So in my conversation with Ina Garten, I talked about my grandma, Diti's insanely delicious peanut butter cookies. They're very sentimental to me because it's my grandma. I still have grandma, Diti's handwritten recipe on an old index card. To celebrate Mother's Day, we printed that exact card in grandma, Diti's own handwriting onto a soft cotton tea towel. This is not your average tea towel. You can bake the cookies from the recipe, print them out.
You can print it on the towel and then clean up with the same tea towel when you're done. It's a tea towel dooblay. It's part of our Wiser Than Me merch collection to check it out head to WiserthanMeShop.com. Lemonada.
I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York and early on I learned to ride a tricycle and I was good at that try. I wrote it in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, you know, just imagine. So being on a racetrack up and down and up and down, although as I say this, I am now remembering the shining and of course not so fun in that movie.
But in reality is in fact a lot of fun. But I lived in the city and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, eight. And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight. But I kind of missed that window and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels.
I was always unsure of myself on a bike and I still am really, I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school. And so I was just kind of fucked and I just didn't play sports. I went to an all-girls school and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis and gymnastics. I did not excel at any of these things.
At a girl's school, you know, the sports girls were popular. And I think that's one of the great things about an all-girls school. Women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls and all my best friends were athletics. So I wanted in on that.
So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. I was a big meat. Is that what it would be a gymnastics meat? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balanced beam that I practiced and practiced. So I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending I'm all good core, but or whatever. And there is a crowd there.
And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just, I mean, just telling you this right now is making my palm sweat. I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up. You know, in the movie version of this, I improvise this great routine and, you know, everybody applaud, but in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam.
It was like less than one out of 10, by the way. That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute. Here's another one. Okay. So we had two gym teachers, Mrs. Nevet, who everybody loved, and Mrs. Moody, who was English. And this is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE and it was tennis day and all of a sudden, I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes, girls, cover your eyes.
And a bunch of boys were streaking. Anybody remember streaking, running around naked. It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course. But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were. This was an all-girl school. So I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streeters. So like, anyway, four boys go running by and I did just as Mrs. Moody instructed. I covered my eyes.
But I remember it was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great comfort behind victory. It's not a championship game. This is the kind of sports memory that I have. And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now. I mean sports and exercise are a huge part of my life and our family life is totally sporting. My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut. He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite,
or a foiling, or snowboarding, or something. And I work out literally every day and I love it. And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything and he'd throw fits about the mits and the New York Giants and the Knicks. And I paid no attention at all except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting.
But then my kids started playing high level sports and I started to see what it meant to them and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan and I fell in love with college basketball and, um, Abercadaire, I'm a sports fan.
You know, in our current time when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated and where so many things seem like lose, lose proposition, here are sports, which despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues and, you know, sports always come down to a definable contest.
There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B movie cult film, the driver, Brewster, and who's always so good. I love Brewster. And he plays this rough cop and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened? Final score.
I love that. The clarity of that. God is that appealing. No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation, what's not to love? That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfuss and this is Wiser than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than Me.
Okay, let me set the stage here in 1966 when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis. Women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any I've the college. They couldn't run the Boston marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands.
Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male co-signer. And they could play any sport they wanted just none professionally except golf. And that's in 1966, not 1866.
Then, along came Billie Jean King, 39 grand slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the presidential medal of freedom. Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle of the Sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in.
Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets might I add. She's a sports icon. She's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon. And let's face it, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billie Jean King.
Hi, hi, after that, I'm going to stop. Don't stop. You got to keep going. You got to keep going. I don't know. I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet. You know, you haven't even started. It's a lot of energy. You know, some well, so speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say I love it. I never I'm 80 at just an 80. Oh, last November. November 22.
But how old do you feel? I don't know what's 80 smells to feel like. I every I always ask myself like when I was 60 when I was 50 when I was 40 when I was 30 when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really how is my health, I think. Right. Yeah. Your health and how you feel and how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally?
You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week. Psychotherapy. Psychotherapy. Oh, absolutely. I don't need physical therapy. Well, a lot of my wife got me out during COVID to hit to hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder out everything. And I said, okay, let's try because I just love it so much.
