The Missing Women

An Undeceptions Podcast. Well, welcome to With All Due Respect, where we discuss important questions with grace and respect. I'm Megan Powell-Dutrois. And I'm Michael Jensen. We were going to talk, if you pay any attention, we were going to talk about the birth rate, but then another conversation... I just want to be a grandpa, that's why.

Oh my goodness, I don't want that yet. Well, not that I'm going to be a grandpa. Anyway, but then another conversation, it's also about demographics has been going down and that caught our attention. So if you're all conscious of the online evangelical world... You'll have noticed that the phenomenon of more Gen Z men becoming interested in Christian faith has been getting talked about a lot. I mean...

A lot. We even talked about it. We talked about it. So, yeah, it seems to be there's a podcast episode or online article absolutely everywhere. We talked about an episode on Revival earlier this season. But alongside the celebration of that, there's also been sort of, I guess what I'll...

call a minority report, asking whether, on the other hand, Gen Z women are going missing from the church. We're going to explore that today, first with the help of Christine Jolly, who's at the coalface, so to speak, as a university group worker in Tasmania.

And then we're going to talk together about how to make sense of this conversation, which focuses on the experiences of different groups within the church, before finishing with a film about the first American saint, who just happens to have been a woman.

Be our guest, opening up the conversation to others. Christine Jolly is a senior staff worker with the University Fellowship of Christians, the AFES-affiliated group at the University of Tasmania, serving as community and fellowship groups overseer. She's been with the AFES for over six years and also teaches high school.

Visual Art and Christian Studies. Originally from America, it says originally American, but I think she probably still is American, but she now lives in Tasmania. She's got degrees in education and theology, and she's been here with us for almost 20 years. Well, welcomed with all due respect, Christine. Thank you. Lovely to have you with us. This is going to be really interesting because normally we're just asking...

the interview questions, but we're going to make this more of a panel between yourself and us as to our experiences with Gen Z women. But, of course, we're going to recognise that given your role, you've been dealing with a higher number than Michael and myself. Not that we haven't had quality ones that we're dealing with, Michael. No, they're fantastic. I actually live with two of them. Yeah, I live with one, so there you go.

Well, first up, there was a survey done by NCLS, National Church Life Survey, in 2022. which found that while Gen Z men were more likely to claim a Christian identity, Gen Z women and men were in Australia at that time engaging in religious practice at the same rate. So more Gen Z men. were saying they were Christian than Gen Z women. But in terms of going to church and so on, it was about the same. How does that bear out with other people's experience?

So in university work, I'm not observing a discrepancy in those who attend our public meetings. It seems quite equally half and half. Even down to our small group fellowship groups that I oversee, there are probably equal amounts of young men who attend and young women who attend. The differences might lie in motivations and expressions of how they identify as a Christian.

So why would a young man seek out the Christian group on the university campus in Hobart? Might be slightly different reasons that a young woman might. um there might be a lot of overlap but in my experience both young men and women are coming because they're looking for authentic faith expression, especially a faith expression that is grounded in the ancient faith and ritual and they're curious.

So both young men and women are drawn to the beauty of the ancientness of Christianity, and they're looking for a genuine relationship and belonging. So that's both of them. But where I've noticed among young women, more so those who engage with us in a more deeper level.

They're looking for the same thing, but they're also looking for a space where their intellectual and emotional questions have a safe space to be explored and where they can express themselves fully as a human in a faith community. Yeah, I myself haven't noticed any difference, I think, between young men and young women in terms of searching out faith or staying in the church, whatever. I know that certain churches around us...

seem to say that they're getting more young men, I suspect that myself as the senior pastor of my church perhaps doesn't attract a certain type of seeker. Is that a careful way of putting that? Maybe the curious? I certainly have women of all ages come and seek out my church, yeah. Yeah, we've got an evening service where I think people, most of the Gen Z...

People come, but it's not uniform. So, we have the sort of Gen Z, more, I would say, males kind of experimenting with our Book of Common Prayer robed liturgical service. But then we've got a whole bunch of women, young women in our choir who love singing in our choir, who are amazing.

And have really been coming through singing, through music. And then in the evening, it's been, again, there is the community or the relational thing. I don't think Gen Z is yet saying, I want a partner. We get certainly people in there sort of the gen. why are both men and women saying, look, perhaps the church is a better place than Tinder to find a partner? And I get that. That's not a high bar, but yes.

Yeah, yeah. Well, no, seriously, the whole online dating thing is horrible. And so, maybe I'm going to find a man who will respect me, you know, who will be- a person of good intentions in church. But the younger ones, we had a woman, for instance, turn up who said, look, I just saw this Instagram Bible verse. I went to a church school. I hated it.

I feel I had to come to church. She became a Christian, got baptized. So, it's that sort of thing where- What was the verse? I can't even remember. I mean, I don't think she even remembered, but she just said, I just felt like I had to come. We get these people who come. There was a woman who turned up.

who said, I watched Conclave. I think I mentioned it. He said, I watched Conclave. I have to come to church. So, there's a little bit of that. It's like the spirit of God is at play out in the community, turning people on to. There's something that they need to see. Well, what was really interesting too, in the same study, they found that the Gen Z women were less likely to see God as a personal God than men their age.

