Hi there, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We're back for Season 3 of Wiser Than Me. We're ready to bring you even more wisdom from the magnificent old women I have had the pleasure of talking to this season. And get a load of this. We've added some fun new items to our Wiser Than Me merch collection.
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Lemonada. How much fun is it to laugh? I think laughing is just the greatest little gift from the gods. I don't know if you have this, but I have certain people in my life that I laugh so hard with that I cry. There is nothing better. And, you know, I mean, it's not like you can exactly wake up and say, I'm going to laugh my ass off uncontrollably today. You know, the kind of deep.
soul-rocking laughter. You can't plan it. It kind of sneaks up on you. And it can be very surprising. You know, the laughing at a funeral kind of laughing, you know, you're not allowed to laugh makes it worse. It's a mysterious... And it's a truly wonderful thing. As a performer, there's this weird sense playing a comic scene sometimes.
It's like you're several people all at once. You're deeply into the scene, yes, but you're also in your head sort of controlling the scene, and then you're also outside of it watching the scene. And when it's a comedy and it's going really well, at least for me, that deep kind of laughter can just... bubble up and God damn it. It is impossible for me to stop it. I'd crack up. I lose it.
I mean, if you've ever seen any of those blooper reels that they have online from Veep or Seinfeld, my contribution is ruining scene after scene with hysterical laughter. It's horrendous because you can see the other actors not believing that I have just ruined another take. You can see them getting a tad irritated with me, which I guess is understandable. There's one scene though. Seinfeld, where the great, and I do mean the great Jerry Stiller, who played George's father, of course.
He and I are having a kind of a confrontation and he says, what the hell does that mean? And the way he said it. My George isn't clever enough to hatch a scheme like this. You got that right. The hell does that mean? What the hell is that? Come on, okay, let's go, let's go. i mean i never got through it we did like a million takes There was never one in which I didn't weep with laughter or at the very least I was, you know.
whimpering uncontrollably. I had to turn my head away from camera. I was digging fingernails into my palms. I never got it together. I can't tell you how much fun that was. It's just inexpressible. And it really only happens when things are singing, you know? It's the expression of joy at being on a team that is hitting every fucking shot. That's really the best part, the team part.
I'm not a religious person, but if there's a heaven, please let it be that. Please, please. Total, deep, uncontrollable laughter with... A great team with great friends. As I sit here right now, I am so grateful to think that there is going to be another time, maybe even today, when I am laughing so hard that I can't control it. Because, you know, Jesus. That's just, that's what it's all about.
How wonderful, how delightful, how right it is then that for the last episode of this season of Wiser Than Me, today I get to talk to Carol Burnett. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, this is it. Today, I am talking to Carol Burnett. So, I'm already crying. It's true. I love you so much.
There's just absolutely nobody like Carol. Nobody. There is no way to even measure what she has meant to television comedy, much less what she has meant to women in television comedy, and much less. which he has meant to me in television comedy. Side note. Everything. Everything. She's done it all from starring on Broadway nearly seven decades ago in Once Upon a Mattress to her seminal variety show, The Carol Burnett Show, that was a mega super hit.
I've got to get my shit together. I'm falling apart. It was a mega super hit for 11 years on CBS and made her a household name. to great dramatic performances, to the Presidential Medal of Freedom, to a billion Emmys, a Tony, a Grammy, writing a ton of books, and bringing untold joy and laughter to millions and millions of people.
She has a fascinating, heroic personal story that she's been brave enough to share. She's just one of the most well-known, most beloved performers in the history of entertainment. And man, is she wiser than me. I'm so lucky to say welcome, Carol. I love you. I love you too. As we said, when I came into the room just now, the last time I saw you, I was...
thrilled to open the envelope and say, and the Emmy goes to you. And to have you do that and to be there with you, I have a picture of you and me and Norman Lear together. So cherished. It's such a cherished treasure. So, Carol. Are you comfortable if I say you're real age? Of course, yes. And so what is your real age? The big 9-0. The big 9-0. Yep.
And how old do you feel? 11. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah. I can't wrap my head around it. It's gone so fast. Yeah. You know, but as I've been saying before, I've got all my parts. I have my hips, I have my knees, and I got my brain. So I'm really fortunate. You are so fortunate. What has surprised you the most about getting older?
Then I got older. Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel the same. Yeah, you know, I remember when I was growing up, my grandmother was raising me, right? Yes. But she would never tell me how old she was. Ever. She said, and she wouldn't tell anybody how old she was. But I was living with her and her mother, my great-grandmother in Texas. I was about five, I guess it was.
So I got my great-grandmother to tell me. I said, please, you've got to tell me how old Danny is. And she said, oh, she'll kill me if I tell you. Finally, I got her to tell me. I burst into tears. I thought, she's got one foot in the grave. How old was she when you heard this? 52. No. No way. Oh, no. You're going to die. 52. Oh, my God. Isn't that funny? Perspective is everything. Also, Sunset Boulevard, right? The movie? Yes, of course. With Gloria Swanson. Yes.
The whole premise was she was over the hill. at 50. Do you remember that? No, I don't remember that. No, I remember the movie and I remember your incredible parody. She was too old to be in the movies again because she was 50. When I was reading in the New York Times editorial section today, that a lot of people are turning 90 and 95, and they're having parties. And one of the people was quoted as saying, 90 is a new 60.
