75. When a Country is Held Hostage: A Conversation with Diego Vicentini

Welcome back to Wiser World. Today's interview is one I'm very excited to share with you. My guest is Diego Vicentini, and he shares his thoughts on the Venezuelan diaspora, what it means to be a Venezuelan living outside of the country right now.

How he decided to write and direct a film that is centered on political prisoners and torture centers in Venezuela, and the risks he took in getting the film to air in Venezuela, which is quite the story. It had me on the edge of my seat. I know it will be the same for you. And we end the interview with his frustrations and advice for non Venezuelans when navigating recent events that have put Venezuela front.

And center. So it's a great interview. One thing I want to clarify is that we don't describe in detail the specific methods of torture used in Venezuela's. Torture centers. Um, I have seen his film, Simone, and obviously he wrote and directed it, so we didn't feel the need to spell them out for you.

But as I was going back and listening to the interview again, I realized that for listeners who haven't seen the film, the gravity of what we're talking about might not land. So I just want to be clear that the methods used in these centers are deeply disturbing. They include psychological manipulation, physical abuse, wretched living conditions, deliberate humiliation, the use of fear as a weapon, attacking, killing other prisoners or loved ones in front of prisoners.

The goal isn't just punishment, it's to terrorize people so thoroughly that once they're released, they never dare speak out again. So as Diego says in the interview, if you look up the human rights abuses, they are well documented, easy to find.

But like I said, we do not go into detail in the interview, mostly talk about perspectives on the film and Venezuela as a whole. But I thought that that background might be helpful. So anyway, I'm grateful for Diego's perspective and willingness to teach us. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Welcome to Wiser World, a podcast for busy people who need a refresher on all things world. Here we explore different regions of the globe, giving you the fascinating context you need to think historically about current events. I truly believe that the more we learn about the world, the more we embrace our shared humanity. I'm your host, Ali Roper. Thanks for being here.

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When we hear about Venezuela on the news or even listening to a podcast like this one, sometimes the facts feel a little abstract. We talk about inflation, oil, elections, migration. Which are big forces and big systems. But one of the things I think we need more of are human stories. We need a little more texture to the timeline because history doesn't just happen to countries, it happens to people. So behind every policy shift or economic collapse,

our families and people and choices and they're just trying to continue everyday life as best they can while also fighting against repression. So today I am honored to have Diego Vicentini on the show to share his perspective with us, to teach us. Diego Vicentini is a Venezuelan film writer, director, and editor. His debut features film Simon, which exposes human rights violations committed by the Venezuelan regime.

was able to overcome censorship in Venezuela and was nominated for the 38th Goya Awards, which are Spain's Academy Awards. in the best Ibero-American film category in representation of Venezuela, and it reached the number six spot on Netflix's global top ten in its first week on the platform. Since making the film, Diego is not able to go back to Venezuela due to threat of imprisonment.

So Diego, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Wiser World. So happy to have you. Thanks for having us and giving some space to Venezuelan voices. Absolutely, absolutely. Congrats on the success of Simone. It's very well deserved. I'm very excited to talk about it.

Before we get into Simone, which obviously I want to talk a lot about, I would love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit first. So would you tell us a little bit about yourself and why Venezuela is so important to you? Well, mainly and principally because I am Venezuelan. So I was born in Calagas, Venezuela, in nineteen ninety four. And uh I mean all my family is Venezuelan, so my parents also and grandparents.

When I was six years old, we moved to the United States. Well, it was gonna be for two years, ended up being three years. Then we returned when I was nine. And that was sort of my parents' idea of like, oh, let's have them learn English, a new culture, just Kind of like a family experience and then return to our country and then Life was supposed to just go on.

And so we came back in two thousand three and then I turned into a teenager and then I'm fifteen, my sister's eighteen, and the country j was just getting worse and worse and more dangerous and more dangerous. So by two thousand nine, for our family, that was the the tipping point because of the insecurity in the country. Um people like broke into our house and other things and the kidnappings were very

frequent and common. So that was a tipping point for my family. So we moved to the US in 2009 when I was 15, about to turn 16. And so I finished high school in Miami. And then I went to college in Boston, in Boston College. And eventually ended up in LA to study film. So Venezuela for me has been, you know, basically. who I am culturally, yeah, at the level of family, the um but it's been very interesting because

uh now I've have actually a little over half of my life having lived in the United States. So there's always been this like duality to me of like being able to Seemingly. be able to adopt the American perspective for certain things, but then of course realize

the heritage and the culture that I come from and how much of that is is in you. So it's always been interesting to like have both of those perspectives and being away has made me realize just how much how deep those roots go. And it's actually made me probably care even more and more about Venezuela as time has gone and especially as

the more time has passed, the more it's become a bit of a this almost mythological, just a memory of what my childhood and teenage years was, because I haven't been able to go back since I was essentially fifteen. So it's been like the those things they don't fade, but they become a little harder to grasp. So that's also been part of this this fight to recover this.

This um, yeah, uh our homeland, my homeland, which feels like it's still yet been out of our grasp because of the dangers implied in in visiting.

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, what a story. Do you feel like your experience with kind of having half your life in the United States and half your life in Venezuela, do you have friends that have had similar experiences where they kind of have this duality, like you said? Do you feel like they share that with you? This this desire to reclaim that heritage or feel close to it. Um I think it's a mixed bag and I think people go through different cycles in their stages of and Venezuela.

I think it's a particular thing because I think it's it might be very common to the whole immigrant experience where like once you leave, you're never really entirely from the place you left and you're never entirely from the place you arrived to.

So then obviously you're an immigrant to the place you get to, but then you visit back home and it's like, ah, but you've changed and you have this different perspective and now you sometimes can't even follow along the very specific niche inside jokes of things that So you're never quite from there. But in this case with Venezuela, there's so many of us that just haven't been able to go back, period. So it's not like ah when I go visit it's strange. It's just like I don't know. I I I just

I can't go or I haven't gone. Um, so I think people tend to that wound differently because it's not like, Yeah, it's it's you go visit. It's like some for some people There it's distancing. Like I don't want to think about Venezuela. I don't want to think about what we've lost. So you know, you just kind of move on.

Um, the way it happened to me for a while, it wasn't that prominent in my consciousness. But then with 2017 and the protest that year, then it just really hit me. And then since then it's actually been everything has felt just like a return, a return. Um the more distance

the more distant I felt from Venezuela or being in LA and just Yeah, I I I think it was like uh so every time I would run into a Venezuelan and it was just like that immediate connection and the j and the things and the way we speak. that was like, oh my God, that that's there. That's like part of who I am. So I think more and more it's been trying to

reclaim that and grab it and just treasure it because having this kind of duality, you're like, oh my God, look at this riches here that I get to have by not just being one thing. So there's been like a a sense of being very precious about it. That's happened with me. I think um yeah, everybody has di different ways to to handle a bit the the wound and the grief with the country. But overall I think this deep collective

Pain has brought us all together and kind of like really lit a fire of some sort of patriotism or just love for roots, love for your home, love for your country. Yeah, yeah. And when you talk about cultural values.

I'm curious how you would describe Venezuela to people who have never been there or don't know very much about it. Sure. One word that that just came up would be like holedores, which just means like Like, um v which is almost a part of our problem too, but we seem to have such a ease and sort of magic for making light of any situation and just finding some joy in anything.

