying to give it like a realistic look so it has this kind of weird uncanny. And then when Zod...

takes the fire and kind of bends it when they're in the Houston and he bends the fire so that it goes out of the building. That's just like straight up. cartoon animation so they're like taking

And I guess it's similar to, you know, we live in a world now where sequels know they have to like, they can't cut corners. Like the whole point of why we're doing this is to bring more spectacle. But this comes at a time of like... Whatever, like those Planet of the Apes sequels, where they like

do less and less budget, less effects as the movies go on. It's like, what are you guys... doing if you just put in a little bit more budget you'll get more money back i don't understand everything you hear about this all kinds just sounds like a nightmare i mean the fact that like All the actors are like Team Donner. It doesn't seem like there's one. The actor who played Don was like... Richard Lester is like the biggest. you're like

He said that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, because the other stuff I'd read is that they got along okay with Lester. It wasn't his fault, but they were hated, this all kinds, but... No one said that. He's such a gentle giant. I know. That's right. John Williams who like in my mind is like the definition of Genial. Yeah. He, after doing a session with Richard Lester, was like, I'm out. I can't work with this guy. He was going to do the second movie.

And they let him go. After Jaws and Star Wars, the Salkins just let him go, regardless of whether he's having an issue. I mean, how big of a dick do you have to be, Richard Lester, that like... John Williams picks up his baton and goes home. I'd love to be a fly on the wall. And how much hubris do you have to have as a Salkind to go like, well, we already got Williams' theme. We got what we asked for and what we paid for, so we'll just have some other guy.

do the music. Yes. And you can tell. Oh, I would not, I mean, my first note is when you're watching it and the, the, uh, Yeah. The tonality of it. There's some off notes in it at one point when it transitions. パンパン Um... PAM PAM PAM y It sounded like a tape like stall. Yeah, it was crazy. It's, uh, yeah. It says a lot that in the orchestration, you can hear a difference. It's like, guys, I think it'd be pretty easy just to reproduce.

A sound and a note. I'm assuming you own the masters. Just use them. Yes. Because you're using footage from the first one. That must be even. more of a budget-cutting, cutting-quarters thing. Yeah, because they'd have to pay John Williams. Yeah, so just repeat what he recorded. We can't use those master tapes, so... Wow. I mean...

every respect that's... And, you know, like... Christopher Reeve admits to this his body size is just a little different like in the Eiffel Tower scene there's a part where he shoots up and like my man's looking doughy. Yeah. Cause you know, there was all this production closed down and once his contractors up, he went and did somewhere in time and then they got somewhere in time at the buffet. somewhere at the buffet in time. I'm kidding. He's like, I would kill for Christmas. And then after...

He started doing that movie that got production going again, so he had to come back five days after that. But not only his waistline, When he picks up Zod in the Fortress of Solitude and throws him over the cliff, he's just got huge pit stains under.

his arms. There's just no attention to quality. I didn't have somebody with a hairdryer just off to the camera. Let's make sure Reeves pit stains. And then just, just, right out of the gate to just like elucidate the difference between the two is they're showing a huge like Friday the 13th length

recap throughout the titles but not only that they start the same way with same music i know superman starts with that little theater intro but when you go to krypton um there's the zoom in on the model but they're like speeding that up the music's subpar everything's kind of like jerking along and you're going like wait i know this this is giving me yes exactly happy feelings but at the same time it's like there's stop hitting the brakes yes yes i agree

And that's the metaphor of this movie. Yes, I thought that too! The opening sequence is the metaphor of the movie. I thought that too, Matt, the way the credits... are edited part one versus part two is alone just enough to tell you how this movie is different because the first opening credits have this like and they're overly long i mean i think like world record ways like it's the longest opening titles because they have to like show

from the beginning of the credit coming and then going across and you're like, damn, we're going to have to do 25 more of these before those credits. And with this, they speed that up and then intercut between the things so you're not even... waiting for the delay between the two names you see a name then you get a previously on i feel like it's like the difference between and i haven't done either of these substances, but it does seem like Superman part one is like the 1978 lewds.

vibe of just kind of this like 2001 yeah hazy smoky valium hot kind of like relaxed yeah and superman 2 is like uk coke welcome to coke yeah yeah like whatever that kind of speedy london kind of vibes is just like i know and then

You smash cut into what I have to assume is a Richard Donner sequence because it's just this amazing shot of this trooper, a Krypton trooper you never see before or again.

and it's most engaging like what is this guy who is he what is and then zod comes in and cracks his neck It's just the composition and the framing and everything is so... strange compared to what you've just seen but also so takes me in so that i mean that one shot takes me in because i want to know so much about these troopers are what's up with that yeah trooper he's like a little like storm like is he a robot do you think that's a kryptonian i thought so too because does he say

See, I think he's not. I think he's a man. But then I think Richard Lester comes in and puts this computer voice over it just going like, well, it's a robot. You know, we're on Krypton. It's a robot. Yes, yes. And then, you know, the... you're pretty quickly aware of how this is going to be different because Okay, so you can't get Marlon Brando back. Or in this case, they shot stuff for Superman.

brando and superman 2 then he sued them for more money and they said wow if we don't use this footage in part 2 then he has no claim for the more money So it's like, okay, I understand movies where they can't get the original actor back, but to totally gaslight us by repeating the scene from the first movie that we already saw, the trial of Zod.

But just with no Brando there. And to then bring in Susanna York as his mother who can now just have full conversations from beyond. Yes. It's not a recording. No. Right. And I... was really kind of taking delight in that when he goes to mommy scene because I'm like, Superman, I know you're still new to this world relatively. You're still understanding human beings. But if you got a lady in your pad and she says, Excuse me. Literally, she says, I'm going to put on something more comfortable.

Don't. Run to your mom to ask if it's okay. That's when you really need Brando. Pay!

The bill. Yes, and then it's funny because... Oh, you don't want Brando advising me. Well, the change, though, of making going from Brando to Susanna York, basically going from daddy to mommy, is like... Just think about it in your own personal life, any man's personal life. the advice you get from your mom about whether you should go and get laid is going to be very different than your dad's advice. I mean, like, they might find different ways to couch it and not be, um...

A pig. As far as we know, he's a virgin up to this point. Yes! And it's so funny that the mom's giving advice that makes it sound like Superman has to take her word, but it could just be a mom who... it's an edible thing she doesn't want to like lose her little boy so she's just kind of like making stuff up like Yeah, well, honey, you can be with another woman. You can leave your mommy now.

you're going to lose all your powers. She's bluffing. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Women, if you date them, they steal your power. Change your affections from your mom to another woman. You're going to lose all your power. That's where all your strength comes is from loving me. But if then... Superman went to Brando, went to his dad. I was like, hey, mama's saying this thing about like, if I lose.

No, no, no. Go for it, my man. Go get laid. Wear a trash can on your head and a big robe and just talking nonsense and talk about Krypton.