Oh, God bless that idea. I love that idea. Look at Norman Lear. He's going to be 101. He's going to be 101. Yeah. I know. Dick Van Dyke is 97. And Mel Brooks. Mel? Mel's 95 or so. Yeah. I mean, 96. Maybe there's something in the water. I don't know. Well, maybe there's something about being in show business. Well, maybe there's something. Actually, I want to ask you this question.
Do you think there's anything about making people laugh and laughing yourself? I think so. I do too. I wanted to ask you this. Can you describe... What it feels like to you to get a laugh, Carol, what is that feeling? Well, I've never been high. But I think that's what it's like to just be floating. Yeah, it is a floaty thing. I was a late, very late bloomer. I was kind of a nerd in high school. I was very serious with my schoolwork.
I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper, so I was going to be a journalist. Right. And all of that. And it wasn't until I got to UCLA and happened to take a course in acting, just for the heck of it. I picked a scene for the class to do that would be kind of light because the other kids in the class were doing these heavy, dramatic things. I felt, well, I don't want to do that. So I came out, and I don't remember what it was, but I had a line or two, and they laughed.
Where they should. And did you mean for it to be funny? Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah, because I wanted it to be light, but it was really a big guffaw, really a huge laugh. And I thought, I like this feeling. Yeah, right. And all of a sudden... I decided I didn't want to be a journalist anymore. I wanted to make people laugh. It just took one good joke. A joke and a jolt. Yeah.
You know, I'm jumping all over the place, but it seems to me I made a list somewhere in this. I have paper. I'm surrounded by papers because I had the great pleasure of... of studying up on Carol Burnett, which is hardly an assignment. And many kindnesses have been bestowed upon you, or let us say you have been open to receive them. And I'm very struck by that, looking at your life. starting from your nanny, whom I can tell I would have loved her. But I think about...
your nanny and going to see all these wonderful movies that you saw. Right. Do you mind telling the story about Joel McRae? Because my mother loved Joel McRae, the most handsome man ever. Well, he was a big movie star. You know, a lot of Westerns. He did a lot of Westerns. Right. And I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper. Well done, you. And I thought of... Wouldn't it be a great idea if I could interview famous people who went to Hollywood High?
Which is a great idea. And he was one of them. Yes. And so I went to my journalism teacher and I said, do you think that's a good idea, Mr. Thorpe? And he said, well, if you're lucky enough to do, get it. It's fine. So I was able to track his office, find out his office number, and I called.
And I got somebody who represented him and said, you know, I'm editor of Hollywood High School. And they thought it was a cute idea. So, yeah, okay, you can interview him. So I took the bus over to the studio where he was. Shown it to his office. He was sitting there with us. feet up on his desk, and he had on cowboy boots and a cowboy hat on, and I sat and interviewed Joel McRae.
And it was so exciting. Then I went back to school and I typed up the interview and we ran it in the school paper. Then I got the idea, I should interview more people like that. So I had it all set up. To interview Lana Turner, who was a huge movie star at the time. But then I would have to cut class. to do it because that was the only time I could see her. Yeah.
They wouldn't let me do it. Oh, I wish you'd cut class. I wish I could have. But then years later, get this. Yeah. She was a guest on my show. No. So was Betty Grable? No. So was Bing Crosby? People that... Nanny and I used to go and see. In the movies, you know? When did Nanny pass? She died in... No, she did not get to see my show, but she did see me on Broadway. Right. And when I did the Gary Moore show. Yes. Yeah, she saw all of those. Yes. And it's Sullivan and those shows.
Oh, oh. Tell. Already. I've got to hear it. I'm doing the Gary Moore show. Yes. And so I'm really doing well, you know, and I'm... Getting a lot of fan mail. It's starting to happen. It's starting to happen. So she's in California. I'm in New York. She had a very mild, mild,
heart attack and was in the hospital out here. So I'm talking to my cousin who lived in California. She said, well, you're not going to believe this. I said, what? She said, well, Yesterday, I went to visit Nanny in the hospital. and the elevator doors open, and there are all these people lined up in various costumes and stuff, like extras in Hollywood movies and stuff, and they're reading Variety, and they're all lined up. Leading up to Nanny's hospital room door. Stop it.
She went, what is going on? And she opens the hospital room door. Nanny is propped up, sitting in bed with her arms crossed, you know, like that. And there's a little girl in a tutu. dancing with a baton, and her father is in the corner with a harmonica. And this little girl is performing and ends in a split, and Nanny says... Very good. Thank you. I'll tell Carol about you. Send in the next one. No way!
Oh, my God. Because we lived in Hollywood and she knew all of these various people. And the word got out that she was auditioning people. And my cousin said, Nanny, what are you? She said, well, I got bored. Did she ever find anybody good that you met? No. She just wanted to be entertained. Yes, of course. So she was a con artist. Oh, gosh. I just think that is so charming.
Lucky you to have her. I'm sure she did. Did you always know you'd make it, Carol? Did she think you would, and did you always know it? Did you feel it in your bones? By making it. I felt that I could, if I went to New York, all I wanted was to be able to put food on the table, clothes on my back. And pay the rent. Yes. I did not think about being a headliner. At all. That wasn't, it was just, I wanted to...
perform and do whatever I could. So making it would have been to be able to sustain myself. But then when things started to click, did you have a feeling of... Ambition. I had ambition. I wanted, yeah. I asked that question because I've asked a couple of... other women that I've spoken to on this podcast about that word ambition, because... Well, you have to have the fire in the belly. You do have to have fire in the belly. But sometimes when they say, oh, that woman is ambitious...