And they're also a lot less likely with men their age to agree that the Christian religion is good for society. So this is a really telling difference. So 37% of Gen Z men thought Christianity was good for society or the Christian religion is the way they phrased it, and only 17% of Gen Z women. Are you seeing that kind of difference play out? Christine? I am, absolutely. I noticed a few years ago when I was...

one of the leaders at our Canberra national training event. And for several years, my role has been to help facilitate the school leavers strand, which we call Strand 12. But essentially, it's helping the school leavers, young men and women who are 17, 18 years old, learn how to articulate a clear presentation of the good news in Jesus Christ. their story, their personal story intersects and aligns with that story.

So not so much just, hey, how to tell your testimony, but a clear understanding of what the good news is. And I had to stop the last year that we did it and actually take a break. and say, hey, we're going to take a break because I'm noticing something that we need to establish something as true before we move forward with the judgment of sin. And something that I was noticing was that it wasn't a given. that God is good. And if that's not the foundational understanding of...

who God is, where can there be good news? And so I took the group straight to God's own words and describing Himself in Exodus 34, 6-7 where He's He's passing by Moses, and in his own words, he describes himself as compassionate, gracious God, slow to anger. abounding in faithful love and truth, maintaining love to thousands.

of generations, forgiving iniquity, rebellion, and sin. And if that is your base standard, you can build on that. And the psalmists do all across the Old Testament, the New Testament. They almost quote verbatim God's own words here. Jonah.

uh famously uses it in anger because it's like i knew this i knew this about you um and it's a hilarious moment but also quite disturbing um but i think We cannot take for granted that the emerging generation has a foundational knowledge that God is good and that His intentions toward us are good and loving because perhaps in our current age there are

All throughout church history, we have emphasized different things in response to what's happening around us, historically, culturally, socially, as well as theologically, discussions that are going on. And I think we've neglected the goodness of God. And if that's the case, the church isn't expressing the goodness of God as God has revealed himself in his scriptures. It's not clear to young women that God is good because the church that they find themselves in doesn't appear to exemplify.

God's good characteristics. And so, what we're seeing is a lot of young women might find themselves quite quitting. Oh, wow. So, can I probe that just to clarify? Are you saying that people are saying that- They believe in God, but that they're uncertain whether he's good. Or is it that they hear the God that's declared by or represented by the Christian church as being a mean?

mean-spirited, judgmental God, and so therefore they're not buying into that. That can't be true. I think it's a little bit of both of it. And it could also be that there is... There might be an emphasis not so much on mean-spirited, but there might be an emphasis on... God is holy, and in His holiness, He must deal with sin. Sin must be judged. But I think what we're seeing in God's description of Himself is that sin does damage to God's creation.

The relationship that God has with His own creation that He loves, it does damage to each other. The humans do damage to each other, and they do damage to creation. And as a result, it is from his love. his compassion being slow to anger, his faithfulness, that he is compelled to act on it. That's the second part in verse 7, where he will not leave the guilty unpunished.

What I'm seeing is that perhaps in the church there has been a disconnect that we're seeing His justice and His act of judgment of sin. coming from His holiness alone rather than He is holy, absolutely, but God is also love and He is good and His judgment. The answer is yes. God is good. God is holy. God is just. And sin and death and affliction must end. I mean, that's a really important...

corrective for young women to be hearing if they're not feeling, you know, if the experience of God through churches or whatever is not that it's for the good, it's not for flourishing, that kind of thing. It's not a shalom. It's false too. It's false, yeah. It's just a lie. I've experienced, and let me say from the outset here, that I necessarily get a biased sample because being one of the only really higher profile evangelical female ministers in Australia.

women do get in contact with me to talk to me about their frustration. So I get a particular sample, right? But it's not so much that I hear Gen Z women saying, that Christian religion is bad for society, I suspect that if I was hearing more from people outside any connection with the church, that might be it. But from Gen Z women who are now in the church or at least have had some connection with the church in the past.

What I'm hearing from them constantly is they see society in general as misogynistic and that they think that a lot of the expressions of church that they've encountered. are also misogynistic, just like society, but have their own particular damaging take on that. Yeah, so that's... That's a kind of another take on it. It's a sort of different mix, almost verging on the connection that the Christian church sometimes has with what young women would see as aberrant political.

or kind of political figures that are dubious or don't seem to be pro-women, pro their interests. I thought I really was- taken by what Christine was saying there, because I felt like one of the things you can do in speaking in this way is actually lean into the actual felt experience that young women and young men, all of us in different ways have. of seeing how the world has gone wrong. And so instead of, in one sense,

pointing to the purity of God, which can seem petty if you're sort of saying, you know, God must destroy sin. And so for your single lie, you're being... cast into hell. That seems extraordinary or imbalanced. But if you point to the actual, if you can describe what they are seeing, which is- in terms of the way human beings have treated the environment, the way we treat the poor and the suffering, the way in which we…

You know, we have a corrupt and inauthentic leadership. If you can point to that, then... You contrast God's love and goodness to that. That's actually a more powerful method of connecting. And in any case, it seems to me more biblical. So it's kind of nice to find that actually the Bible. was actually richer in the first place than the way we've sometimes preached the gospel. Are you finding, Michael, yourself, that there is this kind of expression of...

doubt about the goodness of the church, if not God, amongst Gen Z women? Definitely. I mean, I don't have a lot of contact, I have to say, direct contact with. Gen Z women in my particular church. But I do, I kind of just, I think it's the bafflement that I get from...

the Gen Z women in my area that they would ever even consider coming to church if they weren't part of it. We haven't yet talked about those who are leaving or those who are in the church, but it's sort of like, well, clearly that's not, clearly I wouldn't go there. Clearly I wouldn't do that. And we have had a couple of people who have left.