I timed it. This recap, which is really an entre-act. The movie starts with that trooper at 8 minutes and 33 seconds. The Troop. Oh, whoa. So that's a good... They get everything in there, including they get that little Superman peony in there again, too. They had to. They had to. There was some law at the time. I mean, I...

Even though I was saying it's kind of like a jacked up version previously on, I do like that previously on. It gets me roused. I know that it's a different taste than the first one. But I like it on that it gets me pumped. It does. And then also I like it because I think it's sort of like... suite of the filmmakers now look you could take the cynical approach and be like they didn't

They get to have all the glory of the effects and thrills of the first one, and they're just pumping it in to get you goosed. Yes. I'm not going to take that point of view, man. I'm going to take the point of view that they're being sweeties and are like, you know. There's some people in 1981. They're sitting down in the theater to watch this movie.

A sequel to a movie that they haven't seen for three years since they were last in the theater. Is it? Well, yeah, I guess it's 81 in the States. That's right. Yeah, and it's 81, I guess, summertime, whereas it was 78 in Australia. Yeah, what an interesting release pattern. Six months later it came out. Yeah. Wow. And that becomes interesting too then with that like, right, Australia scene in like 1980. December 1980, and...

The president is very Reagan-coded. He's not like Jimmy Carter-coded. But when that came out in Australia in 1980, when they were filming that, there was no... at any point, a suggestion that Reagan was president because he got elected in November 19, right? And then doesn't get inaugurated. But by the time it comes to our shores, And into June 1981, it would be like, oh, this makes

perfect sense. This has been our president for five months now. The decoy president has more Carter energy and then he steps aside. I never thought about that. It is like, yeah, Jimmy Carter would kneel before Zod, but then Reagan would come out. I mean and then that very like you could write a Just, you know, a very easy, social, sociocultural.

term paper about the end of Superman 2 of like what the difference is between 1978 and 1981 that he literally comes back to like restore the White House and he says don't worry I will never leave you again it's like Hey, folks, the 80s have started. We're in a different era. To add an even more symbolic metaphor to that is that image of him flying the dome of the White House back on with the American flag. is a still picture, but... In the still picture is a giant water fountain in front.

with just still water shooting up. I didn't notice that. It's crazy. And that's a metaphor for not only this movie, but America at the time. Just like a veneer. Everything's a veneer. We wanted to have still waters or the water. The big controversy in politics around that time was Watergate, but now it's water still.

What's crazy too is that, like I mentioned last in the last episode of why they even took the time to do that Zod non-Ursa stuff in the first movie, even though I love it. It's super cool. It gives Brianna something to do, but they could have done the Krypton stuff without any of that. Because in this movie, you end up going back and showing the crime. that they do and watching them get arrested and then a speed up version of the trial so

We're seeing new footage of something we've already seen. Before the first movie began. It's like kind of weirdly rewinding. It's strange. And then you never see them again in the first movie. Right. It's really strange. Yeah, and then they kind of have to do this... In the first one, him throwing out the missile. Into space.

he grabs the missile and then flies up to space and pushes it out. That was the thing that was supposed to destroy them in the Phantom Zone. But now they had to come up with a new thing. So that means Superman throws the bomb from the Eiffel Tower into space. Don't get me wrong, I love that sequence, but they could have just ended their recap.

with him throwing the bomb into outer space, and then starting with the Phantom Zone, guys getting released. Exactly. It's really strange. Yeah, and also because then it makes it seem like... Superman is like the biggest galactic litter bug. Like, this dude's just like... YOU KNOW! You have a better understanding of the far reaches of outer space than anybody else, and you're just like throwing shit.

I guess it's okay. I mean, there's radiation out there. Once you get outside the atmosphere, you're fucked anyway. I mean, by the late 70s, people were already ecology-minded. Yeah. Superman would be a little more ecologically minded about the universe. But yeah, then he throws it out during that.

Fantastic. I loved this so much. Did I space out this time? But do we ever see what happens to those terrorists? No, in the same way that you don't, Luthor apparently walks free in Superman 2. And poor Otis is just, that's one thing he's left behind as a... like Luthor's little flunky but

Just as a character, he's just completely dismissed. Donner must have had other ideas or something it's so weird though because that footage of him being left behind is Donner shot yeah so it's like wow they were okay with this idea of leaving Otis behind which is like

It's a real loss. But who knows what more Gene Hackman stuff they were going to do. That's true. I've seen The Donner Cut, but it's been since it first came out and I remember nothing about it. I've watched it too. Yeah. I mean, the...

Otis that Otis is kind of a loose end still at the end like you don't even get Luthor dropped back in prison at the end and Otis is like hey welcome back or whatever that must have been the plan and then also Miss Tessmacher gets lost like Her last thing is just after they go to the Fortress of Solitude, at some point...

And Luthor just seemingly casts her aside between that point and when he goes to the White House. And so these two really great characters and actors that I love watching on screen with Luthor just get kind of like... cast aside in a disappointing way along with the Eiffel Tower Terrace. Where did those guys go? Jimmy Olsen. Yeah. Never gets anything in this. But that said, that Eiffel Tower scene is like... Um...

If I had to pick like three sequences from these Christopher Reeve Superman movies, I was just going to like pull a scene out to show somebody like what makes these Superman movies awesome. That Eiffel Tower scene is kind of like the best. Agreed. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even... I love the first movie, but the way that the... Lois Lane helicopter rescue goes right into his like multiple rest like other night of which is awesome but like it doesn't necessarily hold as like a full action sequence like

oh, it's an eight-minute set piece of beginning, middle, and end because then it becomes just this larger night of heroism. But as a standalone...

Action set piece. That Eiffel Tower is kind of like the best. Big couple of years for the Eiffel Tower. You got Superman 2. European vacation. View to a kill. Wow! They must have needed a lot of money at the Eiffel Tower or something for repairs. Yeah, didn't they get in the 80s like that and the Statue of Liberty was getting repairs done and I was always like, wait.

The French gave us the statue. Was there some sort of statute of limitations? The warranties of quality. The warranties of the 80s. The repair of... Mid-repair, Statue of Liberty features heavily in... Somewhere in 1985, a French tickler a guy bought. And in France, is like going to use it. Then it like just falls apart. It's like, what's going on with all this French stuff? That Statue of Liberty being repaired is in Remo Williams. He's like has fights all along the scaffolding. Oh, wow. Yeah.

yeah me but that Eiffel Tower stuff like the combination of again like actual footage Like, the actual footage of them in the little, um... shoot yeah where you see the camera it must be hooked on the bottom and it's going down and up that stuff is incredible amazing i love the like set of the top of the Eiffel Tower that's like this it looks it's so gloomy yes yes but such a set yes I love that one of the terrorists is wearing new at the time those type of

I was a young skier. My dad was a big skier, so he had the whole family skiing. I started... pre-ski poles and skied until I was 18 and had my own agency and said, I don't want to do this. But those goggles in the late 70s and early 80s, these like European style full, almost half face, like usually color tinted goggles.

were such a big deal and i remember it was the only thing about skiing that i liked and for christmas i wanted those goggles because they're kind of like spy like yeah and then remember john ritter wears them for his costume in Hero at Large. I've never seen it! What? Oh god, maybe we should tack that on to this. We might have to. Because it's probably... It's a Superman movie.

but it's like a real version of what if a real guy tried to be Superman but for his costume he wears would you want to tack that on sure you know I love Ritter okay I know you do and it's Ann Archer Okay, sign me up. Okay, so for the fifth movie in this series, we'll do it. zero at large.