Oh, well, that could sound terrible. Right, but that's not fair. No, it's not fair. It's not fair. But I remember, and I have told this story before, because sometimes I get mail or people will ask. How do you accept a rejection? You know, because you get depressed, you know, because you're going to be rejected. Even the best of us. Even the best. And I remember this one time.
I can't remember what I was auditioning for, but it wasn't a big deal. But it narrowed down to me and another girl. Yeah. And I thought I had it. I thought I had it, but I didn't. She had it. But what saved me was, and I don't know where this came from, but I'm grateful. I thought, well, you know what? It's her turn. Right. It's not my turn yet. And did you immediately leap to that? Yeah, I did. You didn't have any feeling of sadness? No. I said, thank you, God. I thought, well, that's okay.
Yeah. I'll get my turn someday. If I try hard enough, again, have the fire in the belly and not let this discourage me. That's right. So it's her turn. And that's what I tell. Kids that are starting out, you know, if you really want it and you really work at it, it'll happen. I was thinking about that, too, because of your time at the rehearsal club. Yeah.
And that was where you live when you first went to New York, which was a sort of a boarding house for young women who are trying to make it in show business, right? Yeah. That in and of itself is an incredible Hollywood show business story, just the fact of that, right? Let me tell you, I'm thinking of doing a treatment on it. I think it should be a series. I think it should be too, and it should be set in that time period. In that period, in the 50s. I love that idea.
I love that idea. Okay, well, if you need the boarding house mother, you're looking at her. Anyway, but I love this story that you told about... and I'll let you tell it, but when you went, you were trying to find an agent. Uh-huh. And was it Eddie Voi that you were speaking? Eddie Foy. Foy, pardon me, Foy. Eddie Foy Jr. So tell what happened. You're living in New York. I'm living in New York.
And Eddie Floyd Jr. was a comedian. Yeah. And he was starring in The Pajama Game, which was a major Broadway hit. What year is this, by the way? 1954. Okay. Around there. Yeah, I just got into New York and I was sitting on my cot. At the rehearsal club. Right. I had a cot and a dresser and four other roommates in one room. And they were all out on a Saturday night. It was raining.
And I remember that when we lived in Hollywood, there was an actor named Jack Shea. And at one point, I remember him when I was still living there, talking about how he did a movie and Eddie Foy Jr. was one of the stars. And he said he was really nice. He was the nicest one I've seen in a long time. So I put on my raincoat, plastic raincoat and galoshes and trudged down to the St. James Theater.
It was about close to 11 o'clock at night. Yeah. Pouring rain. I looked like Ann Baxter in All About Eve. And I opened the stage door and it popped. says the typical, looks like the stage manager, you know, the old guy at the desk. Yes, of course. Hey, kid, what are you doing? He's like, get in here out of the rain. What are you doing here? I said, I'm here to see Eddie.
And he said, you know, Eddie? And I said, I'm from California. Anyway, that's a big deal. Yeah, whatever. It wasn't a lie. Now, I hear this clap of thunder, I thought it was. And it was the audience applauding. It was the end of the show, so everybody was taking their bows. I mean, it was so exciting. And I see John Ray... run by, and Janice Page, who they were the star, and Carol Haney, who was also a star. And then here's Eddie Foy, Jr.
And Pop says, hey, Eddie, this kid wants to see you. He says, oh, okay. Yeah, kid, what is it? I said, Mr. Foy, I know Jack Shea, you know, he worked with you in a movie. He said, you're real nice and I want to be in show business. And I just can't get an agent because they say I have to be in something to get started. And I'm on and on and on and on and on like this. He said, wait a minute, wait a minute. He said. Do you sing? I said I'm loud.
He said, do you dance? I said, not really. I can jitterbug. He said, well, maybe I can get you an audition for the chorus. I said, well, I can't read music. He said, okay, you can't dance, you can't read music. I said, I'm not good enough for the chorus. I think I'd have to have a featured role. Oh my God. That's not fire in your belly. That's balls. Yeah. But the thing is,
He wasn't a trained dancer. He wasn't a trained singer. He couldn't read music, but he was a star. And he said, okay, what's your phone number? He said, well, I'll see what I can do. He called me the next day at the club. Talk about kindness. And he said, this is my agent's name. I told him you were going to come see him. Right. And I took my UCLA scrapbook full of nice reviews. Smart.
And he looked through. He said, well, let me know when you're in something. I said, but how? And he said, well, go put on your own show. And so then tell what you did. I said, okay. So I went back to the rehearsal club and I called a meeting for all the girls. I said, we're going to put on a show. Yeah. We did. I wrote my own material. Everybody wrote their own material.
We sent out penny postcards to every agent and producer in town saying, you're always saying, let us know when you're in something. Well, we're in something. And they came, the producers and directors came to the show. And three of us got agents out of it. But you make your own breaks. Yeah, you make your own breaks. You pushed forward. You pushed through. Right.
The most stunning story. And it's a great television show or movie, whatever you want to make it. It really is. More with Carol Burnett after the break. Hey, Prime members. Did you know that you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad-free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad-free.
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Hi there, listeners. Just a quick note before we get back to the show. I want to tell you real quick about my new movie called You Hurt My Feelings. It's a little comedy about the little white lies we tell to the people we love the most. I play a writer who discovers that her longtime adoring husband, who said he loved her latest book, actually hates her latest book. Can you imagine that mindfuck?