Which is almost a part of the problem sometimes'cause like, hey, sometimes we need to take this seriously and like i some of the stuff is very serious. And yet some astounding capacity to just find joy in every where w in every crack, in every um shadow, y you'll find the Venezuelan kinda smiling and dancing or joking about it. So I think that's very th there's like this warmth openness to us and and recently I saw a

experimental film by a I think American Japanese. I think he's Japanese, but has lived a lot in the United States where he traveled six months to to Venezuela and he did a VR experience'cause he captured everything in three sixty. And he was gonna stay two months and ended up staying six months. And in that film it was beautiful to see a foreigner capture a bit of that essence because the way he was received everywhere, he was just walking around and then even in the

uh potentially like dangerous parts of neighborhoods that are dangerous like people oh co come in and co coca yakas with us and y and it's all on footage and you can see how people are just like very open and welcoming. And I think he he captured the the um his name is Noah.

And it it's beautiful to not like us Venezuelans talk about our own warmth or whatever. It's like wow to really see it through the eyes of a foreigner and see it. Yeah, he he ends up saying four more months just'cause it was so welcoming and despite the collapse and the situation in Venezuela, like everybody was still kind of like joyful and friendly in some insane way. So yeah, I think that's what comes to mind when I think of us. You know, I I read a book on Venezuelan culture.

in preparing to make this one on one series that I've made. And and I think that was the thing that came through the most was sense of humor. Like I I've never I've studied in a number of countries now, um, taught world history for quite some time, and I

I have never heard of a country where people have a sense of humor about everything. And it sounds like Venezuelans really do. It's something I really admire. I think it's not only a skill, but also an art to be able to like crack a joke at something that can be really heavy. You know, like like you say, it can be problematic at times, but Yeah, almost like we should take this seriously. But I mean

Anything happens in the country, like the release of political prisoner and like the memes and the stickers on what's up are just nonstop insane. Like the creativity and imagination is Beautiful and astounding. It's like definitely a coping mechanism, right? Um, but I think it's like the best type of coping mechanism, you know, like

If you're gonna if you're gonna have things be really hard, it makes sense that you can at least find a way to laugh through it. And and that's also a combination, I imagine, of family culture as well, like relying on family very deeply seems to be also something deeply Venezuelan. And if you're gonna suffer together Uh you might as well laugh together. So I I was recently in Oslo I was recently in Oslo for the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony.

That was given to Maria Corina Machado when we were there. Uh I just remember having this reflection'cause there were so many Venezuelans land you know, c consolidating in Oslo and like just journalists and activists and people you've seen and on on social media and all this stuff throughout s so long and now wow here we are all in Oslo. Uh so the day before there was like this candlelit um concert.

And you know, there's some sort of solemnity to what's going on. Like we're here for a Nobel Peace Prize. Yes, it's a celebration, but it but we don't wish we had to have this prize because we're fighting a day. But just to see everybody in the same room, but there's just like the hugs and the joy and the smiles

But like the context of this is heavy, like what we're dealing with, and yet like impossi like it's impossible that this would be some kind of like solemn. I think the Norwegians were like a bit like, What's happening? We're like, all right, everybody sit down. We're everybody's just like having a good time hugging and like

telling stories, people that haven't seen each other in so long. It's like I remember just sitting there and thinking, like, ah, this is this is our magic. And that's maybe part of this tragedy to have these people suffer so much that are so capacitated to for joy. It's like, oh man. And and nevertheless, look at us, but um I can't wait for when we just get to be in that state.

more rather than carrying this this collective own yeah. This he this heavy heavy weight you guys have been carrying and still managing to like do it with light. Now, uh as I told you earlier, our audiences listened to a three-part history series on Venezuela. So they have some foundational background knowledge that we don't have to dive deep into the history gratefully. But I am curious, what are some things

about Venezuela that you would like more people to be aware of. I think the in in my experience now and living in other countries and hearing other people's perspectives. from the outside that aren't Venezuelan. Uh I've seen how essential it is just to speak to any Venezuelan because I think any Venezuelan you speak to will say very similar things about what the last 27 years have been like for us.

So cause then you get conflicting information or whatever headlines or where the information but wow, really just talk to a Venezuelan, i i it it's so I think such a c uh collective experience for all of us.

um that that seems to be the thing that's been missing the most in a way of just like not not uh some international person's perspective on the which is also important and special but I think just speaking to any Venezuelan so Like There's so many specific things that have ha happened that t in the last twenty-seven years, but it's just like o the overall brute fact.

of just the sheer absolute decline and loss of a country. Like that's been the experience of like just seeing it keep going down and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. And every time you look back when you thought, Wow, it was really bad then two years go by and you're like, Oh no, it was not that bad before, now it's really bad and that's been the experience like every two years that you look back every year.

I think there's a simplicity to this in the sense that you could talk like policies and what were the plot policies in place at what time, but in two thousand eleven this happened in the market. But you just look at the overall picture and like we've seen our country just go to absolute crumbles and the absolute corruption everywhere and pervasive and the danger and the repression and the violation of human rights. Like you just get the whole thing like

So that's why it's almost sometimes even frustrating to like you're gonna talk about this specific like we just have seen it. We've seen what we had and then like how it's been taken away, taken away, taken away and and and squashed. So I I think that's even a very generalized but very just clear broad picture of what I think the experience for Venezuelans have had of the just steady, progressive decline of a country in all its aspects.

mainly through very, very pervasive and rampant corruption and and and r repression. So Through through fear and corruption, just basically a system that has We'll we'll force nine million Venezuelans out and I think those are also some of the very easy brute facts that should and it's it's sometimes crazy that they don't, but that should make it very clear that something just very terrible has been going on for thir you know, almost thirty percent of a population to leave its country.

I think when it's not your country you say it and okay, but it's like could you imagine thirty percent of Americans not living in the USA? Which would mean every I'm sorry, I don't know a single family.

Venezuela family that's not separated. Like there's I don't know anybody that yeah, all my family's in Minnesota and we're all here and we all visit each other. So just imagine every American you meet will say, Yeah, but my dad's not in the US, but my mom's not in the US, but my uncles, but my nephews, like Just imagine literally every single American you run into is like that. I think that helps just like whoa, they're imagine the level.

Not things would have to be have gone wrong in the US for that to be the case. Oh yeah. It's a great analogy. And also just to add on to that or to validate that, I I think that that is something that's really surprised me as we've as I've studied the history and and like I said uh we have a Venezuelan on our team here at Wiser World. And something she really wanted us to focus on was that Venezuela was one of the wealthiest countries in Latin America.

for a long time. And and that this is this is not a decline because of war. And I think that that's something that that a lot of people don't know. This is this is not nine million people leaving because of war. This is nine million people leaving because of of policy and repression and corrupt. And that's a completely different ball game. We're talking about completely different thing than, you know, people

leaving because of of warfare. Yeah. And it it's that's a great point because I know psychologically and happens to me, you think of s maybe another country where something maybe somewhat similar with certain s certain factors that are similar, but

And then you look at their history, it's like, wow, there's been like let's say like a lot of poverty in that country for like, you know, a hundred years or they've never even really stepped into the developed world. And it's like, wow, there's Right. And wow, it I I think it almost hits

in a different way when you realize, yeah, but as well in the seventies I think in the seventies or eighties, GDP wise, I think was number five in the world. And then, you know, and this is one generation ago. So when I speak to my parents, they're like, Oh yeah, when the Bolivar, our currency was

It was really strong against the dollars, so everybody was just like travelling to Europe and That was the vacations and going skiing because wow w when you earned Bolivar and then you could really travel and and really make use of of our currency because it was it it was pretty strong. And the yeah, yeah, I I I get to have that just one generation up.

From parents that really experienced a whole nother country that was very prosperous. Obviously, it had its problems, which was led us to here, but they they actually they've been the ones who've really experienced the loss. My generation. I was five years old when Chavez came to power. So I haven't known actually another country. So it's almost in some case even worse for them'cause they've seen what they had and what what's been lost.