I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week now. She gets, you know, a lot of us never want in the world and doubles and she still plays a lot. So she's she's younger. She's in her late 60s. So she hits the ball right to me. It's just amazing. I meet people who are playing and that we have a 100 and under even event category for people that are 100 and under.
And it is hilarious. You know what shot they use all the time is a draw shot because you can't move and it's hilarious. But wait a minute. Where men? Who's the old? I don't know who the oldest one is. I don't know. I've got to find out. No, I don't know. You got to find out. I will find out somebody's got to be in their 90s, right? Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no. They're just like probably.
98, 99 in there. Yeah, for sure. Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jane? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body? How does that work? Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now. But my brain slower too. I think I've always been in tune with my body. Uh huh. My brother. I just saw everybody knows you a lot of people do know this. A lot of people do not have a younger brother.
He's five years, almost five years younger, four years, all of a month. Randy Moffitt. Moffitts are a birth name and he played professional baseball for 12 years. Most of those with this, the San Francisco Giants. But the third word we learned was ball. You know, the mommy ball, daddy ball. We just, we are insatuated. They can roll it on the ground. They can throw in the air. We didn't care. And then if you, as you get older, these are realized it's science and art together.
And you want to be playing in front of people, your performer. It's so much fun. It's very expressive. It's like, I love dance. I love ballet. I love all that I like to. My son, Charlie, was a D1 athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still, by the way, his first word was also ball. Uh oh.
And, uh, right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive and she let him bounce a ball during class. Smart. Smart, right? Very. So he was able to concentrate as a result. Tracy shout out to Tracy. That was brilliant. I'm going to do that. Yeah. Brilliant. That's very interesting. Because in school, I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl.
D-moted with grades. Yeah. I got unsatisfactory. He said, a sass factory in fourth grade because Miss, Miss, Paul, Czech said that I had done too well in sports and, you know, kind of like braggio show, I guess, to her. I didn't say anything. I just did it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now that would never to a boy, he would be honored and. Yeah. He would be lauded for it. Correct. That's the difference growing up always getting negative feedback.
For doing what I wanted to do. But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory? They just let it go. They said, just ignore it. Don't worry. Just keep going. My, my mother didn't want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, Oh, you know, and I said, no, Mommy. I don't know what that means. I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier, happier.
But my dad understood totally. He was, basketballs are first love. So he was a basketball player. And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA. And he didn't because there wasn't any money in it. And he's very risk adverse. That generation with the depression, World War II. But now he came home and became a firefighter.
I love that he was a firefighter. Oh, God. Yeah, I love that too. I loved it. But it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back. So he was a proper hero. Right. Well, to me, he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah.
And he told me to go for it. And everybody else around me is saying, huh? They didn't really care. But I really wanted to change the world through sports through my sport. I know you did. And that's really what, you know, it's. I wanted us to be a pro sport. We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible. I used to just go crazy. Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit. And you are 80 years old. You are.
I am fit for an 80 year old, but I don't, you know, I don't give me a break. Oh, I'm also lifting again. I'm also doing a lot of weight work. This is. Okay. So that's my question. What's your exercise regime besides playing tennis two to three times a week with Ilana? What else are you doing? Rlifting weights. I started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year. I instead of doing it sporadically. I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been.
But we're still working full time. It's not in work itself and traveling like we do. Yeah, I think also keeps me fit. Also keeps my mind active solving challenges, not problems. And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way. There's something. Well, it must be like you and you're acting. I always wonder what actors go through in terms of what?
Like the pressure that's on you like they say, let's go. You know, and you have to start the scene. And of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with sign filled and others that you didn't work live because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other.
Well, sometimes we did, but having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call this is the same. It's the same. Racing through your body when you're working. Yes. I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that. You know, I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver, you know, that's in place. And it can paralyze you, but it can also be a great fuel. And I usually use it for fuel to tell you.
I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have a saying pressure is a privilege. I know I love that saying. It is a privilege. It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you've done and continue to do. And what I do. And what I did. And you know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you. Oh, come on. Who's giving up? No, there's ageism involved. There really is. Talk about that.
All right. Let's take commercials on television. This is take commercials. And not just television, obviously, it's everything now. Yeah. I'd like people to when they watch commercials to really pay attention to who's in them. Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30. They don't give us the same opportunities. Right.