It was so superb to work again with Nicole Hall of Center, who is the writer and director. The entire cast is truly unbelievable. I'm so proud of the damn thing. You Hurt My Feelings. It's out now in theaters everywhere. I hope you go check it out. So you had many mentors in your career. Yes. Lucille Ball. Right. Gary Moore. Who else? Who else am I? Those are the two main ones, right? And if you don't mind... Tell me what Gary Moore...
What were the big takeaways? If there were, in fact, pieces of advice they gave you or they modeled for you? He was one of the kindest people and most generous. And he was a big star. I remember when I was hired. As the second banana on his show. Yeah. And Derwood Kirby was the second banana also. And there would be times when we'd be reading the script on a Monday and we were going to tape on a Friday. Yeah. He might have a joke or a punchline, and he'd look at it and he'd say, you know what?
Give this to Carol or give this to Durward. They can say it funnier than I can. That's who he was. It was the Gary Moore show, but he wanted everybody to shine. And I learned that, and that's why my show... I never really called it my show. I called it our show. I wanted Harvey to shine, or Vicky, or Tim, or Lyle, and then I would shine, and we totally... It was the rep company. We totally supported each other.
Since Caesar was that way with Carl Reiner and Imogene and then later Nanette Fabre, you know, that you spread it around because it only makes the show better. And I learned that from Gary. And you know... That camaraderie, which is really, you're talking about generosity and camaraderie, was really evident as... you know, to lowly me, audience member, watching you as a young girl and as a teenager watching your show, it was so evident to me that it was fun.
Right. And that you all were having such a good time. Isn't that why we get into it in the first place? Thank you. That's exactly right. And then later they get cynical. Then sometimes people get cynical. And instead of show business, it's show business. Yeah, totally. We want to get in the sandbox and play. Yeah, it's all play, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And don't take yourself too seriously. Please don't.
Right. Tell about Harvey Korman and that moment when you had to let him have it. Do you mind telling that story? Oh, Harvey at times. Could be a little grouchy, but then we could tease him out of it and he'd be... He was always wonderful. Right. You know, when he was performing, nobody could touch him. Nobody could touch him. So brilliant. Yes. And so this one morning we were pre-taping something. And Petula Clark was on as a guest and everything. And Harvey was in his costume.
He was a little short with her. I don't think he meant to, and I don't remember what it was, but he said something that was not kind. I could take it if he wanted to be a little curmudgeon with me or something, or Tim could take it, and we'd get him out of it and he'd be fine. But I thought, you don't do this. To a guest star. So I went up to her, I said, Harvey, What's wrong? He said, I'm just not happy. I'm sorry. I said, stay after the show tonight. I want to talk to you.
So I was a wreck doing the show. He was brilliant as usual. Fun with Petula. I mean, it was all just love. Why, you were a wreck in anticipation of this conversation? That's what I was going to have to say to him. Yeah, oh, Lord. You know, because I hate confrontation. Okay. I hate it. I'm just not sure I'm happy on this show. That's what he said. In the meantime...
I called his agent and I said, I'm going to be talking to Harvey, but he wants off the show. I'm going to let him off the show. And he said, well, you can't do this. I said, he can't do this to again. Yes. And he said, well, I said, I'll talk to you later. So Harvey stayed. Now I'm nervous. Now I put on my best Rosalind Russell, Barbara Stanwyck. You inhabit the character. Yeah. I said, I understand you're not happy, so don't come back. You're off the show.
And he said, what are you talking? I said, no, you can't be rude. I said, you're on the show. It's okay. You know, I have a contract. I said, well, you know, we'll just talk about that with, you know, the powers that be, but you can't behave this way. Now he says, well, you started to kind of backpedal. And I said, okay, I'll give you one more chance. You come in to work next week. And when I see you, I want you to be whistling and skipping down the hall. Nice.
Comes Monday. We always had a script reading in my office. Yeah. And I, before... It was a time, and I went to excuse myself to go to the ladies' room, and then the elevator door opened right just before I went into the ladies' room, and Harvey comes out. We both stand there looking at each other for a frozen second. He starts going whistling and skipping down the hall. And so I had a plaque made. And I put it on his dressing room door called Mr. Happy-Go-Lucky. Oh, that's genius.
And I loved him. I mean, we were always close. This was a very rare circumstance. But let's talk about you as a boss. Yeah, because you say you avoided confrontation, right? And maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's generational. I'm not sure. I think so. See, I was married to the producer. Yes. He had produced a Gary Moore show. Okay. You know, Joe. And so he really was the boss. I would come in and I would make suggestions and things like that, but this was the only time I ever...
He didn't know I was firing Harvey. But Carol, did you, like, for example, if there was material that needed punching up or... Now I know exactly where you're going with it. How did this get managed? Well, okay, Sid Caesar or Jackie Gleason would say, come on, guys, this is...
You've got to fix it. You know, I don't like it. I couldn't do that. You couldn't. What I would do, I would call the writers down. If we were doing a sketch and it wasn't working, I would... say, you know, can you help me out here? A little bit. I'm not really feeling this too well. I'm not saying this like a, like, in other words. Help me. As opposed to...
Yeah, so you didn't scold. No, I didn't say, come on, you got to fix this. It stinks. No. No, but I would argue that that approach that you... developed for yourself was certainly a more kind approach, but maybe even a better approach because it really... You are demanding creativity without demanding it. You're locking arms with these guys and saying, we're on the same team. Can you help me out? Help me out. Did I ever tell you a story about Lucy?