One, not quite Gen Z, really Gen Y, but she said, a woman who said to me, it wasn't about her experience of our church, but it was an experience of, she said, oh, well, the church is clearly a misogynistic institution. And I can't, I don't want my sons to be part of that. And I asked her whether that was true of our particular church. And she said, no. So it wasn't true of her direct experience, but this was sort of mediated to her through.

her impression, rightly or wrongly, through the media, her impression of denominational wider Christianity and being bad for society. Well, you just mentioning, Michael, that we're sort of talking about... You're talking there about people don't even come in the door, but what about the women that are there that are either leaving or staying?

So, Christine, you're talking about, yeah, you've got about even numbers, right, of Gen Z women and Gen Z men. What's happening with those women? Why are they there? Why are they staying if they're staying? Or if you're seeing some leave, why is that? Well, I think being part of a para-turch organisation, it's a bit unique because we're not.

We're not the church. There's loads of avenues for both men and women to step into the space, to find relationship with other men and with other women and with each other. and also to have opportunities to explore ministry opportunities and roles that they wouldn't necessarily be available to them in their local church because they're still quite young. And also participating and leading in Bible studies and leading up front and praying up front and greeting people. So there's...

Anything is possible within university ministry. Maybe there's more of a disconnect in the different local churches where... Someone might be seen with suspicion if they start raising difficult questions in their small group Bible study at church, and they might be viewed as problematic. Why can't you just be content with the black and white answers? Why do you constantly have...

to bring these questions. Whereas in university ministry, that's our bread and butter. We love the questions. We love the pursuit of the... intellectual side as well as the exploratory side and relationship side of our faith.

So I hope that we're a safe space where we can explore those things. And I hope that, in my experience, we've been seeing young women drawn to us for that reason and stick with us. It's what happens beyond university where some... disengagement might happen so have you it's like that you've got some anecdotes or particular instances of people of women saying oh look

You know, I was always seen as the mouthy woman who was, you know, that girl who was always asking annoying questions. Why don't you just shut up and accept? Is that what they'll say to you? Yes. So, they'll say, like, I always have these questions, but I...

I stopped asking the questions quite quickly because it became apparent that they weren't welcome. And they might still go, but that's kind of what I was talking about, the quiet quitting. They might physically be present there, but they've checked out because they know it's not safe for them to ask those questions.

space how could i tell if a woman in my in my church is quiet quit do you think oh that's that's helpful so if she Probably more the extreme side of things is that she enters the church doors right before the first song starts and she leaves right before the last song has ended. She hasn't given up on Jesus, but she feels like the church body has given up on her because there's no place for her in the body of Christ. I talk to lots of young women who...

remaining in the church or remaining in faith but not going to church. But this is because of the love of Jesus and it's despite quite a lack of... In fact, the word I often get is I feel unsafe in the church. So a lack of comfort in the church but also. I'd really like to hear more about that. I think that what Christine's saying about the not being able to ask questions.

Or growing up, I think, with quite a positive, loving experience of church, that as they come into more young adulthood, they feel like they're being pressured to be a certain way. that there's a lot of stuff about their sexuality in terms of that purity culture stuff is happening. They suddenly discover that men and women aren't viewed equally. They feel silenced.

They discover that there's cover-ups going on. They ask questions and get shut down. So often this is experience, they've had like a really positive experience. in childhood and then as they come into high school, they start... having quite negative experiences, which kind of produce a type of almost cognitive dissonance about here's how I'm experiencing myself, but here's what I'm being told about myself and what I'm hearing about women. Is that what you're hearing as well, Christine?

Yes. And like Megan, I had a really great experience with the church growing up. And I don't have any complaints personally, so this isn't coming from some acts that I have to grind. It comes out of a deep love for the whole church. We flourish.

when men are doing well and when women are doing well. We saw in the 90s a particular bent toward, hey, we've got to get men in the door. And with this false... faulty wrong statistic that you know if we bring the dad into faith the rest of the family follows which has been famously debunked but Churches still are functioning that way with maybe the minister's application to the sermon is very male-centric. There are opportunities to serve in new and exciting ways that...

Young men are fast-trapped into and women are overlooked when they've been there longer and the leadership has known them longer and can attest to their piety. more so than this new man who has just come in and he's the new hotshot and everybody's fast-tracking him because we need more men in leadership, more men in leadership. If we've got men in leadership, more guys will come to faith.

I'm just not seeing those results. And as a result, we're pushing women off to the side and we're not caring for them as legitimate members of the body of Christ, as well as we could be to see all of the kingdom of God flourishing. The interesting thing you're saying about that too is that I've got some experience with young men that I know in which because they're not fitting into the particular type of young man that's being...

that's currently being connecting into faith, you know, a more conservative kind of thing, that they're feeling ignored by the church or not welcome in the church. So, but we're not hearing about them because they're the ones perhaps either leaving completely or quite quitting as well.

But they're kind of feeling like, I'm a young man, but I don't fit their idea of being masculine. I don't fit the particular political orientation that I meant to fit, all that kind of stuff. And so those young men are feeling... not welcome or this is not the place for them as well. So it's really interesting for me, I'm actually seeing consequences for both Gen Z women, but also Gen Z men who don't fit what is being promoted, I suppose.