Good. That's funny. I was just listening to... I've really been into... listening to Pauline Kael interview and lectures on YouTube. And just yesterday, Matt, I was listening to her do a lecture at Berkeley in 1980. And she was like, The tail that's wagging the dog she needs that term now in Hollywood is they want to know that they can sell a movie to television. So they're softening stuff.

so that it's easier to play on TV. She's like, you're not going to see the last detail now because people would be thinking about, well, we'll have to re-record a new language track to show it on movies. And then also that... International audiences need a... premise that is easy to understand.

And then the last bit, she's like, and that's also why you're seeing all these TV actors now start being in movies. So you got Henry Winkler in... Night shift. Yeah, and then she's... Not night shift, it was the... Where he's like a wrestler. He's like a gorgeous George style wrestler and Carl Reiner directed. I wish I could remember the way. And then she was like, and John Ritter and Hero at Large.

from her lips to your heart and it edges up to a kind of Mr. Mom style sweetness and coziness and like melodrama it's nowhere near as good yes in my memory please It'll be fun to watch. That's great. That's great.

and then yeah the Eiffel Tower stuff like I love the like look of her underneath the elevator like her getting whipped up and down and like sucked up to the top is so action-packed i love it yeah um when superman shows up and saves her that's incredible Something to note too about that Eiffel Tower sequence that's pretty interesting is just in a compare and contrast between the first and the second is like...

Those are... real deal real world villains like in the first one you know he stops up like we talked about like a burglar a diamond who has suction cups and uses like the glass cutting thing

And when they go into his bag, it's Jules. This is like... Terrorism. It is a pretty big difference in villainy. The villain choices about this whole franchise are strange because it's Luthor, obviously. I love the choice of Zod and Ursa. Of course. But then they abandoned the comic books, right? Superman 3 is just like Robert Vaughn. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I feel like before Robert Vaughn...

Who is like a millionaire. He's a rich guy. Yeah. After Superman 3, the comics started making Luthor a rich guy. Oh, he wasn't always? He was like a genius who maybe could get his hands on money to make inventions or whatever. But this guy was like a guy who's like independently wealthy and can like fund all this. So I read somewhere that some people think

okay, Luthor could have been in Superman 3 as the Robert Vaughn character. He wasn't. So they just make him Luthor 2. It wasn't meant to be that. It was meant to be, yeah. Does Gene Yakman come back for part four? He does. That's fucking crazy that was in his fallow period of he and Michael Caine were just like whatever yeah and it's canon right so like their whole thing is

hey, we'll pay the actors the big bucks to get them to come and be in this movie where then we won't put the money towards... Because the Nuclear Man is not from the comics, but they never use Bizarro Obama. I mean, Bizarro Man. That's a long story. What the hell was that? It's just a thing I came up with a long time ago. Bizarro Man, Mr. Mitsublik or whatever, Brainiac, Black Manta, who are the other like...

famous Superman villains. Yeah, they're a little rogues gallery that doesn't get used. And I mean, it's the two sort of like... genius things i think about superman too and just in terms of like if you're gonna do a sequel do something different That still feels familiar, but goes deeper. The idea of being like, Luthor is smart, but has no superpowers. teaming him up with somebody who has Zod, who has superpowers.

but doesn't have the understanding of how our Earth politics work. Or our watery surface. I'm assuming they must have water on Krypton because they certainly have ice. He can't believe that he's, uh, he's like, what is an interesting substance in this? But like, everything's crystals there. I don't know. I love like, The scenes between Luthor and Zod are like the funniest fucking scenes in the world because it's like... I was trying to think of a comparison. It's like... Luthor is like...

The smart dog trainer. And the bad guys are like the vicious dogs. And like he kind of can like lord over that he's like got human intelligence over these like dogs. But then. The dogs could like tear them apart if they wanted to. So it's such a little funny. Gene Hagman's so good in this one. He's in the prison and it has to be improvised. But when you. He just leans over to that other prisoner and goes, I want my Liberace records back. It's got to scratch.

How about that, huh? A Prisoner Liberace record joke? And then the second thing that I feel like is like, oh. They're not just making a sequel to make a sequel. They're using this as an opportunity to do interesting stuff. There was a time, I feel like more in the 70s, before Indiana Jones or Rambo or something that like the point of a you utilized a sequel as a way to just dig a little deeper into character so like with Godfather 2 it's sort of like okay from the first one Michael's thing was

he's feeling like he's losing his soul. Yeah. Then part two is going to be the full loss of the soul and put Michael through the... Empire Strikes Back, same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then Rocky, it's like... Right. hey the thing we know that was really kind of interesting about Rocky might have been the underdog stuff but it's also just him and Adrian that you love and so in part two we're going to even go it's not just going to be a repeat it's going to be like

Rocky and Adrian move in and they get a kit. Like, you're actually following stuff that you think is, like, for me, the best, and I wish... more sequels or whatever would kind of do something like this all of the like Clark Kent Lois Lane stuff in this is so good in that it's like an extension of the characters. And that like Lois, just taking the next step of Lois becomes a little bit more wise. It's so good as written. Yes.

I'm assuming this is Lester stuff, all this, because it wasn't Niagara. it was added after Donner was kicked out. So I feel like all that relationship was there. And then if Donner was to handle this the way he did the rooftop scene in the first movie, it would have been amazing. I know. Cause like, I love it just from the very beginning, their first scene, they set up that really great triangle between two people, which is like kind of cool where it's like,

He says something about... Clark says something about Superman. Lois goes a little jealous, Clark. Yeah. And then... Clark gets a little bit of hope that maybe Lois isn't into Superman and maybe she's into Clark, but then she clarifies like, no, you're just a friend. And I thought it was funny that it's like...

You've heard of the friend zone. This is the phantom friend zone that she puts Clark in. But then you get this kind of cool little triangle that then gets sort of... paid off in this awesome way when Clark gets his ass kicked at the diner. And he's like, I just want the man I fell in love with. And you see in Clark's eyes, I know. I know you love Superman. I know. I wish I could go back to it. It's such a... And then...

Then it becomes really cool in part three with Lana. I mean, in the same way that it's like... Oh, Superman could have been a dick if not raised for these beautiful Ma and Pa Kent people who are salt of the earth. This is like one of my favorite notions, heartwarming in the Superman mythos is like, Lois likes Superman. Lana likes Clark. That's right. And Lana really is kind of like, I could take or leave Superman. He's kind of a showboat, but I like Clark. He can have...