Lucky you. Lucky you. I'm so, oh my God. She was on my show this one week and it was just before orchestra rehearsal. So there was a dinner break. So we went across the street to the farmer's market. It was a little Chinese restaurant. And she's knocking back a couple of whiskey sours. Sure. And she says, you know, kid, called me kid. She was 22 years older, so I was a kid. Yeah. She says, you know, it's great you got Joe, you know, to be looking out for you. When I was married to the Cuban,
She said, he did everything. He took care of the scripts. He took care of the camera work. He invented the three cameras. Put them on wheels. Believe me, I know. Yeah. Yeah. And all of that, Desi did it all. He, like, supervised the costuming, this and that. So she said, all I had to do on a Monday was come in and be crazy, silly Lucy. Yeah. Now we got a divorce. Now I'm going to do the Lucille Ball show. She says, so I come in, read the script, and she said...
It was awful. She said, and I didn't know what to do. Desi wasn't there to fix it. So I called for a break. She said, and I went to my office, and I thought, and I thought, and I thought, I've got to be like Desi. And she said, so we went back, I sat down, and in no uncertain terms, I told him, and I became Desi, I just told him what was wrong, I said, got to fix this.
She was confrontational. She took another little sip of her whiskey sour. She said, kid, That's when they put the S on the end of my last name. But I think, I mean, I guess it's a kind of, you took her advice, as it were, and you interpreted it for yourself. And I think that's a great lesson. I'm so glad to hear that you're...
thoughtful approach to making a better show, you know, because it's not always perfect. That first pass at a script is often in need of a lot of work, right? Exactly. By the way, you know, they shot... It's either Renmar or Rowley Studios where they shot the I Love Lucy.
One of those two, I can't remember which one it is because they're both R words. But anyway, that's where we shot the first four episodes of Seinfeld, which I was always just... Oh, wow. Yeah, exactly. It was really cool to be in the same space. Can you, I know I'm asking a lot of questions about your career, but I do have one other question to ask you, and that's about when you first did Carnegie Hall with Julie Andrews, how did that happen?
How did that show come to pass? Well, Julie was a guest on The Gary Moore Show, and we had a finale written for us that we did. Yeah. And it was the first time I've ever seen... a studio audience stand up. And give us a standing ovation. Oh, my. And so the producer... offered a special to CBS, Julian Carroll at Carnegie Hall. They weren't interested, they said, because they see Carroll every week on Gary's show.
And only Broadway knows Julie Andrews. She hadn't done a movie yet. I see. And so they didn't think it would be any good. Okay, so I'm at an affiliate's luncheon for CBS. And I'm kind of brave, and I'm kidding around with some of the CBS vice presidents. And I said, well, I guess if you don't want Julie and me, we could go over to NBC. They have color. I was terrible. Carol!
And they kind of laughed, but they still weren't interested. So the luncheon is over. We leave the building, and it's pouring down rain. And they said, we'll wait and help you get a cab, Carol. And I said... Oh, don't worry. I said, somebody's going to pull up and give me a lift. I swear to God, Julia. Those words were out of my mouth. A beer truck pulled up. Stop it. The guy leaned out and said, hey, Carol, you want a lift? No.
They hoisted me up into the cab of the beer truck. The guy drove me home to Central Park South. I'm opening the door to my apartment. The phone is ringing. Pick it up. It's one of the vice presidents. Why? Because the beer truck guy recognized you? Because a strange man came out, that they recognized him from Gary, and for some reason that triggered them. They said, you know what, let's give him the show.
And, of course, the show was a big hit. It's a fantastic show. I was watching it, and I was watching... The intro number that you do, We Belong Together. Yeah. I love that number. By the way, the dress that you're wearing and she's wearing, of course, I'm watching this in black and white, but I have never in my life seen such beautiful gowns. Gorgeous. But let me tell you what I was struck by. So the lyrics in We Belong Together, you open the bit. You're so London.
I'm so San Antone, right? And you start the sketch just sort of before the song. You say, I don't belong here. I don't belong here. And then off you go and you're singing the song and then you come to We Belong. Together. Together. Yep. The word belong is a word that... It stuck with me because then when you sang your last song for the final episode of The Carol Burnett Show and you changed the lyric.
And you sang, I'm so glad we had this time together. Just to have a laugh or sing a song. But that time. We just get started. But that time you sang, because you make me feel like I belong. Right. And I thought, oh, how... It's funny that you would come up with that. Well, it was a nice... But it was such a... I think you offered us an insight into your love of what you do and the...
And to the feeling that I think we share in performance, which is a feeling of acceptance and belonging. Yeah. And you tapped into that. And aren't we lucky? Oh, very fortunate. Yes. And what's great, too, is that I see it in you and I know it's in me. We are aware of how fortunate we are. Yeah. It's not something that we take for granted. Never.
No, because it could have been otherwise. Absolutely, yeah. And you had all three of your children during the Carol Burnett show? Is that correct? I had the first two before we started. And then you had your last daughter during the run of the show. Right. I don't know too many shows that did what we did. We had a school schedule. Yeah, it's because a mother was at the helm, if you don't mind my saying. Yeah, and we had, it was, well, actually it was the same way with the Gary Moore show.
We would go to work at, we knew what we were going to do. We'd go to work at, start at 10 in the morning. Right. I could take the kids to school. Brilliant. Go to work. And on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays. Ten to three. But we knew everything. We rehearsed. Thursday was blocking day. Yeah. And I'd be home every night in time for dinner.