Yeah, they witness the rise and fall. I think that that has got away really heavy. That would I think about my my generation, you know, and and how much we love to talk about the nineties, you know, and the eighties. We love to talk about it, you know, and and watching how things have changed so much in the United States. I mean, I and that that just seems so small, the change by comparison.

to what has happened in Venezuela, right? And so I I think that's a very, very fair point. Yeah. Just to even give an example. Imagine you were a doctor working at a hospital. and living in in in this Venezuela and we actually received so many like migrants too, like post World War Two, like so many Italians, Portuguese and people from Spain coming in to build their businesses and the stuff. And all of a sudden you as a doctor are now an Uber driver in

Miami because you can't or you would have to spend years revalidating your things or you actually can't work at that. You haven't seen your family in probably eight years if somebody's still inside the country or wh wherever. And like, wow, how did we get here from like

I always think of doctors just because yeah, it's very complicated to like then work in a d foreign country. Absolutely. Well and and and I think that that's a very common story. One of the things that I have learned is that a lot of the people

who came over from Venezuela or are coming over from Venezuela, they're very qualified to do much higher level jobs than the jobs that they're often doing. Because usually there's a lot more going on under the surface uh for immigrants than I think We recognize

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I I would love to talk about Simone for a little bit. I watched it last week and for those listening who haven't seen the film, this is a film that is focused on a student a student protester in Venezuela and his friends. They eventually are taken to prison, a detention center. It's a it's a really moving film. I think that.

You know, Americans are really good at consuming media and I think a lot of the media that I consume kind of goes in my brain and out the other side. I think Simone is a film that is gonna stick for me. Uh, it has it is lodged in there. It is lodged in my brain. There are images and phrases that were said that I think I'm just never gonna forget, which says a lot about what you've done and I

I'm amazed by it, to be honest. If I'm correct, you wrote and directed this film, so I would love to hear how this story of Simone came to your attention, to my understanding, is based on true events. And I just love to know how you decided to write it and take it on because it sounds like a monumental project, especially for a debut film. So I just love to hear more about how you heard about it and why you chose to take it on.

Sure. Okay. Well see it's funny,'cause even the the the framing of the question, like how did this story come to you or something like that? It's uh d it's like being Venezuelan means that this is just part of your reality and it's not something new or something that you found out about. It's just, yeah, we've known this. It's just the status quo, like people that speak out against the government get disappeared or killed or or arbitrarily imprisoned.

Uh so it's just it's just there. It's just like the reality of of the country. So it was never like this particular story came to me and this one really needs to be told. It was more actually just on a personal level. feeling the need to really need to do something about the country. And so this was two thousand seventeen. I was t uh in LA studying film.

And the last semester was coming up and basically I just had to make a short film. That's like the graduating project. You do like your big semester short film. And that was the year of probably the biggest year of protest in Minnesota. That was like a hundred and thirty consecutive days of protest. And that period for v all of us Venezuelans and the ones living outside was just like kinda wake up, go on social media and

Okay, okay. Oh, today was a seventeen year old they killed and or or this and that. And so that duality, but then you go to class and you're talking about Hitchcock while this is happening. And for me in particular, you know, it's my generation, I was 23 or something. So it's like These are the the students. These are the young people out on the streets that are fighting for our freedom.

And I felt incredibly guilty because of that and because of like the privilege of like here I am in LA studying film, what I like to do. And my equivalent in Venezuela who either didn't get to leave or whatever circumstances life. is out there in the asphalt in the streets facing some military tanks and gunfire and and smoke grenades. And here I am. So that was very um produced a lot of guilt and like cognitive dissonance. Uh so then it was like the urgency of like uh

What can I contribute? If I'm not there on the streets with them, then what could I possibly do while I'm out here? So it was just combining those two things. Well, I need to make the short film anyway to graduate. So It has to be about this. It has to be about Venezuela. And then it started, okay, so what story? And then it was like, well, I'm seeing how much isn't known here in the US.

I just speak to people and nobody knows what's happening. So okay, so it it should some some sort of didactic function of just informing. And maybe I can help because I can apply this perspective of like being on the outside looking from afar. I know what that's like. I'm I'm living it now.

Um, but understanding also kind of the American side and what isn't known. So how can I frame this so that it starts becoming a little more uh digestible and understandable, while also connecting empathetically, which is sort of the superpower that film has that, you know, in an hour and a half, or in this case a short film, which was twenty-five minutes, you can just connect with a character with a single story, maybe you can connect

to the lives of millions of people, but through one singular story. So a and then it was just obvious, like, well if I'm gonna say something about Venezuela, there has to be the protagonist has to be these guys because they're the brave ones. Like I I was in such admiration and awe and also some s guilt uh Yeah o of them. Like here they are. They're risking their lives for the freedom that we all want. It has to do with all of us, but they're the ones there in the front line.

They're the ones about to, you know, really risk their lives. And those who that didn't make it out of there, they never got they haven't got they didn't get to see Vinnesota free. We still haven't all of us, but if tomorrow it changes, they didn't get to see it. And they sacrificed the most important thing they had, their lives.

So it was like well I have to honor them and I have to also make sure that we don't forget because At that point it had already been seventeen years and I know there's gonna be a cycle of protests and then if it doesn't, we don't obtain a freedom.

Then the years pass and then we forget. So we can't forget, especially for those that uh gave their life for this. So it was just like that was just the center of gravity of like, okay, they're like I don't have to think who's gonna be the protagonist or what the story is, it has to be about them. And then almost out of even logistical considerations like okay, how do I tell a story about them that's about this, but I have to shoot it in LA with a student budget.

and be here. So that gave me the the like, okay, so it's about one of the ones who had to leave and is like dealing with the duality of being foreign, kinda dealing with this guilt that I was feeling like, wow now I'm here but my my my classmates, they're all still there and they're fighting. How can I just be here? How can I try to have a happy life here? And what? Forget about that. So that became kind of like the epicenter of the short film. And then after

uh making the short film and I showed it around and was able to go to several countries with it. I saw people's reactions, especially Venezuelans, and then that was when I decided like, oh wait, oh oh my God, this like matters. Like People hadn't felt represented in media. Um

And now they have like a m means to even just have a catharsis to express it. So it's like okay, like obviously a a film will have more outreach than a short film. So then I sat and and wrote the the started writing the movie in twenty nineteen. But all those things that I just described were

basically the same center of gravity of like this guilt, I need to do something for the country. This story needs to be told. It's historic memory of the country. Plus also informing the the rest of the the the world about what's happening. So it sounds like the story of Simone it there's there's not a specific person who's named Simone. This is kind of a is it it's more of a story that kind of represents a lot of different people's stories. Am I understanding that right?

Yeah, so the unfortunate case is uh and yeah, once people ask uh Simon a real person, it's like unfortunately it's just not a unique case at all. This isn't special. This is like I hate how frequent it is. Yeah, you'll talk to enough Venezuelans, somebody will have been in prison, somebody will or they'll have a family member. So it's just a very common experience, unfortunately. So yeah, it it was just this is what happened.

They go to protest, where those that get taken and they get disappeared for seven months or three years and then they come out and then they have to leave the country and And deal with all of that, the PTSD and and the guilt. Um, so yeah, that's just unfortunately a very frequent story. So it's just taking almost like the archetype of that and and then just

finessing that into the story that I want to tell in the way I thought was most, you know, beneficial or interesting or whatever. But the details are just right there the moment you look. I mean, just Google anything and it's like, oh, it's it's hundreds of thousands of stories of this. Right, right. Which is which is so hard to hear. I mean, obviously it's real and it I I'm just sitting in that for a minute. Now that that the fact that what I watched last week is a common story.