Both. Because he has two personalities. Well, that's the most beautiful moment in Superman 2 for me is when... Superman steps into the, like, power loss little thing, and then he steps out as, like, oh, no, when Lois says, calls him out and was like, I know you're Superman in the honeymoon suite and he takes off, he has his glasses off and he finally admits that he is Superman. Bye, going. Yeah, just a little push How would you spend 200 million pounds?

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Superman becomes like more gentle he becomes like sweet it's like such an awesome choice that it's not like when he gets discovered then he becomes macho Superman it's like he becomes who he really is which is this sort of like Like when she's like, I think maybe... you unconsciously more heart than mind sort of messed up there and wanted to tell me like she's kind of like doing like Freudian stuff of like I think maybe you intentionally tripped Superman so you'd reach in and grab the glasses

because you're battling this idea of whether you have to tell me or not. So you just made the decision for yourself. And then Superman's like, Yeah. That could be. It's like a guy becoming sensitive and being like, yeah, maybe there's unconscious things I do that get in the way of myself. It's so good. Even when he gets beat up in the diner and his acting is so real, but then juxtaposed with Rocky the bully.

It's so strange. Is that his name? Rocky. His name's Rocky. His real name is Pepper. That guy. That actor. What? I know. At first I thought it was Dick Miller. He does have Dick Miller properties. And I looked it up. His name's Pepper or something. So when he got cast...

They decided, they're like, well, this means pepper. We got to bring pepper and this means pepper. I, yeah, all of the... clark giving up his powers i mean we talked about like that there's always kind of like a couple moments in these superman movies that are like scary or traumatizing when you're a kid oh yeah superman get his ass kicked in that diner is like it's and there's blood you know yes there's blood

And it's like rattling and like, if you saw your dad get beat up, like if your dad got into an argument at a restaurant and got his ass kicked and your family's like watching your dad. And what's weird is that he's like, Not dressing super nerdy like Clark Kent. He's got a Harrington windbreaker jacket on and he doesn't, I don't think he has his glasses on, right? Yeah. But he's like business casual Superman. And you've just had the Clark Clark.

first line of like, I didn't see that I was reading Dickens. You know? So funny. It's just, it is, you've got three versions of him in this movie. Yes, that's true. That's true. You're reading Dickens, the like windbreaker guy in Superman. When he steps out of the like power loss.

pot or whatever which changes his clothes for him well that's what i was gonna say the clothes that he wears is so funny this like white shirt tucked into jeans i'm like okay so it's not clark and it's not this is like the yeah like i immediately thought When he steps out, Lois was just like... So Superman can never come back? Is that what you're saying? Also, when she says, I'm going to go change to something more comfortable.

So many things run through my mind. Small thing being like, how does she know where to go do that? Yeah, do you have an wardrobe there? But isn't she thinking like, pardon my French, I'm about to get fucked by Superman. What are the physical implications of that? Is it going to blow my mind in a great way? What's going to happen when a Superman... bets you down. It's like...

There's some real, I would think some real concern there. Yeah. Even biologically. Right. If they copulate. The thing that anybody probably thinks before is like, hey, what if there's an accident? What if I get... If somebody gets pregnant here. Because you've got to think that's some potent sperm. And whether you're ovulating or not, it's going to find its way to that egg. Yes, life will find a way with the Superman jizz.

And yeah, is my baby going to come out half green? I know. Is my baby going to come out like holding a green crystal in its hand? I don't know what's up with this dude. Yeah, but that when he... When he comes back to the diner, though, after he gets his powers, like... Um, that is like the most satisfying thing in the world. I mean, I love that. Like they don't do too many like, um, shots of like, The camera's down on the ground looking up.

But there's a moment when Clark is going to go over and kick this guy's ass. It's like Richard Donner, because he shot all the diner stuff too. Richard Donner did? Yes. Really? So Richard Donner shot the... All the... Any stuff with Gene Hackman in it. Yeah. All the... Keep talking. The diner stuff. the all the stuff in the white house uh no thank you um i took a picture of Yeah, with the... With Zod.

The fight on the moon is Donner. Really? That surprises me. Oh, really? Because I feel like the floating, flying stuff has more of the feel of the first one. I guess it's more, maybe for me it's more... The cinematography doesn't look... Well, that's like a true like match them up because the beginning of the guy sitting in the like thing who's getting information and looks out and sees.

that's Lester. And then once they go out of that and then they're on the surface of the moon, that's Donner. So even in the sector... The guy who's in the little space capsule? No! That's Dak from Empire Strikes Back. The guy that Luke's co-pilot in the snow speeder that's like, I feel like I could take on the whole empire by myself. This movie is full. You like sitting in chairs and pods. I know. It's full of Star Wars actors, Bond actors.

Shane Rimmer's in this, who's in a couple of Bond actors. Who is he in the Superman 2? He's the main guy at Houston that's talking to Dak. okay and he's a canadian actor and just i say again if you could travel back in time and be an American or Canadian, go to England in the early 80s, you would have worked in some of the biggest movies ever. John Ratzenberger. The Hotel Bellhop is Anthony Schur, who's like the playwright. He's like a playwright extraordinaire and actor.

He's in Shakespeare in Love. Gold Leader from Star Wars is the... I'm trying to remember who he was. Was he a prison guard? And he's also Reynolds in Force 10 from Navarone. Hell yeah! Yeah. the newscaster is the your sorcerer's ways vader that guy the general in that town is the top man guy from raiders Top men. Top men.

That's where I recognized him from. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, who else? Oh, man, what a heartbreaker that Porkins isn't in any of the Superman movies. I know. Lobot, of course, is in the opening of this again. Any, yeah, any other Bond actors that pop up that you recognize in Superman too? Because, yeah, I mean, and then, yeah, you mentioned him, John Ratzenberger. He gets to sit at a little desk in Empire. He gets to sit at a control panel, right? No, he's in Hoth.

He's in the briefing that Leia gives to the school. What was his circumstance? Why was he in England in those years? he's such a like salt of the earth middle American I know what brought him over to do Clifton James there is another Bond actor who's the cop from and he's from Live and Let Die and the man with the golden gun is like this

Very controversial racist cop. Oh, so he's playing the same like sheriff type. He's toned down in Superman 2 compared to what he's involved in. It's funny though. I thought like... in the same way that, you know, People go shoot in Vancouver or Atlanta to get a tax rebate. I'm like, in the 70s, There must have been a tax rebate on...

If you put a southern sheriff with a... dweeby deputy at your side you get like a 10 million dollar tax rebate like on your budget because like they're everywhere it's crazy it starts in live and let die for And then, yeah, Smokey and the Baronet, this. I mean, there's some sort of... push-pull between representation and I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right castigation of like

The people below the Mason-Dixon line will get to see their southern sheriff. It must be, yeah. But the people above the Mason-Dixon line will get to see them treated like... Get to laugh at them. Yeah, and they'll get their comeuppance. Yeah. And it is fun. seeing Zod and those guys fuck up that hillbilly redneck sheriff's car and stuff. Shot in the south of England. Yes, yeah. I mean, that's also just like... one of those just uncanny valley things I love about these Superman movies is that

There might not be more an American figure than Superman. I know Superman lives to help the world, but he... Landed from Krypton into America in Kansas. And I mean, his colors are red and blue and he fights for the American way. This guy is America. That these movies are so European and like Canadian. English big vibes. The little kid in the town. Oliver fucking twist. That kid's accent. Daddy, daddy. Let daddy, let my daddy down. Let my daddy go.