Not many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman. And they'll say she's such a great role model for women. Now go to a male. If a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model for men. He's a great role model. I mean, he'll know it's like everyone can be a role model for somebody. If that's what the person likes. Like for me, Althea Gibson was my first hero.
And she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that way. I thought of her as the number one player. And I want, if you can see it, you can be it. Right. So I saw her live when I was 13 and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh, my gosh. I'm going to have to be that I'm going to have to practice so hard. Oh, my God.
But you knew you were going to do it. Yeah. Well, I certainly hope to I of course, I that was my goal since the time I was 11 to be number one in the world. There was no question. But still still to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that. She was number one. And if you can see it, you can be it. You know how good you have to be and what made her great.
I'm just so struck by the realization that you have when you were 12, that me, you were saw that so many people are being excluded from tennis and you decided to work on changing that. No, it wasn't tennis. It was life. It was like watching Little Rock and like the Little Rock 9 or watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids. And I asked my dad, why is that? That's ridiculous.
He says, well, it's the South. And because it's something California, that never happened to me. I mean, I, you know, if it didn't matter. And that really bothered me. Yeah. Of course. And you also noticed that it was like only white people playing tennis, right? When you went to that country. Absolutely. I just everybody wore white clothes. Everybody played with white balls and everybody played with white. Yeah.
That's not right. This belongs to everyone is such a great sport. Although I didn't have the know how 12 years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them. But they were they formed their own association, the ATA in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. And just like if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors.
Yeah. And well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950. And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s. And that's when she won everything. And she won the US Nationals. Now, they would be the US Open. And she was the first to win without her. There wouldn't have been an Arthur Ashe or Zena Garrus and or Serena or Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example. It's time for a quick break, but don't worry. There's more with Billie Jean King in just a bit.
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But what I'm so struck by is that you were so sensitive to sort of the disenfranchise at a very young age. And I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had? Where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family? I think my peers were good to each other. A kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related. Not to say it was perfect or anything. God knows that. But they get into it, but not.
They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader of the captain. And I was on a bicycle committee and I was only supposed to be the secretary. But they ended up always saying, you lead. You do this. I go, no, no, you do it.
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We met bicycle committee. We had a plane in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area. We had to take care of them. We had to put them in these racks. You know, you got to just do the right thing and all that at the school. Keep them in the right place. I love that. So I was on that committee. And then, you know, but I was always I was always pushed into leadership positions.
Finally, in Tennessee, even when we're older, you know, the player said, no, you're the one. You're the one. I go, no, no, no, why not you one? You know, typical girls, you know, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. I don't know where do you want to go. Right. So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy go, where do you want? He goes, I want to go here. We go, great. Someone made a decision.
Because we're taught always to think about somebody else. Okay. Always take care of the other. So anyway, the players pushed me. Finally, I just remember one night, just kind of day dreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know what? I'm going to not only accept this. I'm going to thrive on it because I'm meant to, you know, I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing? I'm meant to do this.
And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we or you can't be I, you have to be us, you know, or you have to include others in your state. It's always about what can I do to help the people have a better life?
How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first. And that's what makes me tick is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love like starting the Women's Sports Foundation. I founded it 50 years ago. We have our 50th anniversary that you're I am so stoked. We've given out over a hundred million dollars of just helping kids, especially girls of color.
Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX. Those are the things that that mattered to me a lot. Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader? Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? It's you're always good as the team is. Also relationships or everything they really are.
Yeah, right. It starts from that. But like when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts? What would be an example of that Billie Jean? Well, the thing I love the most probably in tennis is World Team tennis started in 1974. Ilawn and I ended up running it over time over the last part of it. We sold it to billionaires because we thought we really need more money in this.
If we're going to do it right and they wanted it. So we sold it to them, but you know, they let it go eventually. And so I was very upset with myself and I thought, God, if I could start over, it's so easy in hindsight. Sure. There wasn't the money in 1974 that there is now. Now people are investing in women sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us. They think it's a great investment now for the very first time.
Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity. Yes, they do. It is, by the way. It is. We're over 100 years late. I mean, it's like it is really a lot of work in long term investment. But it's worth it because it gives women and girls the platform they didn't have. And to help these kids, I keep telling them every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world.
You, if you decide, whatever makes you happy to do things, but look at how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much. And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards. Yes, we do. We need more women on boards. We need more women positions of leadership. We need more women period making decisions. Oh, yeah.
Which, oh, God, this reminds me, by the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the 70s. Correct. Can you tell us that story about how you convince the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? Yes. Ilana, my wife. She's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. It is amazing. Okay. That's, by the way, an incredible fact.
But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part. Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, okay. I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call. If you know me well, I'm very actually shy and have a hard time calling people.
Okay. I have, I do have a problem believing what you just, what you're going to ask Ilana. She'll tell you. I thought it up. Okay. And also it's not about me here. It's about others. I'm good. I'm good. One is about the team. Okay. Yeah, I hear that. Okay. And I called her and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you and ask, it's easy. Great. So we talked for four hours.
I listened to her and I went back to the woman. I said, you guys really should let her play. I'm according, I've gone to the dog. I've done some homework. And they said, no. And I said, okay, I hear you. And I had this thing with the woman that always used to work. I finally figured it out, which is. I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks, I would cut the time down really tight short. So it's like a sample.
Yeah. And like it won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that. Okay. So she comes on the tour. And within three or four days that come out, she is so nice. She is so great. Yeah. Because they were worried about the locker room. You know, there's a lot of things to go through your mind that we that were so ignorant. We don't understand.
Oh, they loved her. They were fine. They were fine. That was fine. Now it's very different though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes. And should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people were very infatic about it that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion is my first want. And so I don't want anyone to be excluded. So we got to figure this out. So yeah, we got to figure it out. Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.
So you've spent so much of your life making the world as you continue to do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent? Oh, for sure when I was younger. But I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal. Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. That I have to. It's part of my job.
I say I was very good then. But then you know, I have an eating disorder. And I'm a binge eater. Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy. I still think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the ozumbics of the world. Yeah, right. It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it. Do you want to? I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy.
I would like to lose it slowly, but the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said it hasn't quite edited your mind. Because I've taken a few injections now. I went, whoa, that's interesting. Because with an eating disorder, I have like two voices in my head sometimes that argue. And what do they say? It's two sides. Let's say I want a quarter of an ice cream. One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what.
And the other side says, no, don't do that. It's not healthy. You know, you don't need it. You're not going to miss it. The other side goes, screw you. I'm having this ice cream. So I have this discussion that goes on in my head. And sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting. Because this is what we talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question because if it does do that, quiet the voices.
Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it, now I'm on it. Because that would be really great. Because that gets exhausting and tiring. And I don't want to fight over these things. You know, it's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day. It's just different moments. And then I say, I'm more stressed. Is that why this is happening? No. That doesn't follow it all.
Nope. I've tried that. So the point is, I still get it. It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention. That's the main thing. When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Take really? I'd say, yeah. And when I was around 50. And I was going through all my sexuality stuff, like, oh, my God, I was a mess. And that I think caused a lot of my eating disorder as well. So what happened at 50? I went to Rindfrew in Philadelphia back in 95-ish.
And I went to therapy. And I lived there for six weeks. And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. I would go to, there's also couples you have to go to, which Elana about fainted. She's what? She goes, what? But wait a minute. Rindfrew is an eating disorder clinic. Is it? Yes. I'm going to go live there. Okay. Yeah. And every Friday, you have family. Oh, boy.
It's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different, like, movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever. Did your parents come? They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once. And how did that go? It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me. And he's so cute. He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him and I go, Dad, I'm exactly like these girls here.
What did he start laughing? I started laughing because we always had a sense, you know, we'd always laugh at anything. We started howling. And I go, there's a single thing there. No, he, because he thinks I'm fine. He thinks I'm great. And I go, Dad, I go, Dad, I'm just like them. I'm, I'm struggling. And he goes, okay, honey, I hear you. Or says he'd call.
When things were good, it was when it was Billy Jane. If I came for the door, I knew I was a big trouble. And what about your mom? What was that? I had a harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I am bisexual in the beginning. I don't know. But no, and I noticed you call your mother mommy. I call my mother mommy, too. And I love calling my mother mommy. She loves me.