It's just that does that make me feel a lot of things, right? Um it's just a story I would never I would never want that story to be common, right? Like it makes me feel emotional because it's It just shouldn't be a common story. Um so I'm I'm really I was really moved by it, clearly. I'm sure that in creating this film, you had to talk to a lot of people, I imagine, to get some information on what these

detention facilities or prisons or whatever is the proper term for them, what they are like, what kind of things are done to people in those facilities. I imagine you had to do quite a bit of research on that. So I'm curious what the process was.

of of learning about that and getting a more granular picture than just the news on what happened. Yeah. So again, eve even to that point, still so much is is known and it's so common that it didn't take a lot like, all right, but let's find out this mystery and doing some investigative journalism. It's like, and

Look up go to the United Nations. They're the independent fact-finding mission on Minnesota. And for the past, I don't know, 10 years they've been reporting on this. And you can just re read that up and you're gonna get all the details of all the tortures. And you asked about what the proper term is, probably torture centers, especially like Elicoida and stuff like that. Um

The it's been reported. It's there. It's documented. That's part of the also frustrating thing. I know when you find out about it's like how how could this be going on? But uh uh look at the United Nations. There's been reporting on this for for for probably more than a decade now. And it's all there in writing. They've got all the testimonies. You go to the like um

the OEA, the Organization of American States, and you've got people that have gone there and just testified and testified and testified. It's like it's been many years of us just like screaming at the world that this is happening, this is happening, this is happening.

Um, so again, the a lot of the information is out there if you listen to Venezuelans or or or find them. But of course, of course, then like by the time I'm writing this, I mean I I had I had like the structure, I had basically the the essentials and then Kind of I've also just I stumbled into

fellow Venezuelans, like twenty five year olds, especially like very young, yeah, like twenty three, twenty seven, that just came into my life while I'm writing and like uh look, I'm writing this. If you wanna like really talk about it and yeah, and they would share with me. Um and so yeah, I got like

specific people's experience and in torture centers, what they went through. Also, not even just that, but also getting their psychological state now. Like, how are you now? How do you feel about the country now? Like Right. Do you wish you went back? Do you never want to talk about it again?

Well honestly and it wasn't even questioning it. You develop just relationships with people, they share what they're willing to share. And the movie, if it's difficult sometimes to watch, that's I would say like five percent of There's five to ten percent of how bad it gets. Like it does It reality is a lot worse. But then it was also an artistic decision of like, well, what kind of movie am I making? What's the point of it? I mean, with

how light it is compared to what reality is. Th I've still had some screenings where somebody had to be taken out because they had a panic attack in the harder scene. So it's like that was part of the gauging where My aim is that people watch it and kind of just understand the gravity. If it's not exactly the detail and how gnarly it can get, that's not the point, because I think I'm gonna lose audience and that would be worse. If this movie is just like

the most like graphic, gut wrenching thing, I think less people will watch it. And that's counterproductive for what I'm intending to do. I'd rather they just have an empathic emotional tie to Venezuela. Obviously understand like, wow, this is horrendous without needing to actually go fully I don't know, more graphic. Also to my own artistic sensibilities. That's not

my style that much. So yeah, that was a bit of a of of pulling some levers. Like what's the right amount of of harshness to this? But uh but you do want it to hurt too'cause it's like you don't want it just to feel like, Oh, okay, no, no, it's gotta also hit. Well I I think you accomplished what you set out to accomplish and when you when you said that you wanted it to hurt but not be like

So hard that unwa yeah, unwatchable. Yeah. Exactly. I I think you definitely accomplished that uh v uh very well. Uh it's it's pretty incredible how well you did it and how well your actors pulled that off. Um, they're fantastic. I think film does a fantastic job of touching into the human side of us all and but there's a a scene at the end where I I don't know how you couldn't cry. Uh In a good way.

And um it just touches this like human part of you. It's it's it's hard to express, right? That if only film can do can do that. So I I think you did a wonderful job with that. And You we talked about a little bit at the beginning how the film overcame censorship in Venezuela. Would you care to talk about that? How that happened and the risk?

Obviously, you know, you can't go back to Venezuela, and I'm sure there's massive risks in making a film like this and how that's impacted you. I'm curious how you have navigated all that.

Sure. I mean, from the day one, so like sitting down to decide to write this film, came with the decision of like, Okay, but I can't go back to my country as long as this system stays in power because This is how they operate. So yes, for so from day one, it was just having to come to terms with that decision. If I if I wasn't willing to do that, I wouldn't have made the film.

And then everybody that hopped on board had to also kind of make that same call. So the producers when they hopped on, it's like okay. What family do you have? Do you have family there or not? You gotta make this maybe like this ended like everybody had to almost have like a family meeting to come onto this project to like make these decisions, like, okay.

Our name's gonna be on this thing. There's some people that help behind the scenes that ask their names not to be in the film just'cause they still have family there or they wanna be able to go to visit. Some people that pulled out. almost even last minute'cause then I think the the gravity of the situation hit them. But yeah, it like coming up part of it.

became an extra decision, not just like some artistic decision of like, oh, am I gonna sign up for to make this movie or not? It also, you know, affected all all all our lives. But in terms of risk, like I still think I With that, sure, my sacrifice had been was to be willing not to go back to my country for X amount of time, maybe forever. But But not a ri physical risk in the sense like, wow, I might be taken because I don't live there. So I always just think of it.

everybody who's been there who's gone out to protest, they are the brave ones. They're the ones I've taken the risk. I've actually felt this is the least I can do because I'm in safety. I don't fear for my life by making this movie.

Sure, I have to give up going to my country, but that's in a wow, it's some emotional sacrifice that I have to make. These people have risked their lives. There's political prisoners around now, people being tortured, people haven't seen their families in years. I think this is the least I can do. and us artists that we have the freedom to voice this like

Oh my god, there's people there that like go out and still protest and they can just get taken that night and they're still willing to do that. How could we not if we're outside? So it felt just like the least, the very least one could do. And then I always assumed also well, this movie's not gonna like play in Venezuela, but you know, that's what the internet is for and there's like ways people will be able to watch it. And a a big part of the

the the the objective is for non Venezuelans to watch this, so you know, we'll we'll we'll see how it goes with Venezuela. So when we had made the movie you know, this is a very like low budget indie film, so like seeing what what what's gonna be the case with distribution, how where is this g movie gonna be seen? And suddenly there was this one little let's say obstacle. that was gonna be important and it's the certificate of nationality of a film, like

to represent a film internationally. So w the the f when Germany sends a movie to the Oscars to like that movie needs to just be verified that it this is in fact a German film. So let's say the the Film Academy in Germany would be like, yeah this It's a j it's it it's in German, the filmmakers are German, it's whatever, it's just like a checklist that makes sure the the film is from the country, it says it is. And that allows you to represent your country. And so

If we wanted to potentially represent Venezuela at some international awards, we would need that certificate. And also, if you have that certificate, by law, you have two weeks. to be in movie theaters in Venezuela because you know, to incentivize the like the the industry. That's like the the normal thing.

So suddenly, if we got this little paperwork, it would be like very important for us because then we could aspire for the international awards. And the reason we could even aspire for international awards. was because the Venezuelan Academy is just held by Venezuelan filmmakers. So it doesn't have to do with the government. So because if it had to do with the government, we're like, there's no way this movie could ever represent Venezuela internationally. So there was like this chance.

like the the Venezuelan Academy, it's like us, it's us filmmakers. We have a portal. We c we can all vote democratically. So it's like this can actually happen be and especially most filmmakers don't even live in Venezuela. So

If we get the paper, this could be a possibility. But that paper is given by a government institution. So we never thought we would get it. But We were like, But at least let's make the attempt let's not self censor, let's have them say no or do whatever and then we could just go to social media and say, like, look, they're not even giving us nationality and the movies made by Venezuelans about Venezuela with Venezuelan actors but and like

Um so we sent them the paperwork and the you know that was an important moment because we had to send them a link. And it was like, okay, now they're gonna know this movie exists. Cause before that, like nobody knows anything about this film, but damn, now we have to send them a link. And there's this concern, like maybe they like film it and release it and then they screw us or like whatever. And like that was very nerve-wracking. But it was like also after that moment.