Please, sir. Yes, sir. More, sir. Let my father down in this town of Houston, Texas. Papa. And I am in Mobile, Alabama. The actors all kind of, the geography all has this kind of like Euro feel. But then like... The look, it just has this kind of like... PBS late night on a Saturday night kind of like cinematography. They did shoot some New Yorkic series and they shot in Banff, Canada.

a lot of this mountain stuff they shot clearly the town I mean the heartland Kansas stuff is all like Edmonton like is that right yeah it's crazy that like well you know it's like I guess Canada also has wheat fields and stuff but it looks amazing but the biggest giveaway of that small town is the sky it's that gray gloomy english sky and it's not to say we don't have those things here but you can it's crazy how you can tell it's just like you can always tell

when something's shot in Los Angeles because of the sky. Yes. It's not just the trees. It's the shadows. There's something about it. It's the quality of light. I mean, it's the same thing. I mean, I love Full Metal Jacket, but like once they're in that like dreary kind of in the second half, I'm like, those are some British skies, baby. You can't tell me different. But yeah, the way those movies like... Yeah, they just have a...

It is like if it had been filmed in America by an entirely American cast and crew, these movies would just have such a different... vibe and I love the vibe of this like weird two tastes together because By the time you get to Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, it's so CG filtered, it doesn't look like America either. Yes. Maybe James Gunn's version will have that, but I would love to see a movie that is on location and shot.

in a metropolis that... feels that way i don't know yeah like how the nolan movies are in chicago or uh What are the two other? Philadelphia, Pittsburgh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Los Angeles downtown. They shot in downtown. Oh, yeah. And Dark Knight Rises. I mean, I love... Yeah, that would be...

Definitely cool to see a sort of New York, a real... I guess the first movie has it. Yeah. But... Oh, so the stuff that Donner shot Lex Luthor in prison and escape and then him in the Fortress of Solitude. The three supervillains on the moon. The fight at the end or all the Fortress of Solitude stuff? It couldn't have been because the Susanna York stuff is in there, right? Yeah, when the Fortress of Solitude has Gene Hackman in there. Okay. But then even within that...

there's lesser stuff. You can kind of tell, too, with Marco Kidder's face. Christopher Reeve said she had dental work or something. Yeah, but that's in quotes. I don't know if he's... Yeah. Or if she had something else done. But, yeah. And even within that Fortress of Solitude scenes, you'll like... Like in the final, final moment when Superman's talking to Luthor about, like, you snake, I knew I couldn't trust you and you'd give the secret to Zod if I told you it.

Like, in the same sentence, it'll go back and forth between Gene Hackman's actual recorded dialogue with his own voice and then the, like... I mean, I don't know if you can tell the impersonation they brought into lupus things. I was thinking that, again, a Bond comparison. In the summer of 1981... If you bought a ticket for Your Eyes Only and Superman 2, you would be given the gift of two scenes with bad guys. Played by... Bad body double. So like Dr. Blofeld at the beginning.

You know, the stuff with Blofeld is like... It's not an actor. It's like a body double. And a body double that doesn't quite match any Blofeld you've really seen. No. He's got a neck brace on for no... And he's leaner and taller. Same in a wheelchair. Same with this Luthor. Like when they do... most noticeably when they're like on the little like snow thing going through the tundra, you can tell that's like not Gene Hackman's body. And along with bad body, double bad.

Bad actors, not even like good actors doing crummy voiceover, it's bad actors doing crummy voiceover of like, Miss Teschmacher, we gotta get out of here. Too sweet. You know, it's just like a weird... It's all kind like... Who cares? I can get it done at any cost or at no cost.

And let's make it, I mean, it sounds like one of the, and Brantley's knows one of the big disagreements between Richard Donner and the Salkinds was like, and Spangler was like the. Humor. Yeah. And this like wit.

difference between wit and slapstick that also seems like the thing that like the um the producers are just not getting which is like clearly i know you think It's such a misunderstanding of what the appeal of the first movie was, which was like, people are going into it thinking, oh, this is just a comic book. this is just going to be like the old 50s show. But then you sit down and you're like, oh, Lois Lane is a dimensional character and the cinematography looks like 70s movies.

So then, even though you have proof, that that choice works in your favor. They still want to go the camping route. It's crazy. It's really wild. Wouldn't you just love to see... I know we have the Donner cut, but I mean the finished version of what a Donner cut of this movie. Donner's version of... of the Zod trio.

yeah in full would have been amazing it's uh and you can see Zod's best lines are in the Donner cuts of the Tom Mankiewicz scripted lines directed by Richard Donner. Because he... Which, Terrence, why am I? Terrence Stamp. I called him Terrence Howard last time, I think. Oh, I didn't know that, but like Terrence Stamp. he's like the MVP of this movie. I think like, cause those lines, if you read them, you could under, you could see how they could be delivered by.

an unbright not sophisticated actor would just do them arch yeah but he delivers them in a way that he doesn't necessarily He's a, it's like what makes a good bad guy. Like he doesn't think he's a bad guy. Right. So like that line, this like Tom Mankiewicz scripted Richard Donner directed line of the like, I mean, it's so good, but like. Why would you say these things when you know that I have to kill you?

A bad villainy actor would go, why would you say these things when you know that I could kill you? like he doesn't do it that he does it as like a real like

Wait a minute, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, Luther. Why are you saying these things when you know I can kill you? Or that part when he's like, so-and-so has come here to do this, and he's like, well who's this imbecile it's so great his acting I really love I love that trio so much I love Sarah Douglas had such a crush on her I love her delivery and when non first succeeds with the laser eyes and he does that little pursed lip smile to Zod where he goes

Almost like a Cosby smile. I want to stand up and... when he got I mean when he first does the little laser lights and he can't make them go like he tries to it's such a brilliant choice and it just comes back and it retracts it's like

when you're trying to pee and you can't, and it just a little comes up. What was up with also, like, I feel like this, trope maybe has kind of fallen to the wayside of the like um jaws from the bond movies like the non-speaking gentle gentle baddie like gentle big guy yeah like people fucking ate that up at the time they sure did that's what's so weird there's just so many

Tonal and comedic and then actor crossovers between this and Bond. And if you want to see Nan, another crossover of the actor who plays Nan in a Tom Mankiewicz scripted movie. Dude, drive right up to Dragnet and enjoy. Because he's like one of the bad guys who works for Christopher Plummer. Does he talk much?

No, he's the guy who's like, yeah, making sure that they don't get into the porto factory and stuff like that. He was a boxer. Oh, was he? In real life, yeah. That's a good name for a boxer.