Except on Friday when we taped. Right. And then we did two shows on Friday, and the girls would come to see the dress rehearsal. We would work three weeks, have a week off. We'd always have a week off at Easter. We'd have two weeks off at Christmas. We had the summers off. Summers off, right. All that. I didn't work more than 20 some odd hours a week. It was almost like a part-time job. Were you able to go home and leave work behind you? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the thing too, we taped.
Our show, we usually do about an hour 15 because we'd go over because I'd do the Q&As. Yes. We'd be out in about two hours. So the audience, it was like they were watching a Broadway show. Yeah. So I never, I wanted to do it like a live show. Right. I never wanted to keep the studio audience waiting because they feed us.
Yes, of course. You need their energy. Totally. And so I would make a bet with the stagehands that I could do a skin out change faster than they could move that couch across the room. I bet you won that bet. Because of theater. Yes. Yes. And then the show ended after 11 seasons, and you called that. Yeah.
Endings are hard. They are. Talk about that. I wanted to leave before they started to flick the lights on and off. No, I hear that. No, I had the same experience both with Seinfeld, with Veep. Yes, but talk about how... Actually, I'm really interested to hear this because, you know, you've had people in your life, dear people in your life, pass.
And you've had shows end. I'm not likening one with the other, but it is another kind of ending, right? Yeah. So how do you, as somebody who's weathered a lot of that, how do you manage endings? what's the alternative yeah right So everything comes to an end. Yeah. And another thing, too, is if you're down, there's always enough.
Then even when you're up, there's a down. So expect, that's life. You know, and just be, as I say, I feel so grateful. Yes. You know, here I am, 90 years old, I'm healthy. The highest of highs and the lowest of lows. Yes. But I'm still here. You are. You're still here. To quote the song. I know. But it's a stone-cold miracle. It is. I feel that. And as I say, and I'm aware of it, I'm grateful. Right. Yeah.
I wanted to thank you, actually, because when your daughter Carrie was suffering from addiction... And you spoke so openly and honestly about that. And I had a sister who passed from— Oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, very tragically. But I appreciate your honesty. And your forthrightness about that issue, because there can be shame associated with it. And addiction is a bear, as you know. So I just wanted to thank you. Well, what was nice.
I mean, we went through hell, no question about it. But she got sober when she was 17. And then she had a career. I know. She had a very good career starting. Yes. At one point, she was in a... movie called Tokyo Pop, which now is a little cult film. Yes. And Marlon Brando called her. And wanted to have a meeting with her about something he was thinking about? Yes.
And she turned him down. Why? I became a stage mother. I said, are you crazy? And she said, well, I did the movie, but I want to do other things. She had music she wanted to do. She was never interested. In making a name for herself. She wanted to write. I see. She eventually wanted to direct. She wanted to sing. She wanted to write music.
She had a running role on Fame. Yes. And she was really on her way. And you had the glorious experience of working on the play. With her. With her. It was her idea. Please. Yeah, that was her idea based on my first book. Yes. And she said, let's just do it for fun, Mom. She wrote, she had a cabin in Colorado and I wrote in, and we would fax scenes back and forth. Yeah. And then my friend, I showed her.
Rough draft to my friend Beverly Sills. Yes. And she read it, and she showed it to Hal Prince, the director. Of course. And he said, I'd like to direct this. I mean, and with your daughter. Yeah, but she didn't live to see. She passed away before we got to Chicago. This is weird. You know, is there something else happening around us that we don't know and can't see and can't understand? I think so. On the plane to Chicago.
I said a little prayer to Carrie because we were breaking it in in Chicago before we go to Broadway. I said, Carrie, let me know. I had to finish the play. Because it was going to be tryouts. I said, let me know you're with me. I need to know. So I got to the hotel. got to my room, and on the coffee table was this huge array of birds of paradise. Carrie had a bird of paradise tattooed on her right shoulder. And there's these flames. And it was from Hal saying...
Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow at rehearsal. Love, Hal. So I called his room, Hal Prince. And I said, how did you know? He said, know what? I said, that these are her. He said, I didn't. He said, I just said, send up something exotic. So Birds of Paradise came. Okay. Whoa. So the next night, my husband and I took Hal out to dinner. And the maitre d' came up with a big bottle of champagne.
And on the label, it said Louise. Louise was my mother's name and Carrie's middle name. And I thought, whoa, this is... And then... Carrie and I always loved rain. Yeah, and rain features in all of your stories I'm going to mention. And opening night in Chicago, it rained. So I had three signs. Beautiful signs. And I felt, okay, Carrie, you're with me. That is just so powerful. That's so touching. Wow. My conversation with Carol Burnett continues after this break.
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Carol, can you talk about your idea of beauty and how it's changed or not as you've gotten older and your approach to yourself and how you feel physically as you've gotten older? What has that journey been like? Interesting. Because I always felt very homely as a kid. I had a beautiful cousin who looked like a baby.
Sharon Stone. And I always felt very plain. And I was. First of all, I'm going to tell you something. You weren't. No, you weren't, Carol. You weren't. I know you say this about yourself, but... Anyway, carry on. One time I remember I was doing the Gary Moore show, and you know the wonderful writer Larry Gelberg? Sure. He was so—at one point— He was quoted as saying, Carol Burnett is almost very pretty. And I wrote back, I said, that's almost very nice of him.