Now we're somebody. Like now th that they're gonna have access to this. But eventually the point is we get the stamp. We get it's eventually on film. To our surprise, like what? But in that document then you really read the fine print and typically there's just three paragraphs. It's like yes, this film is better as well on me because it's a complacent thing, but there was an extra fourth paragraph.

that said, notwithstanding, we deemed the content of this film to be potentially violating the law against hatred and peaceful cohabitation of Article twenty. which if you then read it is ten to twenty years in jail for um inciting hatred or or whatever, which is a very common like thing they do in both Venezuela and in Cuba because the logins hate is very subjective. Like

You tweeted something. You're inciting hatred to jail for seven years. So once I was out, okay, okay, that was the first like wow, here's like a first official. like thread or warning of like because that article twenty is the diffusion of this material. Up to that point it was just a link we sent. The movie still doesn't exist. Nobody has seen it. So that's like if the movie goes out

you could face these charges basically. But again, we have the privilege. We're not in Venezuela. It's like fine, cool. To give me two twenty years in jail, but I'm not there. What we wanted was that what's that stamp? And then we were able to speak to movie theaters there. And we just told them about the movie, we had them watch it, and it's the movie theory.

The well, the people who were the brave ones'cause they watched it. I mean, afterwards they told us they had to really discuss it, but then they said, You know what? We're gonna show it. We're gonna put it in all the theaters in the country. And again, this is about the like Venezuelans joke. They joke like, well, you know, if they take us, don't forget about us, like help us get out of jail, like laughing, but but it's real. Like we laugh. Like that's real.

But they were the brave ones. They're the ones that are there. They're the ones that they said, Look, and I don't know, if day two they come and shut down our movie theaters, we'll deal with it then. But they said, But we're not gonna censor

That's what they do. We're we're movie theater. We show movies. We're gonna stick to it. There's Cines Unidos is the name of the the the movie theater chain, which is, you know, one of the two biggest movie theater chains in the country. So them like Standing ovation, applause and admiration of their bravery. So much easier to just said, like, hey, sorry, but no, like we don't want to have our movie theater shut down or something.

And understandable. But and that's how self censor happens. And then that's why this gets very tricky because then it's like, where is the law that says movies can't go out? And then the government will be like, There's no law, see? But it's the fear. Cause then they'd be like, Yeah, but then I'm not gonna show it and then they come and take my daughters away from me.

And then we just stop doing things because they show they just have to do it a couple of times and then people self-censor because yeah, you don't want to be next. Um but there's nowhere in the constitution that's gonna say there are no movies allowed that speak ill about the government. They just find the people that do say anything against it and then they disappear them and then eventually people stop doing it. Um

But then how these acts of bravery can change things. And they're like, no, no, we'll we'll put in theaters. And I mean there was such a workaround Like I mean, there's so many specific things about it. For example, it was gonna uh premiere in in September in theaters, but to be able to be nominated for like the Oscars or the Goya Awards, technically the movie needs to have been at least seven consecutive days in commercial theaters.

So because there was such an expectation that they might shut down the theaters we came up with a thing where like even I think they suggested in the middle of the summer, in like J June, they released the film. in the randomest city in the smallest theater at like eight thirty AM for seven days consecutive, just so we could fill the requirements, because there was such a fear they might shut down the theaters after two days of this.

showing in theaters and then we won't have the technical things to be able to represent medicine internationally. So imagine that we just have to like release it and during the summer at the like and not obviously post it anywhere, but that it came on the website. I think like seven people actually went to watch it. I I don't know who those people are who just like randomly went to the movie theater and like

Oh let's watch this random movie. Um but like the workarounds that you have to find to just like deal deal with this. Um and then Ah, that's like that that's that's like ninja level figuring out all of the the contingencies and all of the different ways to get around it. That's impressive.

And then while that plan was set, like cool, release it for a week in the summer and September it's gonna come out and then suddenly we get a call from the Venezuelan Film Festival, which is like the most important the main film festival in Venezuela. That kinda like hurt that there was this movie. Again, I hadn't released a trailer, I don't think I'd even put a a poster so

But one of the producers, like a well known filmmaker in Venezuela. So I think somebody found out that he was a part of it. So they assume like, well, it must be a a good project or something. So they call this like you if you have a film, it should be a part of the Venezuelan Film Festival. Like and it's not like that many Venezuelan movies get made each year. So it's like Of course. And then we're like, you should watch it before you want to have it in the festival because it's a risk. And

Eventually they're like, No, no, no, it's fine. Like it's if it's a Venezuelan film, it's a part of it. I'm like, You should really watch it. I don't think they did, but then everyone's like, Okay, the first time it's gonna be shown in Venezuela is actually for this festival.

But then suddenly this festival became really important because since it was before coming out in theaters, before the potential nominations for international awards, It made sense like if we win the most important festival in Minnesota, it's gonna get make it at least a little harder to censor because now it's like

Oh, this movie won the most important festival. Then you're gonna censor. It's at least not making it easier for them. It's making it harder to censor. And it gives more of an argument that this movie should represent it international.

Again, this is if the movie had the merits to win the festival. If it didn't or there was a better movie, cool. Um, but if it was the case, wow, it's a really important stepping stone for everything that was to come if we want this movie to grow and and just more people to see it. And so the festival had basically five judges and two of the judges were people that are like known to be with the government. So it was like it it's up to these three guys

if the movie has the merits and if it is, let's say, the best movie of the festival, it's up to these guys to be brave enough. It's not just that the movie's good enough. It's that they're brave enough to pick it. And and suddenly it's like

it was I never thought to go back to Venezuela, but then five days before the festival started, I just couldn't de it felt very hypocritical. Like I want these guys to be brave And maybe put their lives on the line or their freedom on the line for my movie to win this festival if it's if it deserves to be so. And then I just felt, Oh, I think I have to go. I have to be there'cause I can't like At least I have to be there to be like, Yeah, I'm here too.

So yeah, like five days before I decided to go back to Venezuela for the first time after fourteen years. And then so I called one of the guys that I interviewed when I was writing the movie who had been imprisoned and tortured and he was living near Colombian the border.

And I'm like, what's the deal with the border now? Like is it strict or is it easy to get in? And this was summer two thousand twenty three, so things were actually somewhat calm. And he's like, No, actually I go in and out the border frequently.

And I told him I wanna go and I wanna go to Merida, which is where the festival is, which is somewhat near the border. And then eventually he's like, Actually, come to Cúcuta, I'll pick you up at the airport in Colombia and we'll cross together um into into Venezuela. So

Yeah, you can imagine very surreal. I was like in my own movie, like with one of the Simons of real life that I was interviewing, in the car, driving into my own country with like a like the movie in my in my hand to go show this. Very surreal to be back knowing that I'm gonna go show this to an audience publicly. And

Yeah, very nerve wracking. I mean, all the protocol like having the air tags in case e air tags in case they kidnapped us, my mom like worrying de to death here in Miami. Just like tracking us to see if we disappeared. We got to the festival, obviously, I don't know, just being there.