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting moment, isn't it? That at one level, ironically, or strangely, the trans debate has kind of brought the kind of issue of kind of gender stereotyping to the fore. On one level, healthfully, I think I've heard Christians now say, well, actually, there's many ways to be a woman and to be a man, and we ought to be much more accepting of...

of different ways to be a woman and to be a man. And I found that quite a helpful thing too, particularly dealing with, I mean, over on the male side, it tends to be more that you're dealing with the neurodiverse. And accepting the neurodiverse is complicated hard work and enormous fun. It's really been an eye-opening and a really good thing.

for the church to be the church, and I think has been a good way to deal with non-typical, especially men, but also women too, who are just doing things very different. I heightened awareness of that sort of. That sort of personality, I think, has helped me certainly in gathering a community and kind of helping people to relate to one another. I did want to ask Christine more about also, and Megan too, about the purity culture and probe that, about the way we talk about sex and sexuality.

At one level, I think there was this sort of 90s thing that we've heard a lot about, read a lot about, this very damaging way of talking about sex and sexuality. At one level now, I think people are kind of not talking about it. In many cases, we're not talking about it at all. Is there still a problem here about the way we talk about sex and sexuality that particularly is alienating to young women?

I believe so. And I think it's in stark contrast to how we see women talked about in the New Testament in particular, and how Jesus spoke to and treated. the women around him. The longest theological discourse we have is a woman who has obviously been experiencing some really big lows in her life, that she's had five men in her life and the man she's currently with is not her husband, but the way that he treats her is just phenomenal. He treats her as...

an intellectual equal. They have a wonderful back and forth. And in the end, she... feels empowered and equipped to go into her community and proclaim, you have to meet this man that I've just met. Would more Christian men, when they encounter a woman, have that sense? results where a woman with a difficult past encounters a Christian man who exhibits those loving and good characteristics of our God from Exodus 34, 6-7.

goes out from his presence like you have to go meet this man it was amazing experience more men should be like him more women should meet men like him and we don't see In the New Testament, we see uniquely that even Jesus' someone in the crowd tried to shout out and say, blessed is the woman who bore you. And Jesus kind of shuts that down. He says, no, you are my mother. You are my brothers and sisters.

And in the letters in Acts, we see women are noted for their partnership in the spread of the gospel far and wide, but also in their local communities without the mention of who. they're married to in several examples without a mention of and they were a wonderful mother of five children but then We see examples throughout church history of the church just couldn't stand by and not allow these spirit-empowered women to serve God in exciting and new ways.

But we see as the church becomes quite established in the Reformation, shutting down lots of these holy orders that were... avenues for women to express their intellectual pursuits in a faith-based community where they are writing out scripture and books and theological treatises. expressing their love for their Savior back to God, but also to their community and praying while walled up in the walls of a cathedral.

with a cat in their presence. We all love cats here. But yes, so the Reformation comes along and shuts all of that down and says, no, let's go back to the Old Testament standard and women on our churches, your main ministry needs to be to your husband and your children. Actually, that's so interesting. I actually happened to look up how many nuns there are in Australia compared to how many priests and monks. And do you know what? It's a parody.

which is so interesting to me as a Protestant to think, you know, there's other different structural barriers in there in the Catholic Church. So I'm not saying, you know, one is better than the other, but I just thought that that was so intriguing that that... that particular pathway provides at least a pathway for women that's acknowledged.

and gives them a place to serve God in a clear way, that pathway is clear. And so what you get is parity. Well, you know, if you look at the numbers of ministers, I think in most, not all of the Protestant. denominations but many Protestant denominations in Australia, you would not see that parody. So I was really intrigued after I looked up those numbers to see that. Now I was just going to get people's reactions to there's been a couple of like it.

This really hasn't hit the Australian evangelical sort of conversation space as much. They've more been talking about, hey, it's great, the men have come in, but they haven't really been talking about women leaving as much. But it is coming into the conversation, I think, amongst American evangelicals and, you know, with different ideas about what the solution is. So there was a Gospel Coalition article by Elizabeth Hance in October last year where she said...

The problem is women are becoming more educated and they're becoming more left-leaning, they're becoming more self-reliant. She even says, why would women see a need for God when they functionally become gods? And she thinks the answer to this is that they'll start to see the promises of feminism as empty and they'll be drawn back to the complementarian.

as long as, so she does have a proviso, as long as the pastors are good shepherds and are not engaging in abuse. I mean, what do we make of this take? Do you think this would work with the women that you can see? that are uncomfortable or not wanting to come to church or that kind of thing? Well, I'd say it's a strange take on all sorts of things. I mean, I think...

It's a strange take on feminism, which is a famously broad church and can be held, you know, it can contain radical feminists and liberal feminists who would, you know. basically want to cancel each other on Twitter. You know, it's sort of – it's a very broad kind of grouping. And it also – it just seems like a double standard, I think, because –

why is it that men don't think they're gods or something? I really don't. I mean, that's the double standard there. Functionally, men have become gods. I mean, self-reliance. is a human problem. I don't necessarily see that feminism is doing that. Well, it's sort of a Genesis 3 problem, isn't it? Yeah. So it's a strange and incoherent take to me.