She also loved hearing it and receiving it. Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it? It's like a big hug. It's just adorable. It's like a big hug. That's exactly right. And my boys call me mommy and I love it. I love mommy. I call my mom mommy up to the end of her life. Yeah. And you call your daddy daddy, right? I call him daddy. Yeah. I call him daddy. Yeah. Yeah.
Obviously, I'm 80. They're not alive anymore. Unfortunately, I wish they were there. They were I got my brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them. They never really ask us if we won. You know, so many parents go, did you win? Did you win? Did you win? Did you win? I know. They go, how'd your day go? Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I said, I lost. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best?
I said, of course, I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough. Yeah. You're lucky. Yeah. I am. I'm more lucky. Well, I have to say, are there some that I mentioned to you? Yes. He was a basketball player when he was young. And if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars and stuff. I love it.
Because he would be screaming and writhing in the back seat if they lost. I should have been with him. We would have had a great time. He was his stay. I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the back seat. I'm telling you. So how would you decide you wanted to be an entertainment? Can I ask you this? Yeah. You can ask me anything. Yeah. I'd rather ask you questions, really.
I just always wanted to be an actor just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing. Yeah, you were because your mother explained that. You asked her, how on Ziya's a girl? Remember? And one of your interviews, when you talked to her and she said you were dialog, you had dialog going and you had this going. She said you were always basically acting, but she didn't say that when we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time.
And I would get I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during nap time. Yeah. So you like dancing too. Well, I like performing. So my nap time dance was it seemed to be a big hit among the nursery school students. It would have been great. Oh my god. I remember kindergarten. That's what we're supposed to have these little naps. I'm like, huh? I'm about to play. Can I go play basketball? Can I go play baseball? So I'm going, can I go?
You know, I have to tell you when I was in I didn't play much tennis because I the one thing that I get. I get when I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me. But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade. And they gave awards out at the end and they gave me miscongeniality. I can't see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious. And when I listen to you how and how you feel when you perform.
It's how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all. Yeah, right. I want to be where I am. I love it. I love the I want. In fact, I love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt. I think we are just so out of it because you know, they keep I keep saying you guys. Everybody want. I said, you're talking to 40 year olds. You're talking to 50 year olds.
I said, what about the seven, 10 year olds? Their concentration spans seven seconds now. I mean, yeah, no kidding. We got to do. We got to do. But I've wanted this forever for our sport. Okay. Cause I grew up in the other sports. Like how many hey, how about have you know. And Mubbel and went backwards. They go, oh no, we're going to go back to all white. What?
I said, oh great. So now you turn all white clothes. Yeah. Oh, I know no predominantly white anymore. So so I turn it on and go, oh great. Both people have white at each end. Okay. Great. Who's who? It's ridiculous. We're just ridiculous. We're out the lunch. How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to. You know, I'm just going to keep trying. Right. Because we have the Billy Jean King Cup, which is the World Cup of women's tennis.
Now they renamed it after me. And now I'm we're involved in that. And we want to make that, you know, like the soccer World Cup. It's the World Cup of tennis and the men's and Davis Cup. And we're working with them. And I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience.
Because when you perform as you know, everything is about your audience. And that tennis court is our stage that when I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby. Give me the ball. You know, type of feeling. And so when so when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think or athletes. They think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience.
Our job is to make the audience have a great day, great moment. And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great. That was whatever. And I want to go back or I want to take up this or I want to do that. You know, it's like we are there for them. And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them. And I'm like, oh my God. You're so I, I, I, it's we them. You know, I don't know. That's how I think.
So can we just let's talk about for a second female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men? I've never felt equal to men. Uh-huh. Talk about that, Billie Jean King. I've made let me let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently. I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal level. But every single day I have to deal with some misogyny.
If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background, you know. And yet people who are in the know sometimes I'll say, hey, bud, you should move over. You're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally. But I don't we're saying class citizens all the time. Yeah.
And pay in attention. The money we make is always less. That's why I want women sports to do well because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job though. It's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this. But the way the law, what you start, how you started the program is exactly what the challenges.