And then the next day was the screening of the film, which was horrible in the sense that like I knew the risk I did, you know, going there, obviously, but then like being in the room and then like the movie starts. And then like ten minutes in the projectionist comes down. He's like, Are you the director? I'm like, Yeah, he's like, Well

In case anything happens, just know we're here. Let us know. I'm like, why? He's like, well, I'm seeing what the movie's about. And I'm like, it's ten minutes in. This only gets so you saw it. It's like ten minutes in, nothing has happened yet. I haven't shown anything.

Nothing is happening. I'm in the back of the room and then when like the stuff the scene starts happening. Actually the worst one was when Melissa's on the computer and she starts like researching Minnesota and sees the videos and I'm like, why was I so explicit? Because I'm like, I'm here.

I'm in here. Um, so it was yeah, I was like sweating cold as watching, like, why did I why was I so explosive? I'm sweating as you're talking about it. Yeah, I was like, I should have been more subtle. And then yeah, no, then it ended and then the the the eruption Of the applause and the the people.

uh was was inc incredible. I had already shown the films elsewhere, outside. And I was always nervous about how Venezuelans would react inside because again it's like I haven't been there in fourteen years. What if I'm deluded? What if I I'm out of touch with what people are feeling there. And it's like, oh, this guy who left and he has no idea. Um so there was always that nervousness.

how it would hit in Minnesota. And then I was I was really surprised because in my experience there that day, I was like, oh, it hits harder here. Because again, the movie's a lot about being outside watching from afar. I'm like, uh that's gonna hit all of us who are outside And nope, my

insight that day was like, oh, I see, because oh, it turns out it's a privilege to be able to mourn your country and to hurt. It's a privilege to be able to allow yourself to feel pain. Cause those of us that are outside, we get to like Tonight with my family, let's talk about Venezuela and let's just cry because there's political prisoners and cry because everything that's going on and and let it hurt.

And then we go to sleep and we're right now I'm here in Miami and tomorrow you know, go somewhere else. There they can't even allow themselves that because then you you d you can't wake up. Like you how do you go try to figure out your job situation if you're just what's happened, the people have died and we're still here, nothing has changed. You can't. So it's like people

have to like put it to the side, put it to the side. And that period post COVID, since twenty nineteen, there was like a couple of years of like, okay, whatever, we have to just move on and like, I don't know, deal with it. And it's like the movie came and it really like shoved people's stuff that they hadn't wanted to see out of them.

But you know, in a cathartic way, but that's what I saw and what they were telling somebody was like it was like you put a screwdriver and like took out that part of me that I had like put to the side. So it was like so much repressed stuff just like coming out. So it was like, Oh my god, this hits harder even here'cause they can't

We get to do this outside. We get to just like have our moments and like break down and cry and what we miss. They like have to just like, nope. Like, what are we gonna do? So that was like a lift I gotta live today. I gotta make today ha I gotta make today work. That was an insight there to like wow, that so but then obviously beautiful to like wow we're here and like the the hugs and the and and with everybody

Uh but then yeah, then then scary, uh like, okay, now it's out. Now whoever was in that room, anybody could have like reported this to whatever. At the whole we always had said like let's have a driver on standby in case we need to leave quickly. And we're like, ah, should we call them? Should we not? We waited for the next day. We had a press conference for the festival, like, okay, so 40 journalists.

And actually I was surprised. I didn't think there would be that many journalists from like the government. Cause then it started, okay, the first question, and they're like, oh, with a Simon. Team because I it was me and my and the producers were there too. And the first question was already like berating the film, like you guys are lying about what's happening and blah blah blah blah.

And I was like, okay, that it was surreal. Like I've heard this all my life, the speech that were probably funded by the CIA or whatever. It's like, no, I'm literally better than when I wrote this movie. But like to be told it to me here, like I've seen that so much online and like here it is. And you know, we smile like okay, like that's what

artists for we get to have different perspectives, right? And then the next one. Same thing about Simon. Then the next one. Simon. The next one. Simon. Seven in a row, eight in a row. It almost gets awkward. Like there's other actors of other films and it's all about her movie and they're all like attacking the film.

And you know, we're just being diplomatic. Um and then the eighth one she brought up that's like, Oh, it's my understanding that in your certificate of nationality it says you might be vi violating the law against hatred. How do you feel being here? And that

So that one felt much more threatening because the other ones were like attacking the film per se. This was like, how do you even have the document? How did El Senac, which is the institute, did they give journalists the documentate? Like why is that the case? It just felt very intentional. Make sure you know that we that that we know that they know we're here and that That clause is there. And then after that we were like, okay, let's let's leave this city.

And I before leaving I spoke to like one of the main people at the festival just so when they found out we weren't there, they wouldn't be surprised. And I was just like, Look, I just wanna let you know I'm nervous'cause this just happened at the press conference and well the movie. I don't think that person had seen the movie, so I didn't think they quite got it.

But, you know, they told me, Look, nobody's ever been arrested because of film. Don't worry. I know you haven't been here in a long time and they like to scare you and threaten you, but you're gonna be okay. I'm like, Okay. But I left anyway, we drive five hours south to the other city, but we stayed the night there. And in the morning we're like Did we leave too early or

Should we go back or like we're thirty minutes from the border? Should we just like leave while we're ahead?'Cause there were still like three more two more days of the festival. There was like a s second screening of Simon and then the award ceremony. Um, but we're like, we're thirty minutes from the border. Let's I think we did what we came here for. We shot our face. We did we we shot our face. We were there giving press conference and we were there representing the film.

And we get in the car and ten minutes before we cross the border, that same person sends a text and it just says, Leave now. Period. So yeah, the same person was like, Nah, don't worry, it's gonna be fun. Then they're like, Leave now. And thankfully we were ten minutes from the border rather than five hours away where we would have to like, okay. Um so yeah, just those final ten adrenaline filled minutes in the country, getting to the frontier in Colombia.

And then just do like the car stop while they check the like IDs and I actually didn't even have to give my ID. And yeah, that minute it's like, Okay, my life could change drastically in the next minutes and then okay, go ahead. We drove like a hundred yards, stopped the car, got off, all hugged each other and then straight to the upward. And then when I got to the US, I'm like, Cool now

And then eventually the movie won the Oh my the three guys. Which is on YouTube. You can go on YouTube and watch the ceremony and you can see them like nervous like look at each other like, Are we really gonna say this? And they're like, Okay, the winner

Simon, like you can see it's uh it's on YouTube. Um and yeah, so they chose it, they were super brave. Um and the movie won and then I always see it as the kick off point, like the it won the festival and then eventually it came out in theaters and now it it's it's been the

the most seen Venezuela movie in theaters in the last eight years. So in all Venezuela since twenty eighteen it's the most Scene One Theaters, then it got selected to represent Brazil for the Goyas, then it got nominated for the Goyas, and then Netflix.

to became interested and then it got on Netflix and like it just snowballed in such an insane way. But I always it always it was like that was the starting point where like these decisions of those three guys who are brave enough to choose it, the movie theaters that were brave enough to to do it, like these small acts of bravery, how they can like

either have stopped, let's say, the movie or like it it allowed it to grow and then eventually, wow, now millions of people have seen this and and people can use the movie to like explain the situation. So We owe so much to those brave people. My gosh, I'm on the edge of my seat through that entire story. I feel I'm sweating hearing you just talk about it. What a story. What an experience. There's big institutions and there's big powers, but the power of those three guys.

The power of you and your producers to show up to to arrive in that moment and put your you know, your money where your mouth is, more or less. It's a great example of just like individuals using their own courage and bravery to push something forward that needs to be needs to be put out there. And I I I'm I'm an awe.