Christine, what was your take on that article? I thought that her point of the promises of feminism being empty... fell flat and it was overly simplistic because we've got amazing, amazing roots and beginnings of feminism in the early... the Christian movements in the early 20th century where women felt equipped and empowered to make changes in society. And part of that was by engaging in society as equals alongside with men to bring about change. The right to vote brought along better health.

outcomes not just for women and children but ultimately men as well and so it's just such a lovely the roots of it are good. Obviously with any social movement there's opportunities to branch out and to become corrupt in some... strands, but any empty promises of equality between image bearers of Christ is puzzling. to me what are these empty promises um perhaps she needs to be more specific and then we can explore

it from there. But what I found was the best response to this article was from an online friend whose handle is Larxiosis. And she said, complementarianism is not the reason. women are leading the church. And some of these churches where they may not be exhibiting the wonderful partnership between male and female that they ought to be exhibiting in the fellowship of the body of Christ, it may actually be

God leading them out and leading them into better expressions of His church and the community of Christ. And I thought that was the best response. To be honest that you know by pointing fingers and labeling and say it's just the broad sweep of complementarianism When in some situations it is quite bad In some situations on the other spectrum, it can be quite bad by forsaking core gospel truths as well. And I should expect the Holy Spirit to be guiding His.

true lambs, his sons and daughters, out of places that are unhealthy and not safe and into places where they can thrive and flourish and shalom. Like you mentioned earlier, Megan. Yeah, I've been thinking about Shalom a lot with this whole question and I think I'll talk about this as we're going to the next segment too, that I think we've got to ask ourselves not what's...

more attractive or whatever, but what is contributing to the shalom, the peace, the wholeness of society and the individuals within it? Well, I was just going to ask both of you really. So I've encountered... No doubt you have more than me, but women who would tell me all about the church they're in that they've been in for ages, not necessarily young women, but they've been in for ages and it's exhibiting all this sort of disrespect.

You know, not genuine even, not complementarianism in any genuine name, not egalitarianism in any genuine name, a kind of real overlooking of women. Yet they... They kind of are more prone to stay than I think men are. So they stay and stay and stay. Is it about time- That they left? I mean, that's what you seem to be saying, Christine. If a church is really kind of continually – because it's not necessarily a scandal. It might just be a drip feed of bad –

bad patterns of life that aren't healthy. What do you think? Because I say on that note, and Christine moves you in a second, but my experience. I mean, I think people stay in communities because that's their community, right? So there's that because they do love the people there and all that kind of stuff. But I do think one of the things that I come across too is that...

In those spaces, if there's some really unhealthy patterns of how they are maybe over-controlling towards women and whatever, that's not in and of itself the only thing. They're often over-controlling as a whole, right? So there often tends to be kind of this feeling of if I go somewhere else, I'm bad. Or the churches out there aren't...

are not as biblical as my church, I'm told. So sometimes there's some really negative, the way that that church, even though they're starting to go, I actually started to think that maybe this is unhealthy where I am, but they've heard. kind of this narrative which makes it quite difficult to leave. I mean, what's your experience, Christine? Why do many women stay in abusive relationships? There's so many reasons. Personal safety is...

But I think what you were saying is that personal safety is connected to community. And if they leave their community and their community is led to believe perhaps that they left because. because they wanted to sin. Have you heard that? The reason why people are deconstructing or leaving the church is because their heart yearns to sin rather than actually...

talking, not just listening, but actively listening, listening for the purpose to understand why are women quiet leaving? Why are they just sitting in the back rather than, especially if the last... Two years, you notice that they stopped volunteering in the creche. They stopped volunteering in the music team. They stopped volunteering for welcoming. They no longer attend a Bible study group. Where are...

the church leaders in discipling and pastorally caring for women who are silently leaving. And the next step is just not to show up at church. There's a problem with when it gets to the point where someone wakes up on a Sunday morning and is no longer quiet, quitting, she's quit.

She cannot take herself back into that environment no matter how much she loves Jesus. That expression of... what's supposed to be gospel community no longer is a place where she senses that Jesus is in the midst and she can't bring herself into there. it can be quite difficult because that church may have instilled in her for years and years and years that they are the true expression of the body of Christ. And she's not to look anywhere else outside of that particular church's expression.

And so she's never allowed herself to think that she could find true gospel community anywhere. And I think that's where we're finding that online communities... is being used by the Spirit of God to bring people to an awareness, getting people outside of their church bubble so that they're in spaces where they can meet other people who have... journeyed that journey before them. I know that with all due respect was really helpful for me.

Having come from a Southern Baptist background, being only part of Presbyterian churches here in Tasmania, to connect with Anglicans in Sydney, Baptists on the mainland and the different expressions. that I experienced in the United States and Baptist expression here in Australia, which is different between state and state and church and church. But those online spaces have been healing.

places for many who've experienced harm or a lack of gospel goodness and a space for them to realize that the expression of the body Christ is so broad and so deep and it's not just one place and they can find wholeness and healing. in the body of Christ elsewhere in time. I think that's a fantastic place for us to finish. Yeah, I just think your point there about the broader church is a wonderful place to learn more fully about Jesus, God, this faith that we share. Thank you for that.

My pleasure. It's been fun. Thanks, Christine. Well, still to come, we've worked out that something is going on with both Gen Z women and men in the current moment, but what are we to make of it? And then we turn back time several generations for the film about Mother Cabrini, First American Saint.