You know, not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing and also right in 1966, actually. Title nine hadn't happened. Title nine happened in 72. So I didn't get a scholarship. I didn't get paid to go to call. I worked two jobs. And nobody gave I think it'd been reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school and a school to college on a scholarship.
And the guys didn't I guarantee everybody be absolutely crazed that the men don't. Right. When the men don't get something they go crazy. Well, they got they need to do that more and more for us. And they're listened to you know, it's funny. I was talking to my friend Paul about this just yesterday and we're saying you know, it's interesting how many times in conversation just in social conversation. If a man starts speaking and holding forth, right.
Yeah, everyone right. Everyone shuts up and including myself by the way, which I'm now as I say this very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken. Well, that makes sense that he's low viding. Right. That's too big a word for me. But doesn't it a good. No, it's not a good word. That doesn't that totally describe what it is. But this what happens in boards.
A woman will have an idea she comes up with it. But until the guy says exactly the same thing she did they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea. Even though the woman is right at earlier and they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it. I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course there's misogyny. Well, entertainment. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit for it.
I had to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on. And I got big time push back despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience. Yeah, you're and you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers at least of the show. Exactly. And I got push back from studios, from various other producers. I mean, it was a, it's infuriating. And it's also sometimes it's, it's just I'm not going to lie.
It's intimidating. Yeah, it is. You know, because there is that little voice that says, oh, really, should do I not deserve this? Am I wrong? I'm asking, you know, I hope you don't get that that much anymore. That part. No, I don't. I don't, but it has been there. I don't look how much you want. I mean, we'd say when in sports, I mean, you know, all the in these and the awards.
Yeah. I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time. I just, yeah, because sometimes you can't, you can't. You just have to keep quiet, because you're not going to win. You know that too. There's certain times you go, okay, I'm going to have to let this one go. I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go. We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after the super quick break. Stay tuned. I'm going to have to let this one go. I'm going to have to let this one go.
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That's code wiser 50 at factor meals dot com slash wiser 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next box while your subscription is active. Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay. So it's 1973. That's Roe v Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era.
And women are in a real fight for equality at this time and you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right? And he challenges you to an internationally televised matched the battle of the sexes.
And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret court. So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was. It was huge. And you played him and thank God, oh my God, I am so happy you won that Billie Jean. So my, that was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because title nine had just been passed a year before. Yeah.
We were in our third year of women's professional tennis. It was very crucial that I went because we had our tour. And I think if I lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhanced what we were trying to do.
Also men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on a tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom. That's just for tennis. But for society, finally in 75, we are allowed to get a credit card on our own. Yeah, credit card on our own would be. Yeah, congratulations. But what it did is it peaked the interest of people. Both genders are all, all genders would say now, but then both genders, men and women.
And women, it really helped their self confidence. I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me. And then they go, you know what? I've been wanting a raise for 10 years. I finally have the courage to ask for it. You know, I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need. Right. We are taught, do not go there. Okay. Do not ask. And they did.
Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the. How did that work in your head as you were actually playing? Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out. I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down and picturing myself making every shot. I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that.
I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay. I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused. I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot running every shutdown. I picture myself getting every servant, everything. And but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before.
And meet all the security guards. I meet all the administrators. I meet everybody there. And nothing is an astradome. Nothing is worse than not is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody. I went in the stands and went up to the top and the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare. I really big on preparation.
I think process is just how you when you stay in the now you stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting aren't you in the present. Totally. And when you don't do well, we're not. Right. In that sense, it's like a meditation. Correct. It's just a singular focus, right? Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present. I call it in the now. Do you meditate by the way I do meditate. Yes.
Every day probably. Yeah, I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds, even help. Yeah. And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down. That's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about you get 90 seconds. So take take a part of that and just meditate. Just get just get your breathing down. Get you know here. Just be. Just be.
And yes, I can do that. But I can compartmentalize very quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me.
I also knew that if I were going, if this were going to be my life to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles. If off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that to me is winning more than ever winning a match against Bobby Riggs. But by the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles.
I'm not finished yet. I know you're not. Okay. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You. So it sounds like I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person and certainly is a tennis player, but also as a business woman and as a leader, you have a sense of let's get it done. Let's win this thing.