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So now I'd love to know what do you hope the audience will do after watching Simone, after watching your film? What what do you want them to do? I think right now which we've seen that this so important and th there's this almost like I don't know if it's an official term or anything, but almost uh like narrative occupation has been something that's been resonating a lot in these past weeks as the news has have imploded about Venezuela and then you hear

people occupying social media space, occupying protesting space to have their opinion and perspective of of what they think is happening. which sometimes obfuscates Venezuelan voices and that should be a bit of a

maybe a a sign to step back for a second, which is okay. I think we're so maybe even hardwired now to like speak out about everything immediately the moment something happens because if not you're part of the problem and your silence is heard and it's part of you know, and that's making it a very trigger happy in terms of our social being like, okay, let me post about this now. But there's also I think a case to be made like, no, like

It doesn't have to be so immediate. So you get a chance to maybe wait, let me see what's going on. Let me hear the people that are maybe from there that before I give my two cents on this. So if anything, if the movie can be helpful to to be that space for many people, we're like, sure, maybe you don't know about his welion. Uh and it's also tricky like, Hey, tell me everything about your country quickly'cause it's also hard emotionally and it's like demanding and taxing.

So that's also been cool for Venom who wants to tell me like thanks'cause now like, Oh, my boyfriend that's not from like I could just like watch this movie and then we can talk. Like it it just serves as the first point of contact of like

Once you get even a sense of this, then like know where I'm coming from. Right now it's been very important the social media space and because there's so much noise and it's like we saw this past month of like our voices getting drowned out, or now we're having to like

spend our energy correcting the things that other people are saying that they think they're defending us, but it's making it worse. So now it's like listen to us before you try to I I I'm sure it's from good intentions and'cause you're concerned about Venezuelans in some way, but This is actually making it worse, or you're like drowning out our voices.

So uh if anything for it to be a a way to step back.'Cause then there's other things about like yeah, sending I don't know money for kids that are malnutritioned or families that have political prisoners and stuff like that, which is always like helpful, but even just the 'Cause we really lived it this past month of like, oh my God, now we're spending our time just like

And debunking this and like having to explain that's rather than even getting to denounce the things we need to denounce or support that. Now we're having to like Oh my God, this came out in the New York Times and it's like not at all proper or like the and now it's like we have to spend uh making videos and our energy and stuff on like just trying to explain um

Which was a big part of the reason why even making the film in the first place. So it's like here, like it's passive. You can just hit play and receive this. You don't have to go and read a book. You don't have to go and like do your research, you know, in a more active phase. Like that's the beauty of movies or documentaries. Like sit, hit play and like Let it wash over you. And it's not like take the movie as the ground of truth or something, but

Uh, then I would invite you if you watch the movie, if you know any Venezuelan, ask them about the movie and ask them if they think that's representative of their experience. Like see for yourself. Like don't just count on Diego telling you that this is the case. Like literally

If you've seen the movie, then just uh talk to any Venezuelan and see what they have to say about it. Oh, that's great advice. That's excellent advice. It reminds me of the Princess Diaries when Lily Moscovitz says shut up and listen.

Just to make the point explicit, but it's incredibly important to get outside perspectives and anybody can have opinions and and and and perspectives on any country. It's not like only Venezuelans can speak about Venezuela. It's just Something to really keep an eye on if Venezuelan voices aren't part of the conversation, or you have maybe I have no idea what Venezuelans have to say about.

it would probably be very beneficial to at least get that perspective. You know, if something happens in Sri Lanka before I go out and like literally spend my time and effort to go to the street to to protest and demonstrate. Let me see what Sri Lankans have to say about the you know that it's like make that be an instinct of just like let me double check with the people themselves before it sounds right, but let me just because what if

Every single Sri Lanka guy I speak to then tells me, No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not it. Oh, then then maybe I should wait, do more research. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I agree. Our knee jerk reaction when anything happens anywhere in the world really should be to look to the people, the people from that place or who live in that place. It seems obvious but

It's not always the most obvious thing in the world of social media. So it's really important we do that. I agree. And I'm curious now, what are your hopes and aspirations for for Venezuela moving forward?

Sure. I mean, hopes and wanting things to happen are all the same. So w we're very simple in in what our aspirations are. Freedom. uh that we can live without fear. That's the most pernicious thing and the most horrible. It's like, the thought of me going right out to Venezuela, well things are changing, but um is like, oh my God, will I be killed or jailed or because I made a movie? And that's goes for everybody because you tweeted something. I mean the state of affairs now in Venezuela, people

Or even if you have somebody here, but they're gonna travel to Venezuela, they have to delete their WhatsApp, they have to delete all their conversation histories. So because then you can get stopped, they can check to see if in your WhatsApp, if in your stickers on WhatsApp, like memes, there's like a sticker that's like Either with Maria Corina or like making fun of the dictator.

you will get arrested or taken. So people have to wipe their entire so you'll get people like, Oh, sorry, I w what did you text me last week? I just had to delete everything and that's like normal and normalized. Or because you tweeted something, um So yeah, to not live in fear, to have freedom of expression. So that's

That's just the number one. It's for our families to be united again, for our country to be a place we can just go. Like as simple as that. And for that we need to just not have the fear of of repression, the fear of of just arbitrary uh uh demands and and whatever the that they want to do to stay in power. Um so that's the the aspiration for for change. Just to basically it feels like having had your country hostage for twenty seven years.

And just wanting to then the country not to be kidnapped anymore. Yeah, yeah. I share the same hopes for for Venezuela. Geez. And I really appreciate your perspective and offering your perspective on this. Yeah, no. Thanks you for like giving us the space. It's exactly like yeah, just to hear my perspectives and I guess I'll I'll just mention because I know it it's probably some of the most

uh you know, like hot button issue and I don't know like how political you want to get, but about Trump and and everything that that's been happening. Just to even give permission to people to be okay with holding two things at the same time. Let's say it is the case that you are very, like very against the current administration of the United States and how they handle things and what they do, that's entirely like justified and you can have all the arguments.

It just can also be the case that it turns out that for the people affected by certain things, it could turn out to have been a good thing, whether it's still you deem it to have been the wrong way of doing things or that it's actually detrimental for Let's say the world order or the way things y that could be an argument. And yet it could still be the case that for the people In that country, let's say specifically Venezuela, this case.

it could turn out to be a net positive the way certain things have have gone down. So those two two good uh things could be true. So you don't have to surrender one point of view or one opinion. for the other. They they don't have to be m mutually exclusive. And I think that's the kind of nuance that we've been really

lacking cause then it's like it's just either this or that and then things can't coexist. And then I think you get something like this where you get people literally you know, asking for a dictator to be put back in power of somebody who kills and tortures people and it's almost like good intention people and oh my God, because

There they they're can't it ha it's only black and white. And you'll have Venezuelan so it's like wow, this this wasn't the way, this wasn't whatever, but When you really understand or like to put analogies, it's like if your family is held hostage in a house

And you can hear them and they're getting beaten and and they get all sorts of things done to them. And you're desperately, desperately trying to get into the house to just free them. But you haven't been able to. You don't have the gunpowder. The like the guy there is armed and the thing is locked. I imagine twenty seven years, like desperately. And then

Somebody comes in like, all right, I'm gonna take the dude out. And then people are like, Wait, wait, wait, but is it done the right way? Is it is it the pa is the paperwork in line? Wait, this they actually don't really care about your family. They want to go and you're like I'm sorry, my it's my family, like I just