Good for you. That's a great response. That's not a very kind thing to say. No, but it was actually, I thought it was. Almost very pretty. It's kind of not bad. But how do you feel now? Now, I think I'm fine for my age. Are you kidding me? No, I'm fine. I'm happy. I don't have a double chin. No, you don't. And you're physically very fit. Do you exercise?
Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. You walk. Because you were always, I mean, the fact of... Oh, I was always very physical. Yeah. Yeah. I love doing physical comedy. Of course. It's so much fun. Yeah. What about... the work before you do that? I mean, in other words, did you... exercise as a younger person? At one point, I was hooked on yoga for about seven years. I did classes and stuff. And then I had a little exercise class that I taught.
At CBS during lunch hour? No kidding. For a half hour. Yeah. I should have done it. Look, Jane Fonda was later. Tell me about it. I should have thought about it. You're a precursor to Jane Fonda. Yeah, so I did that. Right. Yeah. And what about cognition? Because you're obviously... I mean, give me a break. You're so completely and totally with it. I mean, if you told me you were 35, I'd buy it. No, for real. So what do you attribute that to?
Well, for about over 30 years, 35, 40 years, I was going on the road and doing Q&As. That keeps you sharp. But, I mean, do you do anything else to keep your, I mean, are you a reader? We do crossword puzzles every day. Yeah. And I wordle. I wordle too. Did you do today? Yeah, I got it in two. You did not. Oh, it's because I was lucky with my first word. What was your first word? My first word was crate, C-R-A-T-E.
And it was Carrot today. That's right. So I had a lot of letters that I could play with. Now, not to get too deep into the weeds on Wordle, but I also play it every day. I love it so much. I do too. I play with Allison Janney. Oh, goodness. She's a friend of mine, too. And Charlize Theron. You play with them? Not with them. We Wordle. Back and forth. Back and forth. Oh, my God. I'd like to get in on that Wordle game. Okay. I'm going to give you myself my number. Okay.
So do you always use crate as your opening word? That was my question. I used to do that a lot. And then sometimes I vary, like with audio, you know, with all the vowels. You get that. And a Jew. I know. I used a Jew for a long time. Now I'm into Arise. Oh. I don't know. It's done me well, except today I got carrot and five, not two.
Well, the other day I did a six. I mean, you know. Was it snafu? Snafu was one of the words. Snafu was hard. Hard. I didn't have good letters for that one. Yeah, right. Do people know what we're talking about? Well, you know, we can edit all of this crap out. But I mean. Back to you, if I may. So as it happens, I've spoken to many different women doing this podcast here who have had three marriages. You're one of those people as well, but you are in the fine company of...
Isabel Allende, Jane Fonda, and Darlene Love. Oh, wow. So what's the trick? What is it about the third marriage? How did this? Well, you've got to get it right then. Also being old enough to, you know, you've been around the block a few times. You know what you want. You know what makes you happy. Yes. You know. Yes. So you did it. I did it. Yeah. We've been 21 years now. Congratulations. That's phenomenal.
And how did you meet each other? We worked together. Oh. He's a musician. Oh. And I was doing a show in Long Beach, and he was the music contractor for the orchestra. And that's how we met. Oh, that's nice. How do you keep the romance alive? Is that easy? As long as you have a sense of humor. that applies to everything but but i totally hear you that answers that question done and done oh god um
So I'm trying to think, what else do I need to talk to you about? I mean, I just love you so much, I can barely... think. But let me ask you a couple of sort of little brief questions, if I may. Is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21? No. Nothing? No, I don't think if I gave myself some advice, I wouldn't be where I am now. Oh, Carol. I haven't thought of that, but I think that might be it. That's a good answer, Carol.
Yeah, that's a great answer. You know, you had to go through. You had to go through it. Dejection, again, certain kinds of sorrows, happiness, sorrow, happiness, so forth. So I don't know what would have happened if I would go back and give myself some advice. I see. Yeah, you wouldn't be where you are. So I think I know the answer to this question, but is there something you would go back and say yes to? No, but I think there are a few things I'd say no to. Oh, really?
Certain choices I made in career. Really? Yeah. In a way, I look back and think I was foolish in trying to please everybody. Yes. I was a people pleaser. I see. Quite a bit. I didn't want to... Ruffle feathers. And finally, it's nice to know that no can be a complete sentence. Okay. So this has come up. In another interview with Jane Vonda. Really? Yes. She said exactly the same thing. No kidding. Yes. Can you believe it? It comes with age. It comes with age, and it's such a good answer. Yeah.
No. No. There's no I'm sorry after it. And it's not going to ruin anybody. That's right. It's okay. Right. Let me ask you this. Is there something you want me to know about aging? I'm 62. What you don't look at, that's what you should know about aging. I wasn't fishing for a compliment. I really, really mean that. Is there something you would like me to know as I'm, you know, Jane Fonda? talks about her life in three acts, the first, the second, and the third act, right?
She's 85. And when she entered her third act, she decided to do a life review and really think about what the intention of her third act would be. But here's the remarkable thing. Here you are, wonderful, beloved Carol Burnett, and you are entering your fourth act. And so I wonder... I wonder what your intention is as you enter this next decade. If you have one, if you don't, that's fine. My intention is to keep on trucking, you know. staying as healthy as I can, I'm not...
anxious that I have to keep working to prove anything. I've done that. But if something comes along that interests me, I'll do it. But I am not... worried about what if nothing comes along, then I'm fine. I'm okay with it. I did a few things recently, you know, with Better Call Saul. Amazing, amazing performance. They were wonderful to work with. And then I just finished Palm Royale with...