Irish boxer. Now... Oh, I just also want to say with the diner stuff of Clark Kent giving up his powers. Matt, have you ever seen Last Temptation of Christ? A long time ago. So the thing that's like the last 20 minutes of last temptation of Christ and the thing that probably is what was most controversial is that when like Jesus is dying on the cross, He has like a vision given to him by Satan. It's like Satan is the person who's giving the last temptation of Christ.

He's basically saying like, Jesus, I know you're dying on this cross right now, and this is horrible. I'm going to give you one last temptation. I'm going to give you a vision of what your life could be like if you say, I'm not the son of God. I'm just a regular guy. And then I'll let you live this life as a non-divine.

figure in the real world and then Christ Willem Dafoe has this kind of like vision where he is off the cross and he marries Mary Magdalene and they have sex and then they have kids and it's like, oh. I could have an easy life. I could give this up. And you know, I was raised Catholic. I think this is like the most beautiful movie in the world because at the end of it,

It's a very devout movie where Jesus goes like, I know I could do that and I'm choosing this, the harder road, you know, because I'm not just a human. I got other responsibilities. This movie kind of works like A Last Temptation of Superman, where he gets to have the moment to kind of be like, oh, what would it be like to be mortal and to get to experience love with the woman I love?

and then he yeah he gets his ass kicked in the diner but i do like to imagine like oh superman got to see what it would be like and he still shows yeah he really did not just a vision yeah do you think the Silver. Shape. in Superman's bed. I feel like those would be so sticky and hot. It's like playing in a tent. I think, yeah, because what you're picturing is the Earth version of that, but those are some Kryptonian, you know. count shape.

Oh, the thread count. Yeah, the Kryptonian thread count sheets. So they don't get like too sweaty or slimy. No, man, that stuff. that stuff is not only stain resistant but it breathes that's some good stuff if you can get your hands on that I highly recommend probably the same people who made a suit which has these like really great I mean they can't stop pit stains but uh they can uh Because I do love that like comparing contrast between like American.

gaudiness of the niagara falls honeymoon suite yeah with the vibrating bed they're like that's d class a yeah The Kryptonians know how to have a honeymoon suite and it seems like cool silver bed. With your mom watching or at least listening.

yeah do you turn the crystal away with your mom on it just to make sure she doesn't i hope so man oh my god um the uh uh So we've talked a lot about a lot of stuff here, but it's cool that, you know, the... The... Saul Bass Warner Brothers logo. Yeah. They stopped using that in 1984 with Swing Shift. Okay. I love that you know this. Swing Shift is like a 1940s World War II movie. Wow.

As a way to kind of like... go back to retro it they brought back the old which they've been doing in later days with the Saul Bass one like in the nice guys that's true that's true I love that Warner Brothers will let them Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite Warner Brothers treatments is... In Benjamin Button, they have the seal made out of a bunch of buttons. That seems kind of dopey. Excuse me. Bless you.

You don't have to be quiet while I'm waiting. Normally, you would say Gesundheit, but with Superman, I guess it's Gesundheit. but that means that all of these Warner Brothers the first three Christopher Reeve movies. all have the Saul Bass logo. And the fourth doesn't? Oh, because it's canon. That's right. But I think Warner Brothers distributed the canon, so you do get the seal then in front of that. But like, that...

I know we've talked a lot about the Saul Bass, Warner Brothers longer. I mean, you got it for your thing and it rules. But like, where have we seen white? On black, on red. It's a little nationalist party there. I mean... People who want power and strength know something happens at the eye with the red and white. I mean, like, the Saul Bass logo knows it. The Nazi party knows it. You think the Saul Bass logo knows it? I mean, I'm just unconsciously... Okay, yeah. He might not be going...

the Nazi party used these colors and so I'm going to. It's just more like whatever somebody's understanding of color theory and just be like, oh. This ain't no purple and yellow. Red and white announces... comes into the room and it's like look at me yeah because the other one and it's probably like the biggest force in the world

Coca-Cola, my man. Right. They also understand the power of her. Jesus. Coca-Cola, who owns Fanta, which was a Nazi soda company. Really? Yeah, Fanta. Well, then what's that mean when he throws him into the Coca-Cola sign at the end? Well, getting into that, the fact that the paid product placement was one thing Coca-Cola, but Marlboro and Cutty Sark. For kids. It's amazing. And Lois didn't smoke in the first one. She was, I believe, contractually obligated.

To smoke in this. I mean, yes, it's a kid, as Brantley Palmer said in his notes. This movie, ostensibly for kids, has product placement for cigarettes and liquor. I imagine at the end we're going to have a big sign for like Hustler magazine. I know. Oh my God. A big skull like chewing tobacco side. I love that Gene Hackman calls Zod at one point, my fullness. That's not even like a real thing. you know, there's my, your honor. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, the, um,

Just going through these notes here, Matt. And we've talked about a lot of them already. I had a question. Godfather Part 2 was the first time that Part 2 was ever used in a movie. and Francis Ford Coppola in 1974 I guess when it came out had to fight for it because the studio thought people would think it meant It's footage from the first one that didn't get used. And we're just calling it part two to kind of like, and he was like, no, no, people will get it. And then.

Obviously, part two, part three became its own thing. But I have a question. I don't have an answer, but... Es... No, I guess Rocky 2 came out before it. The Roman numeral? But when did the part get dropped off? And it just becomes 2 and 3. Because Superman, when it came up and I saw Superman 2 on the screen, I'm like... Was that still a thing people were just getting their minds around? Yeah. At the time? Like a part two was so...

Big seven years before that, then just a two has to kind of be. Yeah. The sting two. I don't know. Good question. Bad News Bears and Breaking Training. There's no two or part two in that. It's interesting. Friday the 13th keeps the part. Halloween doesn't. Right, yeah. And then Nightmare on Elm Street, they don't have, well, there's no parts because Freddie doesn't have hair to even have. That's probably how they determine it.

Because Jason does have hair. Yeah, but Michael does have hair. Yeah, I guess. It doesn't have a part, though. There is no way to look cool, even if you're Terrence Stamp. Just blowing wind for a long time. Oh, no. No. Yes. Oh, I felt so bad for them, especially for how long that sequence is. Yeah, they're like, so what are we, Terrence Stamp is like, so what are we doing today, Dick?

He's like, we need some more shots of you blowing. What? We've done a week of this. Yeah, you'll see later. We need some real lots of seats of you. Is it going to be good? That's a good stamping. Not necessarily, no. You're probably going to look pretty silly doing it. Harmon. Oh, silly. I'm in. They did reuse the Daily Planet exterior footage again. I don't know. Not again, just for the first time.

And when they get inside that daily planet for the first time, that's when I can see... For the fight, you mean? Oh, in the beginning of the... Superman shows up and he finds out about the thing in Paris. And the guy's shaving with an electric razor, and then there's also another guy shaving with an electric razor later on. That's really weird. That's how much journalists care. They slept all night at the Daily Clip. Lester loves business. Yeah. He loves bits. cinematographically alike.