The first hymn project has really been gathering steam. The song has been released and now the movie has been released. And it's an extraordinary project because it is connecting the ancient church to the contemporary church. It's unleashing something.

we almost didn't know was there this ancient hymn with words and a tune and also then this new tune and so it's an extraordinary thing to do where can you access where can you kind of find out about the first hymn and the first hymn movie that's been made Megan, do you know?

Well, if you want to find out where you can access The First Him Movie, you just go to thefirsthimmovie.com. Simple as that. It'll be coming out in cinemas, streaming and so on. If you go there for your location, it'll tell you exactly where at that point. in time you can get it and people are already singing it because Have you sung it? I have sung it in fact actually and I feel this might be a first around the world at the NSW and ACT Baptist Assembly which is like a synod

We were taught it by our director of ministries. The big boss guy taught the whole assembly the first hymn. So Archbishop of Sydney, Kanishka Raphael, I'm looking at you. Yes, that's right. Yes. Yeah, the challenge is out there from the Baptists. And maybe that means now we've got a lot of Baptists might go see the movie too, which would be great. So that's thefirsthymmovie.com. Go there and find out where it's available for you at this time in your region.

For argument's sake, where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out, or perhaps this time the gender politics. Because on the one hand, we have people excited and celebrating the renewed interest in the Christian faith of Gen Z men. On the other hand... we have others anxious about what is happening with Gen Z women. On the one hand, we have people getting upset when other people take the gloss off their excitement with their cries of, what about the women?

and on the other hand we have people saying that yet again the church is ignoring the experiences of women so what are we to make of this michael uh can we do both at the same time or is it more complex than that and are we even asking the right questions

I mean, Michael, what have you made of the whole conversation? Well, I think you've suggested it with the opening there. I think we need to probe whether we're asking the right question and also ask, can't we chew gum and walk at the same time here? Because it... That would be a real tragedy if we celebrated men coming in and didn't reflect carefully as to whether these young men coming in is also at the same time as young women are.

I was very interested in Christine Jolly's reflections. They weren't particularly politicised. Often we make these great big cultural statements about... feminism or Andrew Tate or whatever it is. But she actually just, she pointed to the fact that at a sort of smaller level, Young women often feel unheard or just not listened to or their question is not respected or not given opportunities to...

do ministry, that there's a love for Jesus and people will quite quit even though they still love Jesus. And I think that's perhaps where we should focus more than on sort of grand... cultural proclamations. It might be that, actually, that actually properly pastoring the people in front of us is... Anyway, I was struck by that in the conversation we just had. What about you? I think...

I know it's one of the people saying, well, hang on, what about the young women? And also, as I've already said, the young men who might not fit the mould of who's coming in. And then I had people get... people get quite upset with me saying, let's just praise God. Now, I think it's worthwhile to look at demographics, to look at cultural trends. All of that stuff is worthwhile.

But I think perhaps where the mistake happens is where we start thinking about the church in terms of attracting people to it or people being put off. I mean, this is where you get the whole seeker-sensitive movement, all that kind of stuff. And in reality, actually, that's in some ways always going to be a bit of a dead end. Now, we shouldn't have unnecessary obstacles to people coming in. We should be attractive, I suppose. It's not like they're completely the wrong questions. but um

But the problem is that it then seeks us to go, it's like a marketing exercise, I think. That's the problem. So it's kind of like if we look like this, we can get this group in. Or we look like this, we can get that group in. one, that segmentation is not what the church is about, I think. And also, I don't think the church is to be sort of washed back and forth in that way.

by what's happening culturally. I think that there is a greater mission that's always been there about the church's agents of shalom within the world. And sometimes that's going to be attractive and sometimes that's not going to be attractive. But what it will be is it is good for all people.

Yeah, I mean, that's the vision, right? Surely should be something that's actually good for both all people, intergenerationally as well, by the way. I mean, a lot of this then, you're right, it's the sort of secret sense of paradigm where we go.

ah, look, it's the churches with contemporary music. They're the ones. So you must have contemporary music. And then that's kind of pulled. But the other way, now you've got everyone saying, oh, people are very attracted to the deep liturgy. Well, you've probably got people attracted both ways, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So they're not absolutes, at least in our evangelical way of thinking of things. Those aren't particular absolutes, but we mustn't see those as the kind of silver attractional bullets as much as... I hate to use the word authentic because it can sound inauthentic.

because it's such a cliche, but genuine spiritual relationships, genuine spiritual community, a genuine call to serious commitment to Jesus Christ. I think we've talked about discipleship in this season, and I think that's... That's true for both young men and young women. I think surely respecting or calling them both to that serious commitment to Jesus Christ is where it's at. And I do think that the problem is...

is that the current emphasis on, because it's a very particular, it's kind of men coming out of the manosphere, particularly listening to particular conservative, we talked about this before, conservative voices and so on. Now... I want those people to find faith. And if that's kind of prompting them to go look for Jesus, then glad they've walked in the door and let's help them meet Jesus. Like, absolutely.

But I think the problem comes when we start to see that not as, oh, here's a cultural trend. Well, if people are coming to us, there's a chance to talk to them about Jesus. But rather starting to go, well, this justifies particular political viewpoints or this justifies particular...

gender theology or gender roles and doesn't seek to be a transformative influence which is good for all people and my concern is what we're going to happen is, of course, therefore, if it's something that doesn't enable women to serve Jesus, as we've talked about, because, you know... Most women, it's not that they want to have power. They want to serve Jesus. And that's where we're putting the barrier.