Kristen Wiig and Allison and Laura Dern. Yes. And that's coming out in the fall, I think. We don't know exactly yet. I didn't expect to do anything after Better Call Saul, but then this came along, and it's not only a good script, but to work with those women, I'd be crazy to turn it down. So I had a wonderful time doing that.
But if that's it, that's it. I'll be fine. I'll do my crosswords and my wordle. Yeah. Breathe that. And I have my husband and my cat. You have your husband, who's younger than you, by the way. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What's that like? Lovely. I don't have to take care of him. He can take care of me. Oh, that's nice, Carol. Yeah. That is good. Yeah. That's really nice. Well, I don't know what to say except thank you. Oh, thank you, honey. Well, you are so sweet, but I have to tell you.
I think you are one of the greatest comedic actresses of our time. Oh, Carol, thank you. You are just so honest and funny and truthful. It all comes out of truth. You're not trying too hard. You just are. Thank you. That means totally everything coming from you. And I really, honestly, your... What you have done with your life has informed my life more than I can articulate in this conversation. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Carol. Love you. Love you, too. Thank you for being here. Complete. Yay!
So for our listeners on Wives and Me, normally after we have these remarkable conversations, I call my mom. and I tell her about the conversations. But we thought for this final episode, we'd have my mom listening in like a fly on the wall to the conversation with Carol. So I don't have to recap. We can just... download how stunned we are by the magical quality of Carol Burnett. Is that how you feel, Mom? Oh.
Well, of both of you, I have to say that ending. I know. I couldn't believe it. No. You know, parents think their children are, and they know their children are the best, the best of the best. But when somebody else agrees, it's just like a magical moment. It was so wonderful. So many things she said. I just wanted to say. Oh, of course. I mean, there is so much of truth in this that she said and so much truth in performance and truth in life.
that just got put on the table, it's overwhelming. I have to say, I am really overwhelmed with this. It was almost like giving too big a dose of a truth drug. at some point. I never had a tooth drug. But you know what I mean? It's just like, all of a sudden, everything seemed to roll away. And it was just like, you were just talking to your soul or something. It was so...
Perfect. Yeah, she's a dear person. I mean, in terms of her energy, Mom, and her mentation, her physicality, I mean, she's like you, frankly. I mean, she's completely with it. Well, I was thinking when all the times she was saying her wonderful stories and telling her wonderful tales and being how wonderful she is. And I was thinking to myself, I mean...
When people used to be 90, they were in wheelchairs and they were wheeled around. They wheel them out, parties, and then they'd hiccup and then take them back in. That was what they did with old people. And old people now are just out. I mean, when she was talking, I was remembering the Carol Burnett show and the cast. She was so right about the whole cast.
meant that they were all so we loved them so much and what i remember when she would do something funny she would sort of look bewildered a little bit and like that you should look around to people so everything she's always had this sense of Being with the connection was always there. And that connection was something I could feel between you two in this also. And it was, I think, the ability to connect.
is a huge thing. I think maybe particularly in comedy, but in life, it's critical. Do you not think? I do. In E.M. Forrester's novel, Howard's End, The last words of the novel are only connect. I just think that people that can do that and really care about each other. It's a kind of prayer. It's bigger than you are. It's you know that you are just part of the part of the story. And I'm just.
I was so touched by this. I can't tell you. Yeah. And at the beginning, when you were just so touched to be with her, just sitting there. Please, I thought. Yeah. But I was. I mean, appropriate to be with somebody of that stature and that's had that duration and has that kind of skill and gift and talent. and durability and to be sitting with her and her sitting there with you and all of your achievements and and at your age it's well It was a real duo. It was real duo. I love that.
What a goddamn—I mean, shit, I need a drink. I'm exhausted. Or bedtime. I need bedtime. Well, you've earned a drink at bedtime, whatever it is that you've earned, honey. Really, I am so happy to have witnessed this. Truly for a mother to witness her daughter in a situation like this with somebody like Carol Burnett, who is. who is praising her, who understands your own daughter. The unity that happened, well, it's something I will always, always remember. And it's such a tribute to both of you.
I have to say, and in my own way, I felt that it was, I mean, I feel connected to the tribute also. I mean, I feel connected in giving you a tribute but feeling the tribute that those of us that have loved our children have received. Thank you. I want to tell you, this was a treasure. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, I loved it too. Okay, mommy. Love you tons. Love you, love you. Love you tons and so happy.
Now, I'm going to go out of here. Everything's gone to crap here. Oh, here we go. Bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Goodbye. Love you, Mommy. Love you. Love you. Love you. Bye-bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content, and our VP of weekly production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever.
you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Cohen Sunderland, Will Schlegel, and of course my mom, Judith Bowles. Well, we've had a great run, dear listeners. And because this is our last episode of the season and because it takes a lot of people to make a show like this, I wanted to peel back the curtain and quickly thank all of the many wise women who helped make this podcast possible.
Our rock star marketing team includes Lizzie Breyer-Bohman, Sahar Baharlou, Rose Dennis, Amber Girardi-Robinson, Lena Martinez, S.K. Satterwhite, and Vanessa Ullman. Thanks to our friends in business development, Don Gunderson. Nothing is possible without the folks in operations and finance. And a very special shout out to Rochelle Green and Jackie Danziger. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.