It just looks different. Like, the first one, you can just put them next to each other and see the difference. Like, the first one I love has that, like, whatever that hazy. I know. That's what I miss. Smeary. buzzed out gauzy diffusion um like it goes and now in the lester stuff you can just see it's so sharp yeah the colors are really kind of like

strong and primary, not this kind of like a little kind of washed out. I do prefer the cinematography of the first one to the second. Night and day, 100%. That's why I was surprised to hear Darn a Shot the Moon stuff because even that doesn't look...

Yeah. Superb to me. Yeah. And this isn't a nitpick. It's just more of a, oh, this is an interesting thing about how Superman works. But like. It is funny that like... Superman doesn't find out about the French terrorist, the Eiffel Tower terrorist attack until he gets into the office. And Perry White and Jimmy Olsen tell him about it. And Perry White's already laid out headlines. He's laying out the headlines. So he's known for so long he can lay out the headlines.

Lois has known so long that she's hopped a plane. The Concorde. The Concorde had traveled to Paris and is already in Paris reporting it. Similar to like when... Clark Kent is in the Fortress of Solitude and Zod's doing this thing and it's not until he turns on the TV and finds out of it. I love that like an audience member in 2025 watching these movies.

has more power than Superman because you could just look at your phone and be like, oh shit, there's a terrorist attack. You'd look up the New York Times app or you'd go on CNN and you're like... oh there's a terrorist attack right now and you know it sooner than superman who has to wait until he gets into an office and tell him but also it's just like oh Superman's powers are limited by his own knowledge. And if he's not there to know something's happening, he doesn't like... Here!

terrorists having a conversation later far away in Paris like going like oh they're yeah it's global awareness global consciousness of being like I can feel in my gut right now some terrorists in France are up to no good. I'm going to go to Paris. It's fast and loose. Even the fact that Luthor can do like a dog whistle to him in the first movie.

In Superman Returns, remember, he's like floating up in space just listening to everybody. Yes. It's, I think, as needed. Patriot Act Superman. But yeah, that Superman wouldn't... knows stuff until he's told about it. Well, it's strange that he has pure physical powers due to... It's not magic. They kind of couch it as science. He just has a regular brain. Right. He's not super smart. It's the difference of the...

the environments of the two planets that makes him strong. And the fact that he happens to be a good person. Right. And that's the Ma and Pa Kent. When he flies to... Paris. I love the like not real world fan, like the fantasy stuff I love in this movie of like, don't get hung up on the reality is like the details of like. When he starts running, his suit disappears, and that stuff is cool. That effect is great. Was that Donner?

I don't know. I don't know, because he didn't do the Paris sequence, so maybe not, but I love that. Yeah. And then... Uh... Then he goes to Paris. You got the... modern sort of terrorist stuff. Superman throwing out the bomb into space. So then they get back to Metropolis after the Eiffel Tower scene. And this is a moment of...

This is Lester's folly. This would not be in any type of Richard Donner movie, but it's the thing that drives me bananas, Matt, for the rest of these Superman movies. Not part four, but two and three, especially three, and I love three. But like the logic of when Superman as Clark gets hit by the taxi cab while he's crossing the street. This is why this shit annoys me, Matt. Like. Superman. has the superhero, the super ability,

To know that a taxi is approaching him. Like he has the awareness of like, taxi coming. If I stay here, it's going to hit me. Yeah. Okay. So for the purpose of. Being Clark. Being Clark and communicating to the world that you're Clark to keep up this disguise. You're going to fucking ruin a guy's taxi cab? Or just have people question, like, how did that man do this dent into this car? Okay, so that's my second point. It's like, so you're doing this to seem like Clark.

But that means ruining a guy's taxi cab and possibly paralyzing the driver. So it's like, what are you after here, Superman? ruining property hurting people this doesn't seem super this is all to communicate your car can't like just trip a little bit in the street like on your shoelaces like you don't have to go and then yes

Okay, so you're doing that to be Clark. Well, this is the stupidest fucking way to make people think you're Clark because then all they're gonna see is Wait, Clark Kent walked away from a taxi cab that he smashed the front of and walked away without a scratch on himself? It's so weird, but it is because Richard Lester... just wants the visual gag of the Clark's a doof who would get hit by a cab, and then the extra gag of like, and then look at the taxi cab.

Richard Donner would not do that. It's so fucking annoying. It's so baffling that the producers didn't realize the success of that first movie and just went for what they originally wanted in the first place. Drives me crazy.

I like the... Offbeat choice, though, of all this freshly squeezed orange juice stuff that Lois likes. Offbeat choice is right. That it gets to then. I mean, I remember this in college when I watched Superman 2 with my friends. We were howling that when they get to Niagara Falls, those ladies, hot dogs and orange juice. The two greats. And she's just smoking and not ashing her cigarette. Smoking, eating hot dogs and drinking orange juice in this woman's mouth.

It just also feels, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it feels sort of like Margot Kidder at the time, you know, because she was going through a lot at this point and was having a lot of financial struggle. Yeah, I think Lois Lane... Being a smokestack of this is maybe torn from the headlines of Kidder's life. Superman's not great at insults when he comes back to Rocky and the Diner.

Do you remember what he says? I love that line. I've never seen garbage eat garbage before. I know, but it's just like, God, you're so Superman, and then this is what you got. He thinks it's cool. Yeah. But yeah, that moment of, oh, when I was in that moment when I was saying like the camera underneath him, when he's like walking and you see this kind of like awesome shot of like Clark walking through the diner.

with the camera looking up in the ceiling above his head you're like whoa he's gonna um it is like if richard donner like made like death wish like getting to see like vigilante superman looking right on so good Um...

The arm. Yeah, I think you can tell the difference between the Lester and the Donner. moon stuff because of the patches on the astronauts like oh it changes they change yeah interesting and also there's a kind of a weird mix because you get the liberace record gay joke in the donner scene oh is that a gay joke oh i think so Just that Luther and that mate were... Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just kind of making a joke about prisoners.

It's prison rules. We fuck guys in this prison and hey. Just because it's Liberace? I think so. Maybe I could be wrong. But why Liberace? Yeah, I'm not sure. That's why it all struck me as an improv, but it probably isn't because they would have had to mic that guy. And Luthor, in retrospect, in the first one, feels like a...

kind of Liberace style. Like he's got these like big rings he puts on and kind of gaudy outfit and wigs and stuff. Yeah. Um, the, uh, uh, When he escapes from the prison, I love the, like, um... Disneyland ride. projection screen like i know the projection screen that shows them in the cell and then the guy walks in and then it beams on his back oh yeah i was that's that's uh gold leader that's oh that's yeah i was thinking that's the um fun of... I uh uh uh Like, do you think the cellmate...

who are like near that cell. It's like, um, that operates like a menu screen on a DVD. Where you're like sitting there and you're like, oh my God, okay, I'm going to run the five minutes and I have to sit here while it reboots. I just, when did they shoot up a camera? Set up a camera and film that long secrets of themselves. Rod and Jeffrey Unworth from the first movie to shoot it. The moment when Superman picks up Zod and the music kicks in.

is there are so many moments that are emblematic of this movie because it gives you that oh that rush but then you notice the music isn't great again and he's got pit stains although I guess maybe that was Donner but then

I'll save it to the end. What? I'll save my last note. Oh, oh, oh. Because it's about the end. Yes, that end is just a real cool... Unfortunately, I have to... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought... One that I had was, and this is some real hack comedian territory, the thing of like, they don't notice just because Clark's wearing glasses. Yeah. But I do think like Clark...