That was very clear in what Christine said, actually. Well, I mean, I've said this to people getting in. They're like, oh, women want to be ordained because, you know, they're seeking power. And I'm like, if I wanted power, there's so many places I could have gone. Like, you know.

I really don't think that's – I might be stupid. Yeah, so, you know, let's be careful that we're not sort of there for, I guess – It's a kind of syncretism, isn't it, of kind of baptising all sorts of different political movements or cultural moments and then basically...

sort of leading that, you know, making that as if that's the faith journey. When actually the faith journey is discipleship, as you say, it's Christ-likeness. And also it's being a place where all people feel welcome, all people can come to peace, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think that's right. I think there's been anxiety. I think maybe from church leadership, we've been anxious. We see talented, gifted young women.

asking questions, perhaps asking for opportunities. And we assume that's because they're raging feminists who are against the church. When actually, maybe they just want us to do it. A lot of us are raging feminists who are for the church, Michael. Well, well. Well, raging, my point is we politicise. We kind of read it as a kind of cultural, an anti-church cultural move when it mightn't necessarily be, it mightn't be that. In fact, a non-anxious response might be much better.

much more accommodate, might actually be what young women are looking for, actually to be respected, listened to, given opportunities to serve Christ. And I have to say- I wrestle as a pastor with things that are more and less attractive to the different segments, including the different genders. So we ran a spiritual retreat recently and women sign up to it in droves.

real effort to get men to, I mean, men always sign up for things later, I notice. I mean, this is men of all ages. And so we had really three quarters women and a quarter men. And so the suggestion is, why don't we just gender separate them, which I would...

kind of stabs them in the guts because they don't want it to be that. Well, and the church is not segmented. I mean, that's one of the beautiful things about the church is that it's meant to take down those barriers. But it is interesting to think, okay, what is it that one gender...

Why is this particular gender not seeing that as something that really... comfortable with or would like to go now i don't think you just cave into that but what is it about that and i think that's true this is the question we're asking to what degree do you take that question how far do you take that question in accommodating when you're seeing an imbalance either way. I mean, I think you've got it because there's...

So there's kind of just going, we're going to go with whatever is attractive, even if that thing is not useful or whether there's some things that would be good for them in the thing that they're not naturally attracted to. So, you know, it's very consumerist, isn't it? Well, we don't want to be consumerist. Yes. We want to convince people to a party. to get there. They don't come. Well, I think too that is, you know, you've got to find the people in your church who are

genuinely deep disciples who are willing to try things out and then be like the front runners, I think, that say this is worth doing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think modeling as well, right interaction between the genders at the pastoral level, the kind of learning from one another. You know, it's, again, the generations as well as the genders. I think there's a lot to play for and a really great vision, which if we were a little less anxious about it, maybe the church could be that.

Yes, maybe if we stop being anxious, we can kind of just do the core business of the gospel, which we should have been doing all along. Still to come. After The Chosen and Bonhoeffer comes Cabrini, a story by Angel Studios, yet another one. They've been very busy about the church with a woman at the centre. What is it saying to us?

True the Wardrobe, finding truth through story. Cabrini is a 2024 American film about the first American Roman Catholic saint, Mother Francesca Cabrini, played by Christiana dell'Anna. This is where I'm getting all my Italian out here. You're enjoying yourself here. That's right. So if I ask for an espresso at the end. In the late 19th century, Mother Cabrini wants to take her missionary aid efforts to Asia.

But the Pope, Pope Leo XIII, played by the wonderful Giancario Giannini, redirects her to help the Italian immigrants of New York. She encounters resistance to her mission at all points due to her ill health. her gender and immigrant status, but ends up starting a new order of nuns which spans the globe. The film had positive reviews, but made little impression at the box office, which Angel Studios have a bit of a track record. Yeah, yeah. The Chosen went well, but they don't have that.

That's right. It can now be streamed on Amazon Prime. So what did you think about Cabrini? Well, we've had some mixed experience with Angel Studios productions. I thought this one was reasonable. I thought it was... quite good. I don't think it was a masterpiece. I don't think it was going to break any new ground but it was a really interesting story told in a fairly good way.

And cinematography, actually, by the way, is beautiful. Yeah, I was about to say. It does. I was actually... this morning looking at it and we've got quite a large screen standing up close to the large screen feeling like i was really in new york i was just i don't know why i was standing up but there i was i felt like i was it really was very uh well shot so it's a good production values and i thought that

Acting was pretty good. Yeah, I mean, you know, John Lifko plays the mayor. It took me a while to recognise him because he's got a beard. He's excellent. The performances are excellent. So I think it... It's a pity that it disappeared at the box office.

Well, it's not, I mean, it is verging on the hagiographical. I mean, it might be that the woman, Caprini, actually does have such an extraordinary life that this is what she's like, but this... you know the challenge is external rather than internal or it's her health but it's not her soul yeah yeah so there's no kind of inner drama inner turmoil um

Not so much, although some of maybe her frustrations with the church hierarchy. Yeah, that was, I mean, yeah, it wasn't as deep as it could have been, but I did find myself the whole way through sort of going off to then check the history about her and going, oh, yes, this is really... That made it a very long walk.