I don't care. Yeah, that's a bit of like and that's not a technical argument or an illegal that's just even just a psychological, emotional perspective of where we're coming from. And it's like, get him out and then sh like But we're really gonna be spending now we have to discuss the technicalities of the locksmith that opened the door and how that occurred rather than like, can we just be grateful for a second that

th the the f or the guy was taken out like that kind of stuff. Like at least that's like a an emotional understanding of the situation. That's not to get into the legalities of international law or the judicial whatever. It's just even to understand why Venezuelans are feeling the way they're feeling and why they can even be celebrating certain things that for other people might seem like this isn't good at all. It's like

it's been a lot of pain and constant suffering. So then when somebody f like stepped in and like took action that we couldn't do ourselves, it's like, okay, let's take it for what it is and um yeah, you um You're you're not gonna probably complain to the firefighter that rescued you from your fire th about they knocked the door in and broke the door and then you like sue them for breaking and entering into your house after saving your

You know, probably not. And there is I think a uh almost an allergy or a very cautious nervousness towards anglocentric, like American imposing itself on the rest of the world. I think there's a very like cautiousness to that. And yet it's almost ironic that it ends up those people that are worried about that end up kind of maybe even doing that thing because it's like

when you're told, Yeah, Venezuelans, but you don't know. We know because it's not for your own good it's like You're kind of doing that where like you from your perspective know better and it's like taking our autonomy and our capacity to analyze our own history and know where we come from and say this.

Is something we prefer rather than that. And it's like to be told no, but you don't know, it's like, whoa, so your perspective knows more than the ones who have had to live through it. That is And I again I don't think it comes from ill intention, but it's like just to catch that, like cat

when you're so concerned about like that your perspective, you don't want it to dominate the to be Anglocentric or whatever, and then that ends up like being exactly what it is. Uh'cause then it's almost condescending. We're like, don't Venezuela and have

have the capacity for analysis and capacity to weigh their options, the capacity to um determine who they want as their allies, determine what routes of action they deem to be. So yeah, then it it ends up having that flavor of almost condescension, like, Yeah, but you don't know better we do, so it's for your own benefit that we're telling you this.

It's like I mean, it and I'll take the the interest and and thank you for giving opinions, but I'll but just to hear the other side. It's like great to to also hear perspectives. Maybe there's something we don't know. Um Beata. Just get a more complete picture of the thing. Right, right. So if I'm understanding you correctly, it seems like

There's this paradox where well intentioned people are deeply cautious about imposing their American or Anglocentric worldview on other countries, which is, like you said, often a good instinct. But in trying hard not to dominate, they sometimes end up doing exactly that anyway. So when Venezuelans express what they want, which might be different than what you want, they sometimes are met with responses like

you don't really understand what's best for you. And it's like a tension between good intentions, but also like this paternalism that might be unintended, but it's still there.

And I think that the main takeaway would be that we just can't assume that we know better than the people who actually have lived it. It's not like outside perspectives are useless. Like you say, they have their merits, but Venezuelans need to be seen as fully capable of analyzing their own past and and choosing their own future. Yeah, and and because just a lot of time it's just the

You d just don't have the information at hand and n you shouldn't the h who only history majors who have like studied every country, maybe they have some sort of grasp of every sociopolitical situation of every country. But

Just to give like a very concrete example for for your listeners, something that has occurred like this past month, which became very much like a center point of the news of like, especially coming from the American side or even Europe, of like this concern of telling us Venezuelans like, This is because they want to take our oil. Like that became a very thing. Like the they're trying to implement the US is trying to implement a regime chain because they want our oil. And

It comes off and uh and again I'll take this as very goodwill. Like thank you for being concerned because you think we're getting tricked or you think there's ill intentions into the intervention that's happening in Venezuela. Like thank you for the concern. But What if I tell you that if we ran a poll and just had Venezuelans vote, are we willing to give up every oil drop of oil that we have in our country to get our country back?

And if you saw that ninety five percent of Venezuelans would vote that is that still an argument to be made or do we not have the self determined to to well do what we want with our assets? And if it's a price that we're willing to pay. Are we not allowed to?'Cause then then it becomes condescending of like, I don't know, noble savages that can't self-determinate like, no, what if that's something we're willing to trade for?

So it I accept the concern. It's like thanks for worrying, but but now listen, if I'm like, yeah, I this is why we don't it's not that we don't yeah, we almost literally don't care. It's like what oil, who's benefited from the oil?

when our all all our families are split off, there's nine million of us outside, there's political prisoners, like we're gonna be concerned about the revenue stream of a thing that we've never even seen and we've had a total economic collapse and the only people that benefit from the oil have been those that have been staying in power.

Just get that information. Let's say let's say I give you concede all the facts. It's just about the oil. It's pure economic, selfish, uh capitalistic interest from the US. Do we not have the autonomy to choose the allies we want and choose the course of action and also us leverage our interests and our assets for the things that we want? Maybe so.

Right, right, yeah. I I actually saw a video where there was a journalist that was out on the streets of Venezuela and he asked some random guy about the oil and, you know, are you really concerned about about the oil? And and the guy's like What do you what do you think China wants? Like the recipe to our repas, you know? Anyway, it's like we're not we're not idiots here.

The the jokes now of the jokes now of other Venezuelans like, well thank god I have my three barrels of oil under my bed. Like I've got them so I'm not worried about like as if any of us have seen any benefits to the oil that we uh Like yeah, so yeah, that that's the everything becomes a joke. We care about our families being together again and people not suffering in torture chambers, like that's our interest, and yet you're like, Yeah, but your money, and we're like

And and it's almost like the people that are most interested supposing human rights and then you're like, but your your the revenue stream. It's like what? I mean obviously'cause then that would imply some sort of like economic well being, but it's like we're not there. Like we don't have freedom. Uh, we our families are all all our families are separated. So that's what we want. Not our oil, we want our families back together, and we want our home, we want our country.

And then we'll figure it out. Then we'll see how we can revive the economy. Once we're all there, like with the like here we are, we can start this country over again from scratch almost because everything has been so depleted. That's the energy that's happening now. We're starting to finally be able to dream again.

Can you imagine the millions of us just returning and like just the energy. We'll figure it out. Like we'll we'll do it. We'll build this country up again. But we need the freedom we need the safety first. We need the to change. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Fair point. Now for people who want to get a better grasp on Venezuela visually and want to watch Simone, uh, where would you send them?

So S Simon, which is just Simon, but in Spanish. You can find it on Netflix, in the USA, Latin America, and Spain. Every other country in the world in SimonMovie.com, you can find it there. So that'll be Canada, Australia, Africa, uh, the rest of Europe except Spain. Um, you can find it in SimonMovie.com.

Awesome. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for your insights and perspectives. I I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing what you think. You've been an awesome guest, so thanks. Thank you so much. No, thank you for the invitation. It's been a pleasure.

I want to wrap up this episode with a takeaway and a content note. So the major takeaway for me in talking with Diego. Is that when big news comes out about another country, our knee-jerk reaction should be to pause and take a beat and see what people from that country are feeling and saying. He really hit that home, and I think it's because it's a good reminder.

and very important. I also want to offer a content note. So the film Simone includes strong language and scenes of intense violence, including moments set inside a torture center. It's intense.

It has its rating for a reason, but just keep that in mind for younger viewers and also for yourself, especially if you're in a tender or difficult season. For me, watching it in Spanish with English subtitles really helped. And while it is a hard film to sit with, I do genuinely believe it's an important one, especially for anyone who wants even a basic understanding of the realities that many Venezuelans face when they dare speak up.

So if it's the right time for you, I hope you give it a watch because it's definitely made an impact on me. And thanks again to Diego and his team for their willingness to create it and share it with the world at great risk. And I will be back next week with more on the world. If you've listened to my show for a while, you know I think a lot about systems. What lasts, what breaks, what's built to endure over time. And honestly, that's exactly why I love quints for my clothes. They last.

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