You should just put on big ears or something. Or glasses with eyes that are crooked. Just wear the Groucho Muscat glasses. That would be good. I like the... all that stuff of Lois being like, I'm going to call you on it and jump into the river. And then he has to figure out a way to make it seem like Superman didn't come in and save her. It's all good stuff.

V. when the guys the baddies land on earth yeah that's one of my favorite sequences the water walking water walking and like the guy who um I mean, this is a total Richard Lester style gag. The guy who like is drinking coffee and then based on what he sees, he like dumps his coffee out. I was hoping that that guy would just then follow.

those baddies for the rest of the movie with a cup of coffee and anything that happened like when she like fries the snake with her eye beans just go back to that guy again like he's in Superman 3 apparently And also, this is the same thing as For Your Eyes Only, which, you know, it started in...

The Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker, and For Your Eyes Only. There's an actor and a background actor that happens to be present every time Bond does something and he's drinking wine and he goes, it's the same guy for three movies. Then the section of the movie, which I think is really cool, where they're cutting back and forth between Zod and his group.

raising hell yeah um and then going back to clark giving up his powers because you just get this like i like both stories i like seeing what's happening but then the tension of going back and forth you're like Oh my god, Clark has no idea that these guys are on their way. Yeah, but the...

When they... Go to the Fortress of Solitude, and they do a little Can You Read My Mind flying to the thing. Yeah, but even that music. Yeah, the green crystal thing, though. I read online somebody once articulated this way better than me, but it is such a weird choice.

To have the crystal that gives him power to be the color of kryptonite. It's confusing. It is, yeah. Very. Because the thing that's supposed to make him strong is the same color as the thing that makes him weak. It's mixed up. I don't know if it's color-based. It's that. Kryptonite is the meteoroid that hits Earth from the explosion of the planet. But just on a... If you want the audience to track this, just don't make it the same color and consistency as the kryptonite that hurts them. Yeah.

If you're Lewis Lane, what's the best way? to decorate the Fortress of Solitude to make it cozy in your mind. Like, if she, you know, she's like, I think this needs more of a feminine touch. She's got plants all over her house. Plants would be good. I like plants. That place does need to get a little more cozy. Yeah.

I mean, the coziest stuff for me is when the bad guys are like flying across the sky and stuff, that cobalt blue that I mentioned. I know. That's very cozy. Well, remember in their house in Krypton has no decor. Fortress of Solitude has no decor. I was watching Andor. There's no decor in any of the houses. No ant decor. I know. What is the deal with sci-fi? Have a painting. Yeah. You can still paint. Minimalism. Yeah. be some pack rats um the

Oh, I noticed in the Houston when the face-off is happening, I freeze-framed and took a picture. There's some movie posters up and like, Heaven Can Wait is playing. Oh, really? Did Perry? White have a picture of Bill Cosby in his office? Did he? Can someone confirm that? Please. Or was it someone else? It was strange. He was in two seasons of I Spy. The... mommy Oedipal yeah when Superman steps into that thing that takes away his powers

Whatever the effects they used to show that word. What is off with that? A throbbing light. Then it becomes like a heavy metal album cover. What is off with that? That is so weird. that's a weird choice the style changes in this movie are insane um I like them altering Mount Rushmore. Yes, but then choosing to just do away with Lincoln. Yeah, I was going to say, guys, if you have a fourth head, like,

I don't know, make it Satan or something. Just like freak people out, you know? Make it Darth Vader. Absolutely. The... The switcheroo. I'm going to the White House. Going into the diner. Talked all about that. The...

I'll run to my last note. Yes, please. Oh, no, no, all good. Yeah, we'll rate this. Yeah, sorry, listeners, that I have this hard out, but it couldn't be helped. The thing that made that I loved in the last movie, the way it ended with him breaking the fourth wall.

and smiling at the camera yeah which somehow was was just like right up to the edge but not too much and this feels so gross and cynical just reusing it and as if to say like we had a we we did it again didn't we and it just feels like no assault kinds you can't

You don't get to ring that bell twice. That's true, Matt. It's really shitty. It's a bad way to end. It'd be like getting the same birthday present two years in a row and be like, you liked it the first time. It's like, yeah, but I already have it, so just give me a second one. Yeah, and I know people have the problem with... Thank you.

that he gets all these crazy powers once they're in the fortress of solitude. Like he uses the kind of like weird cellophane thing and that he disappears and reappears and stuff. That doesn't quite bother me, actually, because I think of it as like home turf advantage.

I guess, but I think of it more as just producers gone wild. I mean, it definitely was not they added it after Donner. They had to figure out a way to end this movie and defeat them without reversing the world because they used that for the first movie. And then the kiss, too. I know people...

I think the kiss is like disappointing that wipes her memory because the acting and the characters are so amazing up at the bar. I mean, this is the last time Marco Kidder gets to do real acting after this. It's diminishing returns. But when she's saying like, don't you know how hard this is that I have to come into work? It's so good that that's what's disappointing about the kiss is that like they basically bring them back to. the beginning of the movie and that's just not

I don't care about the logistics of whether that would really work. It's more just like, it's disappointing the end of a movie that the characters are back where they were at the beginning, especially after everything they've been through. Yeah. I... I like the idea that she says,

She repeats the line that he says, just tell me that you love me. She says it again and repeats it to him at the end. And I see it as him kissing her and wiping her memory. That is how Superman's going to show that he loves her. He's like, I realize I'm like... ensnared you in this crazy thing yeah i think so so my expression yeah i think that's pretty great um okay all right what do you want to rate this baby i'll rate it we gave 13s to superman i'll give it a

Eleven. Eleven. I'll do... I'll do a ten point five. And let's just give an acknowledgement that with the crummy Gene Hackman lines that they have to loop in later on his body. when they drop his body double in the Fortress of Solitude, they have an ADR line that goes, what, you haven't heard of parachutes? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. All right, guys. Sorry that this one was slightly shorter. It's all good. I have to run off, but we'll be back for Superman 3, just like this movie says.

Superman will return. Superman, Matt, and Paul will return for Supes 3. And then Superman 4, then Hero at Large. Bye-bye. Bye. go to patreon.com How would you spend 200 million pounds? I'm Sorrel and I'm back for season two of the insanely lavish Rich Beyond My Wildest Dreams podcast where hilarious guests

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