Yeah, I guess you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation right now and the generations that will follow that gives them opportunity, it gives them hope, it gives them. And then gets scholarships just helps them be a better player, a better person, better human being. Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete, you're done early. So what do you do with the rest of your life?
You're like, seeers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever forever. We know that at a very young age, we cannot do that. Okay. So what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.
Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though. So this is from I have a niece who's a D3 athlete and Emery play soccer. Emery's great. Yes, great. And I texted her. Her name is Grace and I texted her yesterday. And I said, Grace, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow.
And I said, do you have any questions? And she said the following to your point. She said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because you know, I think she feels, you know, sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.
Well, there's two things. Okay, that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport, if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Edwooler and I, you know, are mentor Edwooler to the president of Dupont and CEO.
And dear friend who just passed he and I said, I need three things for graduations. But I need three things I can give them that'll help them the rest of their lives. You know, I want to do this. I want this to make it simple easy.
The three things are and they do not have to be in this order relationships or everything. So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can get to know everyone really enjoy them as human beings get to know them because you never know. Okay, you just don't know. And it's fun. I think it's fun. Well, I love people so works for me. But the second one to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn.
Like technology for my age group is rough. Okay. So I'm always asking that year old come over here help me. Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovative and that means in real life and in work or whatever you do.
And those three things I think as I go through each day, I know I hit on those at least one of them every day. This is great wisdom what you're imparting. I mean, for real. Do you think that'll help Gracie though? That's why I'm. I know. I know. I really appreciate it. I'm going to tell her. But being in a sport she can stay in the sport in another different capacity. She loves it like this and want to leave it. Socker. But more importantly, what else does she want to do.
But those three things I think will cover just about any direction she wants to go. Okay. So now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21. 21. Let me think where I was. Okay. 21's right before I won Wimbledon and all that. I probably didn't understand enough.
At that time about being my authentic self. Like who am I? I didn't know who I was yet. And nowadays I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today.
Not to say it wouldn't be difficult. Sure. Or whatever because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT communities having a harder time again. I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings.
First we all bleed red. Yeah. Doesn't matter what color our skin is doesn't matter what. Yeah, how we self identified sexually. It doesn't matter that we beat that we just start. I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a I go blank. I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing who this person is.
And that I really always want to think the best of them first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole nother discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with this being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them. And we're all biased.
But the important thing is do it gut check when we are. I always go stop start with nothing first to speak kind and good unless they prove to you that they're just bad news or bad news. Is there anything before we go? Is there anything that you want me to know about aging? You know what I found I think aging has been in some ways the greatest in some ways is tough.
Tough physically there's no question. And also your mind you're you know mentally whether I don't want to get dementia for instance. I'm scared of that because my parents had it. Things like that. But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What and that is emotionally I am so happy compared to the my young days. I cannot tell you really. But it's but I've worked at it through therapy through thinking through just going through tough times but I just emotionally am in such a great place now.
Oh my god. I hope you are now too but I don't know where everyone knows I am. No I am I'm in a very you know touch wood. I'm in a very good place. Sounds like you're yeah. Yeah I am I totally am and I'm but I'm so happy that you say that and you're not actually you know because I'm this show we speak to older women.
About their wisdom and that's you're not the first person who has said that there's something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age which is a complete blessing right. Yes and also when you're older you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person.
You have perspective you've lived longer things don't bother you as much right that's why kids love their grandparents so much right because the grand pericots yeah and they say oh my god I got to tell them this but oh my god and then you tell them they go okay. And they go yeah you're not a Saturday no are you okay whereas a parent what you know it's so yeah a lot of hand-ranging yeah that's right yeah completely yeah they're more understanding.
It's true it's completely true I can't thank you enough for talking with me today I really enjoyed every second of this conversation. Yeah me too it's been great I really appreciate say hi to your team of people because everything starts with team really. Totally tell them thanks again for all their help we're really appreciate and good luck in your lives go for it. Oh my god Billie Jean King that woman is just so impressive that human is impressive.
Oh my mom is going to love to hear about this one it's time to get around the zoom call. Hi mommy. Hi love how are you good is rainy rainy here is it raining there I wish no it's full sun but we talked to Billie Jean King today. Wow and you would just love this woman Billie Jean King mom it was just she is such a positive human being.