It was very faithful to that. And it was such an interesting story about her. There was really an interesting point at which I think one of the male clergy says to her, is this your faith or is this your ambition? Yeah. And, I mean, obviously she was quite an ambitious woman because she was extremely successful, actually. Now it's like a global order that she started this. quite a few people in Victoria connected with the order running things like hospitals and so on.

Yeah, her ambition was extraordinary. Yes. But, I mean, maybe there was some ambition there, but it's just so interesting. I think what it brings out is the ambition in her as a woman and then from a derided sort of ethnic minority. she goes to America is not accepted in the same way that it will be accepted for a man. And it really did bring that out with no... It was quite strong, I thought, the message about...

women's service, I think. Oh, absolutely. I mean, she actually visited Central and South America in her lifetime as well, despite suffering from this terrible ill health to set up new orphanages and new ministries, which was extraordinary. I was thinking... thinking at the same time about the Protestant missionaries in China and elsewhere, female missionaries, who, again, had extraordinary ambition, you know, translating the Bible into Chinese and inventing a new Chinese script.

so that illiterate people could learn to read it. And then Chinese Braille. What an extraordinary thing to do to give your life, the energy and just, again, the ambition to kind of reach millions of people, not just a few. Well, that's what kind of, you know, there's quotes and I checked them up and they were absolutely amazing. quotes from her where she's going,

Something like the world is too small, like you've got to think big. It was, yeah, an extreme ambition for God. I just want to play a clip so you can hear John Lifko being the mayor telling the Catholic Archbishop off. for not controlling Cabrini. So she didn't need your permission. That's not exactly how she operates. So you let a woman push you around.

An Italian woman. Is that how you run your church? I've got the whole Upper West Side climbing down my throat. They look out their window, and what do they see? A wave of brown-skin filth parading up their street with a nun as their Pied Piper. But don't be mistaken. This is not about a neighbourhood. This is about New York. And I think what really comes out in this story... is the sense of what would we have lost if she had been controlled? An enormous amount. Yeah. An extraordinary...

And her determination to fight against bureaucracy and all the kind of institutional inertia. That's an interesting depiction, actually. The Catholic Church doesn't come across as... It's not evil in this. No. It's just sort of... As you say, there's been inertia or some prejudices. Yeah. So there's an Irish archbishop she's got to convince and she clashes with him a bit. And she's Italian. And so in New York, they're the kind of two big ethnicities. And really it's about kind of...

of getting the ball, getting the wheels of institutionalized power moving and not letting that squash wholly ambition. So I think there's a kind of... um uh a lesson in there that's you know she's not kind of that the The institutional ceiling doesn't squash her. Doesn't squash her. It could have. Yeah. I mean, in the end, it's kind of the Pope is seen as sort of won over by her and she has to keep going over other people's heads. Yes. This is Pope Leo.

Leo XIII. Yes. Leo XIV has taken his name from Leo XIII. Yes. It's a really interesting parallel. Yes. Prophetically. Yes. Before he became the Pope. And he is seen, I think, his role here as that permission giver for her to go and work out God's call on her life is really important as well in this movie. So I think it's worthwhile just, if anything, just to get introduced to...

the character of Cabrini of a really interesting woman. Yeah, that was very interesting. I thought also her model was don't just get on and do it. That was the thing. Just do it. She's just convinced she loves Jesus. She wants to care for widows and orphans. She just doesn't. Well, thanks for being part of With All Due Respect. Coming up next episode, we finish our 10th season with a rather special birthday episode with a rather special...

Guest. Oh, it's happy birthday. Happy 1700th birthday. That's a lot of candles. To the Nicene Creed. Well, at least the first version of it. And we're very pleased to have a guest who we wanted to have on for some time now. So tune in to find out who. Join us next time. Yep. Talk to you then.

And me, Michael Jensen. Is that your radio voice? That's my radio voice. Produced by Mark Hadley. The editing is by Richard Harmway. With all your respect, he's part of the Underceptions Network. So head over to underceptions.com. Well, that's it. Just.com, yeah. Just.com, yeah, thank you. Where you'll find show notes and other stuff related to our episodes and click on our Facebook page to join in the debates with all due respect. UnDeceptions Podcast.

Well, Michael, we often talk about the Facebook group or page and want people to go and check it out. I mean, what is it good for? What do we do with it? Oh. Well, it's a community. That's what I think the Facebook page is for. It's for gathering around the ideas we talk and really talk about and the kind of the spirit of water and people who are sort of...

both like-minded and non-like-minded. I mean, that's the beauty of water, right? So I think we've got people having discussions and debates about pretty serious issues. But also we have this thing called Toot Tuesday. Do you want to tell people about Toot Tuesday? Yeah, which is when on Tuesdays you're allowed to promote anything that's not dodgy. Toot your own horn. Yeah, toot your own horn, which people – and that's just a great way to actually find out what's going on.

in the world around you through the tutes. I find out some fantastic things that people are up to. And then we have some more community building things too, like we often do polls, which people really engage with or ask questions. So I think there's a lot of learning of diverse perspectives and different experiences that people bring that really adds on to what we're talking about.

Yeah, sometimes it gets a bit tense too, which is kind of exciting. But, you know, that's the journey. Yeah, occasionally. But, look, we also make sure that it's a well-moderated space. Yeah, absolutely. So do join us over there on the WADA Facebook page. become part of the community and feedback to us too so you become part of the program part of the conversation yeah you can suggest to us things to do