Let's talk about the Bobby rigs match because you know you originally wanted to have this match with her Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby rigs. And then Margaret court who was another professional tennis player at the time and she did play him and she lost. And so then when Bobby rigs came to Billie Jean and say now I'm going to beat you Billie Jean King realize what was at stake here.
She knew that what the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it. I mean it was sort of a joke match you know in many ways and then it wasn't because right exactly she won and and then that it's her humorous way it changed the flow of history. Well it did didn't it I mean she says that generally speaking women's self confidence was lifted up in a way and it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win really seeped into the history.
And she really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self and he was such a braggadocio and he was going to win and he was going to win and he was going to win and and that made it even more delicious the fact that she just played the game and she played him and killed him in three straight sets. And I asked her does she feel equal to men and she says she feels equal to men but that the world doesn't feel that way.
What has been your experience as a woman in a world where men are in charge. And from generation I would say that one thing in the beginning I just went along with it. I mean it just I accepted that and you know what I want to do I went as a premade. Well all I had to do in the south at that time in the 50s was say I was going to go to med school and they'd say well no women don't go to med school and I said oh okay.
So I mean that's that shows you that that I was whatever they said was fine and it's it's only. I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of sideswiped by by feminism the feminist movement in other words it sort of happened to us we didn't well people like Billie Jean King made it happen but what most of us were sort of living living with the reality of it and sort of keeping. Keeping our skills and our power to ourselves so women with other women could be.
Do all kinds of things but it let a man enter the room and it was a very charged different different atmosphere and describe what that means like how is it charge and how is it different women the women were sort of the the generators when they were together and talking but if a man came in there was a kind of a giving over.
It's like oh well yeah what we have to say what do you have to say what do you think that's what's really important and then in so many instances even now in a room it'll be the men that what I mean for a woman to be heard in a room sometimes even is is like. People sort of sit back and I mean it's it's sort of noticed not so much now maybe because of course we fail.
Maybe now mom maybe now I mean I'm certainly aware of that you know I'm certainly aware of the fact that if like in a in a writers room for example. Mail writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily I mean I realize that's a big generalization of course it's not always the case but it's funny how it's sort of that in equity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that.
Poisonous without are even realizing it I think that's really a wonderful way to put it and you know what's interesting is that when you get older and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men yeah and they are taking charge I mean they they do they take charge and they don't think too much about it I mean it's just like.
I've sort of been waiting always I've always done this or I've been waiting to do this or they it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped. And they're just waiting for the guys to die and then they're going to.
Well that's one way but you know one thing that I'm excited about you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she truly was iconic is iconic I mean yes the figure that represents so much right turning correct being and she she seemed to have that like a motor in her that was just going to go you know she's got the life force in her and I I say there's a woman that is used it.
All of her life and for the greater good by the way well thanks to her for you know women getting paid in athletics now thanks for getting looked up to in athletics. Of a women in athletics period even you know back in the day the only professional sport women could play was golf yeah right that was it can play any sport professionally I e be paid for it and by the way she loves that I call you mommy.
Oh because she calls her mom or call her mother's past way now but she called her mom mommy and her dad daddy just like we do. I love that there's something so cozy about that you know that's what I said to her she says it's like a giant hug. It is it is and when you hear mommy you know like when you hear I don't know what your boys call you but when you call me mommy yeah or mama yeah right it's just it's too wonderful it's too wonderful so yeah keep it up for all for everything.
I'm 100% mommy I always will. All right mama I'm going to say goodbye to you I love you thank you I love you too honey. There's more wiser than me with lemon ought to premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show subscribe now in Apple podcasts follow the show at wiser than me on Instagram TikTok and Facebook to wiser than me as a production of lemon auto media created and hosted by me Julia Louis Dreyfus this show is produced by Chrissy Pease
Jamila Zara Williams Alex McCohen and O. H. Lopez Brad Hall is a consulting producer Rachel Neil is VP of new content and our S.V.P. of Weekly content and production is Steve Nelson executive producers are Paula Kaplan Stephanie Whittles wax Jessica Cordova Kramer and me the show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music special thanks to
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